Not a sheepie but any ideas what could be wrong??
To date Charlie has had 3 courses of antibiotics, 3 urine tests, an abdominal ultrasound (altho the vet said she's not an expert at these), an Xray, blood tests, a scope of vulva and cervix under sedation, surgery to check for problems with endometriosis, kidneys, bladder, ureters, urethra, bowel, stump of uterus, etc. The vet cant find anything, they're not even sure where the bleeding is coming from, however they did get a sample of the blood from her back legs and said it had inflammatory cells in it, so they suspected infection. There is no evidence of cancer, endometriosis, abscess, pyometria, grass seeds etc. And after all this Charlie is still bleeding!!!  Charlie has not been unwell at all. She is still her busy, energetic little self, if it werent for the blood we wouldnt think that there was anything wrong.
It has cost Mum $1000 to date and she's a pensioner, so my sister and I will have to pay for any more tests/treatment, but before we talk to the vet has anyone here ever heard of or experienced anything like this before. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks. |
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| Sorry I can't offer any suggestions - but I hope you are able to figure it out. |
Well, at the risk of Kerry accusing me of seeing zebras  if the bleeding magically stops shortly one possibility is an ovarian remnant. I think it's fairly rare, but in bitches who have this it can sometimes take years post spay before clinical symptoms appear. I think you confirm through progesterone testing and possibly looking at vaginal epithelial cornification, all that good stuff like you were getting ready to breed a bitch in fact. Though chances are the vet has considered this.
Other things that come to mind are some adrenal illnesses- being a poodle I'm sure Cushings was one of the first things to come to mind - but I really don't think you'd be seeing happy, normal poodle. Interesting timing. Just last night a friend was telling me her spayed young rescue bitch has some apparent vaginal bleeding, but she hasn't gone through the testing your mom has and it's pretty minor. Still, caught my eye. Kind of hoping my pet zebra theory could by chance be right since that's pretty inoccuous compared to some possibilities. The fact that she's not showing any other signs of illness has got to be encouraging, but frustrating not to know what you're dealing with. Hope they figure it out soon. Kristine - not a vet, just fond of zebras (shut up, Kerry  ) |
| Thanks Kristine, I know they wondered about ovarian remnant but I dont know about progesterone testing so I will get Mum to ask. It's a bit hard getting everything second hand as Mum's too stressed out to take it in properly. Let me know if your friend makes any discoveries.
Now where did you come by the zebra analogy or is it Kerry's? I had a older South African clinical lecturer in my final two years of diagnosis and management who used to say if you hear hoofbeats and live in Australia dont think zebras think horses. I've never heard anyone else use it, except me of course. |
| Vets here use a similar analogy. My vet apparently tends to see an unusually high number of "zebra" cases according to her relief vet. The kind of cases, when you're doing a differential, are so unlikely you put it in the, well, it could fit, but this and this is much more likely. And then it turns out to be the unlikely cause, the cases few vets ever see, anyway.
That said, it came up last week when I rushed my 11 year old spayed bitch to the vet after a night of vomiting. The vomiting was shortlived and not our main concern - her rapid and significant weight loss was. We did x-rays looking for both masses and obstructions, nothing. She couldn't feel anything. Lymphnodes were normal. Temperature was normal. She gave her a shot for the nausea, drew blood and asked me to drop it off at the lab on my way back to work for quicker results. She was quite literally scratching her head as she walked me out to the parking lot. Possibilties were kidney failure, most likely, in fact, alimentary (intestinal) lymphoma or some more obscure malady that would interfer with absorbtion of protein. None of it good. She had diagnosed an 8 year old Golden with a rather common, for them, cancer earlier that day. Just not a great day for her. I had Sybil in the car so I let her out to cheer her up and as Amy was petting her she noted that she was having a hard time keeping her guys in shape too, with all the ice we'd had. Three hours later she called me at work. I had the girls with me and my boss, who knew what was going on and guessed that I was talking to her, was kind of pacing and talking to the girls. The blood work came back fine. That made kidney failure unlikely, and cancer more likely. To make matters worse, Amy was heading out of the country for an extended period starting this week. I could tell she expected Belle to fail any time. I updated my boss and he informed me that Sybil is a pushy bitch who kept interferring with him trying to pet Belle. Given the weight loss plus the possibility of lymphoma, I spent the next 24 hours worrying and concocting a diet high in fats and proteins, low on simple carbs. I told her breeder that either she'd start gaining the weight back or she'd die happy. Breeder was not amused. Neither was I, but there wasn't much else I could do. And I was kind of encouraged by the fact that the nausea was gone in short order and her appetite never waned for a second. So I focused on that. Maybe 24 hours later I started thinking back and realized that during the same time period Belle had inexplicably been losing weight, Sybil had inexplicably been gaining weight...Yeah, hm! I put that together with my bosses comments about how Sybil was, literally, walking all over Belle. And then I thought about it some more. I feed my guys together. Mad had a period of stealing Belle's entire food dish, but that had been years ago and I solved that by feeding her last and away from the rest. Belle is one of those dogs who will cede whatever to whomever, but my guys tend to keep their noses in their own bowls (hm) and I fed her next to the two slowest eaters in the house, so she was generally done before they were... Then I started thinking that what if Sybil isn't really that slow, but is actually on bowl number two??? Two of the other girls had had minor weight losses this winter that I solved by upping their food a bit. What if the hog had actually been making a habit of stealing other's food? Her sleight of paw is quite remarkable in so many other ways. I called my vet. She laughed. I told my agility instructor - during Sybil's last agility class she tired towards the end. I had already put her on a small diet, having noted the increased "fluffiness". She laughed as well. Kerry who'd been getting an ongoing report about what we suspected was the one who mentioned looking for zebras....
We can't know for sure if this is the case, but I've started crating the two of them when I feed everybody, so we'll see...And Belle is loving her new diet. I'll wait a little bit longer to reweigh her, but I'm pretty confident she isn't losing any more weight at the very least. Anyway, long story, but probably a moral in there somewhere. I was thinking about your mom's poodle some more. I have girls who go 3 1/2 weeks (in season). But that's on the long side. If it's been 3-4 weeks with no signs of abating, that makes the hidden ovarian tissue less likely, especially with exploratory surgery, though it can be hard to find I gather. Other possibilities like small vaginal etc tumors or some kind of clotting/other autoimmue disorders should have shown up with the testing they did. Or at least hints of it. And you'd expect some kind of at least gradual decline. Cushings the same. It can cause a variety of infections, including urinary infections, but at least some of those tests should have shown more than suggestions of a vague infection. I can definitely understand why the vet has been coming up with nothing concrete. Maybe we really are talking about a Zebra this time. Many of the ones Amy encounters are bizarre autoimmune conditions. Kristine |
Not the 'ol swap the plates while no one is looking trick!! 
Paws crossed for you that that is the simple ???  solution. It is certainly looking like a zebra with Charlie darn it. I am going to drive the couple of hours to my Mums this weekend and pick her up so that I can take her to the University Vet Hospital here in Melbourne. I have been speaking with my vet and he thinks maybe some weird cyst or unusual tumour of kidney so we need to get her to a specialist ultrasonographer.
Well here's hoping its good news for you with Belle and a relatively easy to treat zebra for Charlie. High fat, high protein diet YUM, YUM!! |
ah Kristine- my favorite zebra hunter  |
kerry wrote: ah Kristine- my favorite zebra hunter
Yes, yes. Where shall we go on safari next? 
KB |
| Update on mini poodle.
Its now three 4 hour trips to the Uni Vet Hospital for 3 anaesthetics, one ultrasound, 3 different types of scope 2 with contrasts, 3 courses of antibiotics and $2000 later and we finally have a diagnosis.
Yesterday after nearly 6 months of telling 3 vets it was a bad year for grass seeds up in the country at my Mum's place, they finally found a grass seed in the mucosa of the vagina. 8mm x 2mm, I'm thinking we should gold plate it. It would cost less than finding it did. 
Still at least its sorted. And Kristine the horse versus zebra theory held true this time. If only they'd spent more time looking for the horse and less for the zebra we'd have been sorted a lot longer and a lot cheaper ago. sigh |
  Arrrgh! Grass seeds! How I hate them.
I'm lad you've found out what's wrong though and that she'll be OK... even if your wallet won't be |
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