When to spay?
That being said, our puppy is 6 1/2 months old. This past week, she has been jumping the fence to run wild in the neighborhood; she's also bit through two leashes and went tearing off down the road while on walks. I fear for her safetly, and have been left wondering why all of a sudden she wants to be a free spirit after being such a velcro dog. I was thinking that it's the age (finally feeling a bit independent just like a three year old child, but still needing to know her parents are nearby) or maybe it is just indictitive of the breed (they are a herding dog afterall). I mentioned this behaviour to a few people, and they told me that she was more likely entering heat. That worries me because I was told by my vet that she should be spayed before her first heat for many reasons. Not to be cad, but he said it's more expensive and more difficult after the first heat. We had been waiting to have her spayed until January (next month) as our house is extremely active during the holidays. Two of my three children have Christmas-week birthdays, and both will be having children in for parites. We also have a Christmas eve neighborhood party, a family birthday party, and a new year's day party. From what I've read, a dog should be kept quiet in the days after spaying without too much stress or activity. I barely survive the holidays and I've done this for years, so the dog will undoubtedly be overwhelmed. I spoke with our breeder who says that none of her girls ever went into heat before 10 to 13 months old. Also, I know that sheepies are late bloomers. Does anyone have advice on how old is too old to spay? Also, any ideas why she has decided now to run away from home at every opportunity? Thanks for your help. |
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| okay it is more expensive if you wait - but I don't think much more.
it is easier - FOR THE VET - if you do it earlier It is healthier for your dog if you wait - if you can keep her under control. think of her more like a teenager than a three year old. She really shouldn't be left outside without you at this age - apparently she isn't happy out there and that is why she is leaving. Oh and welcome  |
| Maggie chewed her leash...at puppy class they told me to either dip them in hot sauce or lemon juice...worked great as she only tried once and leaves them alone. Have you tried taking her to a puppy class. It really helped so much! We just spayed Maggie at 6 mths...the only problem we had was keeping her down...from the time we brought her home she acted like nothing had happened and wanted to run...we had to leash her to take her outside and put her in her kennel to get her to lay down. She also had 2 dew claws removed and a baby tooth pulled. It's been 3 days and she acts as if nothing happened...Rosie had it done at 8 months and had an umblical hernia taken out and she laid down for 3 days and looked so pitiful. I still can't believe how much it cost...Rosie is 8 so it's been awhile. I know expenses like everything is going up but are vets making it impossible for responsible pet owners to use them? It seems it's 100.00 for any visit and the spay cost with dew claws cost 480.00! Do they really want people to spay their pets? Good luck...I do think training classes will be worth the time and money! |
| early spaying can lead to serious cancer issues (unlike the mammary cancer scare vets use) and research is showing some behavioral issues as well.
here is an article to look at: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf |
| Oh, boy...
Everything Kerry says about the health issues is true. Furthermore, it's pretty unlikely she's coming into heat and that's making her run away. Speak to your breeder, or other serious breeders, or a repro vet for your canine sex ed, not the man on the street who will parrot all kinds of peculiar myths (someone just contacted us - rescue, that is - wanting to surrender a 7-8 year old bitch they had originally adopted elsewhere whom they claimed was a former puppymill dam they'd have for 3-4 years and who had had 11 litters prior to them adopting her - someone other than a breeder care to do the math on that one?  )
1) maybe if she was in standing heat would she feel some compulsion to go find a mate. Mine don't. They vary from no behavioral changes to moping like they're doing a Midol commercial. Bigger issue: if she can jump out, male dogs can jump in. Athletic male dogs. So probably not an OES either 
2) it's unlikely she's coming in due to her age. She could be, but it's on the early end of the spectrum. Mine typically have their first season at 10-14 mos old. Larger dogs mature slower than little dogs. Just like her breeder said. And the age they first come in does tend to be dictated by what's typical in their line. That said, there's no guarantee, so make a habit of starting to watch her tushie now. If she starts licking her privates or you see any hint of discharge anywhere, grab a tissue and do a quick swab to check for discoloration (can be red, rust, brown or something like that) 3) just because she does come in to season does not mean she is in standing heat: ready and willing so to speak (that doesn't mean you risk letting her out to play unsupervised at any time while she's in season, either, since an intact male would probably know what you and I can't determine with the naked eye, eh, nose, you know?) That said, the body leads up to ovulation and then there's a window of a few days or so when they will actually take (get pregnant), and then they're past prime but often get rather stinky. This is what many of us who intentionally breed dogs pay our vets hundreds of dollars to track for us via progesterone testing.
4) Absolutely she is at an age where she will start to test her independence - also called adolescence. That is such an annoying age!!! But jumping fences could just mean she's plain bored and/or under-supervised and not so much at risk right now for an unplanned litter as getting stolen or killed, so, yeah, I understand your concern! Chewing her leash apart....while on a walk with you??? My OES prefer to do their destructive chewing out of sight and they're not THAT quick. She has genuine talent!!! In light of her wanderlust it might just be the lesser evil to spay her in January, but please talk to her breeder about that. Me? I'd listen to the breeder over the vet on this issue, but I am biased. Personally, I prefer to wait until after a bitch's first season at a minimum for health reasons, but she sounds like she's too much of a handful to risk that. The good news is there's a pretty fair chance she still won't have had her first season by January, so you will most likely be able to satisfy your Christmas plans AND your vet 
If you end up not spaying her until after her first season (providing you can get her under control! Otherwise it's just not worth the risk. You don't want to have to spay her to terminate an unplanned litter as that is riskier and certainly harder on the bitch AND the vet - and you! - than a normal spay) you still maintain a aignificant degree of the protective value against mammary cancer, at the same time incurring a number of other health and developmental benefits. You have to carefully weight the pros and cons. Hopefully something her breeder can help you figure out. To survive Christmas celebrations can you hire a nanny or something for her? Pay one of the kids to make sure she gets enough exercise and maybe teach her what leashes are actually for?
She sounds like a livewire. How high is your fence? Is there anything you can do to contain her more securely? You sound so busy with family, perhaps too busy to train her in agility or even obedience, but I bet she'd love something like that. Any possible takers among the other family members?
Kristine |
| Thanks so much to everyone who took the time to reply. A couple of things. I just got back from visiting the vet who is a good friend of the family. He put my mind at ease and was a bit annoyed that the office staff sent me into a panic with the issue of needing to spay this very second because of risks that don't exist. He has no problem with my waiting and doesn't suspect she'll come of age until later on the spectrum. He believes her running off is typical adolesence and testing her bounds. The fence is 6 foot with the two gates being 4 foot (town code) and she has been able to sail over the gates since 4 months old. She looks like a gazelle -- smallish OES but very long legs. Each time that she has flown the coop, I've been in the yard with her, playing fetch or doing clean up. She hears another dog and ditches me for a better playmate. We'll have to work on the fence issue. As for chewing the leash, I appreciate the hot sauce/lemon juice idea, and will try it on her new leash. We did one round of puppy obedience when she was 3 - 5 months old -- perhaps it's time for another class. She alternates between being calm and docile, and a wild child. Perhaps it's a stage but boy, do they know how to test your patience. She's definitely more of a handful than any of my kids! Thanks for all the advice. |
| I talked to my vet about waiting to spay because of health concerns that I read about here. She said that the risk is the same if I waited or did it at 6 months. I was afraid of urinary incontinence. Well, my puppy is now 10 months, spayed at 6 months and she is perfect. I have learned not to let myself worry too much about what I read on the internet. The most important thing is to make sure she does not get pregnant. You really do have to have your puppy spayed. Unwanted puppies are more inhumane than spaying.
I went to the best vet in my area who can perform miracles. I think the most important thing is to go to the best vet you can find, even if they cost a bit more (like mine) than the others in your area. This vet saved my cat's life and many other animals I've heard about who should never have made it out alive. I knew that would increase my chances of having a good outcome. Your dog will be fine. I worried like crazy too. I think it's normal to worry. And, just FYI, my dog acted like a wild child. I thought that after she was spayed she would be a perfect angel. Well, after she recovered she was the same wild little girl she was before. The only problem I noticed with mine is that she had accidents in the house after her spay. It was usually on a daily basis and lasted for a couple weeks. She either forgot her potty training or she was letting me know she did not like that I left her at the vet for a day? I'm not sure. She peed in the house until I caught her and said "outside" and then it all stopped. Good luck and definitely wait until after Christmas. I couldn't imagine dealing with this right now. |
ella wrote: I talked to my vet about waiting to spay because of health concerns that I read about here. She said that the risk is the same if I waited or did it at 6 months. I was afraid of urinary incontinence.
the risk of what was the same? either your vet isn't up on the most recent research or there was some miscommunication. there are definitly different risks with early spaying (before first heat) and certain cancers. |
| All I can say is that the vets at the office I go to are trusted and held in high esteem by my community. I talked with my vet and we decided to do it at 6 months. I have yet to hear someone say that their vet told them to wait. I know that internet postings say to wait but right now most vets say 6 months. Has anyone's veterinarian actually recommended they wait? Just wondering. |
| YES!!!!!!
and he quoted the research - which is not Internet postings, but posted on the Internet. a bit different. |
| When I got Yuki, vet schools were recommending and teaching their doctors 4 months because it was healthier for them. Now, I talked to a friend who is a student there, and they are saying later.
I'm thinking Mequpak will become a man at 6 months, but nothing is set in stone for me. Right now, my biggest concern is just getting the monster to stop trying to suck on yuki's belly! Or maybe he's trying to get to something else. She has been saving herself. hmm.. |
ella wrote: Has anyone's veterinarian actually recommended they wait? Just wondering.
Yes. Mine does. And my breeder just had her talk to someone who had purchased one of her puppies to discuss the real risks and benefits her own vet apparently wouldn't discuss with her. That doesn't mean you can't or should never spay before the first season. It just means you should be permitted to make as educated and responsible a choice as possible. Kristine |
Joahaeyo wrote: Right now, my biggest concern is just getting the monster to stop trying to suck on yuki's belly! good luck Beowulf is 11 months old today and still doing that - to poor Morgan  |
| Well, my dog was spayed at 6 months and I am sure she'll be fine. I just feel like I have to trust my vet, the same as you all trust yours. Maybe the next dog I get I will wait. I am just not going to worry about every little thing but it is nice to know different sides to an argument. |
ella wrote: Well, my dog was spayed at 6 months and I am sure she'll be fine. I just feel like I have to trust my vet, the same as you all trust yours. Maybe the next dog I get I will wait. I am just not going to worry about every little thing but it is nice to know different sides to an argument.
my vet would laugh his a-- off to hear you say I trust him
But I do ask him questions and he will do research and often we both learn things. someone once told me it is called the art and "practice" of medicine for a reason. none of this is to make people feel bad about their choices, just to make sure they realize that the current "practice" is not always based on scientific facts. |
| Ella no one is saying spaying at 6 months should not be, what people are stating is most times vets don't discuss both sides of the debate and give out all the information about either waiting longer or doing it earlier so people can have good accurate information to make an informative decision as to when they think will be the appropriate time to spay.
Most vets push for 6 months on the bitches with scare tatics it reduces the chances of Mammery cancer later in life, might reduce that occuring but does not eliminate it 100% in the future spayed before the first heat or not. They never mention the otherside of the coin and letting them mature a little more. Just been through this with one of my puppy people they rang in a panic to say we must spay her now because the vet said!!! Only mentioned to them a higher risk of mammery cancer, so we had a discussion, supplied them with all the pro's and con's on both sides of the debate and they made the choice "WITH ALL THE FACTS" to leave her till after she has her first heat. They are responsible and have had intact bitches before so they know what is involved in having a bitch in heat and will have her done later next year. It just annoys me they don't give the otherside of the debate to owners of large breed bitches. If they did then it gives people an educated choice weighing up the pro's vs the con's on when would be the appropriate time. Again it is a matter of choice as to when and should not be a scare tatic vets use as a 6 month old bitch is a lot easier and convenient for a vet to de-sex then a young adult bitch and a lot cheaper for the owner too. Nothing wrong with your choice of doing her at 6 months, again the argument is ALL information should be discussed by a vet on both sides of the debate to make the best informative decision that is suitable for you and your dog. A lot of vets here really don't have the faintest idea with larger breeds, they relate all spaying as smaller breeds which mature a lot faster so let's do them all around 4-6 months of age  |
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