Sheepdog that Bites
Hello, I have a 2 1/3 year Old Sheepdog who has shown signs of aggresive behavior from the start. We got her from a breeder in the state of MO. at 8 weeks old. We are in NJ so she was flown in. Tumbles has always had a problem going to the groomer ( 2nd groomer) but she bit the groomer last week and she asked us not to bring her back. She said that she is a mean dog and she would of sent her back to the breeder a long time ago. I am so upset about her behavior and how she seems to get worse rather than better. I have taken her to three differnet trainers and the last one told me that she is a very hard dog to train. She can be so sweet one minute but you can't trust her. She will be licking you face one minute and a second later I could be petting her and she gets a crazy look on her face and tries to bites and really means it. There has been something off in her eyes from the start but me and my husband keep thinking she is getting better and than she bites again. I have 18 nomth twin boys in the house and they like her but i can never leave her near them without me watching her. She is always really good with them but i can never trust her and how she just snaps. I am starting to think maybe she has something seriously wrong and maybe it was the way she was breed. I love her and am working so hard with her but am so afraid of how she will act when the boys get older and want to play with her. I get sick over the fact that I could never trust her near my boys or their friends. Do you think this could be a breeding problem that she can be so nasty and when she bites her eyes go funny. She also paces around a lot more these days like a wild animal. I walk her a lot and she gets a lot of attention. As I write this she is laying next to me like such a nice dog but if I tried to move her she might nip at me. I just don't know how to help her at this point or how any groomer wil ever be able to work with her. She will bite them too. It's so hard having a dog in the house that I am afraid could bite at any point. She is great with other dog she sees and also my two cats. Please let me know if you could think it was the way she was breed and she came from a bad breeder. we found her at puppyfind and I just read some negative things on your website. i am so sad over this. Thank you for any help, Jodi |
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| Have you done a full veterinary physical meaning complete blood work (including thyroid levels- send to a major lab, don't settle for in-house), urine and hip check, etc.? You first need to rule out a medical cause for the behavior. Has the breeder been at all supportive? |
| Jodi,
There is hope your story sounds very similar to mine and i was at my wits end. Rosie is 3 1/2 and always been a very active dog even when she was a puppy she never really settled. Over the last 8mths she also started to nip and then learnt that if she nipped you'd back off this lead to biting. At night if I tried to move her she'd have none of it she would move when she was ready, I looked every where and I really thought it was a mental problem and started to think I would have to have her put down. After much research I called in a Behaviourist this is what you need not a trainer!!!! I have been lucky because the one use uses the same techniques as Cesar Milan. With my girl she is very confidentant but not an Alpha dog, she is however an Omega dog this is two down form the Alpha and Beta so any trouble she would step in and stand in the middle and stop it. She was getting very confused which lead to stress then anxiety then aggression................. As I am a professional groomer I always did her myself, however I got bitten on a few occasions and I know just how much this hurts and the worst thing is how can my dog bite me that really upset me and tears were plentiful. i had to let this go which was anther hard thing to do but dogs live in the moment so I had to try very hard. I know groom her every day even if its just for 10mins, this is a very dominant thing to do to your dog. You need a lot of Patience with this but after 6 weeks I can now groom her without any problems at all. Our behaviourist told us that she was trying to take the alpha role but her makeup was telling her not too hence why she was getting confused, Rosie's routine had changed dramatically. * She has 2hrs walk every day and 90% of this is on the lead and I'm working her all the time with sits, stays, waits, etc * She's not allowed to follow me from room to room * At meal times I mix the food with my hands so my scent is on it and she has to look at me before getting the food * And to stop the confrontation I have bought a collar with remote control that sprays air at high speed so when I want her to stop doing whatever it is I can use this rather than get bittern. All I can say is I really do know how you feel and if i can help I will as there's note a lot of information out there. With the right help and a lot of hard work you can turn your dog around but it will take a while. Oh and I forgot to say that Rosie was always pacing, your situation really does sound the same as mine. Please feel free to pm me if you'd like. Hope this helps val |
| Thank you so much for the information. I have had her blood urine and hips checked but they did not check her Thyroid. She is going to the Vet in a few weeks for her check-up so I wil have that checked.
Val- Your situuation does sound a lot like Tumbles. Thank you for sharing. I will PM you with a few more questions. It really helps to know that other sheepdogs have acted the same and their is hope of the nasty biting to stop. Jodi |
| I have a 6 year old male who also has "crazy eyes" and aggression issues. He was kicked out of 4 different groomers and we went through three trainers as well. Finally I found a positive reinforcement behaviorist who helped us curb Walter's aggression.
My advice would be first to get a behaviorist, but second to try and see what Tumbles' triggers might be. I know you said it seems like she will just snap, but try keeping a log of when she bites and the context. You might find that certain things set her off and once you know her triggers it will be a lot easier to curb them. Good luck with Tumbles |
| Rosie and Tumble sound alot like Luna. We sought out a trainer that deals specifically with aggressive dogs and were told the same thing about Luna that Valb was told about Rosie. We ven did a training collar system that was also non-pain oriented.
Through training we managed to take care of Luna's issues. But she also never showed her mean side to people, just to her less than adequate Alpha sister. We too do long walks, and lots and lots of training, which she loves. I often wonder if she was just bored. to this day our trainer says she really isn't aggressive, but rather confused about the lack of a strong Alpha presence in the house hold. So I have to make sure I behave dominant enough to keep her comfortable, and alot of that is achieved through training. GOOD LUCK and feel free to PM me if you need any support/help/or information. best; Allison |
Darth Snuggle wrote: Through training we managed to take care of Luna's issues. But she also never showed her mean side to people, just to her less than adequate Alpha sister.
Allison - there's a world of difference between a dog who will get into it with other dogs and one who will bite humans. Resident foster decided to get into it with Mace tonight while I was tossing the ball for them. Mace decided she'd had enough of the little #### so responded in kind. I let them carry on for a while, but even though Mace took her down a few times, she wouldn't back down and I was starting to worry about the showcoat so I stepped behind Ms Foster, wrapped my hands around her waist and pulled her back and off while verbally telling Mace to knock it off. She was more than ready to take all three of my youngsters on, but despite having every opportunity to take a whack at me I doubt it even crossed her mind. Try that with a dog who doesn't have a problem chomping on humans. No, better not. Not even the same ball game. Though I appreciate the hard work you put into your girls, I wouldn't characterize what they were going through as aggression. And that is, as they say, a GOOD thing 
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Allison - there's a world of difference between a dog who will get into it with other dogs and one who will bite humans. Agreed; that's why I thought it was important to mention that my girls were only aggressive towards one another, and not to people. However; the training we did pursue was the same that one would use for a truly aggressive dog. All of the dogs in our class are people-aggressive. Tonks and Luna are the only ones allowed off leash for training, and depending on what dogs come to class with us, I sometimes keep them on-leash anyway. Mad Dog wrote: Though I appreciate the hard work you put into your girls, I wouldn't characterize what they were going through as aggression. And that is, as they say, a GOOD thing
Kristine You are absolutely right; its a very good thing. Our trainer even agreed that our dogs aren't genuinely aggressive, but still saw the benefit in our pursuing the training. Tonks and Luna were tearing each other up 5 out of 7 days of the week, with Adam and I getting bitten when we'd try to break them up. Not the same at all as a dog that will attack a person, but it was still very disruptive to our lives, both physically and emotionally. We've seen a tremendous improvement through training. So while our case is not the same as Jodi's, I just wanted to let her know that there ARE options out there for dogs with aggression issues and their owners. Just wanted to pass on a little hope. Jodi; I wanted to add that Adam coined the nickname 'Crazy Eye" for Luna; so I can totally related with that look they get! Good luck, and let us know here how else we can help you. The board has loads of experience in all different areas; and we're here for you.  |
jodi11 wrote: Do you think this could be a breeding problem that she can be so nasty and when she bites her eyes go funny.
More likely than not, yes. First order of business if it isn't thyroid related is to do what Val suggested and find a qualified behaviorist, not a trainer in this case -- though Allison's suggestions are valid -- simply because with little kids in the house you just have too much at stake. Kristine |
| I don't know where you are in NJ, but I may have a suggestion for a trainer to call in NY - he specializes in aggressive dogs and works wonders - Kristine I know what you are saying about a behaviorist, but well you know.
jodi if you are interested pm me and I can see what I can do to get you some information to make the call. in the very least he is the most dog savy person I have ever met and I have dealt with ore than a few trainers and behaviorists. |
| I have read on this board of people that have had great results with behaviorists. I have also read of people like Kerry and myself having good results with trainers. My suggestion is interview and research both options. Why not; its free to do the research and to make some phone calls.
I tried to find a behaviorist to help us before I found a trainer, and my search for a behaviorist was unsuccessful, while my search for a trainer yielded the sort of results we had wanted. You'll know when you find the right person for your situation. Just be prepared for the fact that its going to take some effort on your part to get this taken care of, maybe even alot of effort, but the end results are really, really worth it!!! |
kerry wrote: I don't know where you are in NJ, but I may have a suggestion for a trainer to call in NY - he specializes in aggressive dogs and works wonders - Kristine I know what you are saying about a behaviorist, but well you know.
I'm biased. We have Patricia McDonnell down the road from us. And your dog isn't truly aggressive either, though I hear what you're saying about the guy you're working with now. If they're close and you think he has the experience level to handle it, it may be worth a shot, though few genuinely human aggressive dogs are ever truly "fixed" with training. Generally unless there's an underlying physical cause, the best you can hope for is lifetime management. Some OES have a serious screw or two missing and few trainers are equipped to deal with that or even recognize it when that's the case. And then there are the cases of dominance aggression, though I don't think we see much of it in the breed anymore -- most of it seems to be fear/anxiety/insecurity based, which many good trainers can handle just fine. But you need to accurately assess the cause first, and with little kids involved, there just isn't a lot of room for error. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: kerry wrote: I don't know where you are in NJ, but I may have a suggestion for a trainer to call in NY - he specializes in aggressive dogs and works wonders - Kristine I know what you are saying about a behaviorist, but well you know. I'm biased. We have Patricia McDonnell down the road from us. And your dog isn't truly aggressive either, though I hear what you're saying about the guy you're working with now. If they're close and you think he has the experience level to handle it, it may be worth a shot, though few genuinely human aggressive dogs are ever truly "fixed" with training. Generally unless there's an underlying physical cause, the best you can hope for is lifetime management. You know I don't think agression per se is a bad thing - dogs by nature have to have some agression to survive. in polite society it has become something we don't talk about and we put other names to it. No my dog is not people agressive. and this dog may or may not be either - regardless of the indications here. I agree with you that having young kids in the mix makes this serious - whatever we call the behavior. I am suggesting they talk to my trainer because of his long history of work with aggressive dogs and his way of assessing dogs. And he would say - it doesn't matter what causes it - we have to deal with it (very much Suzanne Clothier). Having worked with behaviorists and trainers, and regardless of certifications, I would squarely put him in the behaviorist category Kristine |
| I think the main thing here is to find someone who can get to the root of the problem and that the owner has total faith in. There is always a reason as to why the puppy/dog has become this why and yes in the wild you would have the appropriate ranks and dogs would automatically know their place but if the leader isn't showing the full strength then the next one will step up to the mark and this is why most dogs start to get confused. I know from my situation this came on over a long period and was so slight it was almost not there hence why some times its difficult to spot and sort out before.
The other really hard thing here is admitting that your dog has a problem, I find most owners will say oh there ok and never look to sort the issue out. I know that my Behaviourist came highly recommended and had my dogs under control within 10mins and was able to tell me exactly what was going on. I do feel that a trainer will not look at the body movements etc like a behaviorist would. i do find the psychology of dogs extremely interesting and there's always some thing new to find. |
| Max nips too! Max turned 3 years old today. He is my second OES and WOW what a difference. My first, Tony, was an angel from the first time we brought him home in the car. Both times the OES were the second dogs at our home. We had a Shih Tzu that was already 4 yrs when Tony arrived. And this time my Shih Tzu, Mojo, was 4 months old. The vey suggested it's an Alpha dog thing between the three of us. So, today while I was sitting on the couch petting Max as he sat facing me on the floor he started nipping at my wrist and then started to go for my entire hand. I did what the vet suggested. I carefully knelt down beside him and rolled him on his back. I then put my knees on either side of him until he stopped wiggling. I was talking calmly and rubbing his belly the whole time. After he whimpered and sighed I got up... He stood up and looked at me and then sat down in front of me. I knelt down again and got a big kiss.
A |
Valb wrote: I think the main thing here is to find someone who can get to the root of the problem and that the owner has total faith in. There is always a reason as to why the puppy/dog has become this why and yes in the wild you would have the appropriate ranks and dogs would automatically know their place but if the leader isn't showing the full strength then the next one will step up to the mark and this is why most dogs start to get confused. I know from my situation this came on over a long period and was so slight it was almost not there hence why some times its difficult to spot and sort out before.
The other really hard thing here is admitting that your dog has a problem, I find most owners will say oh there ok and never look to sort the issue out. I know that my Behaviourist came highly recommended and had my dogs under control within 10mins and was able to tell me exactly what was going on. I do feel that a trainer will not look at the body movements etc like a behaviorist would. I totally disagree. perhaps its different in the UK but here trainer / behaviorist usually refers tot he certification. some people transcend these titles. actually the person I am referring to is called a trainer but according to his Amazon bio is "a college-level instructor of animal behavior and a consultant for the Humane Society". |
| I would agree that it will depend on the qualifictions that these people hold, not all of them have done canine behavior to the higher level. some people have only done this for a very short while and done a quick course on it. |
mojomax wrote: Max nips too! Max turned 3 years old today. He is my second OES and WOW what a difference. My first, Tony, was an angel from the first time we brought him home in the car. Both times the OES were the second dogs at our home. We had a Shih Tzu that was already 4 yrs when Tony arrived. And this time my Shih Tzu, Mojo, was 4 months old. The vey suggested it's an Alpha dog thing between the three of us. So, today while I was sitting on the couch petting Max as he sat facing me on the floor he started nipping at my wrist and then started to go for my entire hand. I did what the vet suggested. I carefully knelt down beside him and rolled him on his back. I then put my knees on either side of him until he stopped wiggling. I was talking calmly and rubbing his belly the whole time. After he whimpered and sighed I got up... He stood up and looked at me and then sat down in front of me. I knelt down again and got a big kiss.
A You can roll the dog on its side just as long as your confident that your not going to be bitten again, i was not happy to do this once Rosie got into the state of biting it could lead to something very bad and when you need to do it the second it happens and the eyes are glazed I just wouldn't try it. |
kerry wrote: [
I totally disagree. perhaps its different in the UK but here trainer / behaviorist usually refers tot he certification. some people transcend these titles. actually the person I am referring to is called a trainer but according to his Amazon bio is "a college-level instructor of animal behavior and a consultant for the Humane Society". I would agree that it will depend on the qualifictions that these people hold, not all of them have done canine behavior to the higher level. some people have only done this for a very short while and done a quick course on it. |
Mad Dog wrote: Some OES have a serious screw or two missing and few trainers are equipped to deal with that or even recognize it when that's the case. And then there are the cases of dominance aggression, though I don't think we see much of it in the breed anymore -- most of it seems to be fear/anxiety/insecurity based, which many good trainers can handle just fine. But you need to accurately assess the cause first, and with little kids involved, there just isn't a lot of room for error.
Kristine I very much agree with this. I made the big mistake of jumping into a trainer who was well versed in dominance aggression, which ended up being a huge mistake. I would be very very careful with whatever method you choose with your dog and do not try any punishment based training until you figure out why your dog is snapping. Which is why I would suggest a behaviorist. This whole thread reminds me that I really need to get in touch with a new behaviorist... |
Lil Walty wrote: I would be very very careful with whatever method you choose with your dog and do not try any punishment based training until you figure out why your dog is snapping.
I think punishment based training is a last resort in ALL scenarios. Especially with so very many options at our disposal these days. |
| Jodi,
Check with your veterinarian and see if they have an animal behaviorist available in your area, that is a great way to look at the whole problem. Working thru a problem with a dog that will bite people is totaly different than working thru a dog-dog aggression/dominance issue. A dog that will nip or bite at a person aggressively is one that does not acknowledge that there is anyone that is dominant over them (kinda like a sassy teenager) It does not make them a bad dog but it is a situation that should be handled by a professional. There are some dogs (just like people) that may have a chemical imbalance which can affect their behavior, dogs like this may respond to medications. You can't tell which dogs are which, but a professional might be able to, and help you to work thru this. There are alot of options available, Best of Luck Michelle Redfern, DVM |
Darth Snuggle wrote: Lil Walty wrote: I would be very very careful with whatever method you choose with your dog and do not try any punishment based training until you figure out why your dog is snapping. I think punishment based training is a last resort in ALL scenarios. Especially with so very many options at our disposal these days. I agree, I was just cautioning against using even the slightest correction or doing any "alpha rolling" with a dog that might be slightly 'off', because that is a great way to start (and lose) a fight! |
Lil Walty wrote: Darth Snuggle wrote: Lil Walty wrote: I would be very very careful with whatever method you choose with your dog and do not try any punishment based training until you figure out why your dog is snapping. I think punishment based training is a last resort in ALL scenarios. Especially with so very many options at our disposal these days. I agree, I was just cautioning against using even the slightest correction or doing any "alpha rolling" with a dog that might be slightly 'off', because that is a great way to start (and lose) a fight! I couldn't agree more Heather! Back when Luna was in full "crazy eye" mode, the one time we tried the "Alpha roll" it actually caused a fight. I've been told by trainers and behaviorists that it does not work with every dog; that if you have a true Alpha or as you say, a dog that it slightly off on your hands, it would rather die than roll. |
I wouldnt dare try a roll on my Dalmo either. He tries to be alpha but is a scaredy cat. If we even get angry and yell at him he reacts with aggression because he's scared. If he's doing something we dont like we have to be calm and firm a roll would most likely get us bitten.  |
Remember folks dogs don't care about qualifications on bits of paper - well apart from ripping them up that is!
 |
| Thank you all so much for all the information and ideas. It really helps to know that I am not the only one that has problems like this with a sheepdog. It sounds like a behavorist is what I may need. When Tumbles had her private training sessions she went backwards and nipped at my neighbor , me and my husband. She actually got me and my husband at differnt time and dug her teeth in. She does not give any growl warning she just growls and bites hard. She doesn't attack but bites and than lays down lloking really mad to show she know she was bad. The is good at the basic commands but it seems to be a personality issue.
When you mentioned that some dogs have a screw lose this is what the last trainer and the groomer said. The vet actually implied that too.The main concern is my 19month old twins if it was just me and my husband I wouldn't be as worried but even at that who wants to get bit or have a dog that you can never trust. One minute she is licking my face and then if something tiggers her i see the look in her eyes and have to slowly move away. I am now afraid to let my guest near her because you never know. She is great with other dogs and is trys to be the Alpha dog but sometimes is put in her place. i am in Nothern NJ so I wil have to see if ther is a bevaorist in this area. I agree that I could never roll her over when she is in this frame of mind. It's just hard because she can be nice and then just swtch out of the blue. The breeder in MO on puppyfind seems to have all rave reviews which makes me feel better if they are true. I just wonder why my dogs seemd to have real issues. The eye thing was from when she was a pup ( certain times) I have another oes who is 10 1/2 who my parents wouldn't give up when got married and he is just a big mush ball calm dog. Tumbles is wild when we visit him but never mean. It just has been adding a lot of stress in the house because we can't just let her play with the kids and I am so afriad that one day when they are ut she will just nip their tin hands if they reach out to her and she is in a " Tumbles" Mood. I keep wanting to work with her because I would hope to never be in a situationwhere I had to get her another home. I belive that pets should only have one family. We do have a large back yard with an invisble fence. Has anyone ever heard of dogs having issues from the invisible fence. She is aware of the boundries so doesn't get zapped. Thanks again for all the great help.. I really appreciate it all. |
| P.S. I like the pictures of all your OES. You al have some really cute dogs.
Jodi |
Archies Slave wrote: Remember folks dogs don't care about qualifications on bits of paper - well apart from ripping them up that is!
Oh you kill me! My girls are rarely destructive. But the one thing they devoured pretty readily was the instruction booklet that came with their training collars! And they weren't even out of the box when they ate the darned book!!! |
| Jodi,
The other thing I would also look at is food, I did find tht some foods were making rosie worse. I give her as much natural food as posible. She also has to look at me before she gets the food, before she wouldn't look at me at feeding time this I understand is an alpha thing! You may have to train her the watch command to enable this. |
Quote: She is aware of the boundries so doesn't get zapped.
Make sure the collar is operating properly. Someone had mentioned on this forum that their collar had malfunctioned and the dog was getting zapped at inappropriate times. http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=11114 This alone can make a dog "mean" because they don't understand what they did that caused them to be punished or physically hurt. I just don't like shock collars of any kind... |
| The collar is working properly I check it all the time. She is so use to the guidelines now that most of the time I don't even need to use the collar. Tumbles gets walked a lot but we put the fence in just to give her extra exercise.
Thanks for the info all the ideas and info help. |
6Girls wrote: Quote: She is aware of the boundries so doesn't get zapped. Make sure the collar is operating properly. Someone had mentioned on this forum that their collar had malfunctioned and the dog was getting zapped at inappropriate times. http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=11114 This alone can make a dog "mean" because they don't understand what they did that caused them to be punished or physically hurt. I just don't like shock collars of any kind... I use an e collar for the fence and my dogs have no issues with them. actually I ask them if they want to go out and they run to the collars not the door - and the few times I forgot to put them on them I always wondered why they hung at the door instead of running outside. But for that matter I have seen a skilled trainer use a shock collar on an aggressive dog (not OES) and make a huge difference in his life (or chance at one). In some extreme cases extreme measures can be warranted. |
| Can someone get some pictures of "the eye" as I notice with Archie his wall eye pupil is larger than his brown eye, my wife calls it his mad proffessor eye!
Am I ignoring this? is it a sign? or is it just the contrast making it appear so? It'd be nice to know what to look for? |
Archies Slave wrote: Can someone get some pictures of "the eye" as I notice with Archie his wall eye pupil is larger than his brown eye, my wife calls it his mad proffessor eye!
Am I ignoring this? is it a sign? or is it just the contrast making it appear so? It'd be nice to know what to look for? Jenny's wall eye pupil is larger that her brown eye also. It's like having 2 different dogs - sweet Jenny on the brown eye side and devil dog on the blue eye side. |
Archies Slave wrote: Can someone get some pictures of "the eye" as I notice with Archie his wall eye pupil is larger than his brown eye, my wife calls it his mad proffessor eye!
Am I ignoring this? is it a sign? or is it just the contrast making it appear so? It'd be nice to know what to look for? I think the eye comes with the dominant behaviour ans when I say this with Rosie i just knew it wasn't my dog! You will now when you see this, I said she went like a mad dog but not that bad just my saying. This week I have seem a really big differance in Rosie's behaviour, I washed and groomed her yesterday and not one sign of any bad behaviour. Yippee.......  |
| I do know of a behaviourist in NY he was one of the judges on "Groomer has it", if you would like him to contact you please email me and I'll pass your details on to him. |
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