Why dock tails?

I've seen a few sheepies with their tails,I understand the history of docking,but with the Pet sheepies why is it still an automatic thing.I'd love to have one with it's tail I wondered if I could get a breeder to leave their tail on,which led me to wondering why it's still always done.Is there a benifet or reason to have it done. Thanks,just curious

Respond to this topic here on forum.oes.org

It's a tradition to dock with the breed but dogs are bred (in the US and Canada) to be well balanced without the tail. This is always a hot button subject but no reputable breeder would leave a tail on unless there was a medical reason to do so. A reputable breeder is always trying to breed the best example of the breed and they're all docked because, at a couple of days old, they're ALL possible show prospects. It's way too early to just pick and choose some to dock and others not to.

Most (and I say most, not all) people involved with the breed do not want a docking ban imposed on them.

I wasn't looking for a docking ban,I just wanted a puppy with a tail,wondered if that would be a possibility,just thought a breeder might do that if asked. That train of thought then went to I wonder if there is a real reason that tails are still docked.Thanks for the info

Hi this question comes up a lot so here is a thread on it for you to read.

http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=18035

Lot's of thoughts on it, might help anwer your question :wink:

OK, Went to the site lots of info many opinions WOW Wish I never WONDERED ABOUT IT :lol:

Just kidding,Thanks for all the info maybe one with a tail will cross my life someday! :oops:

That is a possibility. Sometimes less than reputable breeders do leave tails on their dogs and sometimes they end up in rescue. We've placed a couple of them. So, unless you're just dead set on a puppy, think about rescue. It won't happen quickly, but if you're willing to wait, you may find one.

In the meantime, I'm sure you've gotten quite an education reading all about the hot topic of docking tails.

It is a passionate subject.

You're doing the best thing you can for now, reading and educating yourself. Bravo.

Hi, just wanted to say welcome to the forum! My boy has a tail because docking is illegal in the UK, of course I would love him either way

Feel free to ask any questions, we are all friendly here

If you want one and no-breeder is willing to fullfill your wishes locally then it's simple buy one from outside of the states, europe Oz etc

When you see a happy wagging tail or the Air Rudder you'll look differently at Docked sheepies.

Archies Slave wrote:

Or you could look for a rescue OES with a tail. Our little foster girl still has her's!

Sammy has a tail and it took a bit of getting used to as we had a docked OES a couple of years prior to getting Sammy and I when I look at a picture of a docked OES to me they look strange now.

Sometimes I think the tails should come with a "warning" as I've ended up with coffee mugs, newspapers etc all go sliding off the coffee table when Sammy tries to 'dust' it for me with his tail but in hot weather it's quite effective as a fan :lol:

There is a tendency to duck when you see the tail coming towards you when they are in a good mood, but after having oes for over 30 years I can tell you they are just as pretty. I have said before, the penelties in Australia for docking pups of any breed and to say a breeder who docks their dogs is a bad breeder, is wrong. A good breeder follows the rules. Cut your little finger off and see!! Sorry if this offends anyone, but move with the times.!

If you look anywhere in the world where there is a docking ban then you will find this certainly was not through breeders wanting the ban, instead it was forced upon the breeders by the so called animal rights orgs.

The same organisations who are trying in some countries to get a law pushed through that pups / young dogs should be speyed or neutered. This is a contradiction then if we breeders are not allowed to dock our dogs because it causes unnecessary pain, then what does speying or neutering cause. ???

I have three sheepies at home with the broom on there backside and they are adorable, but I still long for the real life BOBTAIL.

MING wrote:

Cut your little finger off and see!!

I had a first cousing who had both pinkies removed... well, they were both the 6th finger on his had, but still... I don't think he missed them.

I will bet he had an anesthetic when it happened, just like dogs do when they are neutered. My vet told me they don't use it when docking just in case feeling doesn't return to the area. I too have had litters docked. In the olden days twenty years ago

Ron wrote:

MING wrote:

Cut your little finger off and see!!

I had a first cousing who had both pinkies removed... well, they were both the 6th finger on his had, but still... I don't think he missed them.

Didn't he kill Indigo Montoya's dad?

Yes, I do believe you are correct!! :lol:

My point of wiew:

The tail on our breed is beautyful !!! :hearts:

It shows the mood on our dogs from long distance:

This is a happy ten year old girl.

It is, as already said, easier for the dog to be cleaner behind.

And you don't need to see the thing that could be there.....
.......(the smelly things) :oops:

I love tails! :hearts:

WOW!!!! These tails are SUPREMELY gorgeous!!! Thanks for sharing, please post more!!!

It is so unfortunate that the hopelessly archaic U.S. standard doesn't allow OES owners freedom of choice as far as tail amputation.

Labbetussa wrote:

:D My point of wiew:

The tail on our breed is beautyful !!! :hearts:

MING wrote:

Americans are resistant and very conservative when it comes to these things. I believe the U.S. breed standard will evolve in the future. To be blunt, we just need the current generation of "gate keepers" to die off. These are the same people who defined the breed using such ridiculously pedantic words such as "pot-casse ring" to describer the character of the OES bark! Even the UK standard has evolved.

Cadenza wrote:

MING wrote:

really? I thought that standard was written in the late 1800's ? I would assume those "gatekeepers" would be long gone. From what I see of the current yournger (like in your 30's) breed people - you may not outlast them.

As for the tail hiding the smelly ichy stuff - EWW. ever see an animal die of fly strike? A bit more painful than the momentary discomfort of having a tail removed at 2 days old.

Fly strike; (No we live in a cold area.)
Is this what you fear?
http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/disease ... strike.htm

Fly strike could happend with or without tail, I guess.
I keep my dogs very clean
and cut off the hair around the backdoor,
didn't mean to say that with tail you can skip over
keeping the dog in a good condition.

Absolutely gorgeous pics... especially the one in the water....

Willowsprite wrote:

Absolutely gorgeous pics... especially the one in the water....

Thanks. She was maybe the happiest dog I've ever had;
Always in good mood and look at her tail in this picture, it points right up in the sky, almost forward:

She feels free to be herself and to have a lot of fun.
Her fur is very bad at these pics because Sancho had eaten it up... :roll:

while your dogs tails are nice, it's pretty pathetic you feel you have to come after OUR standard. We had no choice in yours, and frankly, you have thankfully no choice in our.

Ali wrote:

while your dogs tails are nice, it's pretty pathetic you feel you have to come after OUR standard. We had no choice in yours, and frankly, you have thankfully no choice in our.

I think the person that was interested in changing the standard is actually American.

Sancho's person (from Norway) was just showing us her pretty pictures and not pushing anything, I didn't think.

Ali wrote:

while your dogs tails are nice, it's pretty pathetic you feel you have to come after OUR standard. We had no choice in yours, and frankly, you have thankfully no choice in our.

Ali we have had this chat before, it is nor your standard, the standard you have in the states originates unless I am mistaken from the UK, however although I love the original "Bobtail" we now have a docking ban and I am convinced it will come to the states sooner or later.

The breeders fought the ban here but in the end we lost because the lobby from the animal cruelty organizations was more powerful, you have been lucky in the states that they have not managed to get it pushed through but as I said it will come.

Enjoy your dogs as they are as long as you are allowed to have them that way.

Sigh, I get sad when this argument comes up. :cry:

It gets divisive and there's not enough gorgeous sheepies in the world already, IMHO.
I love them ALL for there fabulous, loving, velcro, clownish personalities. Tail or no tail that wont change. Their personalities or me adoring them either.
Please dont argue. :pupeyes:

Debate is OK though

Mim wrote:

Sigh, I get sad when this argument comes up. :cry:

Debate is OK though

My feelings, exactly. Tailed or docked, they are all beautiful sheepies. To consider these sheepies with gorgeous, ravishing, sumptuous feathery tails "defective" animals because of some artificial breed standard concept is just insane.

And I am against a docking ban, I do not believe docking does long term harm to the dog (with the exception of improperly docked dogs -- which probably wouldn't have been docked if the standard didn't oblige it). But why not allow both types of these beautiful animals? After all, 99% (or something close) of dogs have tails. That is truly the problem of the pro-docking side of the argument, they want to impose their preference upon everybody, and that's just un-American.

dairymaid wrote:

Enjoy your dogs as they are as long as you are allowed to have them that way.[/color]

Dairymaid, a different question altogether: how do you say "OES" in German? "Alte Englische Hund" or some such? Danke schön!

Labbetussa,

Are these beaches in Oslo? Looks beautiful! I was recently in Denmark, and felt extremely tempted (but didn't do it in the end) to spend a weekend in Norway. Is King Harald a "dog person"? :-)

Labbetussa wrote:

Willowsprite wrote:

Absolutely gorgeous pics... especially the one in the water....

Thanks. She was maybe the happiest dog I've ever had;
Always in good mood and look at her tail in this picture, it points right up in the sky, almost forward:

She feels free to be herself and to have a lot of fun.
Her fur is very bad at these pics because Sancho had eaten it up... :roll:

I was wondering, in each of the different countries, are docked dogs banned, or just the docking procedure? In other words can you import docked dogs? Could you theoretically export your dog for docking, and then have them return?

In Aust you can't dock but you can import dogs that have been. If you show them you usually have to have proof that they were imported. That usually show up on your paper work when you enter the dog in the show. But one thing I must ask about your dogs. The first pic is classic. Have you ever thought of using it on cards with the caption underneath saying "Does my butt look big in this?'

Another thought... I believe the ban was brought in to stop backyard breeders, who did their own dogs, from causing any more harm on pups. Unfortunatly not everyone takes their animals to an experienced vet to have this done. I have had dogs with and without tails and I must admit I do miss that bum that can wag like it is an entity all of it's own. I guess it's like so many other things in life ..everyone pays the price for a few prawns. :roll:

Ron wrote:

In most countries in Europe the docking ban is what it says a docking ban.

For example in Germany if your dog was docked before the 01/06/1998 then you can still show it in Germany and as far as I know the same rules apply in Denmark 01/06/1996 and the UK 01/04/2008.

Therefore you cannot send a dog out of the country and get it docked to be returned at a later stage, there is no law about buying a docked dog but restrictions in showing it. therefore in my opinion no point in looking for a docked OES in the first place.

To docking in general, I personnally prefer a docked OES for a number of reasons, 1) there gait is better, 2) they are not so destructive at home, the broom at the reverse end knocks everything flying if you are not careful, just to mention a couple.

Now after over ten years docking ban in Germany I have become used to the tail and it has its good points, of course it is nice to see a wiggle bum when you get home, although it is even nicer to see an OES with a tail welcoming you, there backside does not get so dirty, they can definately steer better with the tail, as far as communication is concerned I am not so sure on that subject as I never had any problems with my old ones.

To the question an Old English Sheepdog has the same name in German or its called a Bobtail.

Ali wrote:

while your dogs tails are nice, it's pretty pathetic you feel you have to come after OUR standard. We had no choice in yours, and frankly, you have thankfully no choice in our.

This was not ment to be about YOUR standard nor the UK standard.
Pardon my ignorance, I didn't know that you had no choice! :oops:

Like Dairymaid loves the docked Bobtail, I love the tailed Old English Sheepdog.

I wonder if it is more a habbit, whether you like them with or without the tail?!
Sancho is my third Old English and all of them were undocked
and I would only dock my dog if I had to do so for a good reason.

Mim wrote:

I love them ALL for there fabulous, loving, velcro, clownish personalities. Tail or no tail that wont change. Their personalities or me adoring them either.
Please dont argue. :pupeyes:

Debate is OK though

Me too!!! Tail or docked
- I love them ALL for there fabulous, loving, velcro, clownish personalities. :hearts:

Cadenza wrote:

Is King Harald a "dogperson" :?:

I 'll ask him...... :lol:

His father King Olav was very much connected to his dogs,
and I think they always were named "Troll".

The beach at the pickture is at Hvasser/Tjøme
120 km south of Oslo on the west side of the Oslofjord.
It is nice in the summertime,
we never knows how the weather is though......... :roll:

Ron wrote:

Like Dairymaid says, in most of the countries in Europe it is forbidden
to dock part like ears and tales off only for it outfit or good looking.
In Norway it has been forbidden by law to dock ears since 1954 and tales since 1988.
We can buy docked puppies from countries where there is no docking ban,
however it will not be possible to show the dog.

We are not allowed to show docked dogs anymore
even if the are born in countryes with no docking ban.

Your last question is a tricky one;
If the dogs are docked, no matter where,
just to look better, it will not be legal to show them in Norway.

Funny how some people get so emotive.

At the end of the day I am really glad my boy has a tail, I make no appologies for that.

I do however find some people borderline offensive in this debate, what is with the us vs the rest of the world attitude - the us was collective of a group of people not the U.S. before anyone jumps down my throat. :wink:

The animal has a tail, if it wasn't meant to it would not have one, as dogs all come from wolves who all have tails.

Docked tails are a human fashion or requirement, people will justify docking with all manner of reasons but at the end of the day, without a human removing them they would all have them.

I certainly am not going to try and impose my will on others and simply agree to differ.

Archies Slave wrote:

what is with the us vs the rest of the world attitude - the us was collective of a group of people not the U.S. before anyone jumps down my throat. :wink:

That is just it. Exactly why the US was formed to begin with. So the people had the right & opportunity to have their say & make decisions without the government getting in the way all the time. In our country, you will find that the majority of the people pushing anything anti-docking or anti-cropping are people who don't even OWN dogs!!!! Their entire agenda is to eliminate pet ownership & purebred breeding. They want to take away our right to have the type of dog we choose.....that's the bottom line. And it extends to cats, birds, cattle, horses etc. It is a classic case of "give them an inch & they will take a mile". I don't have a problem with them telling me a certified vet has to do tail dockings. We have always had a vet do them & very humanely. But don't tell me I can't do it at all anymore.

Off my soapbox now.

i cannot tell a tale :lol:

i would be very sad with this breed in my life tail or no tail and i will never turn my back on this breed over a tail. :hearts:

ChSheepdogs wrote:

[That is just it. Exactly why the US was formed to begin with. So the people had the right & opportunity to have their say & make decisions without the government getting in the way all the time. In our country, you will find that the majority of the people pushing anything anti-docking or anti-cropping are people who don't even OWN dogs!!!! Their entire agenda is to eliminate pet ownership & purebred breeding. They want to take away our right to have the type of dog we choose.....that's the bottom line. And it extends to cats, birds, cattle, horses etc. It is a classic case of "give them an inch & they will take a mile". I don't have a problem with them telling me a certified vet has to do tail dockings. We have always had a vet do them & very humanely. But don't tell me I can't do it at all anymore.

Off my soapbox now.

If it's so terribly cruel to dock tails we shouldn't be so casual about amputating other parts of our dogs anatomies like, say, testicles, the removal of which is a nice convenience, but carries increased short and long term health risks to the dog. With this in mind I would expect countries which have imposed docking bans to be consistent in their thinking and similarly have castration bans, except for medical emergencies. And I own a neutered male, don't get me wrong. There's a time and a place and it should be the owner's decision to make.

You can have undocked OES in the US. To your heart's content. Just find a breeder who agrees with your choice and go for it. Or import one. Lots of pictures of pretty European and Australian tailed OES on the forum. Or breed your own and don't dock. Makes no difference to me.

Point being, in the US, you legally still have this old-fashioned concept known as choice.

Kristine

Mad Dog wrote:

You can have undocked OES in the US. To your heart's content. Just find a breeder who agrees with your choice and go for it. Or import one. Lots of pictures of pretty European and Australian tailed OES on the forum. Or breed your own and don't dock. Makes no difference to me.

Point being, in the US, you legally still have this old-fashioned concept known as choice.

Kristine

Hi, Kristine.

Except that this choice in the U.S. is not real. Sure, if you have $$$ and commensurate means, you can breed your own, buy in Europe, etc. But until the official OES breed standard is changed to allow tailed dogs, it is in effect saying, "either cut off your dog's tail, or you are not welcome at the party." It's like a "separate but equal" thing, that had to be done away with by Congress with the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

A states or federal docking ban is a reasonably easy target to achieve politically. Just get an Angelina Jolie-type celebrity to sign-up as spokesperson for the cause, and have her ask her impressionable fans to write letters to Congress. And if you are fearful of the Animal Rights fundamentalists taking over pet ownership agenda, then you decidedly should support tailed/docked choice in the breed standard, because right now it seems so radicalized that dog owners (not just in OES breed) who sympathize with a docking ban have no recourse but align with these extremists in the Animal Rights factions. If they could align with the more rational, moderate position allowing choice, it would be much better for all.

Cadenza wrote:

Mad Dog wrote:

I don't think there could be a better reply. Certainly better than I could have put it without treading on anyones toes.

Believe it or not, I too, believe in freedom of choice.

Maybe any perceived change is more of a challenge to this breed because of the very name BobTail?

Cadenza wrote:

Mad Dog wrote:

dairymaid wrote:

I do not think this is what Kristine means, the Americam standard states the tail should be docked when not naturally bobbed, this was the standard in all countries until a group of animal rights people got together and managed to get docking banned. Kristine is mearly pointing out it is your own choice if you want to have an OES with tail or not, only it will be difficult to find a breeder who will leave the tail undocked in the states.

Exactly, Stewart. We do have breeders who will leave tails on. How else do we end up with tailed dogs in rescue? You're less likely to find a reputable breeder who will do so. If they wanted a tailed breed, presumably they would have been drawn to such a breed in the first place. But at a herding instinct test last year we did have one tailed dog entered from a breeder whose name most of you on the forum would know and no one tarred and feathered the breeder or the owners. Their dog, their choice.

I am not sure but I do not think there is a rule against showing a tailed OES at shows in America although the chances of winning are definately reduced. To compete against a docked OES where the gait can definately be seen better is extremely difficult. I get the impression with mine they do not know what to do with their tail sometimes.

Correct again. As it stands, you can definitely show with a tail. It doesn't happen often, but the few I've seen have generally done reasonably well. The tail does indeed make it harder to discern correct movement. It also makes the dog look long-backed and disproportionate, even when it is not. And it just generally distorts the outline of the dog. When you see both in the ring together you honestly think you are looking at two different breeds.

This debate willl go on until every country has a docking ban and then the animal rights have to think about their next challange and it will start all over again, so lets just enjoy our sheepies as they are with or without TAIL.

Well said, Stewart. Look at what's happening in the UK. Now that they managed to bully through the docking ban so you no longer have a choice as to tail or not, the new standard the KC proposed to try to placate the animal rights organizations also does not allow for removal of dew claws. Better to wait till the dog grows up and rips them so they can have surgery. :roll:

Oh, and now the OES is "too hairy". Not sure what we're supposed to do about that since it's genetically programmed except stop breeding them all together I guess.

By the time all is said and done OES as a breed will be gone. I'm with you. Love them while you can and remember them well :kiss:

Kristine

Ali wrote:

while your dogs tails are nice, it's pretty pathetic you feel you have to come after OUR standard. We had no choice in yours, and frankly, you have thankfully no choice in our.

Out of tea?

Although in Europe we have got used to the tail now we are discussing how it should be carried, any show you go to you will seldom see two OES who carry their tails the same way. It was always a hard task for judges at a show now it is even more difficult with the tail.

As Kristine points out the dog now looks longer although they are basically the same dog with a tail, the average tail on a male dog is about 3-4 cm (3/4") thick and that thing cannot go anywhere except over the butt and between its legs, then you have the long coat which sticks out over the tail hence a streeeetch bobtail.

I must admit I prefer a sheepie with less coat, eg. with Zorro I need as much time and patience to groom him as I do for Hamish and Misty together. At the weekend I spent about eight hours getting hi,m back in show coat, waistcoat, shirt, vest, and pants, this boy has enough coat to make a few other sheepies happy as well.

Unforunately we openly discuss docking and we give our opinions freely I just wish we would start being so open about the diseases which threaten our dogs then we would be going in the right direction.

I will be at Zorro's breeder next week so I will take a couple of photo's to try and show the difference before and after a show.

Cadenza wrote:

Mad Dog wrote:

You really aren't trying to equate race with the arbitrarty ability to join a breed club - which by its very nature is an organization of like minded individuals who determine the bred standard? I find it offensive and disgusting. You have no idea how insulting that is.

kerry wrote:

[You really aren't trying to equate race with the arbitrarty ability to join a breed club - which by its very nature is an organization of like minded individuals who determine the bred standard? I find it offensive and disgusting. You have no idea how insulting that is.

I'm pretty sure that was the point, Kerry :lol:

I have yet to quizz anyone I've sponsored for membership on their stance on tail vrs no tail. I tend to prefer to support their membership based on their obvious committment to the breed in terms of rescue or performance or health issues or...? In fact, I'm about to write a recommendation for one such applicant who is very actively committed on all three of the counts I mentioned, and I'm honored to do so.

There are some breed clubs that are notoriously hard to get into, but ours isn't one of them, so that nonsense just doesn't fly. If there is a cadre of new and eager health conscious breeder wannabes ready to step in and give us evil gatekeepers the heave-ho for our archaic ideas and take over the hard work that needs to be done in terms of the health issues the breed faces, which - yes, bless you, Stewart - are so much more important than whether Fluffy has a tail or not, I'm not seeing them.

I have a teleconference tonight with a group of likeminded evil gatekeepers :wink:

where we will be discussing lymphoma research possibilities. And since lymphoma doesn't care if the dog it kills has a tail or not, I'm pretty sure any benefits derived from future research will apply to all OES equally.

Kristine

Mad Dog wrote:

kerry wrote:

[You really aren't trying to equate race with the arbitrary ability to join a breed club - which by its very nature is an organization of like minded individuals who determine the bred standard? I find it offensive and disgusting. You have no idea how insulting that is.

I'm pretty sure that was the point, Kerry :lol:

Kristine

You have no idea how angry this is making me - I have resisted an urge to just quit the forum and tell them all where to go and yes I know this is not a pm!!!!

It just goes to show how ignorant people are. Anyone who lived through the civil rights era of this country - who took a vacation to the south as a child and saw whites only signs should be equally appalled at the suggestion that this is the same thing as requiring people who choose to own a specific breed of do abide by the standard that defines that "created" breed of dog, never mind anyone who lived closer to it. I remember in the 1970's a friends new house was burnt to the ground because they had the nerve to move into a formally white neighborhood and they were a family of color - and this was in NYC. To equate this with the ability to have an AKC (optional) registered dog with a tail is beyond me and negates any credibility the person making the argument may have had.

I think one of the biggest parts of this that people overlook is that a "choice" for a breeder to leave a tail on will be a lot more difficult than you would think. Most reputable breeders will want to bob the tail. Hands down. When a reputable breeder breeds their dogs, they're trying to improve their breeding stock and all dogs at birth are potential show prospects. At a couple of days old, you can't tell what dogs are going to be pet quality or show quality but if you're going to dock, you have to do it at a couple of days old. So, you're either docking all or leaving all. There's really no choice to be made. The only people that will leave tails on are the same people that do now-- puppy mills and backyard breeders. So, if you want a tailed dog, you'll be supporting that industry. Maybe even furthering the problem if you have people starting to breed with tails on just to have a novelty to sell. Choices sound like a nice idea but it would end up being more of a mess.

Whether you support docking or not docking, the only way to add any credibility to your arguments is to get involved with the breed club. I don't like when people just stand at the sidelines, trying to impose their ideas on us when they don't want to take the time to be a part of things and make their voices heard where it matters.

The idea of trying to get a celebrity involved and writing Congress sends me through the roof. Great idea! Let's get people involved who know nothing about dogs and dog breeding to pressure more people who know nothing about dogs to influence decisions for those that do.

For the record, as part of the "newer" generation involved in the breed club, I have yet to see any indication that the view on docking is changing, neither with myself or my peer group.

kerry wrote:

Mad Dog wrote:

kerry wrote:

I'm pretty sure that was the point, Kerry :lol:

Kristine

Kerry it is a sad day when someone quits the forum because of a discussion about tail docking, and unfortunately there is a comparison, then what people fought for years ago a thing called freedom, this right has been taken away from most of the breeders in Europe, we no longer have the right to decide if we dock a dog or leave the tail on.

Civil right groups who fought for the right of freedom of speech and that all humans are equal reached their target and that is good, but today that same freedom is being taken away by the different goverments with their different laws.

I agree that tail docking doesn't rise to the level of the pain this country has gone through and is still going through due to race relations. I think while there might be some parallels in the fact there are some rights to individual behavior involved, that can be said about anything the government regulates, so we don't have to go to such an extreme to find an apropos example.

How about it's the equivalent of requiring wearing seat belts?
Or bicycle helmets?
Or rabies vaccinations?

Hi again , Christine.

If the taillessness is so unimportant (as you state below) to membership, and dogs without tails are actually being shown, then why not formally remove the obligatory docked criteria from the standard? As one of the gatekeepers, maybe you could suggest it.

Otherwise, thank you for all the work you do for the breed. It is very important and this debate in no way diminishes the effort you put in.

Mad Dog wrote:

kerry,

I'm devastated that you are angry. I apologize for my ignorance and hope you feel better!

Warm regards, Cadenza.

ButtersStotch wrote:

I
Whether you support docking or not docking, the only way to add any credibility to your arguments is to get involved with the breed club.

I definitely agree with this statement. In the next year, once I remove a handful of commitments from my plate, I will be looking at joining OES breed clubs. I firmly believe this breed deserves to be more popular than it is. In the 1 year and 5 months I've had my OES, I only ran into a total of four other sheepies. I have excellent management skills and would be an asset to any club. When time comes will you sponsor my membership? :-)

ButtersStotch wrote:

I
The idea of trying to get a celebrity involved and writing Congress sends me through the roof. Great idea! Let's get people involved who know nothing about dogs and dog breeding to pressure more people who know nothing about dogs to influence decisions for those that do.

Yes, I dislike the way politics is done in this country, but remember there are many knowledgeable, experienced dog owners who are also in favor of a docking ban. Their voices will add legitimacy to the cause.

I personally don't think cruelty is an issue; as others pointed out, dew claws and neutering also involve amputation of body parts. But these procedures serve important specific purposes, other than mere subjective aesthetics.

MING wrote:

Have you ever thought of using it on cards with the caption underneath saying "Does my butt look big in this?'

little bear wrote:

i cannot tell a tale :lol:

i would be very sad with this breed in my life tail or no tail and i will never turn my back on this breed over a tail. :hearts:

Sorry I am writing things wrong....
..my english is not much good
and I see too late that my spelling is really bad. :cow:

Difficult to wag a tale isn't it...... :lol:

Ron wrote:

Yes, let us keep our feet more on the ground, please.

To discuss openly about the right to dock or not to dock is fine and you can see the differences of opinions from both sides of the pond. When the ban was being considered here in Germany I heard a few breeders comment that they would stop breeding, needless to say or rather thankfully they never stopped breeding.

Genetic & other Disease's

When we can be so open about a docking ban then it beats me why we cannot be so open about the Genetic Diseases which are threatening our and other wonderful breeds. Zorro's breeder was open about having PCD in two of her litters, it takes a very brave person to make this public especially in the OES magazine. But unfortunatly it does not matter which forum you are in diseases are a tabu and no one is prepared to talk about them.

I wonder when people will realise that if we continue like this we are only giving animal rights groups ammunition to fire back at us in the press and to have it brought up in the different parliments / senates, when are we going to realise the lobby they have, what they are acheiving in different parts of the world, it is only a matter of time before all we have are mutts.

Bad judging

Something else that gets discussed and has a great influence in the breed is bad judging, this was one of the reasons I stopped showing, it annoying to see a dog being awarded a "very good" because he has some uneven teeth and a bitch being awarded an "excellant" and then the BOB who was at least 1" under the minimum height in the european standard.

The excellent should only be given too a dog / bitch who is as near as possible to the perfect dog, a dog who is smaller the minimum height cannot be anywhere near the perfect dog for many reasons so either we are seeing favoritism or pure ignorance towards our breed. You see so many judges picking their favorites from the wrone side of the lead.

Champions do not necessary create champions and a good stud dog does not necessary need to be a champion, he / she just have to pass on their good points, it would be nice to see some breeders getting out of the habit of using the POPULAR SIRE and starting using their heads to pick a stud dog.

dairymaid wrote:

Something else that gets discussed and has a great influence in the breed is bad judging, this was one of the reasons I stopped showing, it annoying to see a dog being awarded a "very good" because he has some uneven teeth and a bitch being awarded an "excellant" and then the BOB who was at least 1" under the minimum height in the european standard.

May I remember that the standard says:
"Teeth strong, large and evenly placed"

while regarding to size
"Type and symmetry of greatest importance, and on no account to be sacrified to size alone"

Many judges don't care about the teeth, but if they do you can't say they are judging badly.

The standard also doesn't put upper limits on height but in practice it's very difficult for big dogs (and specially big bitches) to get high honours and that, for me, is more against the standard than putting up a undersized dog.

SeaLords wrote:

May I remember that the standard says:
"Teeth strong, large and evenly placed"

Yes you are correct the breed standard does say so, although we are seeing teeth getting smaller and may I remind you we have a problem with dropped teeth in Europe, furthermore please explain how we will retain large, strong teeth when the dogs are getting smaller, sorry doesn't fit together.

SeaLords wrote:

while regarding to size
"Type and symmetry of greatest importance, and on no account to be sacrified to size alone"

Many judges don't care about the teeth, but if they do you can't say they are judging badly.

The standard also doesn't put upper limits on height but in practice it's very difficult for big dogs (and specially big bitches) to get high honours and that, for me, is more against the standard than putting up a undersized dog.

There are many things in the breed standard which can be interperated differently, size is definately not one, the breed standard has a minimum size for dogs / bitches, and as you correctly state no upper limit, so why do the judges prefer a smaller dog / bitch when they are under the size given in the standard but ignore a dog / bitch which in most judges opinion are too large.

When judging a dog as you quote "type and symmetry of gretest importance and on no account to be sacrificed to size alone" unquote does this mean teeth are more important than the the fore mentioned quote ?, sometimes when I am in the ring I get the impression either some judges do not know the standard or they have forgotten it since they passed their test.

What is of greater importance a dog / bitch who is square, good harsh coat with plenty of profusion and good movement but he has large strong but some uneven teeth or a dog who is under the minimum height, a little long and cannot have the same large teeth due to its size.

Yes I still say this is either bad judging or pure ignorance on the part of the judge, then the FCI state in their rules that a judge should make him / herself familiar with the breed standard before judging the dogs.

I just read this in the talking points from NAIA:

In Sweden, when tail docking was banned, it was rescinded within two years due to increased injuries among dogs.

DO we have any members who know if its true?

dairymaid wrote:

Yes, we have a problem with teeth, but that has nothing to do with the dogs getting smaller. May I remind you that this wording comes from the beginning of the breed, when the minimum size for males was set at 56 cm?

dairymaid wrote:

Well, that's the problem of shows. The judge judges based on his/her interpretation of the standard and his/her preferences within the latitude given by the standard. I'd prefer a more objective way to evaluate breeding stock (such as is done in Boerboels, for instance) but, well, that's what we have.

dairymaid wrote:

When judging a dog as you quote "type and symmetry of gretest importance and on no account to be sacrificed to size alone" unquote does this mean teeth are more important than the the fore mentioned quote ?,

There isn't a table of points to guide judges, so the importance they attribute to a certain feature is the importance they attribute to that feature, which may be different from the importance that I or you attribute to that feature.

dairymaid wrote:

Yes I still say this is either bad judging or pure ignorance on the part of the judge, then the FCI state in their rules that a judge should make him / herself familiar with the breed standard before judging the dogs

How long have you being showing? I have a big collection of anedoctes, but that hasn't discouraged me. Needless to say, when I come across an ignorant judge, I don't show him any more dogs. That's the only weapon that, at this time, the exhibitors have, as, once approved to judge a breed, a judge cannot be "destituted".

kerry wrote:

I think that's true but only for gundogs.

SeaLords wrote:

dairymaid wrote:

I never said the problem we are having with teeth is coming from the dogs getting smaller, I was asking how you expect to get large strong teeth from a small OES. Furthermore the wording comes from the first breed standard not from the beginning of the breed which was much earlier, so does that mean we ignore the standard today because we know better.

SeaLords wrote:

dairymaid wrote:

That is the one our problem we are all willing to accept what the judge says and no one dare critizise their decision although we know it may be wrong. We pay a lot of money to go to show our dogs to some judges who have no idea what they have in front of them or give the CC's to thier friends or fellow judges, of coarse we talk behind closed doors about this but certainly not openly.

SeaLords wrote:

dairymaid wrote:

Oh there used to be a table of points for judging an OES but some people in their infinate wisdom done away with this years ago which I still class as a big mistake. Every judge and most breeders have a type they like and the find certain features more important than others, but the dog should be seen as a whole and not just partly then everything should fit together to make the complete picture.

SeaLords wrote:

dairymaid wrote:

I have been showing my dogs since 1996 and in that time seen many questionable decisions made by so called judges, in October last year I threw in the hand towel because what we are seeing is definately not doing the breed any good. The influence bad judging is having on our breed has been discussed at the Euro OES show but nothing gets done about it we just carry on "business as usual".

Over the years we have become too dependant on becoming the Excellent at shows and most show people think a Very Good is an insult which it is not, only dogs which are as near too the written standard as possible should receive the Exc. but I am crtain if some judges had the perfect dog under them they would probably give it a good.

Unfortunately we are at the infinate wisdom of judges and their idea what an OES should look like and how they interperate the breed standard and over the years our ovely breed has changed but unfortunately not to the advantage of the dog but to the advantage of some people who want to see the OES the way they think it should be.

When we continue this way our wonderful breed as we still know it will become extinct.

dairymaid wrote:

I never said the problem we are having with teeth is coming from the dogs getting smaller, I was asking how you expect to get large strong teeth from a small OES.

Simple, big heads and strong jaws. Strong jaws are a rarity at the moment. How many dogs do you know that have the lower incisives in a straight line?

dairymaid wrote:

That is the one our problem we are all willing to accept what the judge says and no one dare critizise their decision although we know it may be wrong.

Well in my country (and I guess this comes from the FCI) the show regulations clearly say that the decisions of the judge cannot be discussed, and when you enter a dog in a show you sign the form saying that you know and accept the regulations.

dairymaid wrote:

We pay a lot of money to go to show our dogs to some judges who have no idea what they have in front of them or give the CC's to thier friends or fellow judges, of coarse we talk behind closed doors about this but certainly not openly

Well, I've for a long time talked openly on the favors certain judges give to their fellow judges and friends. What have I gained? I was called jealous, and that my dogs were put behing because they were of lower quality. Nowadays I simply know when to stay at home ...

dairymaid wrote:

The influence bad judging is having on our breed has been discussed at the Euro OES show but nothing gets done about it we just carry on "business as usual".

Bad judging influences ALL breeds and, yes, I think that too many judges don't realize how important their role is. And frankly I think that "business will continue as usual". I've proposed to do a black list of judges but, hey, people talk but when they are called to put black on white they stay quiet.

kerry wrote:

It's not. It sounds like misinformation manipulated to support a pro-docking position, which ultimately only weakens NAIA's argument. Even the American Veterinary Medical Association, the most authoritative veterinary professional body in the U.S., has come out unequivocally against cosmetic docking:

"The AVMA opposes ear cropping and tail docking of dogs when done solely for cosmetic purposes. The AVMA encourages the elimination of ear cropping and tail docking from breed standards."

So politically, if one wants to "save" the practice of cosmetic docking in the U.S., the best strategy might in fact be to allow freedom of choice within the breed standard.

Cadenza wrote:

kerry wrote:

It's not. It sounds like misinformation manipulated to support a pro-docking position, which ultimately only weakens NAIA's argument. Even the American Veterinary Medical Association, the most authoritative veterinary professional body in the U.S., has come out unequivocally against cosmetic docking:

Sorry - what are you basing the statement its not on? I am really only looking for facts here, not opinions.

"The AVMA opposes ear cropping and tail docking of dogs when done solely for cosmetic purposes. The AVMA encourages the elimination of ear cropping and tail docking from breed standards."

Well yeah based on their Animal Rights Infiltrated loudest speakers.

So politically, if one wants to "save" the practice of cosmetic docking in the U.S., the best strategy might in fact be to allow freedom of choice within the breed standard.

Well politically are best approach is to speak out against everyone spreading fallacies about the issue and stop being silent while the loudest minority defines the issue.

So this tail docking has everything to do about dog showing and breeding? If a sheep dog is not docked it didn't come from a reputable breeder? That ALL good sheepdogs come from what are called a "reputable breeder"? My "Will" was to be a breeding dog according to the people who gave him to me. They had a bitch that they were going to breed him with but they had to move to another state and gave her away to someone else. My "Will Has a stub that is about 3-5 inches long. I would assume he didn't come from a reputable breeder because he has a tail? Does this mean his breeders, who ever they are, were NOT good breeders? Does the temperament and personality have anything anymore to do with a good dog or is it all about the tails and show dogs? I came to this forum because the other lists were kinda snobbish about sow dogs and didn't like the ideas of pet owners. I am still learning as I have only had my dog for about a year now. I wanted to learn more about this breed and what makes them tick and share my stories with others who love their dogs. Again, I am learning so be patient with me please. I am an older man and really don't understand all the fuss about the tail thing outside of my dog has a stub. I thought it was cute and different. I see all of these pretty pictures of eveyones sheepdog on the side of their comments. Some of you have some beautiful dogs. You must work very hard doing this or are just wealthy and don't have to work and brush these dogs every day all day. As for me, I will take my dog and sit in a boat with him and fish all day while he watches the poles. My hat is off to you. They are beautiful.

Your dog isn't any less of a great dog because of his breeder. Both of my OES have been rescues from non "reputable" breeder heritage, and Jake (the guy in my picture) was a super dog, brave and protective and my current guy Mulligan is so very smart and wiggly and we've loved them both.

The term "reputable" is kind of unfortunate, but it is the best term that we've been able to settle on. It only refers to a breeder who has certain characteristics: In the US they must adhere to the Old English Sheepdog Club of America's (OESCA) Breeder Code of Ethics. That says that they must have a breeding program designed for the betterment of the breed which includes things like breeding dogs and bitches that are of a proper age, that they are tested for known genetic defects before breeding. They must be breeding their dogs towards the description of the "perfect" OES, which is described in the "breed standard" set down in the USA by the OESCA. One of the parts of the breed standard in the US is that the puppy's tail is to be docked.

If the puppy's tail is not docked, the breeder isn't following the standard, they cannot be adhering to the Code of Ethics and cannot be considered "reputable". That's all.

Now there are other things that make a breeder less than desirable (for example the way they treat their dogs) but that's not necessarily what is being talked about.

Welcome to the community. You've hit one of the hottest and most controversial topics, so I think you'll find a lot more love and agreement on this board about other topics!

Welcome Walter and Wags!! I envy your ability to sit in the boat and fish all day and it sounds like you and your dog have a great relationship - does he swim? My male loves to swim, my female prefers to be dry - all the time, she even checks out the window to see if its raining before she'll go out for a walk

Regardless of where our dogs come from, we all love them :wink:

Well Ron and Kerry

I think I am alittle out of my league in this forms discussion. I don't understand some of the things these other people are talking about? The size of teeth? I would think that what ever the size of teeth, small or large, if they were to bite with that jaw power they have, IT WOULD HURT! Thank you Ron for your explanation on this and with what they call "Reputable Breeder". I don't think I completely understand. I will have to do some more studying on this and look under the Club you gave me to understand what is going on? Sometimes I think people make things much more difficult than this breeding thing was intended to be. (just my opinion) If we were to select human breedings the way we do dogs? We would be in a world of hurt. Your teeth are too small? Your legs are too small, Your tail is too long?

Kerry, to answer your question about "Will" swimming skills? No! He is not a good swimmer. He is alittle better than my anchor on the boat. He will swim some but he doesn't like it too much in the water. I have a life vest I put on him so he and I stand a chance to get to shore or be rescued. I will say that on land, That dog will find the littliest bit of water and make a mud hole into a giant swimming pool from head to toe. He goes in the boat because he likes being with me and when I catch a fish he knows. He gets right up the the boat side and he watches as I get the net and bring the fish in. I have a real good story about Will in one of my first fishing trips with him. We were fishing from the bank. I had my chair and I was catching some fish. Will was wondering around on the bank. The next thing I knew, I saw him rolling. I called him over and he had this gross smell all over him. I got out of my chair to see what it was? Someone caught some bottom feeders and threw them on the upper bank and they were nice and ripe. Will found them and rolled all in the mess. Will got to ride home in the back of the truck. He thought he had found something cool until he was going home in the back of his favorite truck.

I'm sorry for the intrusion on this section. It's over my head with the tail and teeth thing. I will go and learn what you are talking about and be back. Thank you Ron.

WagginTails wrote:

If we were to select human breedings the way we do dogs? We would be in a world of hurt. Your teeth are too small? Your legs are too small, Your tail is too long?

Well, maybe I should have started off by mentioning that humans pretty much created all of the different dog breeds that there are by selectively breeding them in the first place. The "Old" English Sheepdog is only a couple of hundred years old if I recall correctly.

Fortunately the folks who have tried to alter society by selectively breeding humans on a large scale have so far failed.

History of the breed:

The earliest portrayal of the Old English Sheepdog on canvas is in a painting by Gainsborough dated 1771. This depicts the Duke Of Buccleugh with his arms round what was then probably called 'a bobtail collie' but by today's standard, it is obviously an Old English Sheepdog.

Some dog historians have speculated as to the possibility of the bobtail descending from the Russian Owtchah which was very large with a blue grizzled harsh coat. The theory being that the Russian sheep-herding dog reached Scotland with the Baltic sailing ships and was crossed with the old Scottish Bearded Collie. Others suggest that the Briard, a French Sheepdog, was introduced. The Welsh have also laid claim to the Old English Sheepdog. However, Mr Edward Lloyd proved that they originally came from the South Downs of Sussex in England. Despite the breed being described as "old", there is no evidence to suggest it has existed for more than 200 years.

In the South of England, the Bobtail was known by several alternative names including the Smithfield, Cotswold Sheepdog or Cor and worked primarily among cattle. It was used as a droving dog to take herds to market and also known for moving New Forest ponies as well as sheep to the markets at Smithfield.

In the 18th century only working dogs were exempt from taxation, pets and lap dogs were taxed and to differentiate between the working dog and the pet dog the tail was cut off or "bobbed". The Old English Sheepdog was docked in this way until 2007 when the Welfare Of Animals Act 2006 came into force.

Written pedigrees and a competent system of registration did not come into existence until 1873 and before that time most working dogs, of which the Old English Sheepdog is one, were mated to each other for a particular virtue such as stamina, temperament or intelligence, rather than for breed type. The Old English Sheepdog or Bobtail as it is also known is a breed known for its great hardiness, intelligence and adaptability, and it was for these qualities that the stock farmers in the West Country fixed the breed standard and laid the solid foundations for today's Old English Sheepdog.

WagginTails wrote:

Sometimes I think people make things much more difficult than this breeding thing was intended to be. (just my opinion) If we were to select human breedings the way we do dogs? We would be in a world of hurt. Your teeth are too small? Your legs are too small, Your tail is too long?

I always find it funny that people think that breed dogs fall out from the sky :roll:

If we have different breeds it's because people have created them, and maintained them as such. And whether you like it or not, a breed is characterized by a certain set of features, including length of tail and size of teeth, which must be taken care when breeding, or else we'll end up very quickly with a bunch of white and grey dogs that will look like anything else but an Old English Sheepdog. By the way, if you despise the work of breeders, why didn't you adopt a mongrel?

I must apologies to this section as I am not an experienced breeder and I have no intentions to be. I am new on this forum and have learned a valued lesson. With my excitement of finding a forum to finally share things about my first sheepdog, I may have stepped on some toes here and it was not my intentions. I want to talk about my dog and thought that I could and didn't realize the different levels of Forums. I can see by the conversations in this section it is way over my head. I do want to learn about this breed, so I will continue to watch this section and obtain as much knowledge as I can. I still am learning about the "Reputable Breeder" thing and I have looked on the Old English Sheepdog Club of America website. In reading this Forum I can see that people can change the breed by the description of where the sheepdog may have come from by different dogs? ( Not mongerls) I have also seen that there is a large difference as to the level of discussions that people have with sheepdogs. Looks like the people like me who are happy to own an sheepdog and those of you who not only own but are Breeders and take this whole thing to a different level? So if it is alright, I would like to stay and read about your comments of the breed and learn. I will keep my opinions to myself. Again, I apologize to this section and Ron and kerry for my recent post to this section.

WagginTails wrote:

Does the temperament and personality have anything anymore to do with a good dog or is it all about the tails and show dogs?

You have nothing to apologize for. How do we learn anything if we're not permitted to ask?

Like all purebred dogs that have been created, there is blue print called the breed standard for what the perfect specimen looks AND behaves (temperament) like. Breeders who want to work towards preserving their breed strive to breed dogs that conform to the standard.

Most if not all breeds were created for a purpose, even if that purpose was something like "lap dog" (some OES mistakenly feel that is THEIR purpose :wink:

) Others performed more measurable services, like gun dogs, guard dogs, sledding dogs, sight hounds, scent hounds and herding dogs (etc). Ideally the standard for these breeds describes the traits that collectively make for a dog who should be able to perform his intended purpose well in terms of both how the dog is physically put together (conformation) as well as the dog's basic temperament.

There are a number of ways to evaluate these attributes - in the breed ring, in the field, in the herding arena, racing, lurecoursing, tracking etc The conformation ring is a good place to evaluate the dog's basic structure (and to a lesser extent very basic temperament - is the dog shy, does he try to bite the judge? Typically not, as dogs that exhibit these traits would generally be, if not excused from the ring, then hopefully at least not put up - i.e. they would not win no matter how well they physically conform to the standard.) This may help explain why, all else being equal, dogs that come from breeders who show typically have easier to live with temperaments than from breeders who do not. At least this is true in our breed.

Mind you, this form of judging has limited usefulness, but it is in many ways the best we've got, since few people use OES for herding, let alone as true working dogs since even fewer of us have our stock. But to put it closer to your original breed; an English Setter, no matter how much winning the dog did in the breed ring, would not be considered a good example of the breed if it had absolutely no interest in birds, right? But if few people hunted with their dogs, you would have very little insight into how well breeders were doing to preserve the basic instincts and abilities of the breed, no matter how well they conform to the physical standard. This is largely where OES are and probably why we spend so much time discussing the minutia of the breed standard without actually knowing how our dogs stack up in terms of doing actual work. I.e. it's pretty much the best we've got so that makes it very important to breeders who are trying to preserve the breed as it was meant to be.

Probably the highest ranked OES in the US in the history of the breed in terms of herding trials came from what most would consider a very casual breeder - the breeder bred for nothing but the pet market. Unfortunately not with terrible care as he is hypothyroid and his hips are passable. but not terribly good, and his basic struture not the most terrifically sound. Not to take anything away from him - he is a fabulous dog who happened to have excellent ability and lucked into a talented working home. But had he been bred for health and structure his longevity as a working dog, i.e. usefulness, would probably have been more sustained.

The ideal is to breed for the whole package. Or at the very least breed for a dog who physically resembles the breed and has the temperament and health to make for a good companion, since that's the breed's primary function today.

Kristine

I haven't seen anything objectionable in your posts! Also , I'm not a breeder either, just a guy with a couple of rescued OES and a fancy keyboard!

OK, I don't really have a fancy keyboard. The A is worn off (and the S nearly so) and I'm not sure why.

Will, Here are a couple of links that discuss the physical characteristics according to the US OES breed standard.

http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... mation.htm

and more in depth photos:

http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... efault.htm

Nothing you have said has been taken the wrong way.

Keep asking anything that comes to your thoughts, that's what we are all here for to discuss the breed and learn. :wink:

Just want to also say thank you for rescuing your boy and look forward to photos of him

You know joining this forum we all need photos of your fur baby and hearing how it all goes and sharing everything your new fur kid gets up too :wink:

Ron wrote:

I haven't seen anything objectionable in your posts! Also , I'm not a breeder either, just a guy with a couple of rescued OES and a fancy keyboard!

OK, I don't really have a fancy keyboard. The A is worn off (and the S nearly so) and I'm not sure why.

Your keyboard sounds like mine! :lol:

Jill was here the other week for dog shows & we were working on an ad on my computer. She commented that she had no idea where the E, R, A, O, T & D were as they were completley worn off & she still looks at letters to type! I guess it is time to spend $$$$ on a new keyboard now that I don't have as many dog shows to do!

I haven't found anyting objectionable in your posts. They sounded more to me like you were asking questions about "why" this & that about the breed. Can't learn if you don't ask. One thing that sorta does "rile" (for want of a better term) this group up is when non-breeders with little knowledge of the breed come on strong about anti-docking issues. Then those of us who are breeding to preserve the breed & better the breed will speak out. So far, the way you have worded your questions appeared to have quite a bit of thought put into them not only for the actual question but how others would "take" your question.

Kristine, a very good explanation of our breed. I might add that several of us, although we don't pursue herding in terms of lessons or competition for one reason or another, do take our dogs for herding instinct testing. I have always made a point to do this once my dogs have finished their stint in the conformation ring. Then I don't have to worry about coat damage or injury that would excuse them from competition. Nothing finer than watching a dog you have bred go into the arena & turn on to sheep the first time they've seen them.

I never really thought about the herding idea with Will? That might be an idea for him to do? I understand now after reading how serious these other guys are and I think that is good as they want to make the breed better and understand it. I was looking at the OESCA rules and regualtions. Is this group for pet people?

WagginTails wrote:

Of course!

I sometimes wish our sheepie had a tail, but her bum is so cute when it wiggles, it makes me feel better. I doubt I'd get as much joy out of a tail as I do her bum wiggle.
And the thought of all the stuff she'd knock over with a tail- if the tail had half the personality that the body does- brings me back to reality pretty quick! But I love sheepies either way, no discrimination here.

The people who hide behind "the standard" of tail docking for these beautiful dogs are difficult to fathom. Do they know that women can vote now in the US? That wasn't always the standard. It was changed because there was no logic behind it other than the arrogance of the people who created that standard.

I had to laugh out loud when one of the "official" posting people cited the need to dock "because ALL the pups could be show dogs." What is the % of show dogs vs. pets? VERY VERY small. By that logic we should sterilize all baby boys as they could ALL be rapists.

God made Sheepies with Tails. Who are we to undo His work?

I would ask instead who are you to come here and be so rude? You post as a stranger, neglecting to register and be a member. That tells me you aren't interested in real change; you aren't interested in educating people or helping our breed. You are just trolling, looking to rile people up.

Join the group. Make your case. Engage us in conversation. Or post as a guest, throw out wild accusations, and don't be surprised when nothing you have to say makes a difference.

Sprocket is the first sheepy we have had with a tail simply because the other got docked at 5 days old and now it isn't allowed in the U.K. I love his tail but he does "leave it laying around" as husband says when he has trod on it again!! it's big enough to see I tell him. Nowadays when Sprocket sees him coming he moves out of the way and tucks his tail away. It is surprising what a draft the tail causes as well.x

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