"Viscous" sheepdogs now under quarantine
So today I get a visit from a uniformed animal control officer and now Charlie and Toby are quarantined. The officer looked over the dogs, and of course, they bounced around and wiggled their bums hoping she was here to play with them... so much for the vicious sheepdogs. But I am left with 10 days quarantine and I have to write a check for a $50 "administrative fee". |
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| oh my. do you have any recourse against the parents for letting their child onto your property? |
kerry wrote: oh my. do you have any recourse against the parents for letting their child onto your property?
Probably not. The presumption is always that no matter how or where a possible animal bite occurs, it is always the responsibility of the dog owner. If someone comes onto your property, even illegally, and your dogs cause any harm, you could be liable. The animal control officer was very nice, though. She even had my dog's paperwork with her since both are licensed and even knew we adopted Toby from her agency less than a year ago. It's just very annoying because the problem, obviously, is that the woman was not watching her kid properly. |
| well yes that was what I meant - and can she prove its a dog bite? |
| Wow, that completely sux.
Can you talk to your neighbor and get the trespasser to cough up the admin fee (at least!)? There is always small claims court, but that's such a pain. This will be a good lesson for all of us (though in my case, trespassers will be bitten by my 40lb fear biter.) Keep us posted, will you? The best news is that your furry ones are safe. |
| No, she doesn't need to prove anything, and I don't think it was a bite. The cut was on his face and I think it is highly unlikely that any dog would try to bite anyone there. These dogs have never shown any tendency to bite anyone, anyway. The kid could easily have gotten a cut while crawling under the fence from the rocks or a nail. Or he could have been knocked over by one of the dogs once he got in their yard. Or it could have been from an open-mouth tooth, I suppose. I know I have caught a tooth a few times playing with the dogs. The ground is uneven and steep there and Toby, at least, is young and exuberant and weighs probably twice what a 5-year old does.
If my dogs bit a child, even accidentally, I would be the first one to be alarmed. But I don't think that happened and it's just very annoying. |
| I'm not suggesting that your dogs bit the little horror. But unfortunately the face is a really common area for kids to get bitten.
Its right there at dog face level and if you watch young dogs playing together, they grab each other by the cheek and hang on for grim life. All good fun when you've got nice tough, stretchy dog skin. Not good fun when you've got thin, easy to tear kid skin. The dog may just think its playing but it does serious damage to the kid. It's another reason why dogs and kids must always be supervised together. I wouldnt try getting the trespasser to pay the $50 it will just p--s them off and they are angy (paranoid) enough to have reported your dogs, so it may just escalate the situation further. I just be blocking up the hole. And hoping the 5 year old doesnt get a visit from Santa  Not really, well maybe I'd hope that a bit but dont tell. |
| Geesh... what a pain for you to go through. If she is soo dang worried about something happening to her son she needs to keep a closer eye on him HERSELF.
After raising three kids... and 2 of them boys... I have no doubts the cut could have come from anywhere. Lets hope that she also learns a lesson and talks to her kid about wondering into yards he has not been invited into, one day he could do that to just the wring yard, or what have you and there may be serious consequenses. (Can you tell I was NEVER, ever one of those "Not MY kid" mom's. If something happened I was the first to ask... "What'd you do now?") |
his_armywife wrote: If she is soo dang worried about something happening to her son she needs to keep a closer eye on him HERSELF.
Funny. That's exactly what my wife said. From your forum name, it sounds like you're from a military family. My wife is an Army brat and was raised on bases all over the world. Never had dogs until we got married. Now she has had 7 sheepdogs and she protects them like they're her troops. |
| Oh yes... Very long line of Military service in my family. My father was in WW11, my brother and BiL were air force, other BiL was Army, many uncles, neice and a couple nephews, grandfather... all Military.
I have been married to a career Army Soldier for 17 yrs now. We have also been all over... many many bases U.S. and Korea and he's been to Iraq... We've done it all but Germany. (The ONE place we always wanted to go to and never could!!) I can definately relate to your wive growing up all over!! LOL |
OMG! I would be so furious that my sheepie has to suffer a quarentine b/c alittle kid crawled onto my property without permission and b/c the mother was not watching her child!! It would serve her right if you called child and youth services on HER!! But revenge is not pretty and does not help anyone  But it would serve her right wouldn't it.???? Well I vented and I wish your sheepies out of quarentine asap!
Hang in there |
If the little fellow craweled under a fence with 6 inches of clearence, I'd put money on the fence causing the cut. I think a letter to the local paper regarding collateral damage from poor parenting is in order.  |
 Well, Merry Christmas to you and yours...why is it, that we have to pay because of irresponsible parenting. If it were my fenced yard I would file trespassing charges on the parents. An open yard, dog off the leash, okay...but a fenced yard. The kid goes to jail...LOL...how old is he.
Plus I would be so sad without my puppy...all locked up in quarantine without a bone and his best friend. Sorry to hear about this. As another poster said 'this sux' |
| Surely criminal trespass applies?
Next time he breaks into your property call social services, he obviously isn't adequately supervised. If you get no luck there, fill him full of caffiene and send him home wired to the hilt! |
| wouldn't it be nicer if we lived in Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood?
i'm sorry you're going through this. |
Andi_Rae wrote: :) Well, Merry Christmas to you and yours...why is it, that we have to pay because of irresponsible parenting. If it were my fenced yard I would file trespassing charges on the parents. An open yard, dog off the leash, okay...but a fenced yard. The kid goes to jail...LOL...how old is he.
Plus I would be so sad without my puppy...all locked up in quarantine without a bone and his best friend. Sorry to hear about this. As another poster said 'this sux' He's is only 5 so it is a bit of a stretch to talk about criminal trespass. My neighbors are Mormon and have 6 kids and another on the way and all of their friends have lots of kids. He was one of them. There are always lots of kids next door running around. The irony is that they have a little Boston Terrier too, who comes through the same small hole under the fence all the time. They always ask me to care for him when they go on a trip. The little bugger doesn't mind, bite's my hand and runs off and won't be caught. Last time I had to chase him for hours in the car before I cornered him two blocks away. |
| Caffeine and SUGAR .......most of the younger generation have no idea what sugar even is.My 5 year old grandson would have never tasted meat or sugar if I werent an evil granny!
He can climb anything,fit through any gap anywhere,after a weekend with him I know why God rarely sends babies to the 50 plus age group.(Dont even mention the 70 year old new mother in India). This just sux.I would have so called Social Services and escalated the whole thing out of control then thought"Gee,that probably wasnt my best idea". |
| Thats just awful, and so wrong. I think the mother should have at least had to prove the dog actually bit her child, and she should have watched where her kid was.
The laws are slightly different in the UK and if your dog bites someone on their own property nothing can be done in most cases as the dog is seen to be protecting its own territory (things have changed slightly since the dangerous dogs act was enforced). there are of course exceptiopns to this but I'm pretty sure if that happened in the Uk not much would have happened. |
| Horrible. I understand if you had real vicious dogs, the public needs to be protected. but, i think it would be apparent if the injury wsa a real bite - are the neighbors remorseful at all for putting you and your dogs through this ordeal? Do they know you have to pay for their creating this problem? |
Sheepie2 wrote: Horrible. I understand if you had real vicious dogs, the public needs to be protected. but, i think it would be apparent if the injury wsa a real bite - are the neighbors remorseful at all for putting you and your dogs through this ordeal? Do they know you have to pay for their creating this problem?
No, not remorseful. They called me to tell me what happened, but didn't tell me their friend called animal control although I think that is really what she wanted to tell me, but couldn't. They seem more perplexed. They know my dogs, have been around my dogs a lot, and said "It doesn't seem like your sheepdogs could bite anyone." And no, they don't know I had to pay a fee, but I think my wife is going over there and tell them. Meanwhile, no dog park, no walks, no visitors to the house. If I hadn't agreed to those terms, they would have taken my dogs to the shelter for the duration of the quarantine and I would have been charged for boarding on top of everything else. I wish I knew what really happened. Maybe after the mother jumped over my fence to rescue her son she panicked and struck or kicked them or something and one reacted and did actually nip her kid. I just don't know. But it is also clear that eventually, the woman and her son walked through my entire yard with the dogs present without incident, because I later found the front gate unlocked. |
| Could something go back on the parents of the child about their son "trespassing?" Your property is considered private property because you own it isn't it?
I really know nothing about the legal side of this....but just a thought |
| How awful! I am so sorry. I would be peeved if this happened to me. How are you responsible for people trespassing on your property, especially when you have a fence? |
| Really doesn't seem fair at all. The mother should have been watching the kid at all times. |
jcc9797 wrote: How awful! I am so sorry. I would be peeved if this happened to me. How are you responsible for people trespassing on your property, especially when you have a fence?
well you are actually - doesn't that suck? But I still think the parents need to bear some responsibility and if it were me I would want to clarify that the dogs did not bite the dog - because - what if this kid thinks this was all fun and games and does it again? or brings friends? what happens with a second or third strike? I would call my lawyer and ask advice and if I didn't have one I would find one.. there are homeowners insurance implications as well. |
| The parent failed to make sure the neighbor's backyard was safe before she left her child unsupervised. I'd be having nightmares about what could have happened had vicious dogs been in your yard.
You might consider getting wire fencing and nailing it to the bottom of your fence (is it a wood fence?) to block future access. http://oesusa.com/index.233.jpg We also have a key lock that prevents anyone from entering the backyard through the gate. I'd also post a pretty No Trespassing sign on the neighbors side of the fence... 
I know this has been very upsetting. All in all, things ended up pretty good though... the Animal Control officer was understanding and willing to work with you, your dogs are staying with you until the quarantine phase is over and no one was badly injured. Just try to put it behind you. |
| Hm. An indeterminable small scratch.
If one of your dogs intentionally wanted to take a chunk out out of the kid, there would be no doubt there was a bite. That said, the quarantine rule is for health purposes (rabies observation), not punative purposes, and even an innocent scrape could potentially expose the kid to rabies,I suppose, if your dogs' vaccinations somehow weren't effective. The likilihood of which is close to zero, but...that's the law most places. Now the "administrative" fee, that is punative. But for sake of not starting something that could escalate into something really ugly which involves the mom raising the stakes even higher and trying to get your dogs declared "dangerous" and just generally making your life miserable, I guess I would be nice and be horrified by the urchin being able to climb or crawl into your yard unsupervised  and start plugging up the holes.
I know a lot of residential neighborhoods are pretty particular about what they let you put up, so I suppose double-fencing, a couple of strands of barbed wire and an alligator moat won't be met with approval 
I'm not a kid person, but at age five can't the bugger tell his mother if he scraped himself on a board, some concrete, a fence or a dog? I mean, if I could serve as interpreter for my non-English speaking grandparents by age four, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume that a five year old child knows the difference betweeen words like "dog" and "fence" and how to verbalize both...?
Maybe his mom realized that she was at fault for not watching him and overreacted while imaging the real horrors that could have befallen him or maybe a well-meaning non-dog-loving person did it for her. This too shall pass. If your area is too cold for alligators, we'll be happy to help you think up some other child repellants... 
Kristine  |
| As someone with a guard dog, this is particularly concerning to me. I'm not in any way encouraging anyone getting injured but I'd hate to think of what would happen if my dog did his job. In an invisible fence situation, sure, I could understand. In a secured yard where someone had to go through acrobatics and obstacles to get in, the responsibility should not be on the inside of the fence. |
ButtersStotch wrote: As someone with a guard dog, this is particularly concerning to me. I'm not in any way encouraging anyone getting injured but I'd hate to think of what would happen if my dog did his job. In an invisible fence situation, sure, I could understand. In a secured yard where someone had to go through acrobatics and obstacles to get in, the responsibility should not be on the inside of the fence. I'm not sure that an area that was readily accessible by a 5 year old counts as acrobatics...
This thread has really got me going inside though. My first instinct is to sue the parent(s) of the 5 year old for being negligent and costing you money. Then I wonder if the fact that your barrier system failed to protect wouldn't get you counter-sued and may cause you to lose anyway. So my second instinct is to lick your wounded wallet and fix your fence. Grrrrrrrrr |
| I'm sorry, I thought he had tumbled over the fence, I didn't realize he crawled through a hole. Somehow I skimmed right over that part, |
| What a shame. Fix the fence, keep gate locked at all times. I suspect you are out the $50 but wouldn't it be fun to go after it in small claims court, |
| chain the kid up, make sure the kid's had his shots,,,
more than likley the scratch is from a paw or the fence. every state has different laws about this. i'm sure i don't have to tell you how playful sheepies are. Personally I love the little ones, we're just about nose to nose. love to yours ralph |
| My wife talked to the neighbor at some length. Here is the story she relates:
Firstly, there is no hole in the fence. I have a 6 foot wooden fence, in good repair, surrounding about a 1/3 acre back yard. The back fence is halfway up a slope and on my side of the rear fence runs a gunnite lined ditch less than 1 foot deep and about 2 feet across, maintained by the county. The side fence crosses over it a few feet from the back fence, leaving a small, triangular space for water to run underneath. I had previously screwed a vertical 2x4 to the fence, in the middle of the ditch reaching the bottom and dividing it into two smaller spaces about the size of the side mirror on a pickup truck. This was to keep other dogs from getting into my yard. Even without the 2x4 the space was too small for my sheepdogs, and with it in place keeps out all but my neighbor's Boston Terrier, who is a frequent visitor in my back yard, and five year old boys, apparently. What my neighbor related is that the two women were in the house talking while the boy was in the back yard. Suddenly they heard him screaming. They ran out and saw him stuck halfway under the fence. He apparently got his head and shoulders though and then couldn't get the rest through or back up either. She could see my dogs both standing next to him looking down at the half sticking into my yard under the fence and he was still screaming. My neighbor related that the mother decided that the two dogs were vicious, and then started screaming herself, jumped over the fence and ran up to her son, who had by this time pulled himself through to my side and was standing next to the dogs, still screaming. Mother and son continued screaming at the dogs who were excited. She pulled her son across the yard to the gate on the other side, unlocked the sliding bolt and left by the gate leaving it unlocked but closed. She said the dogs "nipped at her". Once back at the neighbors, she said the boy had a scrape on his face and a cut on his shoulder. The mother then left with her son, taking him not to the emergency clinic but to a personal friend from their church who was a surgeon. The surgeon filled out a report noting a possible puncture which was sent to animal control. Now, two days later the boy is reported to be fine and the scratch on his face no longer visible. The mother continues to believe that the dogs are vicious. No one has offered to reimburse us for the fees and the dogs remain quarantined. My neighbor hopes this will not spoil our relationship. |
| of course they were a little hostile to her they were protecting the child. even 'fooling around' with my family i need to watch what i'm doing. i get excited and nature takes over, it doesn;t mean i'm mean, i'm just doing my job that we've (dogs) have been bred to do and that's protect. |
rfloch wrote: My neighbor related that the mother decided that the two dogs were vicious, and then started screaming herself, jumped over the fence and ran up to her son, who had by this time pulled himself through to my side and was standing next to the dogs, still screaming. Mother and son continued screaming at the dogs who were excited. She pulled her son across the yard to the gate on the other side, unlocked the sliding bolt and left by the gate leaving it unlocked but closed. She said the dogs "nipped at her".
How classically stupid. They're both darn lucky your dogs aren't vicious. In some less polite canine societies, a trapped, flapping screaming child would be considered a toy at best. And you're lucky your dogs aren't "pittbulls" or something like that because in some parts of the country they could be worse than quarantined, they could be dead. I doubt this will make you feel any better, but some guy who was behind me in the checkout line at the hardware store a few months ago noticed whatever my dog shirt du jour was and started telling me about his Chow. Evidently the Chow is somewhat protective, he proudly told me. Being my customary Pollyanna self I said: "look, the fact of the matter is that you have a breed that is on a number of "dangerous breeds" lists" so unfortunately even if the worst your girl would ever do is bark at an intruder you have to be even better than even superbly responsible dog owners in order to protect her from the public, because if she even looks at someone the wrong way, she could be at risk. He was kind of taken aback and slowly told me that just a couple of weeks before he had been walking through a parking lot with her. There was a woman and a young girl, the girl saw the dog and started screaming in fear and fell down and skinned her knees or elbow or something. Now, the dog was on lead and at least 30 feet away from the kid and minding her own business, but the woman (mother?) still started screaming at the guy that his dog was vicious and she was going to report him to animal control. Some places they offer classes to teach kids how to safely interact with dogs (note to self: add respect boundaries and other people's property to talking points!!). Perhaps, if you wanted to be proactive and find something good in all this, you could find your local dog training club and suggest they offer such a program to the schools and so on if they don't already. Also, if your dogs don't already have their CGCs, now might be a good time to find a tester and get that done. Chances are this will blow over, but by the time the kid turns eight and has a juvenile record for B & E, it would be nice to be able to contrast and compare his record to that of your "vicious" dogs.
A leash law for children under ten is probably too much to hope for. Though in Norway - now this is going on four decades ago, so not so sure this holds true anymore - my American mother was agast to discover that Norwegian mothers not infrequently had child harnesses with leashes for their toddlers. She felt very strongly that this pratice was nothing short of barbaric until the day my brother leaned to walk
Hang in there. Kristine |
Quote: How classically stupid. They're both darn lucky your dogs aren't vicious.
Youre spot on Kristine. The only trouble I've had with a child and a dog was with my dalmatian. (Pardon the spot on pun) As my dalmation overtook (dalmatians only have one speed-fast) the boy and his dad in an off lead park. A good 4 feet away mind you. The boy started screaming. His dad reacted by taking a swipe at my dog with a stick. They are darn lucky that the dalmatian was intent on getting to the other end of the park, is extremely friendly and a big wuss. So my boy put his tail between his legs looked at the dad as if to say "what, what did I do" and then continued on his way. I was so furious I decided it best to leave immediately before I got hold of a stick and legal terms like "assault with intent" needed to be bandied about. But why go to an off lead dog park if you child is scared of dogs. One of my Mum's friends runs "in school" programs on how to behave around dogs and how to tell if a dog is friendly, angry etc. She takes her boxer in to the class room in a crate and lets him out to shake hands etc after her presentation. I think she deserves a medal as she does it in her spare time for free. |
rfloch wrote: Andi_Rae wrote: :) Well, Merry Christmas to you and yours...why is it, that we have to pay because of irresponsible parenting. If it were my fenced yard I would file trespassing charges on the parents. An open yard, dog off the leash, okay...but a fenced yard. The kid goes to jail...LOL...how old is he. Plus I would be so sad without my puppy...all locked up in quarantine without a bone and his best friend. Sorry to hear about this. As another poster said 'this sux' He's is only 5 so it is a bit of a stretch to talk about criminal trespass. My neighbors are Mormon and have 6 kids and another on the way and all of their friends have lots of kids. He was one of them. There are always lots of kids next door running around. The irony is that they have a little Boston Terrier too, who comes through the same small hole under the fence all the time. They always ask me to care for him when they go on a trip. The little bugger doesn't mind, bite's my hand and runs off and won't be caught. Last time I had to chase him for hours in the car before I cornered him two blocks away. LOL...I 'knew' he was only 5...I was 'only' kidding and I don't think it would be unfair to hold the parents responsible for such an irresponsible act that caused this man financial distress and heartache from being away from his dogs...Negligence of a child deserves justice! |
| That's me above me! Sorry had to comment because I did read the whole story and was aware...just didn't remember that you were the one who posted it! Still, Merry Christmas! |
Quote: A leash law for children under ten is probably too much to hope for.
The dog that runs loose and poops in your yard or gets into your garbage is not to blame, it's the owner. Same thing applies to kids of irresponsible parents (though I hope kids aren't pooping in your yard or eating garbage ). There are some people just looking for opportunities to blame others for their own foolishness and negligence. |
| People won't accept the blame for their actions - they blame others.
I would be horrified if my child did that, because it would have been my fault for not watching him. I'm sorry you are going through this. |
| I spoke to my insurance agent about my liability in this sort of situation. He advised that the courts default to the kids, as they are incapable of making logical decisions. Nice, eh?
So it remains: Bratty kid - 1 Innocent Sheepies - 0 I guess the solution is to do as a previous poster suggested: pay the admin fee; reinforce your sheepie fortress; and, make certain your liability for dog claims is sufficient. That said, I would have to have a conversation with my neighbor. Nothing even remotely hostile, but something that helps them understand that this whole incident could have been avoided and you sure hope nothing similar happens in the future with their guests. Again, thank you for sharing this with us. It has created a great deal of thought on something I hadn't really spent enough time thinking about. Thanks! |
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