puppy's great! papers never arrived?
Any help would be appreciated! Jeri |
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| Unfortunately you are not alone. Breeders who value their reputation will get those papers to you. Those who value your money can't be bothered. |
| Where did you get the pup from? What is the breeders name? Maybe some of us know him/her and might be able to help. |
| I found the puppy at puppysearch.com. The breeder was Angela Horton from Kansas City, MO. |
| You might cut to the chase and simply file a claim in small claims court.
You'll need some form of proof that your pup was supposed to include papers. But first, I sent you a private message with a website link... you'll need to figure out if it's the same person you've mentioned. Same name, same state and they breed OESs... but in a different city. |
| It is the same person. My problem now is I'm not sure how to take legal action. I contacted puppysearch.com where I found the puppy to see if they had a record of the information she had placed there--because she had advertised the puppys as registered with AKC and NKC. But they don't keep any information once the breeder takes it out they coud only give her name, phone number possiby address. They told me I could take legal action but I couldn't figure out what I could do. You mentioned a small claims court--what would they do there? Would she (or next of kin if she really passed away like that website said) be required to attend? Those other people at the website would attest to the fact she advertised the puppies as papered--sounds like some of them have a bigger case against her than I do! I use to wonder if she never had any papers and I don't want to return the dog and get my money back would there be anything I can do at all? Thanks for the help already! |
| I have no legal background so I can't tell you how best to handle it. Do a search for "small claims court" in your area to see what the claim limits are and procedures for filing. Note that you will need to have proof though that the pup was supposed to be papered in order to prove your case.
Do you know the full website address where the ad was found? There's a website that stores some cached web pages... http://www.archive.org/index.php I had found a stored Puppyfind.com page there before. A breeder was fibbing when she said she never advertised she was a breeder of OESs (ha). You might be able to find the cached page you need... slim chance but it's probably worth a try if you saved the full website address where you found your pup. |
| I'm not saying that you shouldn't get the papers you were promised (no one should go back on their word), but papers really don't mean much anyway, except to have a record of the dam and sire. The AKC is just a registry and it definitely doesn't say anything about the quality of a puppy. Unless you're showing or competing in AKC related events, there's really not much use for the papers, other than for the AKC to take $10 from you to register the dog.
I'd chalk it up as a learning experience and make sure to research a quality, reputable breeder on my next puppy. Believe me, I've chalked up a lot of "learning experiences" in life, lol. |
| Agreed! It's just a worthless piece of paper otherwise. I've got a few of those too since my dogs weren't the quality bred for conformation.
If she competes with her dog, could she submit this application to still qualify even if the breeder can't be located? http://www.akc.org/pdfs/ilpform.pdf |
| It's not that I want the worthless piece of paper for myself, I just would like to breed her someday and sell the puppies and I suspect they sell a lot better with the worthless piece of paper. |
jerilyn wrote: It's not that I want the worthless piece of paper for myself, I just would like to breed her someday and sell the puppies and I suspect they sell a lot better with the worthless piece of paper.
Oh boy. 
If you don't have her papers my guess is you know nothing about her pedigree (or even if she is actually a purebred OES - no offense), which means you know nothing about the health status of her parents or any of the other dogs behind her, which means...frankly, you would have no idea whatsoever what you're breeding. OES have a number of health issues that need to be screened for before any (sensible) breeding takes place, few if any visible to the naked eye so to speak, meaning you need x-rays to check her hips and elbows, a blood test to check for thyroid problems, common in the breed, her hearing and eyesight checked (a dog can be unilaterally deaf - deaf in one ear - and you'd never know it without a BAER test) you need to have a cardiologist certify that her heart seems to be in good working order. Just because someone breeds strictly for the pet market, with or without papers, does not mean the puppy buyers don't deserve a shot at good health. That should be worth charging more for than any papers. Check this out for starters: http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD This lists the health checks that should be done on an OES and should in fact have been done on her parents and should indeed, should you decide to breed her, with or without papers, be done on her and any male you breed her to. You should also be able to check her parents' hips and eye status at a bare minimum at www.offa,org, providing you at least know their registered names even if you don't have the actual papers? Here is more information about the health issues in OES: www.oeshealth.org Here is the open health registry, which lists confirmed CA carriers and has some articles about same: http://www.oescahealthregistry.org/ Just so you have some idea what you'd be getting into. If you have any questions, let us know and we'll try to clarify. Kristine |
| Oooooh.
I'd be very careful breeding a dog that you really have no medical history on, who's breeder is no where to be found (if this is the case). Are you able to research the lines to see what health conditions may have affected them or if the temperament is sound? This is a great place to start if you're even considering breeding- Old English Sheepdog Club of America http://oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica. ... s_2000.htm http://oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica. ... owning.htm Something else to consider... was the dog sold with full registration or just limited? Was there any type of written contract indicating the dog had to be altered by a specific age? Most breeders sell on a limited registration contract. Reputable breeders do this to keep control of the quality lines they've worked so hard to produce... backyard breeders may do to this to prevent competition. |
Both excellent points, Kristine and Jaci. The only thing I'd add is that, for the most part, if you're doing everything you really should in terms of health/genetic testing, plus all the vet care for the bitch, profitwise, you should make, hmmm, well almost close to nothing.  |
| Lucky for you the puppy is healthy!
(I would check titers before vaccinating, if exposed to parvo I wouldn't want to use a live virus to vaccinate) From what I have seen that "breeder" is not the best! (doesn't make your gal any less loveable) Please look at what Jaci, Kristine and Jill have said. Considering that she will not even give you the "papers" A reputable breeder will keep in touch with you and always offer assistance. Wishing you the best for your gal and if you are interested in breeding please look into the Code of Ethics and reputable breeders. There is so much to be learned from it and I am saying this as I learn something new each day! OES have many health issues and to better our breed we need to be cautious with breeding! That being said, I do not breed.. That is up to the folks that know what they are doing 
I do know that I have lost many OES in the past years to IMHA(Immune Mediated Hemolitic Anemia) and cancer. Good Luck with your pup and please consider all the advice! |
| The only answer I have right now is I emailed AKC and NKC to see if they have information on the breeder and possibly her breeding dogs. If they hae anything maybe I can do something then. (Like if they have the dogs regiestered names) I'm sure she's a purebred OES (she looks it and without any training she goes out and herds sheep and goats and then sits and watches them!)--and I'm not really interested in breeding show animals just great dogs, but I will look at the information (links) you all sent. All dogs have health problems specific to their breed. When I asked the breeder about that she just told me she had never had any problems with them and had owned them for something like 9-12 years. |
| I do believe you are wanting to what is best but, I would like to share
my picture of Murphy who is AKC registered. 
He is so not 'standard' OES The only reason he is registered is to do Obedience and Rally Trials. I am not sure what NKC is.... I would have never bred Murphy He is a wonderful man BUT, basically from a puppymill. I love him all the same |
| I'm in the process of formally complaining about our breeder. I'm in Canada, so I contacted the CKC, but I imagine they should be about the same wherever.
The lady I talked to was helpful enough, but gently "scolded" me for not calling her to check on the breeder's status first. (I should have, I admit). She was a little surprised when I said, "Okay, can you look him up for me now and tell me how many complaints he has?" She had to take a minute to do so, and then said, "None." I then responded, "Well, I guess it's all moot then. IF I HAD called you in advance you'd have told me to go ahead anyway. He has no complaints and is in good standing." She had to agree, I would still be in this predicament. I should have checked, but checking wouldn't have helped me. So, I'm complaining. First and foremost I want the papers I'm entitled to because I cannot stand a liar who gets away with blowing people off. Yes, they may be almost worthless, but he needs to keep his word. Period. That's just what decent human beings do. And, now there is a record of a complaint against him (or at least there will be soon) so that if someone does check in the future they'll know. Had I promised to pay him in full, and then somehow managed to not do so, you bet he'd be all over ME to keep up my end of the bargain. It's about right and wrong. I can't offer you any advice other than definitely go through the formal complaint process. Yes, you should also chalk this up to a lesson learned, but not without doing a little something to send a message to the breeder. I don't know about a lawsuit, as I'm not sure there's an official "value" put on the papers, so you'd likely spend more money to make a claim than you'd ever get. Good luck to you. |
Quote: All dogs have health problems specific to their breed. When I asked the breeder about that she just told me she had never had any problems with them and had owned them for something like 9-12 years.
So the breeder told you she had never had any health problems with her dogs. This would be the same breeder who promised to send you papers for your puppy--and didn't. Do you see the possible problem??? I mean, maybe she only lied about the papers. You may be willing to take that gamble but the puppies you produce will the ones who will pay the price if she lied--or simply never had a dog long enough to discover problems. Yes, all breeds do have health issues specific for their breeds. This is why it is important to do careful research into the health histories of the parents, grandparents, and as far back as possible: to avoid unnecessary risk of producing puppies with inherited health problems such as hip dysplasia, a painful and expensive condition. When buying a pup, the thing to do is to ask to see health certificates for yourself, for hips, for eyes, for any other genetic issue known to be in the breed you are looking to purchase. See them for yourself. Since you are past that point now and are committed to a puppy, you really need to take even greater care if you decide to breed. For certain, you need to wait until she is two years old so that you can have her hips certified as free from dysplasia. And other health checks. Same for the sire. Also waiting 2 years gives your girl a chance to be a fully adult OES before she becomes a mom--much healthier for her and for any puppies she produces. |
Donner's Mom wrote: I do believe you are wanting to what is best but, I would like to share
my picture of Murphy who is AKC registered. He is so not 'standard' OES The only reason he is registered is to do Obedience and Rally Trials. I am not sure what NKC is.... I would have never bred Murphy He is a wonderful man BUT, basically from a puppymill. I love him all the same Off topic here but looking at Murphy, he looks like he has some airdale in his history. Just his stance. Sorry I know off topic |
jerilyn wrote: and I'm not really interested in breeding show animals just great dogs, but I will look at the information (links) you all sent. All dogs have health problems specific to their breed. When I asked the breeder about that she just told me she had never had any problems with them and had owned them for something like 9-12 years.
Anything you breed should still be bred as close to the standard as possible. That would entail using a very good stud dog. By that I mean, at a minimum, one who conforms to the standard & has had heath testing done. Quite frankly, there is very little difference in the dogs we breed that go to companion homes versus show homes. They are out of the same litter. They are just dogs they we have decided don't have all we want to use in our breeding program in the future. And sometimes the ones sold to companion hmes could very easily win in the conformation ring & could be used in our breeding program but we just can't find show homes at the time so someone ends up with a very nice "companion" which is what EVERY breeder should be breeding for. When you say she told you she's had no health problems & she's owned the dogs for like 9-12 years.....RED FLAG! That is 1 generation. You can't tell anything about health issues in just 1 generation. If you are truly interested in breeding down the road, please hook up with a reputable breeder to mentor you. All you need is the heartache of watching your dog die from autoimmune hemolytic anemia or having pancreatic problems or at the age of 3 not being able to navigate a flight of stairs....I could go on & on ......to realize that it take more than putting to nice looking dogs together to produce good dogs. I don't mean to sound harsh but I know what the rescue people go thru with so many of the BYB dogs. |
| This dog too could have been registered through the AKC... http://oesusa.com/Cleft-Palate-Puppy/cl ... -puppy.htm She's a purebred OES and all of her littermates were AKC registered. If the litter had been sold with a full registration, I could have bred this dog and sold her pups as AKC registered OESs. AKC alone means next to nothing.
I know you mean well and we all feel our dogs are the most beautiful and best ever. Some people may be offended by Kaytee's pictures but to me she is one of God's most beautiful creations (though she can be an obnoxious twit sometimes  ) There's just so much more that goes into responsible breeding than bringing two purebred dogs together to do their thing.
Good breeders have it in their contracts that they'll take back a puppy/dog for any reason for the life of the dog. Their pups don't end up a burden on an already over burdened rescue/shelter system. If a genetic condition should appear, like hip dysplasia, what will you do? Will you simply become unreachable if families need advice/help about a dog with health problems? Will each puppy leave with excellent advice on grooming, training, how to humanely handle basic behavior problems? You know this breed can be harmed by simply neglecting their coats. Two of my OES littermates have both low thyroid and allergies. Both had dermal and RAST allergy testing late last year. It cost almost $800 per dog for the testing. The serum and first couple of shots were another $200 per dog. One of these dogs I've been giving allergy shots to for the previous 3 years but the shots failed. She's had over $3,000 worth of treatment for allergies. We're hoping a different allergy serum mfr's tests and serum will give her relief from her serious seasonal allergies. I have to exhaust all options before I'll consider steroids. This is just one example of how expensive it can be to treat a condition that affected two dogs from the same litter... If you still decide to breed, please try to locate a mentor who breeds for conformation to see if they'll guide you. It's not about breeding "pretty" dogs... it's that you should only breed sound dogs that will have the best chance of producing puppies destined to have the best health and temperament. Good luck to you with your decision. |
cheyennebuford wrote: Off topic here but looking at Murphy, he looks like he has some airdale in his history. Just his stance. Sorry I know off topic
Well, never having an off-topic detour stop me I happen to know that Murphy has a bonafide AKC registration #. He is not ILP'd. His pedigree is known and can be traced back to the inception of the breed.
Six generations back you stumble accross the first breed champion in his pedigree - CH Jendower's Blue Max CD. Who has an OFA number (hips were x-rayed) And that also tells me Murphy has some CA carrier risk back there (fear not, that puts him in good company with most of the rest of the breed) There are other champions spotted throughout starting in generation 7 and back. But for predominantly 6-7 generations plus no one was much selecting for anything resembling the standard, i.e what an OES is supposed to look like and so voila! Here's Murphy!
And I say that with great affection. We all love you Murph! 
Kristine |
I wasnt trying to be a smart ass. LOL I just meant the way he was standing and his haircut.  I didnt mean to say he wasnt oes. I'm always sticking my foot in my mouth or my typing fingers  and Murphy is a handsome OES. I'm trying to figure out my two although they are brother and sister... almost 2 years apart, Sophies fur has a bit of a curl to it and Beaus is more straight. Weird and Beau had allergies and problems with his ears since a pup. Sophie knock on wood not a one. |
cheyennebuford wrote: I wasnt trying to be a smart ass. LOL I just meant the way he was standing and his haircut.
I didnt mean to say he wasnt oes. I'm always sticking my foot in my mouth or my typing fingers .Not at all. You're not the first to speculate, even in jest, as to the possible breeds behind an OES. So many of our local (midwest) rescue/BYB dogs have me thinking a serious dose of hound. Well, guess what? UC Davis did a DNA study of some sort that included OES and determined that we have some undetermined sighthound behind the breed. (In Murphy's case, one would suspect Irish Wolfhound ) And guess what? When I look at some of the pedigrees that are available to me I start to notice certain patterns of popularly used sires.
One suspects that a much used sire of two harkened back to the houndy part of what's behind the breed and that has developed into it's own "type". Apart from being gray and white and shaggy most only vaguely resemble the breed, but if you don't know the finer points of the breed you probably couldn't tell. Quite frankly, I bred a loosely linebred bitch to an even looser linebred dog, and it was probably as much of an outcross as you can get in this breed (yes, it was intentional ) and of one of the puppies the best that can be said is: "My, my, darling, what part of the deep, murky primordial gene pool did you emerge from???"
Co-breeder is still having fits. Houndy is how she describes him, too, though he has more width than the dogs described above, he is square and shortcoupled and he does have a topline, though not a great one. His head did not develop to be as "houndy" as she had feared (a lack of stop primarily - he does have one, amazingly, though had you seen him as a puppy... )
He is by far the ugliest OES I have ever seen and his biggest and baddest feature - well, OK to me his front assembly is actually even more offensive - are his rosebud ears. Had I not actually READ the OES standard and instead decided this was the dog to breed <cack! gag!> and had maybe other similar minded "breeders" who for some reason thought his peculiar ear set was cute incorporated him into their "breeding" programs, in a matter of 5-10 generations we could have our own "Old English Dumbodog" <NOT!> Fortunately for him he has a truly wonderful personality.  Fortunately for the breed he does not have the equipment necessary to pass any of it on.
And, no, I don't love him any less. I just don't want any more of him.
Kristine |
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You wouldn't believe the comments we get on what Murphy is.... It is very interesting and we don't mind a bit
When we went to our first National is Lancaster we should have taken a tent for Murphy (Circus Tent , he was a big attraction!)
We owe alot to Murphy, he is really a conversation starter for his two shy parents! 
(well, Marty was shy until he hit the show circuit!)  |
Donner's Mom wrote: :lol:
You wouldn't believe the comments we get on what Murphy is.... It is very interesting and we don't mind a bit When we went to our first National is Lancaster we should have taken a tent for Murphy (Circus Tent , he was a big attraction!)We owe alot to Murphy, he is really a conversation starter for his two shy parents! (well, Marty was shy until he hit the show circuit!) LOL - I was wondering if we were talking about the same Marty here....
Murphy is a tall guy for sure - it was interesting hearing the comments away from the show site - like at the motel from other people staying there. They were amazed, and I believe great dane was even mentioned! |
I'll go with the Irish Wolf Hound. I can see it What ever is in his gene pool he is a cutie.   |
got sheep wrote: Donner's Mom wrote: :lol: You wouldn't believe the comments we get on what Murphy is.... It is very interesting and we don't mind a bit When we went to our first National is Lancaster we should have taken a tent for Murphy (Circus Tent , he was a big attraction!)We owe alot to Murphy, he is really a conversation starter for his two shy parents! (well, Marty was shy until he hit the show circuit!) LOL - I was wondering if we were talking about the same Marty here.... Murphy is a tall guy for sure - it was interesting hearing the comments away from the show site - like at the motel from other people staying there. They were amazed, and I believe great dane was even mentioned!
Marty has totally come out of his shell! Funny, Marty took a foster boy to his new furever home this weekend and she said "You didn't tell me he was so tall!" I simply told her they kinda come large at our house! |
| My problem's looking better. The AKC emailed yesterday saying they had records from that breeder, so I guess they have information on the parents. (she only had the one set of breeding dogs) I hope to hear back today on what to do now. |
| so it only takes a few generations to really stray from the standard - in Murphy's case only in height
I would like to put it on record that when I met Murphy I thought he had wolf hound in his past - Marty was quick to say no. Now we could argue it was wayyy in the past |
kerry wrote: so it only takes a few generations to really stray from the standard - in Murphy's case only in height
I would like to put it on record that when I met Murphy I thought he had wolf hound in his past - Marty was quick to say no. Now we could argue it was wayyy in the past In fairness to Murphy, there is no max height on OES anymore so in that regard he is within standard. Otherwise, the suggestion of an IW resemblance does shine through.
What's far more shocking is the revelation that "Marty was once SHY?????" Completely incomprehensible!!!
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: kerry wrote: so it only takes a few generations to really stray from the standard - in Murphy's case only in height I would like to put it on record that when I met Murphy I thought he had wolf hound in his past - Marty was quick to say no. Now we could argue it was wayyy in the past In fairness to Murphy, there is no max height on OES anymore so in that regard he is within standard. Otherwise, the suggestion of an IW resemblance does shine through. Kristine Oh yeah he does have the look around his face to me at least. |
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