You ever noticed how stubborn these guys can be????
Duncan's still not having a bowel movement in the bathroom. The only three times he has done so (since we adopted him) was: a. the day we brought him home b. the day we over indulged him and he had some diarrhea c. when we changed his cannned food -- and he turned around and ate it (I washed his mouth out and then used doggie toothpaste, toothbrush, and doggie mouthwash -- all I can say is EWWWW!) We have tried treating him like a puppy and put a leash on him to walk him in the backyard. That's when I see the stubbornness. I can nearly drag him by his collar, he locks down his legs so hard. We have tried waiting him out, but we won't leave him out by himself because he is frightened of the dogs (weinie-dogs) who bark at him. The barking weinie-dogs is the next area of stubbornness. Duncan and I were going for our walk (I already collected his deposit like the responsible pet owner that I am), and we happened to walk by a house that has three dogs. I have to admit that these dogs were pretty loud and obnoxious, but they were in their fenced yard; we were on the other side of the street; and, I was between him and the barking dogs. Again, he locked down. He didn't want to continue. He was definitely showing that obstinate side. Please don't suggest that we try treats. I keep low and high value treats in my pockets at almost all times. I couldn't him to respond to a high-value treat (a piece a brisket) anymore than giving him a dog cookie. He wasn't interested, and it didn't work at all. So. I have a timid OES who is stubborn. He has an owner that will not cause him physical pain (I didn't spank my honor-roll, National Honor Society, never had a referral daughers, either). So, any ideas? |
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| well define pain?
Don't you think letting him be terrified of the scary dogs (which face it he is if he is too afraid to eat even a high value treat) is worse than maybe using a leash correction or a more aversive training tool like a properly fitted prong collar? Not suggesting you torture him or even hurt him, but getting his attention and getting him to realize he is safe with you - because you took control of the situation, might be the kindest thing you ever do to him - unless of course you think you can reason with him like you do with your honor student. Personally, if we are going to equate kids and dogs, this National Merit Scholar finalist much more clearly remembers the times she was scared than any time she might have been spanked. |
kerry wrote: well define pain?
Don't you think letting him be terrified of the scary dogs (which face it he is if he is too afraid to eat even a high value treat) is worse than maybe using a leash correction or a more aversive training tool like a properly fitted prong collar? I never used a "properly fitted prong collar" on any animal that I have owned. There is a trainer in town that uses some sort of shocking collar (I think it's called a dogstar or dogtra collar), and I rejected that idea out of hand (even though our vet recommended him) because I don't want this dog to hurt. One might argue that being a first time OES owner, I may be overly sensitive to this animal. I am more than certain that I see this dog more as a baby (a great, big fluffy baby) than as a dog, and I don't expect to reason with him -- however I would rather find a more humane way to build trust that I can help him handle the situation. Suggestions? |
| The only way to work through that situation is to always keep your dog out of the zone where he feels he is over threshold - that could be two blocks away. It can take more than a year at that rate to deal with this issue - I have tried all of these 100 percent positive methods - some dogs just do not relate that way. a properly fitted and sized (they come as soft as a micro prong) prong does not hurt a dog. it is more akin to grasping your child's hand more tightly so they don't run out in front of a car.
If you won't consider trying what might not make sense to you, but might help your dog, then there are many books and websites out there for positive training. Search the topics here and you will find many recommendations as well. I hate to see an animal being relegated to emotional trauma though because of a human's anthropomorphisizing them. I have had to work through a lot of this myself. For a moment think of how your dog plays with another dog and what they perceive as unfair pain - not what you think of it. |
| ^^^^ That is food for thought. I've always been a bit freaked out by the thought of prong collars. I've never actually seen them for sale here in Aus. just pictures on the web.
But when I think about how my dalmo in particular played, mmmmm. He and his mates would run full pelt round the park hanging on to bits of each others face. I could never believe 1. that they thought it fun, not torture and 2. that their faces didnt come off. 
It really brought home to me why children and dogs MUST be supervised together. The dog may think its playing but it can rip a child's face off without understanding what its done.  |
Shea130 wrote: however I would rather find a more humane way to build trust that I can help him handle the situation.
Suggestions? Rollerblades on his feet so you can pull him along without hurting him or you? 
I wouldn't be so quick to pull out the prong collar. Nor would I resort to cookies because as you've just noted, they have no impact on him. Most likely because he's well over his anxiety threshold. I wouldn't call it stubborn. It's a survival mechanism: if they can't retreat, some dogs freeze, some put on a big display to see if they can make the boogie man go away. Macy does NOT like walking through the crowded crating areas in show situations because she does not like being lunged and barked at from illmannered dogs in crates. And I mean it REALLY bothers her. So she slams on the brakes. She doesn't grind to a halt, but she moves as little as possible or as slowly as possible. Kerry's right that you can't treat this with a "oh, poor baby" attitude. He's a dog. He needs leadership. He needs to know you've got his back. Leaders do not coo and commiserate. Leaders walk resolutely and confidently forward. Problem is your lack of leadership (trust) becomes apparent when bold, confident leader slams into the end of the leash.
You have two options (among others, I'm sure, but these would be mine): you can pull him with you, basically saying: suck it up, this won't kill you. Or you can let him learn from a more socially advanced dog. Here's what I did with Mace: I brought her sister - who doesn't like it very much either BUT apparently has more confidence in my ability to not permit her to become dog chow. And I walked them together. And let Mace cue off of her sister. (if nothing else she could hide behind her sister, probably ever hopeful they'd eat her first  ) She still doesn't LIKE it. Neither does Sybil. Neither do I! The charging dogs are only feet away. But we all learned to live with it. We don't have to like it. She trots the gauntlet unassisted by her safety net (something to throw to the lunging Akita "Here! Eat her! She's fatter than I am!" <shove>) on her own at a decent speed now. Did so all weekend.
This won't work for all situations but if he has a good buddy (dog) he trusts, can you walk them together for a while till he begins to understand that no one is going to eat him? Dogs don't trust or understand crates or fences. If they hear it and it sounds menacing, it's a threat. Now, as for going with him and having him on leash to potty - you're doing the right thing. I don't know his history. Did anyone ever teach him to walk on a leash? Will he walk ANYWHERE on a leash? (Failing this, I've seen dogs on roller blades...still trying to figure out how you'll clean up after him if he poops on the fly so to speak, but where there's a will... )
Kristine |
| when he freezes - distract him - if that means running around like a loon flapping your arms like a chicken then so be it!
Whatever it takes take his mind off what freezes him use it. Try to focus him on something else. Only real trouble is finding that thing to push his buttons. |
Archies Slave wrote: when he freezes - distract him - if that means running around like a loon flapping your arms like a chicken then so be it!
Whatever it takes take his mind off what freezes him use it. Try to focus him on something else. Only real trouble is finding that thing to push his buttons. Unless you do that before he freezes it isn't really helping with the anxiety. |
| Has he ever been to a doggie day care without mom. It was hard for me and worse for my husband, but most are great at putting socially compatible dogs together...yea, even the little yippie ones. According to our kennel owner they have far more problems from the little yips than the big guys and girls. t does help them to be more independent. |
kerry wrote: Archies Slave wrote: when he freezes - distract him - if that means running around like a loon flapping your arms like a chicken then so be it! Whatever it takes take his mind off what freezes him use it. Try to focus him on something else. Only real trouble is finding that thing to push his buttons. Unless you do that before he freezes it isn't really helping with the anxiety. No, it doesn't unfortunately. It usually just adds to their anxiety, because not only do they have to deal with whatever they fear, the only safety net they marginally know has now clearly lost her mind (been there, done that, probably have pictures to prove it somewhere ) For some dogs it just confirms that they really have cause to be concerned or why else would the human be behaving so erratically???
Distraction does work well for some things, but, again, it's an under threshhold thing. Once they cross that threshhold to the point that they freeze up, it can be really hard to "unstick" them. Better to be quietly confident and as normal as possible. Harder for some of us than others 
I'll give a quick pop of the lead and a soft and neutral "knock it off" and stride forward and praise softly when dog opts to come with me. But if the dog is in total lock down, that isn't going to work either. I worked with one dog for a long time whom I swore was agoraphobic (!!) Not mine, she belonged to a friend, but she connected better with me (my friend is prone to the dramatic and the bitch needed very even keeled) I noticed that she had incredibly good other dog instincts and social skills and really thrived as part of my pack so I used them and the fact that she lived to please me to help convince her that she could do things like walk down a street or go to a park or even ride in the car (which stressed her out for a good long time) and the sky was not going to fall on her and there were good things to be had if she'd just broaden her horizons. It took a long time but she did come around. She had another interesting trait I've never seen in any other dog - she could watch me work with my dogs and seemed to learn by watching. I was learning how to use a clicker and she was so eager to "do" and such a wonderfully blank training slate that I ended up using her as my guinea pig. Every little thing she mastered, every bit of praise she got, every little cookie - it all served as tiny building blocks for developing some confidence in her. It was a fascinating learning experience with one of the most interesting sheepdogs I've ever known. I owe her a lot. I still miss her and I always will. Kristine |
| I think the first thing you have to work on is winning his confidence and knowing he can relay on you, this takes time and a lot of patience. When Zorro came to us he had been kept in the garden and had never been faced with the challanges of real life, he was afraid of everything crowds, dust bins you name it, we have taken our time and now just over one year later he is becoming a very confident dog. We showed him a lot of affection and sympathy and worked at getting him used to us and that he was safe and nobody or anything would hurt him. They do bneed a lot of time. |
| Kristine, I read somewhere that dogs can learn by watching other dogs.
It was a behavioural experiement, dang, now I'm going to have to go searching for it. They did something like teach one dog to open a gate using a lever that only worked for them if they used the correct paw or some such and then they let other dogs watch and they were able to get it right much quicker than normal.  |
Mim wrote: Kristine, I read somewhere that dogs can learn by watching other dogs.
It was a behavioural experiement, dang, now I'm going to have to go searching for it. They did something like teach one dog to open a gate using a lever that only worked for them if they used the correct paw or some such and then they let other dogs watch and they were able to get it right much quicker than normal. I knew they could learn BAD things from watching other dogs (witness certain evil dogs' ability to teach foster dogs to counter surf ), but Autumn was the first dog I've worked with who appeared to learn about things like heeling by watching
She was interested in anything that garnered another dog praise and attention. So I guess there is a motivational factor which would explain why I can't seem to teach all of my guys obedience exercises en masse by having them watch me work with one of them
Kristine |
| Mmmm yes, motivation is everything.
Shame really there are so many things I really should learn about, you know filling in my quarterly tax and stuff like that, but for some reason I'd rather brush Tiggy.  |
| A lot of y'all mentioned having another dog around. My husband is wondering if that would make Duncan's life easier.
Duncan was one of the "Missouri 9" that was rescued in February. It appears that he had been around other dogs all of his life, and now he's by himself. He's very gentle and loves being around us and petted. He's housebroken, and he's learning basic commands, such as "sit." My husband's theory is that if we had another OES, his skittishness and timidity would lessen because he could take cues from the other dog. (I think it might be that my husband wants two OES dogs.) |
| Yes, it can help out a lot.
Our fosters tend to learn things faster because they follow the example of our pack. Our current foster would be making a LOT slower progress if he didn't have the rest of our dogs to learn from. He used to stand and watch them, like he was trying to decide if he should do the same.. - kind of fun to watch "the wheels turning" in his brain...  Lately he moves more spontaneously, with the flow.......And even more lately, if he hears a command in the house, he has the courage to move, be happy and wiggly. He used to just freeze, sometimes growl and submissive pee - how sad.  It is so great seeing his confidence grow, literally before our eyes.
Sometimes it can backfire if the mix of personalities is wrong, but mostly it is beneficial (in my experience). |
| It made a world of difference for Chaunce. I'm not physically able to handle another large dog at this point but I would love to have another.
We have used the same kennel for about 15 years now and would feel comfortable with their care and accomendations for ourselves. Chauncey was a hard nut to crack, but going to the kennel and maturation made all the difference. When we were looking for a kennel for our Jake ( OTB Lab), we went unannounced to the ones recommended by friends. We were lucky to find one that we feel totally comfortable with. They appreciate that different breeds have different personalities and will allow Chauncey to be within his norm, but are quick to correct unsociable behavior...just like home. If you can't handle another at this point...maybe you might want to check into daycare a day or 2 a week??? |
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