Dogs in Germany and sheepies off-leash
Just returned from a trip to Germany, where I noticed marked differences in how dogs are handled, and was wondering how many of these freedoms German dog owners have could be adopted in the U.S. First, dogs are allowed on public transportation and regional trains. There are posted signs indicating that they should be leashed, and that aggressive ones should be muzzled. Also, dogs need a 1/2-price child's ticket to ride. I always wish I could take my dog into the subway at home. At Munich's English Garden, where brooks with crystalline Alpine waters flow, human bathers contentedly share the waters and swim with their dogs (not to mention that many people swim in the nude!). That would be a no-no in the U.S., as far as I've seen. In public parks, farmer markets, city squares and low-traffic areas, many dogs are off-leash, and are obviously trained to be so since I didn't see any dog brawls. Is it possible to train our sheepies to be off-leash, or are their hunting instincts too strong and going to get them into trouble? Dogs are allowed on the grounds of national monuments and tourist spots, such as the Newschwanstein Castle (just not inside the castle), and even in many of the ubiquitous beer gardens. In the U.S., not even human children are allowed in beer halls! I do think the Germans probably have a higher level of awareness as far as responsible dog ownership, which makes all these freedoms we don't have in the U.S. possible. And Americans are also more litigious! |
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Cadenza wrote: I do think the Germans probably have a higher level of awareness as far as responsible dog ownership, which makes all these freedoms we don't have in the U.S. possible. And Americans are also more litigious!
Yup. But mainly they train their dogs! I know. Novel concept 
Also, because they are permitted to go (almost) everywhere. the dogs tend to be better socialized. Some of it is a natural extension of a largely different lifestyle (still), which I don't see changing here any time soon. But certainly there is nothing to prevent our breed from being off leash and in public places if they're trained, socialized and have a decent temperament to begin with. Sounds like a fun trip! Kristine |
| Yep it's totally different there. Here in the UK I think you can take your dog on the train, I'm not sure. The seats are so close together though, Ru certainly wouldn't fit on the floor at my feet, we would prob have to sit outside the loo. I would be stressed about people standing on his tail. Having said that, I think it's a wonderfully romantic notion and would love to give it a go.
I was astounded when Monika returned from her visit back home to Germany and said she had taken Charlie to the zoo 
Here, you can't really take the dog anywhere. Not to most tourist attractions, not into shops, except Pets at Home the pet store, not into shopping malls, not into most pubs or restaurants, unless you are sitting outside which is usually freezing and then you are cramped up with the smokers 
I really want to visit Germany, it sounds great (apart from the nakedness) |
Hint of Mischief wrote: I really want to visit Germany, it sounds great (apart from the nakedness)
NAKEDNESS???? 
People are wandering around naked with their dogs offleash and visiting zoos????
Kristine |
| I lived in Germany for 8 years and loved how dogs where so part of every ones lives. I got my first dog over there and brought her back. I always had found memories of being in a Gasthaus (German Pub) and a dog at someones feet.
oh and the nakedness..  |
| We lived in Frankfurt for 5 years with our first sheepie, Toby. Those were the best years of his life. They welcomed dogs everywhere.....most restaurants preferred dogs over children!!! Even the vet experience was much more holistic, and when he was 13 and needed to go to the Bridge, they issued a death certificate like he counted as a real citizen. Gotta love the Germans and having all the "papers" in order!!! |
cynmcreid wrote: They welcomed dogs everywhere.....most restaurants preferred dogs over children!!!
Having been a waitress in a previous life, I would have preferred dogs over children too.
Havent decided about the nakedness though |
| My Tonks and Luna are off-leash trained, and as a result they do better off leash than on. I take them on probably 50% of my errands, and the shops we go to either know them by now, or are so surprised at off leash sheepdogs that they don't fuss having them in their stores. I know all the sidewalk cafes where I can take them, and one even lets them inside.
I agree; not as many Americans train their dogs to the level that Europeans do. But the majority of our dogs are 'house pets" so the behaviors that would not be acceptable in public are excused with that. |
Cadenza wrote: Hi, everybody. Just returned from a trip to Germany, where I noticed marked differences in how dogs are handled, and was wondering how many of these freedoms German dog owners have could be adopted in the U.S. I do not think you would like many of these so called freedom that you seen in Germany, e.g. since the dog is seen in the eyes of the law as an object we pay high taxes (Hamish 140 $ / year, Misty 170 $ and Zorro 200 $) and a dog that is not correctly secured in a car will event in a high fine from the police. Cadenza wrote: First, dogs are allowed on public transportation and regional trains. There are posted signs indicating that they should be leashed, and that aggressive ones should be muzzled. Also, dogs need a 1/2-price child's ticket to ride. I always wish I could take my dog into the subway at home. Dogs that travel on a train have to have a muzzle according to the company regulations. Busses and trams are vary in different parts of the country. Cadenza wrote: At Munich's English Garden, where brooks with crystalline Alpine waters flow, human bathers contentedly share the waters and swim with their dogs (not to mention that many people swim in the nude!). That would be a no-no in the U.S., as far as I've seen. I do not know the laws regarding the English Garden but I am sure dogs have to be walked on a leash during any visit to this park although many people ignore this. Cadenza wrote: In public parks, farmer markets, city squares and low-traffic areas, many dogs are off-leash, and are obviously trained to be so since I didn't see any dog brawls. Is it possible to train our sheepies to be off-leash, or are their hunting instincts too strong and going to get them into trouble? Again the law differs from town to town and also from law officer to law officer, where we live we have to put the dog on the leash when visiting a farmers market, walking through the city center, or public parks, dogs are not allowed in children play areas. Most dogs are socialized in Germany although we do have some very aggresive breeds or rather specimens from certain breeds. For many years the breed that was no 1 in the bite stastistics was the German Shepherd although it is now the Parsons Jack Russel Terrier. Cadenza wrote: Dogs are allowed on the grounds of national monuments and tourist spots, such as the Newschwanstein Castle (just not inside the castle), and even in many of the ubiquitous beer gardens. In the U.S., not even human children are allowed in beer halls! Here again I am sure they should be on the leash although many people will ignore this regulation Cadenza wrote: I do think the Germans probably have a higher level of awareness as far as responsible dog ownership, which makes all these freedoms we don't have in the U.S. possible. And Americans are also more litigious!
I am not so certain about the above. |
| Darth Snuggle wrote:
Quote: My Tonks and Luna are off-leash trained, and as a result they do better off leash than on.
really? they seemed to do okay on leash in the ring In fact I think they did better than okay didn't they? I think Kristine's point is well taken. We don't want to train our dogs in this country - we settle for the illusion of control. What do we see everywhere - dogs on a leash that pull us wherever we are going (and no Kristine Mace did NOT do this to me ) Or a dog off lead doing pretty much what they want when they want, self satisfying behaviors that cost us in the agility or obedience ring whether we make the connection to the behavior or not. A well trained off leash dog is right up in heel position (that is where it comes from folks) against their owner when other people and dogs are around (unless they are released to play). I don't remember seeing any dogs last weekend were displaying those skills. And I am talking about in hotel hallways and walking into events, in the parade etc. My dogs are off leash trained too (but anyone who watched Marley in the obedience ring knows that is still a work in progress!). On top of that without a 100% infallible recall - that is they come the minute you call, the FIRST time you call and the ability to drop on command at a distance I would never trust them off leash in an unfamiliar area (this is a number one safety rule!). Nor would I want to other subject others to them unless I was certain they would not be annoying people or dogs. In other words unless I knew that without a doubt they would default to a heel position when someone else was in the vicinity, they will be on a leash. In the meantime we practice lots of long downs for impulse control in the driveway, in parking lots on sidewalks. I really think its better safe than sorry. |
kerry wrote: Darth Snuggle wrote:
Quote: My Tonks and Luna are off-leash trained, and as a result they do better off leash than on. really? they seemed to do okay on leash in the ring In fact I think they did better than okay didn't they? I was genuinely surprised that Tonks did as well as she did, to be honest. She usually loves pulling on her leash. And if you recall, Luna was the first dog to go for her category, and the judge was unfamiliar with the Pre-Novice requirements. So Luna did the whole thing on leash, and then was asked to repeat it off leash before we realized it wasn't required of her. 
I think the other thing people forget that training, whether for a specific event, or for off leash dogs, is never over. Its a life-time commitment. I'm constantly working with my girls to keep them under my voice command; and they do have their good and bad days. Also; 100% control is almost never the situation. My girls can be GREAT at something (like recall) but if Tonks sees a squirrel run across her vision, I can pretty much count on her losing all focus (on me, that is. She'll have plenty of focus for that squirrel). I also regularly introduce new commands. Right now we are working on "Quiet" for the barking and "Gentle" for Tonks' inclination to play too rough with puppies and small breeds. And I'm hoping to start them at a new Agility school that will teach us some of the finer nuances of the sport that we didn't learn in our first 10 weeks of classes, and I'm sure many new commands will come with that. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I think the other thing people forget that training, whether for a specific event, or for off leash dogs, is never over. Its a life-time commitment. I'm constantly working with my girls to keep them under my voice command; and they do have their good and bad days. And my trainer's accountant is forever grateful for that we do a minimum of four classes a week (for three dogs - one is a hopeless mess ) and train everyday in all sorts of situations.Also; 100% control is almost never the situation. My girls can be GREAT at something (like recall) but if Tonks sees a squirrel run across her vision, I can pretty much count on her losing all focus (on me, that is. She'll have plenty of focus for that squirrel). Here I disagree - this is the one test I would ensure BEFORE I ever let my dog off lead without a fence. Training with distractions or proofing is something that is often overlooked in the excitment thinking a dog is under our control I also regularly introduce new commands. Right now we are working on "Quiet" for the barking and "Gentle" for Tonks' inclination to play too rough with puppies and small breeds. And I'm hoping to start them at a new Agility school that will teach us some of the finer nuances of the sport that we didn't learn in our first 10 weeks of classes, and I'm sure many new commands will come with that. Well hopefully you will find a good instructor with a handling system and then more of the work is about body language, cues and support. We train under the Mecklenburg system and I find it very very useful. The one thing you don't want to do is find someone who has a patch of land, a bit of equipment and maybe a dog with a novice title to their credit. Real instructors have insight, knowledge and an ability to reach even the dullest students (I believe there have been times when I was a huge challenge to my instructor.  ) And it takes time and dedication. we do a private lesson a week, and a group lesson and we have a lot more work to do. |
| It's great to hear nice story's about Germany as Max, me and Charlie are moving back to MUNICH in 3 weeks time!
I agree totally that in Munich towncentre, really in the middle of town where 1000's of people are going shopping, I've seen loads of dog owners letting their dogs running/walking behind them without any lead! For strange reasons dogs & owners seem to stay together. My best friend told me that her dog was trained in the same way! It would be normally in Munich! I'm sure Charlie would get lost LOL!!!
In the Munich English Garden all dogs run free, there is no rule! I was there too and I havent seen 1 !!! dog on a lead! I also got the information about dogs travelling on trains. You do have to have them on a lead, but you DONT need a muzzle, but you have to pay for the dog. 2 Dogs go with 1 Adult! We also been in Restaurants where we have eaten and Charlie was sleeping on the floor. Once a waiter fell over Charlie and all the drinks where on the floor and he said "sorry" to US and was concerned about if Charlie was ok. He wasnt bothered about himself or the drinks!
We also been at the Munich river called "Isar" and everyone is laying around in the sun, with or without clothes! (There are "naked" areas at the most Munich lakes!) and dogs running round too and play and swim in the river! It was always like that as I can remember it! Bit like heaven!! We've been a couple of times in a shopping mall, even in the lift! (that was funny for Charlie, she straight stayed flat on the floor!! ha ha !! ) and where looking for clothes etc. etc. with Charlie next to us. It was quite strange as this wouldnt be allowed in UK.
We are looking quite forward to move back as Charlie will have a better life there, we most looking forward to go back to the zoo (as Cassie told you!) and visit the penguins and lions again!! The tax per year for Charlie is ca. Euro 75 and that's fine by me cause I can take her everywhere I want!!! PS: Max been for 2 days in Munich to do his Apprentice test and he came out succesfully as well as the health check. So hope this all sounds good that he got the Apprentice job (as a Train Driver at Deutsche Bahn) he wants to have! We cant wait to move back, as for all of us it will be much better than now, money-wise, health-wise, outdoor activities and friends and family live there too! Yippie!!! xxx    |
Ellie's Mum wrote: It's great to hear nice story's about Germany as Max, me and Charlie are moving back to MUNICH in 3 weeks time!
I'm so jealous!!! I wonder how hairy it would be to take my 50kg sheepie on a vacation to Munich. It looks like Continental will fly him as cargo (with me as passenger on the same flight) for about $300-$400, but then the Continental Airlines woman explained to me that I need a shipping broker to fly him back to the States? Didn't quite understand it. Has anyone ever taken their dog to Europe on vacation, and brought them back safely? |
| I have just come back from a road trip to Bavaria.
Dogs were everywhere, it's nice to see and unlike in Italy they clean up after their dogs
As for some of the other comments Germany is probably as litigious as the US. As for Munich I hope you are flying direct there, as the A'bahn between Munich and Stuttgart is hot and very slow with the roadworks and no place for a dog whatsoever. |
Cadenza wrote: It looks like Continental will fly him as cargo (with me as passenger on the same flight) for about $300-$400, but then the Continental Airlines woman explained to me that I need a shipping broker to fly him back to the States?
that's a new US requirement. I think I saw it on the AKC website, although it could have also been on a government site since its a new government requirement. |
| We drive the whole way from UK over Dover/Dunkerque to Munich by car! We did this last year and had no problems with Charlie! I think we only had 3 stops all together in 24 hours! Charlie was fab! She was just sleeping all time and never moaned or barked! Perfect dog for a long trip! It was hot when we drove but the german motorways have enough stops where you can have a rest, use the clean toiletfacilities and get some water for the dog and something to eat and drink for yourself!
Unlike the french/holland/belgium stops at the motorway the german stops are much cleaner&safer! Our ferry is at 6pm and arrive in Dunkerque at 9pm. So what we gonna do is, driving as far as we can to reach Germany to have a stop on the german motorway instead of hanging around in belgium etc. We've been there last year (Belgium)and it was quite dirty!! Didnt wanted to walk Charlie anywhere, when we had a rest, as it was full of waste everywhere!! We keep Charlie's water in the car so she can drink whenever she wants if it should be too hot! Aircondition is not bad either!! |
| Monika it may be worth checking online to see the condition of the A'bahns from Stuttgart to Munich when you travel then and maybe plan a slightly different route if you are going to use them, because I was stuck in very slow moving traffic ie less than 5kph at times at +33 degs Celcius. It looks like some very serious road upgrades.
Have a safe Journey either way. |
Archies Slave wrote: I have just come back from a road trip to Bavaria.
Dogs were everywhere, it's nice to see and unlike in Italy they clean up after their dogs As for some of the other comments Germany is probably as litigious as the US. As for Munich I hope you are flying direct there, as the A'bahn between Munich and Stuttgart is hot and very slow with the roadworks and no place for a dog whatsoever. wow, you've been in Bavaria!? Where exactly and did you liked it???? It seems like they repair something "again" (I think since 20 years!) between Stuttgart and Munich. I know it can be slow especially when the road splits up around the mountain, where one side goes up and the other down, and that can drag sometimes! I will check it out as I know in that part are no possibilities to have a break! I might go a different way, over Nuernberg to Munich! Thanx for letting me know, you have to tell us more about your trip when we see you the first time on the Sheepie Day on the 17th!! We are there too!! |
| I stayed in Ramsau. Yes I liked it, absolutely stunning scenery, it was quite funny when I got home to see no mountains, See you on the 17th. |
My husband and I always joke about how awesome it would be to slap a "I'm working" vest on Sunny to be able to take her into stores and stuff. We love taking her on errands, but in the summer it gets too hot in the car to take her along  |
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