Breeding Pair in Utah
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad ... 05&lpid=21 |
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That is horrid. 
Blue factor? Get real!! |
got sheep wrote: Blue factor? Get real!! why - that seems to be tracked in some of the lines quite heavily. or is it more a EUropean thing? |
kerry wrote: got sheep wrote: Blue factor? Get real!! why - that seems to be tracked in some of the lines quite heavily. or is it more a EUropean thing? It was more my imppression of the whole ad. The dogs don't seem to have that great of other traits - and here they are stressing the one trait they think is valuable. Like "breed these dogs to get this highly desireable trait!" It just made me sick. I bet that male is in horrid shape. And OES aren't even a livestock guardian breed! he probably just is there for lack of a better spot for him - after all, he seems just to contribute in one way...... OK, I better stop. |
got sheep wrote: kerry wrote: got sheep wrote: Blue factor? Get real!! why - that seems to be tracked in some of the lines quite heavily. or is it more a EUropean thing? It was more my imppression of the whole ad. The dogs don't seem to have that great of other traits - and here they are stressing the one trait they think is valuable. Like "breed these dogs to get this highly desireable trait!" It just made me sick. I bet that male is in horrid shape. And OES aren't even a livestock guardian breed! he probably just is there for lack of a better spot for him - after all, he seems just to contribute in one way...... OK, I better stop. didn't mean to side track - just was confused. all your other points were valid  |
Sounds to me like they might be brother & sister......both 2 years old, both carry the "blue" factor".....I'll have to ask my mentor about that highly prized "blue" factor.  |
| What is blue factor? And what is throw puppies? |
throw puppies is I believe the correct animal husbandry term for what you would refer to as having puppies. ALthough it may be a horse term  |
| In the horse world, "throw" is usually used with a color. Like "that red mare throws bay babies." It isn't a true synonym for foaling. Probably the same meaning in the dog world. |
| yep that makes sense. |
Paula O. wrote: In the horse world, "throw" is usually used with a color. Like "that red mare throws bay babies." It isn't a true synonym for foaling. Probably the same meaning in the dog world.
Yes, exactamento. And if they mean by throw blue puppies that they will produce puppies who are born blue (hi, kerry  ) that is not an accepable OES color. Oh, it happens. But they tend to have dark gray noses (incorrect) and light eyes (ditto) Nice coats, though, supposedly. Since it's not an acceptable breed color, I'm sure every one and their brother will want to pay extra for them!!!
Actually, since most pet buyers know nothing about the color of OES coats, but a lot about the color of their eyes, it could just be (incorrect) slang for throwing blue eyes, since that's what sells. Kristine |
| I thought about the blue eye thing - but remember (and I have this like fifth hand) red was (is?) not an acceptable poodle color and people were paying big bucks for red poodle puppies in hopes of raising more...... |
kerry wrote: I thought about the blue eye thing - but remember (and I have this like fifth hand) red was (is?) not an acceptable poodle color and people were paying big bucks for red poodle puppies in hopes of raising more......
I know. But why would they strive to produce a color even many breeder judges have to look very closely at to discern...? I mean, where's the bragging rights in that? 
Of course, you can see the color differences as young puppies so maybe because they use the fact that they look different than their littermates as a selling point and charge extra for the "rare blues". Who knows? We had a rescue dog who was ILPed come back from the AKC as MERLE. I had her owner put gray and white. When she was surrendered she had mange and when the coat first grew back in it looked like the grays were black and gray mixed, so whomever did the evaluation must have corrected it on her ILP/PAL papers. In fact, I think you met the "rare merle" in St Louis. Only problem is her skin has since healed and her coat is now all gray again
Kristine |
| does the black for a cut/wound etc revert to gray? Max was so dark it wouldn't have mattered. |
kerry wrote: does the black for a cut/wound etc revert to gray? Max was so dark it wouldn't have mattered.
Not always. Or in some cases it seems to take a long time. But in her the difference was really remarkable, In fact, I thought she'd stay more or less "merle", but just recently when she was staying with me I was really looking at her and it dawned on me that a year later her coat really is back to normal. The merle was cute, but I like her better as a sheepdog. And I know it says merle is OK, but I have yet to find a breeder who has actually seen a real merle, so...? KB |
Mad Dog wrote: And if they mean by throw blue puppies that they will produce puppies who are born blue (hi, kerry
) that is not an accepable OES color. Kristine Confused. When I read the breed standard for OES on the AKC site, it specifically says any shade of ...blue or blue merle is acceptable. What is blue merle? I've read different definitions of merle. |
guest wrote: Mad Dog wrote: And if they mean by throw blue puppies that they will produce puppies who are born blue (hi, kerry ) that is not an accepable OES color. Kristine Confused. When I read the breed standard for OES on the AKC site, it specifically says any shade of ...blue or blue merle is acceptable. What is blue merle? I've read different definitions of merle. Born blue is not the same as a coat that matures into a bluish-gray. Puppies that are born blue are actually born sort of gray and can look very different from their black and white litter mates. It's a dilute of black, I believe. Recessive trait supposedly (not very up on the genetics of color, so maybe someone else can explain it better). Also their noses are not black, rather they are more typically a slate gray (close to black, but not quite). Standard specifically says black nose. Plus they tend to have light eyes (objectionable) I don't know that we have any kind of merle in our breed. No one I've spoken to including long time breeders has ever seen one. Kristine |
| You'll find in the breed standard around the world most have the Merle not as a coat colour now.
Ditto Kristine on the Merle I don't think there is or ever was that coat colour in the breed. Maybe confusing for people with OES that have a grizzle grey often confused with a Merle. Born Blue puppies are not encouraged at all due to incorrect pigment colour and eye colour. Just like an OES carrying a brown coat that is not encouraged in the breed nor is Born Blue Puppies. Otherwise we stray from the standard which is written to keep OES, Old English Sheepdogs.
FCI European & UK standard COLOUR : Any shade of grey, grizzle or blue |
lisaoes wrote: Ditto Kristine on the Merle I don't think there is or ever was that coat colour in the breed. Maybe confusing for people with OES that have a grizzle grey often confused with a Merle. Yeah, that's what I always thought merle to mean, kind of a spottier grizzle? I guess I never thought of it as being like collie's merle. But, it makes sense that if it looks like grizzle, it should just be called grizzle anyway! |
| Here's the direct quote from the AKC site:
http://www.akc.org/breeds/old_english_s ... /index.cfm Quote: Color
Any shade of gray, grizzle, blue or blue merle with or without white markings or in reverse. Any shade of brown or fawn to be considered distinctly objectionable and not to be encouraged. I'm confused because a friend had an OES which was dark gray/white in color (black/white as a puppy). Skin was bluish under the pigmented part. Dog had dark brown eyes. Breeder told her the puppy was 'blue merle' because of the color on his skin. Also told her that as the puppy matured and got his adult coat, the hair color would be lighter at the skin and darker further away from the skin. This is what happened. Whenever I've looked up definitions of 'merle' it doesn't match that dog's coloring and seems to be what I have seen as merle for a collie (as mentioned earlier). Mostly, just curious because there seems to be a difference in definitions and opinions about what merle means or at least what merle means in an OES. |
| When Frankie was a puppy we were at the vet and I noticed Frankie's skin under the dark fur was blue. The vet said most dogs had blue skin. But under the white fur his skin is very pink. So I have looked at the skin of all 3 of my sheepies and sure enough the skin is blue under the dark fur. But it has faded some with age. |
| Update: At least in the end, the woman took care of Paddington. Noticed last week that the ad was now only for the female. Since I was curious, I emailed and she said she placed him in a home in ID on a neuter contract. |
| BTW - I saw an earlier ad of the puppies and there was a very distinct difference in the young pics. In the older pics, it seems like most of the pups still had predominantly pink noses so it wasn't as easy. When I was first looking for a stud for Sidney, I contacted this woman. Of course the male wasn't screened for anything and her female had a litter at one so I didn't go with that her stud. |
| Paddington and Gerdie are my Charlie's parents--NOT brother and sister. We went to the owner's house when we got Charlie and were very impressed with the way she took care of the puppies and haven't had one minutes problem with him physically or emotionally. He's a GREAT dog! We considered taking both of the dogs in because we felt bad for them. However, we have indoor dogs--Paddington has always been an outside dog. We also have a chain-link fence and Gerdie can climb them. I think they've gotten into a difficult situation personally and have had to make the hard choice to get rid of the dogs along with some other pets/livestock.
When we called Lisa and asked about the "blue factor" she referred to in the ad, she stated she was refering to the color of their eyes. Evidently, blue eyes are rare in Utah. In Charlie's litter, there was one pup with both eyes blue and one with one blue and one brown. I think there had been another one that had two blue but had sold by the time we got Charlie. |
| I know from emailing with the owner, they were moving off of their farm so I'm sure that would make it harder for them to keep a dog that scales fences and a dog that is used to being out on a farm. Originally the owner had thought of keeping Paddington while finding a home for her female. I know this b/c I had talked w/her about him - she seems like she cared for the dogs (she was planning on getting his hips graded and I believe she was looking into CERF as well). Out here, many people have a farm mentality - I have found just a handful of friends who treat their dogs like family, so it isn't that surprising that she kept the male outside. In their ads, they seemed like they cared about the puppies and were doing many things right although its obviously better to med. clear your dogs before you breed them! I do wonder how young the female was when they started breeding her as I've seen them advertise at least two litters. |
| Charlie was from her first litter. She had one more in September. |
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