Dancer's digestive system
She has arthritis, frequently gets diarreah and yeast infections in her ears, and her weight is always up and down. Right now she is too thin, she has had almost constant diarreah for months. The fecals (several, at different times) were negative, she doesn't have anything that tests can find but has been treated anyway for a few things to rule them out. She's been dewormed for everything, she was on a 3 week course of metro, she was on a prescription low res canned food for 6 weeks etc... There are no skin issues so no allergies are suspected, coat is ok, thyroid test was normal. The low res food seemed to make things worse, so had her on a few foods to see if any helped and none did so I'm starting over with her. I bought a bunch of chicken quarters and boiled them, picked all the meat out and blended it to a puree along with a few tablespoons of pumpkin and added it to cooked rice and made up enough containers of it for several days. I think it amounts to about the meat off of not quite one chicken quarter and a cup or so of rice in each dish. I'm not sure how much to feed her or for how long, or if the meat/rice ratio is ok. I'm also giving her a vitamin supplement since this diet is obviously not going to meet all her nutritional needs. She needs to gain at least 7 lbs I'd say. I'm going to just put her back on pro plan puppy chicken and rice once we get the diarreah stopped. What I want to know is what has worked for you guys. I know there are LOTS of oes who have had tummy issues.... what worked for you? For how long with the chicken and rice and no dog food? |
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| Have you done an intestinal biopsy? It may well be an inflammatory bowel disease.
As to your question, each dog will react differently, and depending on the underlying cause. |
Poor Dancer...  |
| I have been through this with Marls .He is 3 years old and he weighs 58llbs .
I kept going to the vets with constant upset tum,eye/ear infections .When he was 2 he was really bad with diarrhea /blood and mucus and the weight was falling off him . Marls was now diagnosed with colitus and he was put on a chicken and rice/pasta diet for 3 weeks. I told the vet that i wanted allergy tests doing .The vet said he didn't think it was an allergy as his skin and coat were ok but i still said i wanted them doing.When the tests came back they showed Marley was allergic to Beef. Marls went on a kibble Salmon and Potato diet .He was fine with this for a couple of months then he would have a upset tum for a couple of days then he would be fine again.On the kibble he would poop alot(5 or 6 times a day) and he wasn't gaining any weight in fact the weight was still coming off him.So i started to look at different diets for him. Then last December Mitch (my other OES) got cancer and after reading up on lymphoma i put Mitch on the cancer diet which is a raw based diet.Mitch loved the new diet and Marley would of rather ate Mitches food than his. So I started Marley on raw in January.Within 3 weeks his eye/ear infections had gone and haven't come back.He was also on stomach tablets from the vet .He now doesn't take these. He eats 1000g meat plus fruit/ veg daily (more than he has ever ate) and is slowly gaining weight. 
Plus we are down to 2 poops a day  |
SeaLords wrote: Have you done an intestinal biopsy? It may well be an inflammatory bowel disease.
You can do a blood test for IBD. If Dancer's problems are chronic, I would think there is something going on there that she needs help with. Has the vet talked about putting her on a prescription dog food? Hope you find a solution soon. |
| have you tried a raw diet? |
| Actually, the most common type of IBD (Lymphocytic/Plasmacytic) requires an endoscopy and biopsies of the digestive tract to be definitively diagnosed. The second most common type (Eosinophilic) can often be diagnosed by blood work.
Dancer's symptoms sound alot like Oscar's. He has L/P IBD. We did the endoscopy when he was 10 months old, after a round-robin of blood work, fecal floats, food switches, etc. He also did poorly on the lo-res, as well as every other food with beef, chicken or lamb. Oscar never had skin issues either, until last year when he started getting drug resistant infections. After Oscar's diagnosis, he went on prednisone, which calmed his digestive system down immediately. I hate the long term damage pred can do, but basically there wouldn't be a long term for Oscar to worry about without it. We also discovered that he can tolerate venison kibble better than any other protein sources, so that's what he eats. Please PM me if you have any questions about Oscar's experiences with IBD. Hope Dancer is feeling better soon. 
Laurie and Oscar |
| The vet did put her on a prescription low residue diet, as well as a supplement called Fortiflora, which is basically just probiotics but specifically for dogs digestive systems. Neither made any difference at all, in fact she seemed worse and lost weight more quickly on it so after six weeks I quit feeding it to her.
I have not tried a raw diet, and probably wouldn't. I would think the last thing she needs in her gut is an opportunity for more bacteria, plus it grosses me out so I wouldn't feed raw unless I absolutely had to. |
the bacteria isn't really an isue with the dogs, they are kind of made to eat raw food  I only asked because it really made a difference with our boy, but it sounds like this girl has much more severe issues. |
| Sorry, forgot to log in before, so I am the "Guest" above, talking about Oscar.
My holistic vet, as well as my regular vet agree that Oscar is NOT a good candidate for a raw diet, based upon his immune issues (IBD included). They do not think that his digestive system can handle the increased bacteria load in unprocessed food. So Willowsprite, I would also be concerned about that, given Dancer's current issues. Laurie and Oscar |
| IBD does sound like what we're dealing with. After the last rounds of tests/meds/foods etc both the vet and I think any further tests could be useless with everything in her system that we've tried.
I'm going to keep her on the chicken/pumpkin puree and rice with the vitamin supplement for at least a few days and see if it helps at all and then schedule another visit to the vet to test for IBD. I'm just not sure how much to feed her... she's a tiny dog to begin with, a good weight for her is about 45 lbs, she is only 38 right now. She's skinny, and you can feel her ribs, but not so bad that you can see them, and she is shaved right down. She LOVES the stuff I'm feeding her right now, she had some last night and this morning. Today her poop is still what I would call diarreah, but one small difference maybe is that she could control it and held it til she got outside. Could be a fluke or a small improvement... don't know. |
Oscar's Mom wrote: Sorry, forgot to log in before, so I am the "Guest" above, talking about Oscar.
My holistic vet, as well as my regular vet agree that Oscar is NOT a good candidate for a raw diet, Laurie and Oscar Well most vets are not nutritionally minded. One of the first questions I asked my vet when I was interviewing him was what he felt about a raw diet (he doesn't object ). One emergancy vet tried to diagnose Morgan's pancreatitis as salmonella even though studies show dogs aren't affected by slamonella in the same way as humans and their systems sort of negate it.
Not trying ot change your mind on your chosen course of action, just want to point out for others that vets don't actually support a raw diet, which may have something to do with the amount of money pet food companies donate to veterinary schools  
Hope Dancer's issues are easilly sorted out. |
We treat Frank's IBD with Purina HA dry food. It has done wonders but it's pretty expensive..  |
VerveUp wrote: We treat Frank's IBD with Purina HA dry food. It has done wonders but it's pretty expensive..
Looks like the HA formula is a vegetarian food for allergies, it has extremely low protein and fat levels though which I don't think would be ideal for Dancer because she's so thin.,.. doesn't say how many cals per cup... Purina makes the Fortiflora she was on too, which she is currently off of so I can see the effects of just chicken, rice and pumpkin have. If there isn't any improvement by tomorrow I'll add the fortiflora back in maybe.... I think after a few days of no drugs or other foods in her system the vet will be able to get more accurate results with whatever tests we run. |
| I also found a great site that has helped somewhat with knowing how much to feed etc...
http://www.dog-health-guide.org/ricefor ... ndricediet For a dog her size (at a healthy weight) she needs about 1200 cals a day so I'm aiming for about 1500 a day to help her gain but not too quickly. From what I can figure out that works out to about 3 cups of the chicken/pumpkin puree mixed with 3 cups of cooked rice, I'm dividing it into three meals for now. She's had three meals of it so far, and her last poop this afternoon was still diarreah, but it actually formed a pile (TMI I know LOL) so I think that's a small improvement. |
| While I agree that many vets are not nutritionally minded, my vets, especially my holistic vet, are open to raw diets. All of my vets have clients who feed raw and do very well with it, so when they all tell me that Oscar is not a good candidate for raw food, I know that they have weighed the pros and cons for our situation. Hopefully, Willowsprite has a progressive vet who will weigh all of the options for Dancer, including the appropriateness of a raw diet.
Kerry, I do agree with you about the pet food industry. I know most vets looooove Hill's Science Diet, and it's the first thing they recommend if a pet has allergies or tummy troubles. My vets aren't so big on Hill's, and the only one we tried for Oscar was the lo-residue, with hydrolyzed proteins. Oscar did horribly on it. It's always healthy to be aware of exactly who is footing the bill, and their chosen agenda, so that we can understand if a conflict of interest exists, like with vets and certain corporations. (When hearing the results of a study, my first question is always "Who paid for this?".) I tend to be skeptical and ask lots of questions, so I must do it nicely as I think my vets still like me.
Laurie and Oscar |
| Do you have a "Hololistic Vet" near you? Or a naturopath?
If so might be worth taking Dancer for a consultation for some sort of diet plan to help her. With what you are feeding her now is fine cooked by you so you know exactly what is going into her, no commercial food at all and maybe also look at a supplement like "Missing Link" to help her system and also supplement it as well.
Really hard getting it right but I would not have her on any commercial dog food at all just things like cooked chicken, rice, pasta, soaked oats or barley and vegies, fish even things like starting to introduce raw meats (beef/lamb etc some organ meats as well) as her bowel settles down. People swear by raw and natural feeding with dogs that have had issues in their diets in the past. |
| I am a human sufferer of IBD (I have Chrohns Disease) and I would recommend the following:
First give her gut a rest. For 24 hours feed her nothing, just give her water. Then think of the human BRAT (Bananas, Rice Apple juice and Tea) diet. For the next 48 hours I will give her mashed bananas mixed with white rice ONLY (no brown or wild rice, much harder to digest). Then move on the the "white diet", turkey, chicken and other white foods (in humans white bread, white rice, etc). I would also feed very small amounts (much easier to digest). If you see an improvement with things gradually start increasing the amounts you are feeding and start adding in other food items. I would also be supplementing her with appropriate vitamins. Liquid vitamins are more absorbed then tablets. With IBD malnutrition can be a big problem. I am always battling various vitamin deficiencies. Dancer has my sympathies. Good luck! Kathie |
| IBD does not allow nutrients to be absorbed properly through the intestine. The Purina HA is specially formulated to give the IBD dogs the nutrients they need.
If, for some reason, Dancer does have IBD, she may have a hard time digesting any types of foods. |
| Laurie? Did one of your vets recommend bovine colostrum for Oscar and his tummy troubles? We give if for a different reason but I think it's also recommended for some forms of intestinal problems... you might check into it.
Do you remember the amount of food Dancer was getting when she was at an optimal weight along with the brand? Maybe you can come up with a good daily calorie total that way too. We had to switch one of ours to Science Diet l/d and I had to do the calorie conversion. I accidentally stuffed her the first day by following the recommended feeding on the label 
The calories required depends on her unique metabolism and how she's processing the food. She needs more calories but not too many that it becomes another cause for diarrhea. I thoroughly believe in using a good probiotic and digestive enzyme with each meal too. We use this one- http://firstchoicenaturals.com/Index/sh ... d-74?gid=4 I also agree about getting an opinion from a holistic/homeopathic vet if you just can't get her stable with a conventional vet. I hope Dancer will be feeling better soon. |
| No suggestions, just wanted to say poor Dancer and I hope you get her fixed soon. |
| Just wanted to say I'm so sorry Dancer is not well and hope everything works out |
| Well, this morning still diarreah and a bit of blood in it, the fecals were all negative so I believe the blood is simply because her system is raw... poor baby.
I added the fortiflora back into the food today, still just chicken and rice for now. She seems to act like she is feeling a bit better though.... but I think that is just because for now she is away from the other dogs and just in the livingroom with us or in her crate in the livingroom. Willy is in here with her but not uncrated at the same time, she's a little grumpy about his puppy antics and I don't want him, or her to get hurt with rough playing. He is so funny though, if he is out and she is crated he lines up his toys in front of her crate and then whimpers at her as if he's wondering why she won't play. LOL Then, he was afraid to get them back because she growled at him, so I got his stuffed sheep back for him and he promptly lifted his leg and peed on it! I've never seen a pup so young do that! |
| I guess it's positive to hear she is doing a little better. I hope we hear something better each day.
Willowsprite wrote: He is so funny though, if he is out and she is crated he lines up his toys in front of her crate and then whimpers at her as if he's wondering why she won't play. LOL Then, he was afraid to get them back because she growled at him, so I got his stuffed sheep back for him and he promptly lifted his leg and peed on it! I've never seen a pup so young do that!
Mine does the same thing! It's hilarious. Yuki hates him, but when HE is crated, she will lay next to the cage and not move. Weird relationship! |
| Jaci, Oscar is on colostrum as well as probiotics, in addition to a maintenance dose of metronidazole (as opposed to a higher, therapuetic dose) to manage his IBD. Oh, and he takes Pepcid AC.
Kathie's point about giving the gut a rest is a good one. Willowsprite, I know you are trying to put weight on Dancer, but red blood in the stool is indicative of extreme colitis, which could be caused by many things, IBD among them. Sometimes the only way to get a grip on this kind of inflammation is to allow the digestive system some down time. Oscar had a horrible IBD flare-up last year, much like you are describing with Dancer. He was with us in Florida, so we had to find a vet down there who could do the blood work to rule out pancreatitis before my vet could put Oscar on prednisone. It took a couple of days to sort everything out, and in that time, my vets suggested that I feed him rice only, as his normal diet is venison and rice kibble. He did HORRIBLY on just the rice. His diarrhea was so much worse. We ended up fasting him for 24 hours, and by then, we had the blood results and started him on prednisone. We started seeing positive changes in his digestive system immediately, and within three days, Oscar's stool was solid. It's possible that Dancer's system is so inflamed that any food will cause her discomfort, even rice. It's also possible that she is sensitive to chicken. (Oscar can't tolerate chicken, beef, bison or lamb.) I wish I had some other ideas for you, as I know how stressful this is. Hopefully, your vet can help you get some answers.
Laurie and Oscar |
| Thanks for all the replies, and especially your insight Laurie, it helps also to be able to go over others' experiences with my vet, since oes in particular seem to be predisposed to these kinds of things.
I really do hesitate to take her off food completely with her being so thin.... I'll talk to my vet about it though. I know prednisone can be a miracle drug, but we plan to do a test for addisons on her this week which has to be done with no other meds in her system, especially steroids. I'm thinking if the addisons test is negative we will likely start her on prednisone. The addisons test can be done in conjunction with blood tests to look for indicators of IBD, I'd rather do that than the biopsy which requires general anesthesia. I'm just so scared it might be cancer or something |
| I wonder about liquid prednisone for Dancer? The tablets can be very hard on the gut. A woman I work with has Crohns and does much better on the liquid.
Prednisone tabs are very cheap at the pharmacy (my vet charges way too much), so I'm sure the liquid is more expensive. they use the liquid for kids with asthma, so every pharmacy should have it. |
| I just wanted to add that the first thing the dr always says is nothing by mouth for 24 hours to give the gut a chance to heal. We also use a good probiotic and colostrum. |
| Hmmmmmm, Addison's Disease. That might explain everything, as you said that Dancer has always struggled with other issues. It does tend to crop up in female dogs during "middle age". (Oscar was just tested for Addison's in May, as he goes from one immune issue to another, but he came back negative. For now. My vet wants to test him again in six months.)
Does Dancer have a normal appetite? Is her tummy rumbling, or do all of her digestive issues seem to happen in the "back end"? If so, it might not matter what you feed her, as her system is just in a constant uproar. I understand your reluctance to stop all food, and would only try it if your vet supported the idea. Poor puppy. Willowsprite, if you have any questions, feel free to PM me. We've been dealing with Oscar's tummy issues since he was 10 weeks old, so I know how difficult it is to pinpoint cause and effect. Laurie and Oscar, the Digestively Challenged |
| Just talked to the vet, he doesn't think no food is a good idea for her...
I have an appointment for Friday at 2:15pm to go over her and run a few blood tests as well as the ACTH test for addisons. He said to stick with the diet I am feeding her for now and give it a few more days to see if it makes any difference. |
| You probably already have it but here's a link to Addisons and symptoms-
http://www.addisondogs.com/addisons/whatis.html Good luck at the vet appointment. |
| Thinking good thoughts for Dancer's vet visit on Friday. (Bring a good book.....the Addison's test takes awhile..... )
Please keep us posted. Laurie and Oscar |
| Keeping our fingers and paws crossed that the vet has some answers for you on Friday. Hugs to all of you and big wet sloppy kisses for Dancer from Oakley and Sydney. |
We all send Dancer hugs and sloppy kisses!  Willoughby is particularly concerned as he has a sensitive tummy and can imagine how she feels!
Willoughby's Mom |
| I am hoping you get some good news or at least some clear answers from the Vet. It sounds like quite an ordeal for both of you. |
| Well, it was a long afternoon....
They tested Dancer for pretty much everything we could think of, xrays of her knees, hips and abdomen, complete blood profile etc... Good news: not addisons, not cancer, not an infection or virus, not parasites etc... The blood panels were so normal that he said we could almost assume it's not technically IBD either, but with her symptoms we're treating it as if it is. He said to keep feeding her what I have been, 40% chicken, 40% rice (noting though that it cannot be instant rice) and 20% pumpkin. She's also on prednisone for 6 days and I'm supposed to call him Wednesday and let him know if there are any changes and we go from there. A biopsy is not something I want to do because of the anesthesia risk, so for now we'll play it safe. He said if they did the biopsy and it was confirmed IBD this is how we would treat it anyway. I'm hoping the prednisone will be the miracle pill it has been for so many.,... she gets her first dose tonight. |
| Good news so far stacey so glad to hear Addisons was ruled out.
You should see a huge difference with the predisone with her, a short term thing till the bowel settles down. They get so red raw in their with chronic diarreah so it should help immensley. Kelsey when little went through same sort of thing, was not IBS we did not know what it was, took a long time to get her back to normal. Predisone was given to her in the end and we had to go back to a bland diet and over periods of months start bringing in one thing at a time back to a full normal diet. I had to take her to just something she had not had before, Kangaroo and Potato and then start introducing one thing at a time to see if any triggers there. Nothing so we put it down to over the months as all settled in the bowel just red raw inflammation which the predisone settled right down. I also had a Colonscope biopsy done on her just to see what was going on, nothing could be found growth wise or nasty wise, only extreme scouring and inflammation in the bowel when the report on the biopsy came back. Took 6 months to bring her back to a normal varied diet. We think she picked up a bug at a show which started all the problems with chronic diarreah and just flared from there to cause a longer term problem. Anti-biotics did nothing to help in the longer term, the predisone was a miracle and used short term to help bring things back to normal in her bowel. Keeping fingers crossed for dancer and you. |
| We have been thinking about you guys today, knowing Dancer was going to have her tests done. We will keep our fingers crossed that the pred does its magic and calms her tummy down. What dosage is she on?
I understand about not wanting to do the endoscopy, especially while she's in such a fragile state. Oscar's blood work always came back normal as well, which is why we eventually did the scope and biopsy. Hopefully she will respond well to the pred and will start to feel better immediately. Lisa makes a good point about the food switch. The pred might work, but if Dancer still has issues, she might be sensitive to chicken and/or rice and need a new food that contains a protein she hasn't been exposed to before. Kangaroo worked for Lisa, and venison has worked for us. Just a thought if Dancer still has tummy troubles........ In addition to pred, Oscar also takes a maintenance dose (500 mg, 2 X per day) of Metronidazole to help balance the good flora in his gut. When he has IBD flare-ups, we increase that to a therapeutic dose (750 mg, 2 X per day). It seems to help. I'm sure your vet has mentioned this, but yet another thing to keep in mind.....try to minimize the number of things you're changing at any given time. If you do a bunch of things at once, and have success or failure, you really have a hard time figuring out what worked, and what didn't. With Oscar, it's always a balancing act. I never switch food and give heartworm at the same time, or add or subtract a drug and switch food, etc. Sometimes you don't have a choice, but just another tip from someone who has been down this road too many times. Thinking good thoughts for you...........
Laurie and Oscar |
| We have tried different foods over the years for Dancer, salmon and oatmeal, duck and sweet potato... nothing makes a difference so we're going to stick with the basics for now....
She's only 34.5 lbs so her prednisone dose will go up as her weight does, she needs to gain about 7 lbs. For now she gets 7.5 mg twice a day. |
Good luck!! I hope Dancer's tummy gets better fast so she feels lots better.  |
| Oh my! I haven't read through all of your posts, but as soon as I see allergy and diarrhea issues I immediately think of what we've been doing for Foz the past year. It has made a world of different and has helped tremendously. We had gone to a holistic vet who recommended these items. While these items cost a bit more, they have been well worth it in the long run. Might be worth a try for Dancer.
Foz eats the Wellness Core Ocean variety. We tried switching him to chicken and the soft poops came back. http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/dog_well ... index.html Also, he receives Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes and Probiotics. It's a simple powder and you sprinkle a smidge on the food. I was being cheap and thought we could stop it recently. Well, within a week, I swear his poops were softer again, so we're back on it. http://www.cart4sites.com/Merchant2/mer ... _Code=Merr |
| I guess I was hoping for an almost instant miracle... she seems to be feeling better, she's "dancing" again LOL and looks brighter and happier, but still has diarreah.
She has had 2 doses of pred so far... |
| I know this is an assinine question, but have you given rice water? |
Ron wrote: I know this is an assinine question, but have you given rice water?
No... she is too thin to not give food. This is a chronic problem not an acute one, so the usual tricks don't work, I think I tried rice water a year or so ago, no effect. Immodium has no effect, neither does pepto. Metro made it worse, she's been dewormed for every possible parasite even though she tested negative for everything. Prednisone is basically the only thing we haven't tried. |
| If I remember right, it took a couple of days of pred for Oscar's system to right itself during the last IBD flare-up. I could gradually see a difference and a decrease in frequency, where his stool went from diarrhea to the texture of soft serve ice cream (sorry folks.....I will never look at a chocolate cone the same way again.... ), and finally solid.
Poor Dancer. Is she having to pee all the time? Oscar's been lucky that his IBD has been controlled by a low dose for his body size. He took 15-20 mg at the most, and now takes 5 mg per day. (He's 113 lbs.). 7.5 mg for Dancer should kick the inflammation way down. Fingers still crossed........ Laurie and Oscar |
| Lauries right too with the pred, same as Kelsey took 3-4 days to start making a difference as laurie described to turn it from watery to soft serve icecream and beyond
Keeping fingers crossed for dancer still.
Laurie I forgot that too, Kelsey was also at the time on Metronidazole as well as the pred. So long ago when I went through it I forgot she was on that also. |
| Maybe I'm just being hopeful but she hasn't pooped since this morning.... I've been watching for the next one.... what a way to spend a weekend, waiting for your dog to poop so you can examine it |
Willowsprite wrote: Maybe I'm just being hopeful but she hasn't pooped since this morning.... I've been watching for the next one.... what a way to spend a weekend, waiting for your dog to poop so you can examine it
I get to do it professionally (as a nurse) and recreationally (for the dogs). That really is sad.  |
| Hoping that Dancer is on the mend |
| Hmmm..Foz can't take any Prednisone derivative as it gives him diarrhea and runs within 24 hours. Are you sure it's not contributing to Dancer's diarrhea issue? I wish Foz could take just a little smidge or a shot to get the edge off of his itchiness. It's a double edge sword |
Well, she's had 4 doses of pred now, and this morning her poop had a shape! LOL Still not normal, but not runny anymore!   |
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The miracle of steroids. I hope she'll be doing much better soon.  |
Willowsprite wrote: Well, she's had 4 doses of pred now, and this morning her poop had a shape! LOL Still not normal, but not runny anymore! Yay!!!!! so happy.... I hope things continue to improve! |
| Good luck, I hope things keep looking up.
So that you dont have to keep looking down. |
Willowsprite wrote: Well, she's had 4 doses of pred now, and this morning her poop had a shape! LOL Still not normal, but not runny anymore!
YAY Happy poopie dance 
We are a strange lot when it comes to the motions of our dogs & being on poop watch
Keeping fingers crossed still but sounds like it is making a difference for her. |
| Oh, good news on the poop! I hope this will help to jump start her back to health. poor puppy. |
| Rice may not be the answer. I had started Langley on rice with his food and it didn't help. My Holistic vet said he has been finding more and more rice may not do the trick. So I tried cooked oatmeal. The funny thing is a decide to give the rest of the rice to Laika and then after two years diarrhea free she got diarrhea. Both of them have had great poops ever since. I wasn't feeding Laika any grains but he thought she should get some something about the liver. If you have any questions please pm me. |
| My vet said whether raw or cooked (makes no difference nutritionally really) if not feeding commercial food the diet should be 40% meat, 40% grain (rice or oatmeal) and 20% vegetables. He said a full vitamin supplement shouldn't be necessary, but adding some vitamin c and a b complex tablet meant for people can't hurt and may be of some benefit. Probiotics also, in the form of yogurt, or tabs meant for people or dogs, doesn't really matter.
My vet also said the biggest mistake people feeding home cooked or raw diets make, especially for a puppy, is lack of minerals for bone growth. A puppy can't digest bone even if he eats it the way an adult can so he suggested adding bone meal to a pups diet if it's homemade. |
| Great to hear Dancer is feeling better |
Willowsprite wrote: My vet said whether raw or cooked (makes no difference nutritionally really) if not feeding commercial food the diet should be 40% meat, 40% grain (rice or oatmeal) and 20% vegetables. He said a full vitamin supplement shouldn't be necessary, but adding some vitamin c and a b complex tablet meant for people can't hurt and may be of some benefit. Probiotics also, in the form of yogurt, or tabs meant for people or dogs, doesn't really matter.
My vet also said the biggest mistake people feeding home cooked or raw diets make, especially for a puppy, is lack of minerals for bone growth. A puppy can't digest bone even if he eats it the way an adult can so he suggested adding bone meal to a pups diet if it's homemade. Of course with Raw you need to add supplements, but I don't believe grains are necessary - many dog foods (prepared) come in no grain formulas now. My dogs seem much better off with no grains (and no gassy farts in the bedroom at night |
| We're so glad to hear that Dancer's on the mend. We have a love/hate relationship with pred, but right now, we're loving that it's helping your girl!
The fact that she's not pooping as often is definitely a good thing. (After all of Oscar's problems, the minute examination of dog doo-doo happens to be one of my specialties....... )
Fingers still crossed....... Laurie and Oscar |
Oscar's Mom wrote: (After all of Oscar's problems, the minute examination of dog doo-doo happens to be one of my specialties.......
) Laurie and Oscar Laurie, I'm just wondering -- how does one list that special skill on one's resume? 
Good news re Dancer, indeed.
Kristine |
| ^^^^^^^ With kid gloves.....................
Laurie and Oscar |
| Just a quick update.... not really any change... not exactly diarreah anymore but still no where near normal....
She is gaining weight though so obviously she is now able to absorb at least most of the nutrition in her food. I'll be talking to the vet later today so I'm wondering if a higher dose of prednisone might help? |
whenever I go on Prednisone I gain weight - even if I cut way back on what I eat, so I don't know if its true test? In theory that weight also comes off very quickly when you go off the pred - in theory  |
kerry wrote: whenever I go on Prednisone I gain weight - even if I cut way back on what I eat, so I don't know if its true test? In theory that weight also comes off very quickly when you go off the pred - in theory
Yes, same for me when I've been on pred. I've always been on really high doses though, Dancer I think is on a fairly low dose. She's peeing like crazy and has a great appetite, which both are side effects of pred also. |
| Any updates on Dancer? Hoping for good news........
Laurie and Oscar |
| On Weds. the vet said to up the dose a little, haven't really seen any change though.... I'm really disappointed, I really thought this was going to be the answer. I've tried everything else so really not sure what to do now.... |
| How disappointing. Hopefully the higher dose will get things under control. Is she at least maintaining her weight right now?
She could still be reacting to chicken and/or rice. Has your vet considered trying other protein sources? I know you don't want to mess with too many things at once, but maybe a food switch would help. Also, if she has digestive problems already, you might want to avoid raw vegetables for the time being. Here's how my holistic vet explained it to me. Complex carbs are mostly digested in the small intestine. Humans, as we're omnivores, have a proportionally longer small intestine than dogs, which are primarily carnivores. A dog's system is not set up to digest complex carbs that are not partially broken down. (Most of the complex carbs that wolves eat are the ones partially digested in the tummy of their prey.) Therefore, my vet recommends that we cook Oscar's veggies to break them down a bit. (As it turns out, the endoscopy found that Oscar's IBD is in his small intestine, so he can't handle any veggies, raw or cooked.) This might all be hooey, but it sounded good to me!
C'mon Dancer......you have to get better....... Laurie and Oscar |
| We went to a specialist who prescribed Tylin ( spelling) powder. It comes as a powder type you ,ix in with food twice a day. However, it has a very bitter taste and my dog woudn't eat the food if the Tylin was in it. So, I fill capsules ( very tedious) and give him one capsule in cheeese twice a day before each meal. It has worked wonders.
Diane |
Ashley wrote: We went to a specialist who prescribed Tylin ( spelling) powder. It comes as a powder type you ,ix in with food twice a day. However, it has a very bitter taste and my dog woudn't eat the food if the Tylin was in it. So, I fill capsules ( very tedious) and give him one capsule in cheeese twice a day before each meal. It has worked wonders.
Diane It's Tylan, an antibiotic used very often with livestock. We used it routinely with our Quail in their water to prevent bowel related issues with them in the flight pen. I have used it a few times with our dogs - and yes it has the most NASTY bitter taste. i accidently got it in my mouth once - I see why my dogs hate it.
I used to pack it in a pill pocket, but that didn't work after the 1st time (big surprise). I have had the same thought - packing it in capsules!! Now I put in in a pill pocket or a food item and bolus it down their throats. |
| Ok well, she's off the prednisone now and back to liquid poop. Panda has also decided to attack her every chance she gets, so the dogs sense something is not right too.
I went and bought Merrick sensitive stomach stuff, buffalo and venison and sweet potato but no corn and none of the meats I've tried previously. I almost bought the dick van pattens vegetarian stuff, but I still think she's too thin to go to such a low calorie and low fat food. I didn't bother to do a gradual switch to the merrick, I figure it can't get worse so hopefully within a few days there will be an improvement. |
| Stacy did you just stop the dose of Pred or did you gradually decrease the dose till she was off it?
Just wondering as just stopping cold turkey as they say can cause a reaction. When kelsey was on it, we had to wean her off it slowly by gradually reducing the amount each day over a period of a week till she was off it completely. Hope the new food works, such a worry trying to figure out what is causing it. Hugs for dancer hope she improves soon. xxLisa |
| You always have to wean off it, stopping abruptly can cause the adrenal glands to fail. Those glands gradually lower production when replaced with a steroid, by reducing gradually you encourage the body to begin producing it's own again as the steroid decreases. |
| I wish you had better news. This must be so frustrating and sad. I hope you figure out something that works for her. Poor girl. Poor you. |
| I can't remember how they dose Prednisone. My dad had asthma/emphysema, nephew a bone marrow transplant but both were years ago. The vet upped the pred dose on the 28th and dosing was completed with the return of liquid stool by the 4th? Would a continuous low dose course be of any help? Anti-diarrhea meds don't help at all- Kaopectate, Imodium, etc.?
Sometimes a second set of eyes reviewing a case can pick up on something that was missed or just didn't "click". When my vets are stumped, they've talked with the internists at Idexx, and specialists at Michigan State University. Is this an option? Remember the homeopathic vet down in Louisiana that I mentioned? He put Panda on a supplement a few weeks ago. My conventional vet later told me it's one she also takes. Early signs are promising. Much less gas, appears to be drinking less water (I have to repeat a specific gravity test to tell for sure). She's dealt with a high urinary ph problem ever since we adopted her. I reduced the dose of her urinary acidifier by 1/2 just over a week ago and her ph this morning was 6.25. It's still to early to tell but symptoms appear to be easing. I hope you can find someone who can help Dancer. |
| I don't see enough of a benefit to risk a continuous course... there have been several vets looking into all this, including Dr Dodds.
The hardest part is none of the test results are giving us any clues, and even though she may have an intolerance to some foods (not sure if it's some foods or all foods, so far it's all ) we aren't seeing evidence of an actual allergy.
She had one meal of the merrick's last night, straight switch, no gradual, and this morning her poop is not liquid but back to pudding consistency so who knows... maybe buffalo and venison is the answer.... Also, immodium and pepto bismol have had no effect at all... Glad you're seeing some improvement with your girl. |
| By the way, I've never seen a dog so enthusiastic about food before, she absolutely LOVES the merrick stuff.... |
| Poor Dancer. I was hoping for the pred to work.....
Oscar is very high maintenance when it comes to food, so I know your pain. Venison is the only protein so far that seems to work, and I'm hoping it is the same for Dancer. (Chicken, beef and lamb are out, but we have never tried rabbit or kangaroo.) We also tried bison, in Solid Gold Wolf Cub when Oscar was a puppy, but it made his diarrhea worse, and my vet surmised it may be too similar in protein structure to beef, which we knew he couldn't tolerate. Also, none of the tests we ran showed that Oscar had an outright allergy to any of these foods, but yet, he certainly can't digest them properly. Maybe it is the same for Dancer. Soooooooo frustrating........ Laurie and Oscar |
| Well, I don't understand why Dancer was put off the prednisone when it was the only thing that made her better. Why not continue with the prednisone (by the way, what was the dosage she was in?) while trying to figure out a food she can handle? |
SeaLords wrote: Well, I don't understand why Dancer was put off the prednisone when it was the only thing that made her better. Why not continue with the prednisone (by the way, what was the dosage she was in?) while trying to figure out a food she can handle?
I'm not sure either... it didn't help much, only very slightly... steroids are not a great idea for long term unless absolutely necessary. She started out at 7.5 mg twice a day and then was upped to 10 mg twice a day. She only weighs 35 lbs. It still seems like a low dose to me, I suppose after a few days on the new food we might try the prednisone again, possibly at a higher dose, but for now the vet suggested no meds. |
| That's a very low dose indeed. Recommended dosages go up to three times what you've used. It's always better to begin with a high dose (and you have a situation that has been building up for several years ...) and then adjust the dose to a lower one depending on the response.
Frankly I wouldn't discard the prednisone so soon (specially after a not so perfect trial ...). Also, I wouldn't be trying commercial foods. Commercial foods have a miriad of ingredients, many not specified in the label. It's better to start with a simple diet (single protein source + single carbohydrate) and then go step by step, to see which ingredients she can tolerate. |
| Here is a very good article on treatment of IBD:
http://publications.royalcanin.com/renv ... on=8375065 |
| Since you're spending a lot of money on the Merrick, why not give the Purina HA a shot? It's been the miracle food for Frank for his IBD. |
VerveUp wrote: Since you're spending a lot of money on the Merrick, why not give the Purina HA a shot? It's been the miracle food for Frank for his IBD.
I will if I don't see any improvement by the end of the bag. The HA is really low in protein and fat, and the number one ingredient is corn starch.... |
Quote: The HA is really low in protein and fat, and the number one ingredient is corn starch....
Many of these prescription diets go against my healthy-dog-feeding ideas. I don't like the corn, high fat content I've found in some. But... I was waiting for confirmation on the unreadable ALT level on my Schip-mix. I declined the Science Diet l/d for exactly these reasons and followed Dr. Dodds' home cooked liver cleansing diet while we waited because surely the level couldn't be that high. I spoke with a friend who had great success when using the Science Diet l/d for liver disease... ALT was over 1,600 when diagnosed and the dog lived 8 additional years. So despite my food prejudice, I did accept the vet's recommendation to feed Science Diet l/d when her ALT level came back at 1,231 (107 is the high end of normal). It was down to 282 about 1 1/2 weeks ago... still high but coming down. We retest in another 1 1/2 weeks. If the vet feels it's ok, you might give one of these prescription foods a try to see if it just might agree better with Dancer's tummy. Maybe it would buy some time so you can eventually find a food that's closer to our feeding ideals. |
| ^^
Same thing happened when we fed our maltese SD l/d. Results came down to a normal range! |
6Girls wrote: Many of these prescription diets go against my healthy-dog-feeding ideas. I don't like the corn, high fat content I've found in some.
Yes, the problem is that many ideas, like yours, are based on beliefs and not in facts. Corn is one of the most "persecuted" ingredients when, in fact, there are no real data that says that corn is an evil or, as many "graduates in label reading" say, a "filler". Oats, for instance, are much worse than corn, but, hey, they are fashionable these days ... Prescription diets are formulated with solid reasoning behind them and they are TESTED. Maybe reading those labels, and knowing that they WORK, people stopped putting unreasonable ideas in their minds about dog food ingredients and formulas ... |
SeaLords wrote: Prescription diets are formulated with solid reasoning behind them and they are TESTED. Maybe reading those labels, and knowing that they WORK, people stopped putting unreasonable ideas in their minds about dog food ingredients and formulas ...
Perscription diets may work for some dogs, though you don't see many dogs out there grazing on much of what they put in them. And, no, corn is generally no worse than the rest of the carbohydrates. That doesn't mean I want to see any of them as the primary ingredient fed to a healthy dog. Being able to tolerate and optimal nutrition don't necessarily go hand in hand.
Prednisone works for some dogs. Doesn't mean it's inherently healthy for them. Desperate times call for desperate measures and you use what works. The bigger issue for us as breeders is that we need to focus our efforts on not producing these dogs so people, and dogs, don't have to live their lives struggling like this. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: The bigger issue for us as breeders is that we need to focus our efforts on not producing these dogs so people, and dogs, don't have to live their lives struggling like this. Kristine
Exactly. And let's hope that's what most of us are trying to do. |
Mad Dog wrote: And, no, corn is generally no worse than the rest of the carbohydrates. That doesn't mean I want to see any of them as the primary ingredient fed to a healthy dog. Being able to tolerate and optimal nutrition don't necessarily go hand in hand. I got curious, what do you feed your dogs? Mad Dog wrote: Prednisone works for some dogs. Doesn't mean it's inherently healthy for them. Prednisone is a drug. You only need drugs on sick dogs, and, yes, many drugs have side effects. As so many things in life, it is necessary to balance the pros and cons. Mad Dog wrote: The bigger issue for us as breeders is that we need to focus our efforts on not producing these dogs so people, and dogs, don't have to live their lives struggling like this.
Couldn't agree more |
SeaLords wrote: Mad Dog wrote: Prednisone works for some dogs. Doesn't mean it's inherently healthy for them. Prednisone is a drug. You only need drugs on sick dogs, and, yes, many drugs have side effects. As so many things in life, it is necessary to balance the pros and cons. Actually I think Prednisone is used to treat conditions not illnesses. |
Quote: Yes, the problem is that many ideas, like yours, are based on beliefs and not in facts. This is true however I was trying to coax Stacy into looking at all options when in a difficult place rather than being in her face about it. Sharing information about preset notions and then experiences. When you're talking about prescription diets, you can be talking a lifetime on a food. My opinion about corn and fat is based on my experience with prescription diet c/d. The dog developed a distinct smell about her after being on the food for a while. Rather offensive. The first three ingredients in c/d are- 1. Corn 2. Pork Fat (22% fat content) 3. Chicken By-Product Meal You can find the list here- http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/produc ... 4441760634 And before we get into the by-product debate, I've spoken with an MSU nutritionist so I know that technically it's just-another-protein-or-nutrient source. We had fed c/d to Panda when she arrived with recurrent UTIs and struvite crystals. She continued to have serious problems later found to be due to a persistent urachus which we had corrected during exploratory surgery. I won't even go into the big yeast problem on the feet or eyes will roll . A urinary ph imbalance remained after the surgery so we decided to search for different ways to control her condition. Do I think all corn is "evil"? Heck no, but I don't like it as a first ingredient for a dog that would need to be on the food for a lifetime. My approach to feeding dogs is a varied diet so mine get a little corn on occasion- http://oesusa.com/AboutU586.jpg Make no mistake... I will feed c/d again if there are no other options and it's found to work for her. But I'll also review other mfr's. products. Quote: Oats, for instance, are much worse than corn.
Always open to learn more through verified sources so please share links to this study. I have a vet that recommends rotating the grains with each batch of food (when we cook). From oatmeal (yup, it was the first one listed ), barley, bulgur, millet, spelt, wheat, white and brown rice, potatoes, etc. In our phone conversation he also mentioned grits (that would be corn).
So Stacy, I was just trying to encourage you to explore all options... even those we might not totally agree on for long term use. It might help your lovely Dancer's health to improve. |
kerry wrote: Actually I think Prednisone is used to treat conditions not illnesses. Sorry, what do you call "conditions" and what do you call an "illness"? An immune disease is a condition or a illness according to you? 6Girls wrote: Do I think all corn is "evil"? Heck no, but I don't like it as a first ingredient for a dog that would need to be on the food for a lifetime. Do you know that a "normal" dog food (say 26% protein, 16% fat) has more than 40% cereals (or potatos ...)? That makes cereals the biggest ingredient. Hills is the only pet food company that doesn't try to fool the clients, all the others simply throw sand to the eyes of people. I defy you to show me one food that uses a single cereal/cereal form and begins with meat/meat meal. 6Girls wrote: Always open to learn more through verified sources so please share links to this study.
This study is mine, through several years feeding a dog food with oats as the first cereal 8 dogs making the most gasy atmosphere that you can imagine, not very healthy to you if you are in the same compartment With corn as first cereal atmosphere is clear 
Anyway, here is some science: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/124 ... /2672S.pdf you can see that digestibility of dry matter in oats is much lower than in corn. Nutrients that arrive undigested in the large intestine are fermented ... |
| According to me, wouldn't be very informative, since i am not a researcher nor a medical professional. However, according to medical dictionary's what you call (auto)immune diseases are considered autoimmune disorders (my interpretation was condition).
Prednisone is used to treat conditions such as asthma and allergies,, as well as others. These are not illnesses. To make matters worse, some sources use the terms interchangeably, or an autoimmune disorder is conventionally called a disease (like Addison's disease) And BTW Your rudeness is neither appreciated nor especially helpful to someone looking for answers in an open discussion format. |
| Just to clear it up prednisone is a steroid and is used to treat inflammation, which is a symptom, could be from a condition or a disease. |
| I'll keep it brief because this is all way off topic-
Quote: I defy you to show me one food that uses a single cereal/cereal form and begins with meat/meat meal. Defy me to show you? Confrontational, eh?Quote: This study is mine, through several years feeding a dog food with oats as the first cereal Very Happy 8 dogs making the most gasy atmosphere that you can imagine Ah... so you too are speaking from limited personal experience. But you do have one more dog than me. You waited several years to switch foods despite this level of bad gas in all your dogs? You're braver than me Quote: Oats, for instance, are much worse than corn, but, hey, they are fashionable these days ...
Interesting article about those 7 to 9 dogs they experimented with. Thanks for sharing. |
6Girls wrote: Defy me to show you? Confrontational, eh?Not at all. Everybody has been fooled by certain food companies that say that a food that begins with meat (but after that has 2 or 3 cereals ...) is better than one that begins with cereals (regardless of the number of cereals present). No food with 26-28% protein and 16-18% fat can have less than 40% cereals and more than 35% meat, it's a simple case of making some calculus. Hills is the only food maker that doesn't bother using a single cereal in their foods, and show to all that dog food, all foods (even the ones that begin with meat ...) are cereal (or cereal + potato, that's the fancy now) based. If you don't want to pick up your calculator, the challenge is still up 6Girls wrote: Interesting article about those 7 to 9 dogs they experimented with. Thanks for sharing.
Don't like science, hey? OK, I'll be waiting for your data showing that oats are better than corn in dogs
And, sorry, asthma is not a normal feature of a normal person/animal, so asthma, for me, is an illness, and inflammation is not a symptom but a response to an offense ... |
 funny but most of the research I am finding says dogs have absolutely no need for carbohydrates adn thet they will be sotred as fat in an overfed animal, while excess protein is excreted. Also seeing alot of reference to the fact that the 40% rule was based on a study that didn't use dogs |
| This is going waaaaaay off topic but I can't resist. Excess protein is not stored as fat but instead is excreted. How? Or should I say where?
Yes, carnivores can live without carbohydrates, which doesn't mean they can't use them efficiently. There are no human needs for alcohol either but evidence is increasing that small amounts of red wine are beneficial. And what is the 40% rule?  |
| Part of this thread needs to be moved to a different heading.
I'm embarrassed this has gone so far off topic since it should be about helping a dog that's currently ill. Sorry Stacy. Let's get back to the subject which is Dancer... there's a worried owner and a dog we all want to see get well again. |
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