Neighbors, fences and dogs, oh my!
Does anyone know exactly what the laws are regarding contained canines? Certainly, I am guessing each municipality has some caveats (in mine, we have a pet limit.... ahem  ) but I would think there must be a general legal guideline. For example, if someone comes into my home uninvited and my dogs bite them, am I liable?
If someone comes on my property, circumventing the fenced area that contains the dogs - and my dogs bite them, am I liable? Does it matter if my fence has a lock on it? Does it matter if I have a Beware of Dog sign? Does it matter if I have a No Trespassing sign? How about if they come over a fence or break through the gate and I pump a couple of rounds of .22L into them, and then my dogs bite them. Are my dogs in trouble? 
Seriously though.... Is someone on this board an attorney; have experience in this matter; or should I just call my insurance agent and the city attorney (who are pals... but still, I don't really wanna raise any red flags if I don't have to.) Thanks. Note: I am not certain which section to post this in, so Mods and Ron, please move to wherever is appropriate. Thanks! |
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| I am not sure of the laws but, I would like to find out. I thought the same thing after reading the post about the child trespassing. What if this or that? I'm sure the law varies but you would think there would be a general guideline. |
| Advice from my State Farm agent:
Apparently the courts will default in favor of young children, as they are considered not to be able to make sound decisions. Even if the kid scales your 6' masonry wall and drowns in your pool, you will be (non-criminally) liable should their family choose to sue. He advises "that is what insurance is for." Defending yourself is another matter. He did advise posting a "Beware of Dog" sign. Though he said it was more as a precautionary measure for break-ins. As for popping the intruder with a .22 long, he suggested a .45 or one of the double gauge - and wants to increase my insurance.  Sheesh, he is all sensitive about this gun collection I just inherited!
~n |
QuailTrail wrote: .......He did advise posting a "Beware of Dog" sign. Though he said it was more as a precautionary measure for break-ins....
I was told once that the 'Beware of Dog' sign can also be used against you... They said that although most of us 'know' its warning to hopefully prevent break-ins, that it can also imply that 'we know' our dog will bite.... |
QuailTrail wrote: Advice from my State Farm agent:
Apparently the courts will default in favor of young children, as they are considered not to be able to make sound decisions. Even if the kid scales your 6' masonry wall and drowns in your pool, you will be (non-criminally) liable should their family choose to sue. He advises "that is what insurance is for." Defending yourself is another matter. Hubby is in insurance too, and agrees with your agent. Children under 12 are not liable for actions such as these. |
| I have thought of posting a NO TRESSPASSING sign, but was afraid it could be construded as " my dog is dangerous ".
I do have a metal sign on my gate that was purchased on Ebay that says... OLD ENGLISH RUNNING LOOSE. I did not purchase it for any legal reason, it is just cute. It has a bust of an OES at the top and the message at the bottom. We have a 6' vinyl fence with two key locking gates that covers about 2/3 acres. Maybe instead of a warning type sign something noting you have whatever breed running loose, your chance of being sued would be decreased. I do agree that mom is responsible for this incident. You do not leave a child outside unsupervised. He could have just as easily strolled down the street and been picked up by a child molester, or hit by a car, etc, etc...... Too many bad things come to mind that maybe mom & neighbor need to be reminded of. Suddenly a scatch doesn't seem so bad  |
| I actually talked to my attorney about the recent incident with the kid and his mother coming into my yard and the quarantine of my dogs. He said there is always the possibility of a civil action being filed by the kid's parents for damages, pain and suffering, etc. He also said to examine my homeowner's policy for any language that I am required to report any incident to them within some period of time like 10 days. He said the first thing claims department's with insurance companies do is to try to find a way to deny a claim and often look for something like "failure to file a report" to have a reason for denying coverage.
So now I am going to have to read all of the fine print in my policy just in case this idiot woman decides this is an opportunity to try to make some money in this bad economy. And of course, if I have to report an incident to my insurer, I run the risk of higher premiums or cancellation if I don't agree to get rid of my dogs, which he said frequently is required by insurers after a claim involving an animal. I guess the lesson is that even if you think you have done everything you can to protect yourself from risk by training your dogs, and fencing your yard, and think that your insurance will always take care of things beyond your control, you, as a dog owner, are never really safe from such nonsense. |
mouthypf wrote: I was told once that the 'Beware of Dog' sign can also be used against you... They said that although most of us 'know' its warning to hopefully prevent break-ins, that it can also imply that 'we know' our dog will bite.... I was also told this so instead I made a sign ... piece of wood, pic of Dudley and the message "Hi, I live here" and hung it on the gate |
| Yes, posting a "beware of dog" or other sign can make you more liable depending on which state you live in. It's basically saying that you know of any dangers on your property and anyone that enters could be harmed (even if it is not likely to happen).
Also, with concerns of a civil suit, I do not know the negligence laws for California, but the child's negligence (not the parent's) could cause an offset in damages if the parents sue. While you are not going to have a criminal charge against a five year old in criminal court, age is not as much of a factor in negligence. If the child should have known that it was unsafe to climb under a fence where there were dogs in the yard, then that child can be held liable. In addition, they would have to prove that there was a dog bite. My dog is just a puppy, but when she bites, she leaves little tooth imprints, not scratches. It is more likely that the scratch came from the fence than a dog and the parents would have to have proof of a dog bite. The more time that passes, the less that they are going to be able to prove. Granted it is about 5 years since I studied this in law school, and now practicing criminal law I tend to stay away from anything civil. However, if you can work this out with your neighbor and keep it out of court, that is your best option. |
| Don't you think that the issue of potential civil liability is not the merits of the case or the principles of justice or fairness of such a suit or even whether you would ultimately prevail in defending yourself? The real issue is what your insurance carrier is likely to do since THEY decide whether to defend the suit or settle it. The issue for them will always be money not justice or fairness. For a small case (for them, certainly not you) the decision will almost certainly be to settle quickly and and minimize cost. I only trust insurers, even my own, to make decisions that are in their interest, not mine. |
rfloch wrote: I only trust insurers, even my own, to make decisions that are in their interest, not mine.
Me too!!!  |
rfloch wrote: Don't you think that the issue of potential civil liability is not the merits of the case or the principles of justice or fairness of such a suit or even whether you would ultimately prevail in defending yourself?
Absolutely. A lot of people get sue happy and don't consider the effects. More often than not, it does not matter that you are right. And seeing your two sweet dogs, you know that they would not do this. If nothing more is going to come from this, it may be best to just let the situation die down. |
| First let me say how sorry I am that this is happening to you. Its absolutely horrible and laws need to change. They need to change in favor of the responsible acting party.
I feel this is the trouble with society as a whole today. We are not holding kids accountable for their actions and woe be unto the parent that tries. These kids are then growing up thinking that the world owes them, instead of them needing to contribute. If that was my son even at 5 years old he would have been told well you went off without permission. You tresspassed into someones yard without permission it is your fault you got hurt. What are you going to do different next time? At 5 years old kids can comprehend that they need to not climb under or over fences. Stop babying kids they are smarter than people want to think. And if the 5 yo didnt know better than crawling under the fence the mother didnt teach her child very well. |
| A 5 year old boy is old enough to have been taught not to break into someone's property. (I found out that my neighbor's own 4-year old son was with the kid and the 5 year old tried to entice the younger boy to go with him but the four year old said he wasn't supposed to so the other kid crawled under, himself.)
A five year old also is old enough to have been taught how to act if he suddenly finds himself next to a strange animal-- for his own safety. But obviously the mother doesn't know, herself. I lay this entirely on the kid's parents, but of course, they won't see it that way. I am just going to wait this out until the quarantine is over as many of you suggest. |
| Maybe you need to train your dogs to kill the intruder, drag them into the house, break the window, and place a large knife in the bodies hand?
That should cover all bases
Seriously though, it certainly sounds like there is a lot of confusion and scope for people to make money. In the terms of a child being able to do what they like and not being held responsible it seems a bit harsh, especially when the child that young should be under supervision if the environment is not safe? |
Archies Slave wrote: Maybe you need to train your dogs to kill the intruder, drag them into the house, break the window, and place a large knife in the bodies hand?
That should cover all bases Great idea! Though our dogs are not allowed to play with knives, fire and firearms! And one of them is well on her way to breaking the window on her own. |
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