riverbin oes
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| I have seen them advertise on Puppyfind....
I can't remember where they are. Are you asking for a specific reason? Just curious as I am in NC . |
| Okay, I had to refresh my memory
this is their actual web page. [No links to puppyfind please] Not always a good sign that they have multiple breeds for sale..cats too! Just my opinion, hopefully you will get some useful advice here. |
| we are looking into adopting another oes. i have written a few of the breeders on the list attached to this site as well as rescue. we would prefer a male puppy. |
| Have you tried calling too? I could never get ahold of the people on the recommended breeder list unless I called. I personally would not get a dog from the kennel you posted. |
Guest, would you like to join so you can send and receive private messages? This forum is a great place to learn more about the breed and share photos and stories when you do get a pup, as well as ask any question with regards to feeding, training, grooming etc... 
Welcome |
| Our now 9 month old OES came from Riverbin, located just north of Durham, NC.
Winnie has been a handful, but thankfully she's now a sweet, very smart dog. We love her. Ruth at Riverbin has two females and one male. Our puppy's mother was Charlie (the other female is Myrtle). We went for visits (twice) before deciding to get a puppy from there and Ruth welcomed us to look around, meet the parents and ask as many questions as we wanted. All 3 of Ruth's OES have great temperaments. They are friendly, sweet, and smart. The only cautionary note that I'd make is that the puppies are moved from Mom (though Mom still feeds them) at a fairly early age. We think Winnie may not have received enough "bite inhibition" training from Charlie. (However, I will note that a whole lot of other OES puppy owners had to deal with biting and nipping early on.) Winnie also was the "runt" of the litter, weighing only 14 oz at birth. So, we imagine she had to compete pretty strongly for food very early. Winnie is and will be a wonderful dog. She is SO SMART, and sweet. Her markings are fantastic and she's retaining the plum (or black) hair. She's got two blue eyes and everywhere we go people want to pet her. She's great with kids, too, including our grandchildren. And, she loves other dogs as well. (She ignores cats.) Wherever you get your OES puppy, just know they are demanding, need lots of exercise and you will need lots of patience. This forum has been fabulous for getting really good advice from fellow OES lovers. |
| There is nothing on their site that says a word about health testing on the parents, guarantees, pedigrees, championships... nothing that would be important to an informed buyer. AKC registered means very little. Their repeated breeding of two bitches and one dog isn't a good sign, IMO. It's usually just an inexperienced individual cranking out puppies for a few extra bucks income.
Yes, you may be the lucky one who does get a good dog from such a breeder. Rarely are they ever a good representation of the breed and often have health issues. Most of the dogs we get in our rescue are from "breeders" such as these who refuse to take back a dog with any issues. What you save now by purchasing a "low cost" puppy may cost you a fortune in vet bills. Yes, some are very sweet dogs but many have behavioral issues as well. One thing I always tell potential buyers is if they think they can't walk away from a litter of cute OES puppies don't even go to see them. They're impossible to resist regardless of the breeder. Do your homework up front and talk to the people who have been where you are. This little bundle of fur will hopefully be with you for many years. Nita Midwest OES Rescue |
| Winnie has a two year health guarantee; and the breeder will take her back at any time should there be health or other issues. Her adult OES were tested for both hips and eyes - my husband and I saw the certifications. In addition, we talked with the verinarian who has handled the adult OES and puppies for this breeder. She is not a puppy "mill."
Believe me, I am a careful buyer of puppies, as my father was a vet and raised Wiemeraners. I know there is a propensity on this site to only get OES from specific breeders. And we tried several times to contact not only Tarja at the OES Club, but also breeders on their referral list. We got no replies to our e-mails or phone calls. While Winnie may not be as good as YOUR dog, she is a dog we truly love, enjoy and provide the best for. She's a lovely, smart OES who exhibits the traits of the breed. |
| I hope you have many happy years with Winnie, dont beat yourself up hun, you did all your research and found a healthy happy puppy.
Debsx |
kayc1218 wrote: Winnie has a two year health guarantee; and the breeder will take her back at any time should there be health or other issues. Her adult OES were tested for both hips and eyes - my husband and I saw the certifications. In addition, we talked with the verinarian who has handled the adult OES and puppies for this breeder. She is not a puppy "mill."
Believe me, I am a careful buyer of puppies, as my father was a vet and raised Wiemeraners. I know there is a propensity on this site to only get OES from specific breeders. And we tried several times to contact not only Tarja at the OES Club, but also breeders on their referral list. We got no replies to our e-mails or phone calls. While Winnie may not be as good as YOUR dog, she is a dog we truly love, enjoy and provide the best for. She's a lovely, smart OES who exhibits the traits of the breed. Winnie is beautiful and there is no comparison to others when we all think of our dogs! I do rescue and none of my dogs were researched,purchased puppies... I love them each and every one no matter where they came from! (Who knows I may have one from Riverbin too!) I did notice though that she has multiple breeds for sale. In what I have understood that is a red flag! |
kayc1218 wrote: Winnie has a two year health guarantee; and the breeder will take her back at any time should there be health or other issues. Her adult OES were tested for both hips and eyes - my husband and I saw the certifications. In addition, we talked with the verinarian who has handled the adult OES and puppies for this breeder. She is not a puppy "mill."
Believe me, I am a careful buyer of puppies, as my father was a vet and raised Wiemeraners. I know there is a propensity on this site to only get OES from specific breeders. And we tried several times to contact not only Tarja at the OES Club, but also breeders on their referral list. We got no replies to our e-mails or phone calls. While Winnie may not be as good as YOUR dog, she is a dog we truly love, enjoy and provide the best for. She's a lovely, smart OES who exhibits the traits of the breed. There's definitely no agenda to get people to purchase from specific breeders other than just responsible, reputable breeders. What we're all trying to stress is the importance of genetic and health testing as well as a responsible breeding program, which you should get by going with an OESCA breeder. Breeders that have been running a longtime breeding program can go all the way back in their lines and really know what they're breeding and have a good idea of how breeding one dog to another will work out, both in health and conformation. Health testing is a good first step but it isn't everything since testing can't take the place of years of knowledge. I think it was Kristine that described breeders that did health testing but didn't really follow a program as "borderline" breeders. Not really a BYB breeder but quite at the reputable breeder ranking yet either. Good intentions, but maybe just not all the knowledge yet. I thought that was a good way to describe it. |
| I have spoken with Riverbin and was told her dogs have not been tested for anything and the proof of health was in the fact that the generations before have had not hip or eye problems. The breeder stated she has been breeding for over 30 years and has owned OES since she was a child.
Having owned various breeds - some puppies from Westminster level breeders and some from what may be called BYBs. My most expensive and heart breaking pup came from the well-bred, experienced Westminster winner line. Another one from a "top show line and well-bred" line developed a serious fear aggresion problem early. Puppies from the BYB have been fine - smart, healthy and great temperments. So ...... i am not an expert, just have had some experiences. |
| So, does this "breeder" continually crank puppies out of these OES every heat cycle for the duration of their life? Just like with humans, there are no true guarantees. Healthy parents don't always produce children without problems. If you are aware of congenital problems, a ethical breeder will take that animal out of its breeding program. I believe that any breeder who tells you they've never had a health or temperament problem is not being honest with you.
Yes, I do OES Rescue and I HAVE seen the products of many BYB and mills. One 5 month old OES puppy found as a stray was placed with a family and within a year they wrote and said she had to have a hip replacement, possibly both hips. There are several people going through this now right here on this forum. It's heartbreaking and financially devastating. Most dogs we've taken in do have good temperaments. We've only had to euthanize one dog due to temperament issues and much of that probably had to do with the home he was in. People come here asking for advice and many of us have lived through it. When I got my first puppy back in 1981, there was no such thing as on-line forums. Unless you were part of the show world, you didn't know who to look to for a nice dog or who to avoid because their dogs had health or temperament problems. Most people relied on classified ads in the newspaper. If I didn't believe that BYB or mill dogs could make great pets I wouldn't be doing rescue. When people ask for advice on whether to buy from a certain breeder, it's difficult not to give an honest opinion. Those who have obtained a dog from a questionable breeder, rescued a puppymill dog or from whatever circumstances should love them completely and unconditionally. People that ask the opinions of veteran OES owners should expect to hear some things they may not want to hear. I respect the people who come here asking about certain kennels prior to buying a dog because it does show they are doing their homework. |
Guest wrote: I have spoken with Riverbin and was told her dogs have not been tested for anything and the proof of health was in the fact that the generations before have had not hip or eye problems.
There is an organization called the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) which is a registry for various breed-specific health tests, which most reputable breeders use to verify the health of their dogs. Riverbin does not come up in the searches. http://www.offa.org/search.html |
| Dec.4,2010 I purchased our beautitul OES little girl last Dec 2009 from Riverbin OES and my husband and couldn't be happier. This is not our first OES so I knew what to look out for. I found Ruth; the breeder of Riverbin to be wonderful and very responsible. She is NOT A PUPPY MILL!! she is willing to take as much time as you need to answer any questions you may have. Raleigh will be celebrating her first birthday in just a few weeks. My vet finds no health problems and says she is a sound happy, healthly well adjusted puppy....just a beautiful dog. She has a very loving temperment and gets along with my 8 lb Yorkie ,cats and 26 silkie chickens. I have 11 grandchildren ages 3mos to 17 yrs old and she is wonderful with them all. OES"s are gentle but they are clowns and want to be part of the family, they are big lap dogs. Like any dog they need to be socialized and have proper obedience training introduced early. I started socializing our dog after she had all her puppy shots. I enrolled her into puppy classes and obedience classes after that. She is a true joy ad deeply loved member of our family. |
| Congrats on your puppy! Please keep us updated on the little one! |
| I also have one of Riverbin's OES dogs, and she is wonderful, smart, friendly, loves people and childeren, I have people driving by as we walk that stop and ask about her and tell me how beautiful she is, I just cannot say enough about her. She has retained her black coat, color is grizzle,it is so soft, she will be 4 yrs old this August. Ruth was available when ever I called with a question and gave me very good advice. Her mother is Charlie, and I can see her Grandmother Summer on puppy find, Summer is from the Carolina Shores breader. I don't believe that Riverbin is a puppy farm and I would go no where else to get an OES. Joanne |
Guest wrote: She has retained her black coat, color is grizzle,it is so soft, she will be 4 yrs old this August. Joanne Unfortunately, those are things that are incorrect for the conformation of an OES. The coat should never be soft, almost no well bred dog will ever stay black (unless there's an injury and the coat grows in in that spot) and I'm not sure what you mean about the coat color also being grizzle, too. I'm sure your dog is great and you love her but this breeder has proved time and time again that the dogs that she puts out are not good examples of the breed. When you spend money on an Old English Sheepdog, you should be getting a good representative of the breed-- in looks, temperament and health. That's always the message that we want people to take from the advice that we give, never to feel bad about what we're telling them. |
| I have a riverbin pup - Bogey. He is not yet 2 and he has lightened and has his gray/silver and not soft. My girl Gigi not from Riverbin -- her fur is still dark black and soft. Do some sheepies take more time to change colors and tecture? Gigi turned 2 in January. |
oesmom2 wrote: I have a riverbin pup - Bogey. He is not yet 2 and he has lightened and has his gray/silver and not soft. My girl Gigi not from Riverbin -- her fur is still dark black and soft. Do some sheepies take more time to change colors and tecture? Gigi turned 2 in January. Yes, they do all change coats and colors at different ages (if ever) Quin who was 5 when he passed away had a very rough coat but, never turned grey! Georgie who is 2 1/2 has a baby soft coat and light grey as she can be! |
Donner's Mom wrote: oesmom2 wrote: I have a riverbin pup - Bogey. He is not yet 2 and he has lightened and has his gray/silver and not soft. My girl Gigi not from Riverbin -- her fur is still dark black and soft. Do some sheepies take more time to change colors and tecture? Gigi turned 2 in January. Yes, they do all change coats and colors at different ages (if ever) Quin who was 5 when he passed away had a very rough coat but, never turned grey! Georgie who is 2 1/2 has a baby soft coat and light grey as she can be! Sounds like everyone that has been to Riverbin or has a Riverbin puppy is extremely happy with the HEALTH, BEAUTY, and TEMPERMENT of their pup.... its the people that have never been to Riverbin... or has never even seen a Riverbin pup that says bad things.... Riverbin post the name and contact information of their vet, and many previous owners of pups to be contacted if there are any questions..... nothing like getting information from the ones that really know.... Riverbin has been raising OES for over 25 years....many people go back to get their second, third, fourth and beyond pup over a 25 year spand..this alone speaks in volumes....A beautiful picture of a Riverbin pup hung in a major department store all last winter, this pup is a model for Ralph Lauren.... A person with a good eye for beauty...I think Riverbin must be kicking.... I think Riverbin pups are the best.... No one was asking for an opinion they were just stating the fact that they have a wonderful pup from Riverbin with a dark Grizzle coat (Meets AKC Standards)....when someone that does not know anything about Riverbin jumped in with only bad things to say..... giving their opinion .... you know what they say about opinions.... Riverbin is home breeder, with a very large, clean, beautiful, well planned nursery for all new pups. They raise Healthy, Beautiful pups with the best temperment you will ever find, I have never seen a pup from Riverbin that does not meet or exceed AKC standards... Again.... Remember when reading the Riverbin thread.... everyone that has a Riverbin pup is extremely happy with their pup... the bad is coming from people that know nothing about Riverbin. The doors of Riverbin are wide open for anyone that wants to visit ..... they are always welcome to meet the owner, and the adult Sheepdogs. |
 ^^^^^ I am SURE this is an unbiased opinion from an uninterested observer, someone who has no stake in riverbin whatsoever.....  Laurie and Oscar |
| I looked for a long time for an oes & i found RIVERBIN! what a great sheep dog. although i had to wait almost a year ,my puppy was well worth the wait! RIVERBIN raises outstanding sheep dogs,their health is excellent, their confirmation is outstanding & their temperment is wonderful!! I will be returning to RIVERBIN for another sheep dog. I HIGHLY RECCOMEND RIVERBIN FOR YOUR NEXT OES. |
Levi wrote: I looked for a long time for an oes & i found RIVERBIN! what a great sheep dog. although i had to wait almost a year ,my puppy was well worth the wait! RIVERBIN raises outstanding sheep dogs,their health is excellent, their confirmation is outstanding & their temperment is wonderful!! I will be returning to RIVERBIN for another sheep dog. I HIGHLY RECCOMEND RIVERBIN FOR YOUR NEXT OES. What the heck is "outstanding confirmation"? Obviously these dogs have never been in a CONFORMATION ring and evaluated by a qualified judge. Also a bit unclear about what "temperment" is. You should be looking for a wonderful TEMPERAMENT in a dog. Oh, "RECCOMEND" is actually spelled "recommend". How can you sell puppies if you don't know the terminology and how to spell the words? |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: Levi wrote: I looked for a long time for an oes & i found RIVERBIN! what a great sheep dog. although i had to wait almost a year ,my puppy was well worth the wait! RIVERBIN raises outstanding sheep dogs,their health is excellent, their confirmation is outstanding & their temperment is wonderful!! I will be returning to RIVERBIN for another sheep dog. I HIGHLY RECCOMEND RIVERBIN FOR YOUR NEXT OES. What the heck is "outstanding confirmation"? Obviously these dogs have never been in a CONFORMATION ring and evaluated by a qualified judge. Also a bit unclear about what "temperment" is. You should be looking for a wonderful TEMPERAMENT in a dog. Oh, "RECCOMEND" is actually spelled "recommend". How can you sell puppies if you don't know the terminology and how to spell the words? I thought they had those religious puppies....  |
Sheepdog Lover wrote: Donner's Mom wrote: oesmom2 wrote: I have a riverbin pup - Bogey. He is not yet 2 and he has lightened and has his gray/silver and not soft. My girl Gigi not from Riverbin -- her fur is still dark black and soft. Do some sheepies take more time to change colors and tecture? Gigi turned 2 in January. Yes, they do all change coats and colors at different ages (if ever) Quin who was 5 when he passed away had a very rough coat but, never turned grey! Georgie who is 2 1/2 has a baby soft coat and light grey as she can be! Sounds like everyone that has been to Riverbin or has a Riverbin puppy is extremely happy with the HEALTH, BEAUTY, and TEMPERMENT of their pup.... its the people that have never been to Riverbin... or has never even seen a Riverbin pup that says bad things.... Riverbin post the name and contact information of their vet, and many previous owners of pups to be contacted if there are any questions..... nothing like getting information from the ones that really know.... Riverbin has been raising OES for over 25 years....many people go back to get their second, third, fourth and beyond pup over a 25 year spand..this alone speaks in volumes....A beautiful picture of a Riverbin pup hung in a major department store all last winter, this pup is a model for Ralph Lauren.... A person with a good eye for beauty...I think Riverbin must be kicking.... I think Riverbin pups are the best.... No one was asking for an opinion they were just stating the fact that they have a wonderful pup from Riverbin with a dark Grizzle coat (Meets AKC Standards)....when someone that does not know anything about Riverbin jumped in with only bad things to say..... giving their opinion .... you know what they say about opinions.... Riverbin is home breeder, with a very large, clean, beautiful, well planned nursery for all new pups. They raise Healthy, Beautiful pups with the best temperment you will ever find, I have never seen a pup from Riverbin that does not meet or exceed AKC standards... Again.... Remember when reading the Riverbin thread.... everyone that has a Riverbin pup is extremely happy with their pup... the bad is coming from people that know nothing about Riverbin. The doors of Riverbin are wide open for anyone that wants to visit ..... they are always welcome to meet the owner, and the adult Sheepdogs. HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I should not be included in that I am in no way shape or form promoting Riverbin! I was speaking of the coats! Also, in my humble opinion ANY breeder that keeps their dogs up on a web site 365 days a years is NOT a reputable breeder! It always says "puppies planned" Does she list any health certifications???? Just wondering?? As I said I in no way, shape or form support Riverbin! |
| People have the right to defend their breeder (or themselves, although they should identify themselves as such) on the merits but I'd prefer not to argue with them over spelling. |
| Thank you, Ron. |
kayc1218 wrote: Thank you, Ron. Might I add Winnie is a very nice pup!!!!!!!!! I still would love to have her for a play date any time! All in all our dogs are our dogs..... We love them! |
Donner's Mom wrote: kayc1218 wrote: Thank you, Ron. Might I add Winnie is a very nice pup!!!!!!!!! I still would love to have her for a play date any time! All in all our dogs are our dogs..... We love them! Yes I agree she is a beautiful OES. I have looked at the pictures of her, and I think I read she is a Riverbin pup? I think she is beautiful. |
Why is it some regulars on this forum seem to confuse FACT with OPINION  If a breeder isn't a comformation breeder than they are a BACKYARD BREEDER in these peoples' opinion. Please give me specific facts as to why someone isn't a good breeder i.e bad hips, poor temperament, other health issues. I have nothing to do with Riverbin. But I find it interesting that those who do have nothing but positive things to say. Those of you opposed to non conformation breeders have alot of negative opinions but I see no facts. Its my opinion there are good Show breeders and good non Show breeders, just as there are bad in both groups also. If you don't trust what you know about dogs (and OES's to be specific), go with someone proven, i.e., a Show breeder or someone off the OES breeder list ( though it seems many people state they can't get a response from this list). If you are comfortable, do your own research and make an informed decision from your own group of breeders. The bottom line is always - buyer beware. Just remember that you are dealing with a living thing. You can do all the right research and still your dog may have problems. I personally didn't like the lines of the show breeders in my area. I'm not a fan of "line-breeding." My opinion, my money, my dog.... I couldn't be happier with my puppy who is now almost two and a half. She is very healthy, super smart, gets along with everyone (two and four legged), I think she is pretty (thats what matters) and everyone seems to know she is an OES(most of the time). Finally I was raised to respect other peoples opinions (my mother always said if I kept my mouth shut and listened I might learn something from someone else  ) Shame on the person who couldn't refute what someone said so they put the person down for how they said it. That was not very nice or intelligent... just my opinionPS- I have four pure breed dogs - three are rescue, only the OES princess was purchased as a puppy. Health and temperment mean more to me than blood lines. |
| When people come to this forum asking for opinions about a specific breeder, those of us who have been around here for awhile try to help them make an informed decision. If you judge by the website of this particular breeder there's nothing indicating that any health testing is done on their animals. Based on that fact only, it's enough to be wary. People are free to choose wherever they get a dog from but when they've come here asking, all we can offer is advice and yes, our opinions. There's no doubt that some dogs from this breeder have been healthy and of sound temperament. I'm a rescue volunteer and know that even dogs from the most humble beginnings are usually fabulous companions. Back in the early 1980's we bought a puppy from a family who happened to have a pair of OES they bred. We didn't have the means to research like we do today and didn't know how important health testing and breeding for temperament and to breed standard are. Winston lived a long life but not without health and temperament issues. Maggie, our 1st rescue, was from a large commercial breeder (i.e. puppymill) and she had a wonderful disposition and also lived until nearly 14 yrs. of age. There are several members here who have purchased puppies from what may be referred to as "backyard breeders". Some have shared very positive experiences about their dogs on this thread. Others decided that being able to get a puppy immediately off the internet was better than waiting for a reputable breeder to have a litter and have regretted that decision. Or have even adopted a rescue dog that later developed problems. It doesn't mean they love their dogs any less but if they had it to do over again they may have done things differently. People who have never shown a dog in conformation or read the breed standard don't know how the "ideal" OES should look. Breeders aren't out there showing their dogs purely for their egos. It's an expensive and exhausting fancy and very few get rich for their efforts. Breeders who don't show often say it's unnecessary and that pedigrees don't matter but they never hesitate to say their puppies are from "championship lines" even when there may be one champion several generations back. It's not exactly fair that they cash in on the hard work of a show breeder. Personally, I've shown my dog in conformation and assisted friends in showing their dogs. I know OESCA breeders that I'd love to have a puppy from and others... not so much. We've taken in many lovely rescue dogs although few that had the attributes of a well-bred OES. I've assisted in helping find homes for several OESCA breeder's returned dogs although none have ever been surrendered to rescue. These breeders have always taken their dogs back. We've yet to have a BYB take one of their dogs back and in several cases we've had to deal with the messes they've created. Yes, we have euthanized dogs because of severe aggression and medical conditions that could not be remedied where the dog was in extreme pain. It's not something that we get over easily. When the same breeder's name keeps coming up (although not Riverbin in our case as they are not in our area) we do get very frustrated and tend to speak out a bit harshly. People come here asking for advice from those who know the breed better or have seen their share of heartaches or drained bank accounts because of health, temperament or behavioral problems. What they do is their own business and they'll do what they want anyway. The "regulars" you are talking about are passionate about this breed and are trying to preserve it, even to better it. Sadly, it doesn't matter what kind of breeder you are if you put up a website with cute OES puppy pictures and advertise them for less than $1,000. People will buy them. |
furry and four paws wrote: Why is it some regulars on this forum seem to confuse FACT with OPINION If a breeder isn't a comformation breeder than they are a BACKYARD BREEDER in these peoples' opinion. Please give me specific facts as to why someone isn't a good breeder i.e bad hips, poor temperament, other health issues. I have nothing to do with Riverbin. But I find it interesting that those who do have nothing but positive things to say. Those of you opposed to non conformation breeders have alot of negative opinions but I see no facts. Its my opinion there are good Show breeders and good non Show breeders, just as there are bad in both groups also. If you don't trust what you know about dogs (and OES's to be specific), go with someone proven, i.e., a Show breeder or someone off the OES breeder list ( though it seems many people state they can't get a response from this list). If you are comfortable, do your own research and make an informed decision from your own group of breeders. The bottom line is always - buyer beware. Just remember that you are dealing with a living thing. You can do all the right research and still your dog may have problems. I personally didn't like the lines of the show breeders in my area. I'm not a fan of "line-breeding." My opinion, my money, my dog.... I couldn't be happier with my puppy who is now almost two and a half. She is very healthy, super smart, gets along with everyone (two and four legged), I think she is pretty (thats what matters) and everyone seems to know she is an OES(most of the time). Finally I was raised to respect other peoples opinions (my mother always said if I kept my mouth shut and listened I might learn something from someone else ) Shame on the person who couldn't refute what someone said so they put the person down for how they said it. That was not very nice or intelligent... just my opinionPS- I have four pure breed dogs - three are rescue, only the OES princess was purchased as a puppy. Health and temperment mean more to me than blood lines. I respect your opinion but, you need to respect ours as well We are volunteers who spend countless hours on the phone, internet etc.. to rehome these dogs that people do not want! Am I complaining? Heck no, this is what I do! This is my choice! Please do not fault rescues for wishing we could take a day off! We would like to see less dogs in rescue...... |
 This thread was started April 27th 2009 ... the guest that posted the first question did go to Riverbin and get a beautiful male pup... he is now grown, there is a great picture of him on the website, under Previous pups, he is sitting in a red pick up truck. The two of them are very happy with each other. They travel all over the US and have lots of fun. Being Happy, Healthy, and Loved is what life should be about. |
| He is beautiful... It looks like he is driving the truck. |
| I'm glad not a pup from this breeder has ever been affected with a genetic health or temperament problem. I'm not being a SA when I say this. I truly mean it because I love this breed. We all feel loyalty to our breeders if we have wonderful companions. Whether they look like they belong in the show ring or simply resemble an OES, dogs from both sides of the fence have proven to be remarkable dogs. I have both so I know first hand. Does this breeder pretest and OFA/CERF? It just seems to me that one benefit of all breeders pretesting and OFA/CERF rating their dogs is that they can at the very least say, “Well, I did everything I could to avoid this (hip dysplasia, PRA, OCD, etc.).” rather than just leaving it to chance. Anyone who's ended up with a dog with hip dysplasia (or purposely chose to adopt one) likely feels breeders who don't test must fall into the category of either uneducated, careless or greedy. Well, that's my view anyway from seeing Panda suffer with this condition. I have a problem with any breeder who doesn't OFA certify that their breeding dogs are free of this genetic defect... especially if they knew about testing but choose not to do it. Panda (6 years old) has suffered due to her breeder's breeding practices and either ignorance or greed. To me, it's inexcusable. There will always be both extremes of OES breeders... those who are responsible and those who simply throw 2 OESs together for profit... along with all the shades of gray in between. If genetic or temperament problems appear in puppies from untested/uncertified parents and the breeder handles it poorly or foolishly repeats a breeding with genetically defective dogs, word will spread and can eventually put them out of business by harming their reputation. We've seen this happen before. By then however it's too late to prevent a dog's suffering... the dogs produced are destined to live out a life in pain. If a breeder pretests and OFA/CERF all their breeding dogs, only uses healthy breeding stock with good temperaments and stands by their dogs for their lifetime, in my opinion, they’ve taken a huge step toward more responsible breeding and are proving they do care about the dogs they produce. |
Thank you ladies, your last posts were thoughtful and enlightening.  With these you will find people listening and then you can educate. I do not disagree with anything you have said. No matter how frustrated you are, putting someone down or belittling them only turns people off. I have lurked (is that the right term  ) on the forum for over three years and joined a little over a year ago. I rarely post but I do read. I'm sure there are many like me. If you are turning me off ( I have alot experience with training, fostering, and dog behavior), how do you think nasty comments are effecting a novice dog owner?Being passionate is no excuse to be rude or belittle someone. Cyberspace is a great place, but sometimes I think we kinda forget we are addressing real people. All of you are good people (there is a special place in heaven for those who do rescue  ). Please just ask yourself, would I say this to a strangers face  before you submit something on a website, Just some thoughts from a Texan who reads more than speaks |
| Thanks, your point has been made and read. |
| ^^ I take it furry and four paws comment was directed at me since it was after my post and I wasn't excluded. Live with a dog that is suffering from a health condition that might have been prevented and I think you would be saying it face to face. Panda's 6 years old. Arthritis was already setting in by the time she was 9 months old... by the time she arrived at 10 1/2 months, it was too late to do a TPO. When Panda wants to go to bed at night she'll come into the living room and go into the bedroom to let me know she needs a boost on the bed. I boosted her last night and she cried due to the arthritis in her hips and back. Talk about feeling bad.  Panda's x-ray in 2006- http://oesusa.com/PandaXray1.jpg A dog with only a fair OFA hip rating- http://offa.org/img/office/hips_fair.jpg I don't have the recent x-rays we did of her hips that shows the degeneration of her spine. I can't give her an NSAID at the moment because she's taking a supplement to balance out her system yet again (possible low stomach acid that was making her suck the water dish dry). She can't be on both at the same time or she could end up vomiting blood again. (The vet described that incident as "scary".) A time will come when her pain can't be controlled and I don't relish the thought of what I'll have to do. It will break my heart but I won't fail her when that time comes... for dogs like her it has to be quality of life. This beautiful dog was destined to suffer from the day she was conceived because of a genetic defect. We can choose to turn our backs on them (we are her 3rd home and she spent 3 weeks at a shelter in NJ along with a brief stay later on in rescue) or we can stand up and speak for them and try to educate people about why it's important to pretest and OFA/CERF... even it it only lessens the odds of hip dysplasia occurring. So yes, I'll say it face to face. People who do pretest and OFA the hips on their dogs, let me know if this is accurate... It's only $30 to have the Orthopedic Foundation For Animals rate a dog's hips... $40 for hips AND elbows. It mentions something about a kennel rate that's lower- $15 per study for 5 individuals. http://offa.org/pdf/hdappbw.pdf You also have the cost of the x-rays. I had 2 x-rays done on Panda in January... the first hip x-ray was $67 and the second $43... granted prices vary based on location. Now say someone sells their puppies for $800 to $1,200 and doesn't show or compete with their dogs so there are no expenses or overhead for that. Wouldn't the sale of just one puppy more than cover the cost of testing/rating hips on both parents? Consider too the number of puppies produced off each bitch/dog. If nothing else, it just seems to make good business sense to be able to prove to the public via an unbiased 3rd party that your breeding dogs are clear of hip dysplasia. |
furry and four paws wrote: Thank you ladies, your last posts were thoughtful and enlightening. With these you will find people listening and then you can educate. I do not disagree with anything you have said. No matter how frustrated you are, putting someone down or belittling them only turns people off. I have lurked (is that the right term ) on the forum for over three years and joined a little over a year ago. I rarely post but I do read. I'm sure there are many like me. If you are turning me off ( I have alot experience with training, fostering, and dog behavior), how do you think nasty comments are effecting a novice dog owner?Being passionate is no excuse to be rude or belittle someone. Cyberspace is a great place, but sometimes I think we kinda forget we are addressing real people. All of you are good people (there is a special place in heaven for those who do rescue ). Please just ask yourself, would I say this to a strangers face before you submit something on a website, Just some thoughts from a Texan who reads more than speaks Nobody's intention is to belittle anyone! We don't want to scare people off or tick people off! Can I say we are in "the trenches" We do rescue each and every day and we do get frustrated... Jaci(6girls) is one of the biggest supporters of rescue you could ever meet! I do rescue in the south...Jaci and Jim basically do rescue everywhere! They always offer to help wherever they can and they do! I have helped many breeders rehome dogs...no problem with that! It is the breeders that just do not care that bothers me... I am in no way saying Riverbin is this way, I do not know! Honestly, I do not care if any dog is turned into rescue as long as we have that connection! I would rather have that than a dog dumped at a shelter I don't think anybody has said anything bad about Riverbin... Just pointing out what to look for in a breeder... This is what the forum is for...to educate! |
Bogey is from Riverbin. Ok we can't blame the breeder for the dirty face. He will be 2 on April 29. YEAH |
| I found this thread through a Google search since I'm about to purchase a Riverbin puppy. My previous experience has taught me several things 1. Even if you purchase a puppy from a super reputable breeder who is in good standing with their national club, and is involved with rescue, you can still end up with a poor old boy (Bernese Mountain Dog) who has suffered fro HD his whole life (long story regarding why we couldn't do a hip replacement). 2. Anyone who is as accessible as Ruth is, doesn't seem to have anything to hide, she even invited me to call and speak to her vet about her dogs. 3. Just because someone chooses not to show their dogs does not mean they do not produce top quality puppies. Ruth's puppy nursery is better than the nursery that most kids would have. 4. Every breed has is share of enthusiastic cheerleaders who think they know best without having all the facts. One chick who had a sibling of my Berner got extremely ticked when I asked for advice on kidney problems because she wanted to breed hers and didn't want anyone to know there were problems in the line, plus she knew about his HD. Just my opinion formed fro experience. We're very excited about the little guy who will become part of our family next month. |
Braveheartswife wrote: 4. Every breed has is share of enthusiastic cheerleaders who think they know best Yes, they're frequently called the people who do rescue, as well as the people who are involved in the health of a given breed.  Feel free to join the forum and introduce yourself and your new puppy when you get that far. Kristine |
| I've never heard of any problems with this breeder nor her dogs and according to the BBB, though not accredited, she has a great rating. http://www.bbb.org/raleigh-durham/busin ... c-90190861 If there were problems, it seems people would have filed more complaints. You know that some buyers are simply unreasonable and that you can't please everyone. I don't know if this is the case because I don't know the breeder but I have to say from a rescue stand point, if dogs produced aren't suffering from health problems or suffering from improper placement; aren't entering rescues or shelters; and owners have lifetime after sale support... I personally can't complain. I do wish she would verify the minimum of hips, thyroid and eye health through the OFA though... but I wish this of ALL breeders because of what I've been through with my own dogs (3 low thyroid OESs, 1 OES with hip dysplasia and 1 basically blind OES with a cataract in her now one eye). If $26,000 comes in from these two litters, I hope it will be done in the near future. OFA/CERF ratings are a declaration of breeding dog health to the buying public and everyone else. 26 OES puppies and 2 Yorkie puppies all at one time... plus all the adults and breeding cats. I'd be bathing and brushing from sun up to sun down.  I can't imagine trying to keep everyone clean, bottle feeding if there are 16 in just one litter, screening potential buyers, evaluating each individual puppy to match them up with the right owners, socializing and beginning to housetrain them all, monitoring health, worming, vaccinating, etc. Plus all the after sale followup that's required. She must have family or employees helping.Quote: "...A heavy boned foundation reduces the chance of any type of shoulder or hip problems..." It seems that the bigger boned dogs would also be carrying more weight though. So is this accurate? Should we look for this characteristic in a puppy? I see a lot of OESs on Puppyfind being advertised as having show potential... by people who don't show. All the puppies in both Riverbin OES litters are advertised as "show potential" too along with the two Yorkie puppies. I wouldn't think this could be declared until it was determined that all boys had "dropped". So much of this is based on my personal experiences as a buyer... I learned just before getting my boy, you have to bring your balls if you want to play in the show ring.  Is all that's required is a dog be AKC registered and all boys have both testicles or does it take more for a dog to get into the show ring? If that's the case, anyone could show their AKC registered OES but without knowing whether a dog truly meets the AKC standard, they could be wasting time and money. I know nothing about showing dogs other than to keep my hands behind my back so I don't pet them. I think I did that the other weekend with a friend's breeders huge Great Dane too... it's just habit because I want to run my fingers through their fluffy coats. Wanting to learn more... |
| Jaci, You can definitely add stud fees to that 26,000 figure! I discovered something very interesting last night while reading ads on the internet. Robin |
| Ruth is amazing. She produces wonderful healthy pups with great temperaments. I have one and know many who also have pups from Ruth. Not one health issue or behavior problem. Ruth is dedicated to her breeding and has many many years of experience and knowledge. She follows up constantly with all her pups. Any person looking to adopt will be lucky to have one of hers. |
Quote: I have one and know many who also have pups from Ruth. Not one health issue or behavior problem. Do you test? I'm not trying to be prissy about this it's just I don't know anyone experienced enough to say hips, elbows are good, eyes are healthy and thyroid is normal without testing. Maybe you mean they appear to be healthy. Emma's hypothyroid but had no symptoms so I didn't know she had a health issue... it was only through annual screening that we stumbled upon it. (Her littermate sister is too... she did have symptoms early on.) Below is from Dr. Dodds recently... Quote: But the OES breed as a whole is highly susceptible to hypothyroidism and heritable autoimmune thyroiditis. ...just a very common situation in all the OES bloodlines. She had also shared that it's not until 70% of the thyroid gland is damaged that you begin to see weight gain, hair loss, etc. If you visit the following address from the Pet Education section of Drs. Foster & Smith, you'll find a story about hip dysplasia at their clinic. HD too is not always obvious... http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... 40&aid=184 I understand your loyalty to Ruth and again, I am not saying her dogs are any less than wonderful. I would likely adore them too! My son said the other day that if I ever got another OES it should be from Emma & Darby's breeder because of their temperaments and health (though these two littermates both have hypothyroidism ). I had them out together today for a walk and they are a pleasure. Don't get me wrong, they can be naughty but even according to the neighbor lady that tagged along they are nice dogs. But they came from parents that weren't OFA/CERFed... would thyroid have been caught had they been tested? So I have proof that great dogs can come from breeders who don't show so I'm not looking at this from that perspective... it's substantiating the health of breeding dogs. I thought Ruth was on OES.org but I guess I was mistaken... does Ruth test all breeding dogs for thyroid, hips (maybe elbows too), and eyes? When breeders don't OFA/CERF, how do they share test results with buyers? Is it a case of because-I-say-so (I've bought dogs from another breeder based on that!) or do buyers get a copy of all testing done on both parents? You too live with a dog that has joint problems. If you were to buy another puppy, based on everything you now know about what can go wrong and the suffering (and financial expense) that can occur because of it, wouldn't your first requirement be acceptable OFA ratings on hips/elbows to at least TRY to avoid this the next time? We suffer right along with our dogs that are affected with these conditions. If breeders aren't OFA/CERF rating, why aren't knowledgeable buyers asking why? I've got to get a photograph of Panda's back x-ray the next time I go to the vet.... to help you understand that this is NOT about breeder bashing nor that you shouldn't be loyal to your breeder. I'm sure Ruth is a very nice person. I miss Emma, Darby & Kaytee's breeder's knowledge and support! This is all about substantiating good health... that there's a proven and professional way to do this. When breeders OFA and CERF all their breeding dogs, it's out there for both buyers and the general public to view. From the Puppyfind ad- Quote: All pups will meet or exceed the AKC standards. I was stunned when I read this.  This is the very first time I've seen a breeder declare this in a likely legally binding advertisement. Reading the OES AKC standard, it indicates both physical and temperament requirements for the breed. http://www.akc.org/breeds/old_english_sheepdog Aside from the physical attributes, could a buyer get a refund then if their dog ends up shy or nervous? Having purchased one very nervous puppy/dog, I applaud any breeder sticking their neck out to offer this. I am NOT being at all sarcastic. As I've said, so much of this is based on my own personal experiences as a buyer.Also from the Puppyfind ad- Quote: A heavy boned foundation reduces the chance of any type of shoulder or hip problems. Where can I find a medical study to support this? I did a search on Google for this statement and only brought up her advertisements for her litters but nothing to support it. I also searched "large boned" joint problems dog and found just the opposite stated but they surely aren't sites anyone would use to refute it either. Where can I find it? |
| I've never heard of any problems with this breeder nor her dogs and according to the BBB, though not accredited, she has a great rating. http://www.bbb.org/raleigh-durham/busin ... c-90190861 If there were problems, it seems people would have filed more complaints. I just had to go and look to see what the BBB rating for Riverbin is... WOW A+ ... and according to their website they have been breeding OES for over 25 years... and have an A+ rating.... What are the BBB ratings for the people on the list you refer ? Dont know ? Why would you look for Riverbin yet not the people you tell readers to go by from ? Then you come in with lines from their add... have you ever read their contract ? Have you ever even spoke to this breeder ? Do you really know if this breeder test or not..? Really why all the bashing ? Haven't you received the message that people want a kind friendly place to come to .... all the nasty statements are driving people to the other site... and that is not fair to the ones that truly enjoy this site. Maybe if you want to get nasty pick up the phone or do a PM ... dont make all the readers have to swift through all of your personal feels. I understand your dogs must come from Rescue or you have made some really poor decisions, we are all truly sorry for you. Your rescue work is such a blessing... but please try to understand... a lot of people on this sight have pups from Riverbin... you have been told over and over they are healthy, wonderful dogs, some of or dogs are over 10 years old...Maybe you are really hurting some feelings with your personal opinions.... just maybe our dogs have never so much as sneezed and we get our feeling hurt by your constant bashing... maybe for once think about the feelings of others instead of your own. To me one of the biggest insults was posting that people stand on the steps of a car dealership and say I want that one..... does it have leather seats....do you really think the public is that stupid, and that you have to cram your opinions down their throat and if they believe anything other than what you want them to believe then they are stupid ? really ? Let this site be fun... you can state facts and be kind... dont keep trying to make those of us with a Riverbin pup wonder why you keep doing this. Maybe go pick on a breeder that has lots of complaints and produce pups with all kinds of problems... . according to you theres lots of them out there... Riverbin just is not one of them.... we are asking you very nicely...please dont keep driving people from this site...Please dont keep bashing Riverbin and our dogs. Again WOW A+ rating with BBB... over 25 years... just cant get any better than that... I want to end this on a happy note... |
Sheepdog Lover wrote: I've never heard of any problems with this breeder nor her dogs and according to the BBB, though not accredited, she has a great rating. http://www.bbb.org/raleigh-durham/busin ... c-90190861 If there were problems, it seems people would have filed more complaints. I just had to go and look to see what the BBB rating for Riverbin is... WOW A+ ... and according to their website they have been breeding OES for over 25 years... and have an A+ rating.... What are the BBB ratings for the people on the list you refer ? Dont know ? Why would you look for Riverbin yet not the people you tell readers to go by from ? Then you come in with lines from their add... have you ever read their contract ? Have you ever even spoke to this breeder ? Do you really know if this breeder test or not..? Really why all the bashing ? Haven't you received the message that people want a kind friendly place to come to .... all the nasty statements are driving people to the other site... and that is not fair to the ones that truly enjoy this site. Maybe if you want to get nasty pick up the phone or do a PM ... dont make all the readers have to swift through all of your personal feels. I understand your dogs must come from Rescue or you have made some really poor decisions, we are all truly sorry for you. Your rescue work is such a blessing... but please try to understand... a lot of people on this sight have pups from Riverbin... you have been told over and over they are healthy, wonderful dogs, some of or dogs are over 10 years old...Maybe you are really hurting some feelings with your personal opinions.... just maybe our dogs have never so much as sneezed and we get our feeling hurt by your constant bashing... maybe for once think about the feelings of others instead of your own. To me one of the biggest insults was posting that people stand on the steps of a car dealership and say I want that one..... does it have leather seats....do you really think the public is that stupid, and that you have to cram your opinions down their throat and if they believe anything other than what you want them to believe then they are stupid ? really ? Let this site be fun... you can state facts and be kind... dont keep trying to make those of us with a Riverbin pup wonder why you keep doing this. Maybe go pick on a breeder that has lots of complaints and produce pups with all kinds of problems... . according to you theres lots of them out there... Riverbin just is not one of them.... we are asking you very nicely...please dont keep driving people from this site...Please dont keep bashing Riverbin and our dogs. Again WOW A+ rating with BBB... over 25 years... just cant get any better than that... I want to end this on a happy note... Who is we??? We all know Jaci and she is very up front and honest. You, who are hiding the fact that you are the Riverbin breeder is the one that people do not know. Yes, do you think people are stupid? |
| Who is we??? just read this post and you will find seveal people that have posted... that have pups from Riverbin... some post... some do not... No I do not think the public is stupid... quite the opposite... I think the public is very smart...I think the public just wants a site they can come to and have good conversations... some brag... some tell great funny stories... many speak of the love for their pet...some share happy or very sad stories.. some have lots of medical knowledge... some have great knowledge about grooming... and then there are some... well... they seem to be very rude... just asking that maybe all try to make this site a little more plesant. Maybe not so many personal attacks... I am not just talking about Riverbin... I am talking about the whole picture.... maybe just try to be a little nicer to others.... |
| I have read this post over a few times... I have nothing against you at Riverbin, do not know you. Only that you say you have nothing to hide so...why not tell us you are Ruth? Wouldn't this be the 5th time I have asked? If we have ever had a Riverbin dog in rescue I am unaware of that as they don't all come with papers. |
Quote: Really why all the bashing ? Exactly how is this bashing? Didn't I say the following about the Better Business Bureau rating and even INCLUDE the link so people could quickly visit the BBB website to substantiate my statement? It's the exact OPPOSITE of what you've claimed. Here's the link again... it doesn't copy correctly in the quote below- http://www.bbb.org/raleigh-durham/busin ... c-90190861Quote: I've never heard of any problems with this breeder nor her dogs and according to the BBB, though not accredited, she has a great rating. http://www.bbb.org/raleigh-durham/busin ... c-90190861 If there were problems, it seems people would have filed more complaints. You know that some buyers are simply unreasonable and that you can't please everyone. I don't know if this is the case because I don't know the breeder but I have to say from a rescue stand point, if dogs produced aren't suffering from health problems or suffering from improper placement; aren't entering rescues or shelters; and owners have lifetime after sale support... I personally can't complain. Quote: Why would you look for Riverbin yet not the people you tell readers to go by from ? I don't recall telling anyone who to buy a puppy from. Please provide a link... it's possible I did but I can't think of a single breeder I'd recommend without telling them to go through the same list of questions. If you've read the list, it states to ask the same questions of all breeders. In fact, I say that club affiliation should not be a stamp of approval. So please explain. Quote: Then you come in with lines from their add... have you ever read their contract ? These are two very different things... the ads are public, the contract isn't. But ads are binding also. Please go back and re-read my post. I praised this breeder for advertising all puppies will meet or exceed the OES AKC Standard. Quote: I was stunned when I read this. This is the very first time I've seen a breeder declare this in a likely legally binding advertisement. Reading the OES AKC standard, it indicates both physical and temperament requirements for the breed. http://www.akc.org/breeds/old_english_sheepdog Aside from the physical attributes, could a buyer get a refund then if their dog ends up shy or nervous? Having purchased one very nervous puppy/dog, I applaud any breeder sticking their neck out to offer this. I am NOT being at all sarcastic. As I've said, so much of this is based on my own personal experiences as a buyer.Quote: 26 OES puppies and 2 Yorkie puppies all at one time... plus all the adults and breeding cats. I'd be bathing and brushing from sun up to sun down. I can't imagine trying to keep everyone clean, bottle feeding if there are 16 in just one litter, screening potential buyers, evaluating each individual puppy to match them up with the right owners, socializing and beginning to housetrain them all, monitoring health, worming, vaccinating, etc. Plus all the after sale followup that's required. She must have family or employees helping.It's public knowledge based on what the breeder has posted on her own website and in her Puppyfind ads. Emma and Darby came from a duel litters of 19 puppies... did I mention how wonderful their temperaments are? Yes, I did! Quote: To me one of the biggest insults was posting that people stand on the steps of a car dealership and say I want that one..... does it have leather seats....do you really think the public is that stupid, and that you have to cram your opinions down their throat and if they believe anything other than what you want them to believe then they are stupid ? really ? Others can likely answer this. Are you so against educating the buying public? Quote: Do you really know if this breeder test or not..? Didn't I ask the following question? Quote: I thought Ruth was on OES.org but I guess I was mistaken... does Ruth test all breeding dogs for thyroid, hips (maybe elbows too), and eyes? You don't think people should learn from my experiences but that they should only learn from yours? Going back to reread some of your and my private conversations. |
| I don't think anyone who purchased a puppy from Riverbin or the owners of Riverbin kennels should take any of this criticism personally. Those of us who have voiced opinions do so whenever asked. This time it just happened to be about Riverbin. Just insert the name of any kennel and you will get virtually the same comments and opinions. They are not made to offend, only to educate. In this case much of what is being perceived as negative feedback are comments from experienced conformation or rescue people or pet owners who have suffered through problems with their own dogs. All of these people are trying to help someone who came to this forum asking a question about purchasing a puppy. Again, simply based on the lack of health testing on the web site it's a good reason to be wary. Listing the full pedigrees of dogs on the web site would also be very helpful for puppy buyers. The same responses would appear regardless of whether it was Riverbin in question or any other breeder, whether they show or not. If puppy buyers feel their breeder has such outstanding puppies without testing and then decided to do health testing to prove it, they could be exceptional. I wish we had such a breeder to send people just looking for a nice pet to when we have no rescues available. Maybe rather than taking the defensive we'll soon see Riverbin dogs listed on the OFA site? The most important thing is that we love our dogs, regardless of where they come from. What you perceive as damning criticism of your breeding program could actually help your business if you choose to heed any of the advice given. |
| Yes I think you are right ... passion just happens to run very deep. Also sometimes words typed can come across very cold and hard when maybe they are not meant to be. |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: I wish we had such a breeder to send people just looking for a nice pet to when we have no rescues available. You and I (or maybe it was Nancy and I) have discussed this exact thing before. But OFA/CERF ratings are mandatory. As I said, good dogs have come from breeders who don't show. |
| You know, this discussion has made me think: for those of you who have dogs from this (or any) breeder and feel very supportive of that person, here is something you can do to help out: have your dogs health tested - hips/elbows, eyes and thyroid is very doable, though I grant you it costs a fair bit when all is said and done, probably about $400 plus depending on where you are in the country - send the results in to the OFA, and, of course, share the results with the breeder as well. If you're not testing, this goes for any breeder, you often don't really know what you're producing, and that includes as many of the puppies produced as well as the parents. It's hard for most breeders to test entire litters on all counts, but the information can be invaluable - breadth of pedigree is very important in selecting against conditions that have a polygenic mode of inheritance like hips and most likely hearing and autoimmune thyroiditis, and is also important for other diseases which may have a more simple mode of inheritance as an affected puppy indicates both parents are carriers, and siblings have an increased risk of being carriers - important if someone is contemplating breeding the dog - or even affected themselves, which can be important information for owners of littermates. You don't have to be a breeder to test, just the owner of the dog. I can think of several people on the forum who have graciously done this. If anyone has any questions regarding the practical aspects, just ask and any number of people will have the answers. Probably easier to start a new thread, though. Kristine |
| Sheepdog Lover,can you tell me how I should perceive, please don't keep bashing Riverbin and our dogs? Sheepdog Lover, again how would you like for me to perceive,please not so many personal attacks? Sheepdog Lover,and how would you like for me to perceive they,meaning certain people on this forum,seem to be very rude? Didn't you, Sheepdog Lover, attack and write a very negative posts about me on May 25,2011? To write in a thread about someone/something and not identify yourself is to me, a coward. Sheepdog Lover you write, try to be a little nice to others. Will wait for your answer.... Robin |
Now I even want to invoke "cup of tea" rule on this thread.  For everyone! |
| Kristine, I was going to suggest exactly that. Although Heart's mom and dad were tested and results are public on the Heath site, I took it upon myself to get Heart tested when she turned 2. I could have just gotten my vet to rate the exrays, but, I wanted to help my breeder, so I spent the extra money for everything to be sent to OESCA for certification. I am glad I did for a couple of reasons 1) I wanted to be sure that my breeder had this information for any future litters to be assured that my dog had good hips like her mom and dad. 2) At that time, I wanted to get Heart into agility and I didn't want to start until I was sure her hips were sound. I know how much damage all the jumping can do if there are problems to begin with. 3) I am learning from YOU and many other forum members that being aware of any health issues BEFORE the dog shows signs of physical pain helps with managing the issues and giving the dog a better quality of life. 4) In my mind, if everyone who has a puppy has them tested at the right age, and submits a blood sample. H&R will have a much larger database to help this breed with the medical issues that are prevelant...... Thank you to all the forum members who are very passionate about health testing...heath testing...heath testing....IMHO, THAT is the mark of a good breeder ! And thank you to all the people who give of themselves for rescue. They are the true heroes and they can give their opinions to me any day of the week, because they SEE and EXPERIENCE these dogs who have medical/mental issues EVERY DAY, and they continue ..... |
Quote: Yes, do you think people are stupid? I sure do. And they prove it time and time again. |
ButtersStotch wrote: Quote: Yes, do you think people are stupid? I sure do. And they prove it time and time again. Ditto.... |
| Jacklyn. Lots of good points you make. Yes I do have Gigi who has had bilateral shoulder surgery and has hip dysplasia with arthritis. I have also had a pup with hemophelia All this has taught me a lot! This forum has taught me so much! Speaking to breeders has helped me learn more. Being at sheepiepolooza taught me even more! Of course we all love our pups. In the future when ready for another pup, I know what I will do. I will get one from Ruth at Riverbin. Now that is just my opinion. or maybe I will steal Mady,Teddy or charm! Hahahaha Just a note. There are people who are afraid to voice their opinion or thoughts on this forum at times. Some have emailed me to express themselves on what was happening on the forum. |
| I am in the DITTO club too!!!! Robin |
| I ditto as well. This is a fun place. But not ONLY a fun place. It's an informative place. We ask questions, and we give opinion and facts and answers. Those things are not always what we want to hear, or opinions we share but they are almost always useful and interesting. And yes, people in general are morons. Most of present company excluded. Shellie |
| This got rather nasty so backing up a bit... oesmom2 wrote: Jacklyn. Lots of good points you make. Yes I do have Gigi who has had bilateral shoulder surgery and has hip dysplasia with arthritis. I have also had a pup with hemophelia All this has taught me a lot! This forum has taught me so much! Speaking to breeders has helped me learn more. Being at sheepiepolooza taught me even more! Of course we all love our pups. In the future when ready for another pup, I know what I will do. I will get one from Ruth at Riverbin. Now that is just my opinion. Carol, and that's okay. Whatever your choice, you'll be making the decision having had all the knowledge people have shared here on OES.org and also having lived with an afflicted dog. If I wanted a puppy from say Emma and Darby's breeder again, having had a close friendship with the breeder at the time, I would now offer to prepay for a puppy if both parents would be OFA/CERFed prior to breeding. They are perfect companions but it's just that I myself need that information. And you said on another thread that your other breeder "is not on the forum" so I take your word for it. So Sheepdog Lover I don't know who you are. I mistakenly said earlier that I wished the breeder would OFA because I thought I knew that she tested. But it was you who mentioned that all of your dogs have been x-rayed and your vet covers them in depth with you. As passionate as you were in your post, you likely know the breeder well. Rather than asking the question whether I know if the breeder tests or not, you could have shared what you know. This along with the A+ BBB rating that I had shared and that I've never heard of any problems would have gone a long way to supporting this kennel. People here would have simply encouraged the breeder to take the next step of OFA rating the testing already done. Kristine, it seems it might be very beneficial to start another thread about companion OES owners testing and OFA rating their companion OES for those devoted to the breed. The more medical information available to breeders and the public in general, the better the decisions that can be made. We did hip x-rays and thyroid profiles on everyone except Kobuck (I'll schedule thyroid testing) but I don't know if any x-rays are OFA quality. Maybe share what we can ask our vets to do should our dogs just happen to require testing too. Val, thank you for sharing what you've done for both your dog and your breeder. Learning that this will help others better understand the health potential of future dogs. |
| Jaci, That's a great idea about having your own dog tested and starting a database. I wonder, though, if many breeders would want that information out there, outside of their control. Would this path open up owners and testing/certification orgainizations to legal action from breeders? ESPECIALLY the unscruplous ones. On the other hand, if that info was fed back to the breeder, who's to say that the breeder wouldn't just throw it out because it paints their pups in a bad light. Or maybe I'm over thinking this and something like this already exists. |
| All I can say is OFFA.org does keep a database for the public to view. But the owner of the dog has the choice to not have the dog's rating uploaded into the database if they choose that option. What is wonderful about the database is the dog's ancestors along with any prodigy that dog may have produced, are listed if the dog's have been OFA'd,. A wonderful tool for breeders and puppy buyers. Robin |
| Since this thread is somewhat about testing OES for health issues... I would like to know if there is a pretest for Megaesophagus? I so remember the OES from the North Carolina area that needed to be re homed that had a megaesophagus condition.From what I remember reading about this condition is that there could other underlying diseases such as gravis,thyroid and addisons disease. I still think about that puppy often. Robin |
| I heard about that pup...I believe it came from the Woodleaf kennels that has been brought up ... I understand a lot of their dogs ended up in Rescue. From what I heard, not sure if its true...but the breeder instantly did a total refund and had the pup put down. I understand that with such a bad breeding history... lots of problems... including deaf pups, and HD the breeder is no longer in business. Not sure if there is a test for Megaesophagus but from what I heard once the pup arrived in its new home they noticed it within days... so one would think the breeder would have caught it before it ever left there care. I am not sure if that is a condition that is passed from the mother and/or father or if it just happens once in a blue moon. |
| No actually the megaesophagus pup came from Carolina Shores...I think you may be be to google that to find out. I have mentioned Woodleaf Hill Kennels as we have gotten quite a few into rescue from there.. I believe I mentioned Breezey who was attacked by another female at the breeders house and taken to animal control in a very sad condition. She was thankfully pulled last minute by a volunteer in the area who knew we would take her! I do not think that Susan with Woodleaf is still breeding BUT, there are ALOT of her dogs still out there being bred. I know,we are still getting them in  I would like to add in the end of her breeding, Susan did contact rescue for assistance.... One of my own personal dogs is from Woodleaf Hill Kennels and we kept him due to aggression issues. If you google Woodleaf Hill Kennel probably the only dog you will come up with is ours because, he has competed in Rally and that is why we registered him. Going back thinking we should have done an ILP and in the future I would....you learn as you go, sometimes |
| I do see where there was an issue with a pup from Carolina Shores... I was thinking the pup I heard about was from kind of the Charlotte area... maybe not... its been a long time ago... |
Sheepdog Lover wrote: I do see where there was an issue with a pup from Carolina Shores... I was thinking the pup I heard about was from kind of the Charlotte area... maybe not... its been a long time ago... Maybe we are speaking of two different pups.... The one I am speaking of was a few years ago and was rehomed by rescue(not me) |
| Ok I think we're done. |
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