Titers testing? What do you think of it?
 - what do you all think? I am new to all of this - I just want to do what is best for him - - - |
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sneakysheepie wrote: I started to titers test Winston last year ( he is now eight) - I thought I was doing a good thing for him but I just got back from an appt at a local vet and she went on and on how there is no proof behind titers testing and in fact I may be hurting Winston by not getting regular vaccinations
- what do you all think? I am new to all of this - I just want to do what is best for him - - -Stephanie - this is my experience only: I stopped vaccinating Belle except rabies as required by law at I think she was six years old. She's 11 1/2 now 
I'm not 100% sure titer testing is really all that accurate/relevant either (Kerry ?) so I'd only do titers if I need it for a class situation (required in lieu of proof of vaccines) or something like that. Most vets around here are quite comfortable with people electing not to vaccinate their middle aged or even younger dogs as long as they've had their baseline shots. You can probably argue this every which way, but most vets should feel comfortable with a dog who was vaccinated regularly no longer receiving vaccines after age seven. It's tough when a professional tells you otherwise - I HATE disagreeing with my vet, fortunately we rarely do, because I really trust and respect her. And going back to your vet and using the argument "well, 27 people on my OES forum said it's OK" is NOT a good argument 
BUT, FWIW, I firmly believe you're doing what's best for him and if you talked to an assortment of vets you'd probably find that many of them are very open to this change in protocol. Kristine |
| Great question!! I cant wait to read the answers.
To throw in another related issue, I had a similiar discussion with my vet last week too. Titer testing is not really done in Australia. When I asked my vet what he thought, he said he would do it for me if I wanted. He didnt say it was a waste of time but he did give me a bit of a lecture about those who dont vaccinate benifiting from those who do. I know that he is right, vaccinations work on a herd immunity basis as they are not 100% infallible, so it is best if the whole herd ie every dog you are ever likely to cross paths with is immunised. I took this to mean that he thought that I should be a responsible dog owner and vaccinate my dogs regularly ie NO titer testing. Mind you vets in Australia still recommend annual vaccinations, there is NO discussion yet that I am aware of about 3 yearly vaccinations. But we dont need to vaccinate against rabies as there is none here. I find it hard to believe that titer testing is a waste of time though, as it is done in humans. Most doctors here recommend that you get a titer test for immunity to rubella (german measles) if you are planning to fall pregnant. They dont just revaccinate every woman in case immunity has dropped off. Why would it be useful in humans but not dogs? |
Mim wrote: To throw in another related issue, I had a similiar discussion with my vet last week too. Titer testing is not really done in Australia. When I asked my vet what he thought, he said he would do it for me if I wanted. He didnt say it was a waste of time but he did give me a bit of a lecture about those who dont vaccinate benifiting from those who do.
I know that he is right, vaccinations work on a herd immunity basis as they are not 100% infallible, so it is best if the whole herd ie every dog you are ever likely to cross paths with is immunised. In the US (and beyond) there are people who practice what they call "natural rearing" - no vaccines, no heartworm or flea preventatives etc etc. And feed a raw, species appropriate diet, of course. They firmly believe that vaccinosis is to blame for all of the ills in our dogs and if we just breed and raise n generations (can never remember the exact number, and it probably varies since it's mostly speculative) their way, all of our dogs health problems will dissappear. I once made the mistake of invoking herd immunity and insinuated (? ) they were sponging off of those who do vaccinate and almost got my head handed to me on the proverbial platter Headless or not, I still believe there is truth to this premise and so does my vet.
Anyway, the group in question further had a homeopath speak to us and one of the questions I asked was what would happen if we ALL stopped vaccinating all together. He hemmed and hawed and said that, well, there would be a lot of, hm, attrition (death) and pet people probably wouldn't be able to emotionally handle this (ya think?  ) but ultimately we'd end up with stronger populations (true, at least for (sub) populations that weren't effectively wiped out_
What Stephanie is talking about is different. It's based on the notion that we pretty much know these vaccines were not meant to be annual. What we don't know for sure yet is how long they ARE good for (there are some studies underway, the Rabies Challenge Fund is probably the best known one) Certainly as humans we don't trot in to get our rubella shots annually and, as you point out, in adults, only particularly vulnerable populations are even titered. My holistic vet recommends titering a bitch you plan to breed, come to think of it. Anyway, bottomline, if Winston has had shots a number of years in a row, does he really need annual shots to keep him from contracting parvo (which is more a puppy disease, anyway) and distemper? Odds are good he does not and shooting him up with more vaccines he doesn't need, probably just harmful. Unfortunately without hard data as a pet owner you're often left struggling to figure out what is best for your dog. Vaccine protocols have changed here and I think they recommend P & D every three years (the rest are non-core vaccines in my mind, exception being rabies) after the first booster at about a year or so. Much like rabies in many states. In some states you still have to vaccinate for rabies annually. In others it's three. And in some, since you are not supposed to vaccinate a dog whose immune system is already compromised, you can get an excemption letter from a vet and I think you need to titer in that case, but I'm not sure. I am debating it though since Belle will be due for rabies next year and do I really want to give a 12 1/2 year old dog the rabies vaccine? No. I don't. And if I can safely and legally not have to do so, I won't. But, yes, great questions and interesting topic. Kristine |
| ^^^^^^^^^Yeah, what she said! Great post Kristine.
Let me just add that we titer test Oscar for everything but rabies, and he gets the 3-year vaccine for that. (Since he just received his latest vaccine at 4 years old, my vet is already saying that he will titer test for rabies in 3 years, and reconsider further rabies vaccines. The only reason he vaccinated Oscar this time is because rabid bats have been found in our area recently.) Oscar has Immune Mediated Disease, so both my regular and holistic vets don't see the need to overtax his system unnecessarily. Here is how my holistic vet explained vaccinations and their effect on the immune system. The first shot a dog receives creates an army to fight whatever disease the vaccine is for (rabies, distemper, etc.). In a dog with a compromised immune system, subsequent boosters mobilize the army to war against nothing, wreaking havoc with the body and causing inflammation/ bad reactions. For Oscar, the risks of vaccination outweigh the risks of contracting the diseases, so we titer test and hope for the best. I wish more studies were being done on this, to determine the efficacy of titer testing for our pups. Laurie and Oscar |
| Once mine are past middle age, I only do rabies too. Our rabies is every 3 yrs in MN, with no other city or county laws.
I haven't done titers on them. I did have a titer drawn on myself though! It was for work (I'm a nurse, for the hospital I worked at) It was an option for one of the required vaccines - if you knew you had it but didn't have the paperwork to prove it (and didn't want to get vaccinated again). My titer came back with full immunity - so it worked out well. 
TDI (Therapy Dogs International) has gone to only requiring a set of core vaccines for the non-Rabies vaccinations. I was kind of surprised when they changed that a few years back. Especially as they are not at all budging from every year HW checks and fecals. |
| My vet and I have discussed this. he is of the belief that people will soon be getting annual titre reminder cards in the mail. Marley and Morgan had their one year vaccinations. we will vaccinate for rabies as required by law - franky rabies has always scared me. they are now three. this year I titred Morgan (he has more health issues so I thought he was a good test case) He was fine. Next year they will be 4 (where has the time gone?) and I might titre Marley - but definitely when they are 5,when I suspect they may bneed some additional innoculations.
Yeah titres might not be 100% but neither are vaccines. the only other thing we do is an annual Lyme - that is an issue here and the Lyme vaccine does not last. We are following the same regime with puppy newf - with his breeders encouragement. our old guy Cedric is 9 and only gets Lyme and required rabies. I referenced Dr DOdds protocle (which I had printed out) when I approached my vet about the topic. And of course any other studies I had found. In allhonesty the first mention unecessary vaccines was my former vet when our previous dogs got older. He firmly believed after 5 or so the only needed rabies. |
 Thank you EVERYONE! Your answers have been very helpful - - - - I think I am doing what is right for Win. |
| Well, titers ARE accurate. The only problem may be with the level that is considered protective (and that varies with the method of determining the titer).
I think that people are mixing this with another issue: protection from disease relies not only on antibodies but also on other cells of defense. And because of that, even if antibodies are low, there may be no disease when the animal contacts with the agent. That's why there are people telling that antibody levels may not reflect the real protection of the dog, but that would apply only to low levels of antibodies. If the level is high, there's no doubt the dog is protected. |
| Last year, when the official report came out from the veterinary colleges, I took the report with me to the vet, prepared to stand up for not revaccinating my then 10 year old male. Much to my delight, my vet suggested it before I said anything! Isaac was due for his rabies (by law) which we went ahead with & he suggested keeping up on the Bortadella since I go to shows & have other dogs in & out of here regularly. He has record of all the vaccinations of my dogs over the years & said finally, with this report, the vets cold now do what they felt was best for the dogs rather than immunize yearly to cover their butts from the vaccine companies & courts. When Mariah was due this year for yearly shots (at the age of nine) we did the same...just the Bortadella. I know some people will say the Bortadella isn't that effective but I feel more comfortable having it & the place I board them requires it. At this point we are doing immunizations every other year. |
| I prefer not to over vaccinate. My dogs get their puppy vaccines, then a booster every three years, but only twice (so at approx 3.5 years and 6.5 years and that's it)
Immunity rises in a slope after each puppy vaccine and then levels off and when another puppy booster is given 4 weeks after the first it slopes upward again until it levels, and again with the third. If the third is given too young that slope may level and then begin to decline if the pups immune system was not mature enough at the time of the vaccine to "remember" how to make antibodies. If the pups immune system is mature enough at the time of the last vaccine it should level off and remain at an acceptable level so that if the dog were exposed to one of the diseases it was vaccinated for the immune system should recognize it and begin antibody production to fight it off. Most living things that produce antibodies in this manner "remember" each and every virus/germ and can then at any point in it's lifetime create those antibodies if needed. A titer test shows the levels of immune response... that response could be due to a vaccine or due to exposure to the virus in question, either way it is immune. If for some reason the dog wasn't showing immunity I would first question the dogs immune system, and run a few tests to see why it wasn't creating antibodies before jumping to re vaccination. |
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