Three year old unneutered male, new onset aggressiveness
These are new behaviors for our dog and we have no idea where they have come from. Strategies to correct these behaviors would be appreciated. If they are not gone in a week, we're off to the taxidermist (kidding! (I think)). |
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| Well, that's just not fun.
Background? How old was he when you got him? Where did you get him? What is his relationship with dogs more generally? (how does he play with them?) Does he live with any other dogs? If yes, what are they like and how is his relatiosnhip with them? Is he trained? If so, formal classes? Does he attend a dog park? Does he spend much time with other dogs? Has his thyroid function ever been tested? What's his energy level like? What kind and how much exercise does he get? Breed and general behavior of offensive little dog and has he ever had opportunity to interact with same or one like the little dog? What is the little dog doing when he reacts? (Being walked, barking at him, running around, sitting peacefully...?) How long has this been going on? What came first? Offended by little dog or train? Does he react to skateboarders, cars, bicycles etc? What kind of games does he like to play? With you and with other dogs? How does he react to cats, squirrels, bunnies, critters of that nature? Any signs of nervousness, shyness, lack of confidence with people or any other dogs or new things or...? It's really hard to even guess at what's going on without a bit more background, you see. Thanks! Kristine |
| Is neutering an option? |
Mom of 3 wrote: Is neutering an option?
neutering does not necessarilly change aggressive behavior |
wjsVT wrote: Our three year old unneutered male has all of a sudden become aggressive towards one particular dog in the neighborhood (pulling on leash, barking loudly), a small, innocent dog, and is behaving in a similar fashion when the train passes by on neighborhood train tracks.
These are new behaviors for our dog and we have no idea where they have come from. Strategies to correct these behaviors would be appreciated. If they are not gone in a week, we're off to the taxidermist (kidding! (I think)). well behavior modification takes more than a week, but Kristine asked many very good questions to get you started. |
kerry wrote: Mom of 3 wrote: Is neutering an option? neutering does not necessarilly change aggressive behavior Very true. Hypothyroidism on the other hand can cause aggression and other behavioral abnormalities, so it's still possible it could be hormonally based, just not one of the hormones that usually gets all the blame for bad behavior  .
Another possibility has nothing to do with aggression as we typically define it, but rather frustrated (high) prey drive, which small critters (even small dogs) and other moving things can trigger. On the other hand, there should be other clues one way or another. It's doubtful neutering will do much to alleviate high prey drive if that's what the issue is: exhibit A -Simon's Mom's Garfunkel, a rescue I fostered. Talk about high prey drive. Yikes!  In his case it's just the way he's wired. Pam may have some insight into how she's managing his behavior if so.
Kristine |
kerry wrote: well behavior modification takes more than a week.
Well, you're just NO fun. 
On the other hand, if those are the only two triggers, if it's possible to avoid them till there's a game plan to deal with the issue, that may save a trip to the taxidermist
Kristine |
| you know I think the term aggression is one of the most misunderstood terms we use with the dogs. right now it sounds like your dog is reactive (yeah I know just another word for aggression in some respects) to another smaller dog (prey drive) and an uncontrollable noisy machine (prey drive again?).
Check out the IAABC website for a behaviorist to evaluate your dog and then you should know what you are dealing with and how to go about it. but don't over react! |
| *Thank you for taking the time to ask such great questions and offer advice.
Background? How old was he when you got him? *10 weeks; Where did you get him? *A highly regarded OES breeder. His sire and dam are both Champions, with no genetic defects or aggression in either line; What is his relationship with dogs more generally? (how does he play with them?) *He plays with dogs in the neighborhood every day; our guy and the dogs that he plays with are almost always on leashes. Only once has a dog lunged at our guy, that was about two years ago. When he sees that dog he barks; Does he live with any other dogs? If yes, what are they like and how is his relatiosnhip with them? *No; Is he trained? If so, formal classes? *Yes, formal group and private classes. Does he attend a dog park? *No; Does he spend much time with other dogs? *About 30 minutes each day. He has no problems with other dogs, except for the one dog that has to withstand our guy's barking and leash-pulling, and the dog that lunged at him twice, about two years ago; Has his thyroid function ever been tested? *No, but he's do for his annual physical this weekend; What's his energy level like? *Happy, playful, sleeps during the day when not engaged, somewhat mischevous (hides toys, retrieves them, hides shoes, retrieves them, likes to steel CD's and hide them under a couch (all types of music, mostly New Age); What kind and how much exercise does he get? *Walks about 1.0 to 1.5 miles spread out over five walks per day. Breed and general behavior of offensive little dog and has he ever had opportunity to interact with same or one like the little dog? *Not sure what breed the dog is. I will ask. Our guy has interacted with other dogs of the same/similar breed without incident. The dog that our guy barks at is entirely innocent; What is the little dog doing when he reacts? (Being walked, barking at him, running around, sitting peacefully...?) *Being walked on a leash. When he spots the other dog he raises his head and when the two dogs get near one another (which we try to avoid) our guy pulls on his leash towards the other dog, and starts barking uncontrollably (and our dog rarely barks). Almost identical behavior with passing trains, and similar behavior with people on skateboards and bicycles (all newly developed over the past three months); How long has this been going on? *With the dog mentioned above and trains, about two months; What came first? Offended by little dog or train? *Train; Does he react to skateboarders, cars, bicycles etc? *Yes, similar response to skateboarders, motorcyclists, and bicyclists; What kind of games does he like to play? With you and with other dogs? *Chase a ball, retrieve a ball, tug. With us; How does he react to cats, squirrels, bunnies, critters of that nature? *No; Any signs of nervousness, shyness, lack of confidence with people or any other dogs or new things or...? *No; ****THANK YOU! It's really hard to even guess at what's going on without a bit more background, you see. Thanks! Kristine[/quote] |
| your answers are pretty typical.
couple of things: you don't really say what kind of training. it can make a difference. there are so many approaches to reactive dog issues how can I say this without ruffling a few feathers? Breeders have a fairly pat answer to behavioral issues - they have never experienced it before  you can pm the breeder info if you want and maybe there are others with the same issues
I really think a behaviorist is the best step - the IAABC website has a search feature. one thing that may help and you can start right away is using Suzanne Clothier's Puppy Politeness Poker. it can help refocus the dog on you instead of things he can't control. |
| Since he comes from a "highly regarded, reputable breeder", that person should be able to steer you in the right direction. Possibly you could have them visit & see how your dog reacts to these situations. Sometimes an additional set of eyes is very helpful. Also, have the breeder walk your dog & do any corrections. If your dog is sensing that you are nervous about being out on a walk & being around these things that have set him off, they can often tell & take advantage of the situation. I had a dog living in a companion home several years ago that was babied beyond belief (not saying that is the problem with yours). They also REALLY kept his weight down because they had an bitch previously from an entirely diffent line & different breeder who developed severe hip issues. They underfed him so much that he was actaully 15# UNDER weight! In a sense, always hungry. Once we convinced them not to worry about the weight so much (that doesn't cause CHD) unless the problem actaully surfaced, it helped a bit. Also, I visited their obedience class one evening, run by a very reputable AKC kennel club in my area. While the owner was on the lead the dog wasn't being "aggressive" towards little dogs or other dogs but he was a handful to control powerwise. I stepped in, took over the lead & the dog heeled beautifully & never once even attempted to look at the other dogs in an aggressive way. He knew once I took over the lead that I wasn't going to put up with any misbehavior. Your feelings DO travel down the lead. Along with checking out some of these other very good suggestions made by other people on the forum, see if your breeder can help you out. Any reputable breeder sure wouldn't want a dog with their kennel name on it out there acting up as you mention. On top of that, they don't want something they bred acting like that because the dog is NOT happy & enjoying life! They want to see their dogs being able to handle any situation calmly & sensibly. |
kerry wrote: how can I say this without ruffling a few feathers? Breeders have a fairly pat answer to behavioral issues - they have never experienced it before
you can pm the breeder info if you want and maybe there are others with the same issues .
Well, in fairness to breeders - and the above really does not sound like a major issue as described - a lot of times, how can I say this without ruffling a few feathers - they tend to raise their dogs differently and usually with a bit more experience over a broader range of types of dogs, so may not see exactly what some of their puppy people see - i.e. a dog may have high prey drive (which is in and of itself NOT a bad thing) but learn to express it differently or have different outlets for it. I know one of Mad's sisters went to a lovely couple who had had multiple dogs from Mad's breeder over the years. She came back to be shown and, how to put this politely? Sunny, Marnie and I all agreed she was NUTS. Super high prey drive, no impulse control, no ability to settle. She wasn't reactive, but she just did not understand the concept of "knock it off". At one point she looked like she considered Sunny's Havanese a snack, so breeder finished her and even though she was lovely and the thought from the beginning had been to breed her, we couldn't be sure how much was hardwiring and how much was the fact that she was raised with no boundaries, so she sent her home with her CH to her owners to be spayed and live happily ever after. She was probably qualitatively the best bitch in the litter but none of us would have wanted to live with one like her, so that settled that Her owners adore her and do not see her bad behavior as an issue at all.  At a guess they probably never take her anywhere. Or at least not in polite company But it WORKS for them, so that's OK.
So...behaviorally especially - it's quite possible that when a breeder says: "I've never seen that", that's actually the case. That said, and considering he comes from a reptuable breeder, I bet s/he would appreciate being consulted and quite possibly have some valuable insight. One thing that struck me - I'm still thinking this through, and Kerry's suggestion that consulting a behavioralist is a good idea is definitely a valid one - I was struck by the comment that he normally plays on leash with other dogs. Leashes can cause frustration in and of themselves. Or maybe I read that wrong. Still fuzzy from long drive...zzzzzz Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Well, in fairness to breeders - and the above really does not sound like a major issue as described - to the person on the other end of the leash the problem is it becomes overwhelming a lot of times, how can I say this without ruffling a few feathers - they tend to raise their dogs differently and usually with a bit more experience over a broader range of types of dogs, so may not see exactly what some of their puppy people see - i.e. a dog may have high prey drive (which is in and of itself NOT a bad thing) but learn to express it differently or have different outlets for it. I think outlet may be the key here At one point she looked like she considered Sunny's Havanese a snack,  sorrySo...behaviorally especially - it's quite possible that when a breeder says: "I've never seen that", that's actually the case. and many cases it is because we as pet owners don't communicate enough and clearly with the breeders, and because so much of our dogs self is from environmental and training issues. I have had my share of awful trainers. If I knew three years ago the little I have learned since many things would be different. but one thing a good behaviorist can do is label what we are dealing with and give a common language to use with the breeder. That said, and considering he comes from a reptuable breeder, I bet s/he would appreciate being consulted and quite possibly have some valuable insight. One thing that struck me - I'm still thinking this through, and Kerry's suggestion that consulting a behavioralist is a good idea is definitely a valid one - I was struck by the comment that he normally plays on leash with other dogs. Leashes can cause frustration in and of themselves. leash reactivity and leash aggression is a major issue. but that said this guy will need to relearn how to walk on a leash past his little nemisis dog and the speeding trains etc. Or maybe I read that wrong. Still fuzzy from long drive...zzzzzz yeah yeah yeah - I am home sick again so we are a great pair to be giving advice Kristine |
kerry wrote: yeah yeah yeah - I am home sick again so we are a great pair to be giving advice [/quote]
Kristine The blind leading the blind effect?
You're right - when something is a big issue to the owner, it is a big issue. What I should have said is that it doesn't sound like a terrible issue to get a handle on. Behaviorally, there are lots of worse things. One of the first things anyone in that situation has to do is get past the embarrassment factor. Just because a dog puts on a terrible display doesn't have to mean there is much in the way of real aggression underlying it. But we're programmed to consider our dogs' behavior as a reflection of ourselves, and understandably so. The problem is that when we feel that way, however understandable, we can take a relatively small problem (in the grand scheme of things) and make it worse. Was it you or Marilyn who touched on the "down the leash" aspect of emotion. Maybe both. That can be a huge factor in these kinds of situations. You have to be able to take a deep breath and say to yourself that just because my dog is behaving like a butthead doesn't mean he's a bad dog. When foster child erupted at a small dog (!!) in the parking lot where I train I had a brief moment of wanting to crawl under my car in embarrassment on behalf of the breed. But then I got in her face, interrupted her behavior and made her sit and look at me. Physically held her in place and spoke very calmly but firmly and unemotionally to her until her breathing started to get back to normal and she started to settle and THEN I cooed to her and rewarded that. That won't work with all dogs and certainly not all situations. She's in the beginning of trying out behavior (she has fear issues) and if vocal displays don't work well for her, hopefully she'll try something that works better and is less embarrassing in the process
The key thing is to believe you are in charge and in control. That doesn't mean beat up on the dog, but it does mean behave like you are in control of the situation and any commentary and/or action on the part of the dog are both unnessessary and unwelcome. That's not a solution in and of itself, but it is a first step and something we can control: our own emotions and responses. Kristine |
| ^^^ well put.
the interesting thing here - and what really seems to support the need for the thyroid test is this is an older dog suddenly exhibiting this behavior. because of the nature of testosterone in dogs, as we touched on its not the issue most likely, but could be thyroid. its also not the typical presentation of a dog entering anxiety issues - this really is probably a dog in need of a tune up. |
| All great points. Also, I think it could be as simple as, like people, sometimes dogs just don't like each other. |
CrankyPantsFriday wrote: All great points. Also, I think it could be as simple as, like people, sometimes dogs just don't like each other.
yes and no. he doesn't have to like him - he really can't act on it. |
| Thank you for your excellent suggestions.
We talked with our dog's breeder. The only thing that I discovered was that our dog's mother is on thyroid Rx. That may be a clue. She suggested that I talk with a dog psychologist who has one or more of her (our breeder's) dogs. I left the dog psychologist a message. (I'm glad our breeder didn't suggest that it was me who should be talking to a human psychologist). I talked with our dog's Veterinarian today. He thinks that our first step should be, as suggested above, a thyroid study and a thorough physical exam. We'll get that tomorrow. Our Veterinarian thinks that there is a high likelihood that our guy is behaving as he is based on testosterone outpour, and that he may benefit from being neutered, but suggested that we first consider a consult with a dog behaviorilist (if we want to keep him in tact). Our Veterinarian also brought up the possibility (probably remote) that something may have occurred to his vision, which may in turn be creating distorted and frightening images. Our Veterinarian said he'll get a good look at his eyes tomorrow, and that he may (remote possibility) suggest an opthamology consult. Of note, the barking and aggressiveness on a leash seems to be triggered by the following: an occasional dog, passing train, passing bicyclist, motorcyclist, skateboard, or kid on a Razor. I'm not certain what may be in common to all of them, if anything, other than motion. I have to go rob a bank or armored car tonight, since I already hear the cash register ringing tomorrow. Our friend who is a Veterinarian said today "told you to buy a mut." Updated information to follow. Thank you. |
wjsVT wrote: Of note, the barking and aggressiveness on a leash seems to be triggered by the following: an occasional dog, passing train, passing bicyclist, motorcyclist, skateboard, or kid on a Razor. I'm not certain what may be in common to all of them, if anything, other than motion..
Bingo. Sheepdogs were bred to control things that move. Some of them more so than others. For some of them it's almost an obsession. I'd heard about it but had never seen it till I witnessed one of my fosters who was triggered by cars (OK, and my long-suffering cat... She was thyroid tested, as it happens. No connection there. And spayed. Made no difference. Same to a lesser extent with Pam's Garfunkel who is triggered by small moving dogs (and my long suffering cat). No thyroid test for him, but he was neutered. Made no difference in his case either.
Only thing they both had in common is that they lived a pretty boring life before they were surrendered - both primarily in crates, banished from the household, which is clearly not the case with your boy. The bitch had serious fear issues (pathological, really). The male was just pushy and rude, but not fearful (sorry, Pam - But my bitches voted and they told me he was lacking in basic canine social skills. I'm sure he's MUCH better now )
Anyway, as Kerry mentioned it's odd if it came pretty much out of the blue in an adult dog. Take it one step at a time. If his thyroid is fine, next step doggie shrink. Well, a behavioralist I presume was what was meant They'll evaluate him and give him some exercises to get the behavior under control.
It certainly doesn't sound like aggression. Frustration, yes. You see it a fair amount in underemployed Border Collies, less so in our breed, though if pet lists are anything to go by it's not uncommon either. Got any good herding instructors in your area? A job and a chance to really use himself, mentally and physically, could go a long way towards putting him back in the straight and narrow. Keep us posted, please. Interesting case. Well, maybe not for you , but you know what I mean. I hope
Kristine |
| To my untrained eye.
I would say he isn't getting enough exercise - I know it doesn't tie into this single other dog issue, but if he was given more exercise then surely he'd be calmer? Just a thought. |
wjsVT wrote: I talked with our dog's Veterinarian today. He thinks that our first step should be, as suggested above, a thyroid study and a thorough physical exam. We'll get that tomorrow. Our Veterinarian thinks that there is a high likelihood that our guy is behaving as he is based on testosterone outpour, and that he may benefit from being neutered, really nothing in hte research supports this - except for male on male aggression - which we aren't sure this is the case. but suggested that we first consider a consult with a dog behaviorilist (if we want to keep him in tact). Our Veterinarian also brought up the possibility (probably remote) that something may have occurred to his vision, which may in turn be creating distorted and frightening images. actually that isn't so far fetched.. I was at a seminar when this came up - one way to test it is to see if the dog focusses on the owner at a distance and then foollows them if they move quietly to another position. often they appear to be "seeing" things because they focus on the sound. I have to go rob a bank or armored car tonight, since I already hear the cash register ringing tomorrow. Our friend who is a Veterinarian said today "told you to buy a mut." ahh its only money Updated information to follow. Thank you. |
| Just a thought from a total NON expert,one of our sheepies in the past only reacted this way to anyone of any age or size,riding a bike.Our current non sheepdog reacts to smaller dogs than herself in this way.Both were broken of the habit by me bringing tiny pieces of Smakoes on our walks and as soon as I saw the cyclist/other dog,I spoke to my dog,held out a bit of Smako,thus distracting the dog from the thing it reacted to,both stopped the barking etc but current little dog is way smart,the second she sees any dog anywhere,she immediately turns to my hand and does a little whiney"wheres my Smacko?" lol. |
Anonymous wrote: but current little dog is way smart,the second she sees any dog anywhere,she immediately turns to my hand and does a little whiney"wheres my Smacko?" lol.
And that is exactly what you want!!! Well done!! And, yeah, that is a smart cookie, eh, dog, I mean
Nice work! Kristine |
Quote: Bingo.
Sheepdogs were bred to control things that move. Some of them more so than others. For some of them it's almost an obsession. I'd heard about it but had never seen it till I witnessed one of my fosters who was triggered by cars (OK, and my long-suffering cat... I havent gotten round to registering here but my 9 month old sheepie Tiggy is like that. She will stand next to a dog at the off lead park and not bother about it but as soon as it runs she goes nuts, chasing and barking. If the dog stops running she settles down straight away and ignores it again. She drives my other dog crazy because when he runs she chases and barks and tries to round him up which he hates. They've been together since she was 9 weeks old so you'd think she'd have given up by now. She chases joggers, kids who run and bikes. She hasnt seen a skateboard but I wouldnt trust her. So far she hasnt bothered with cars thank goodness. We are at obedience class working on focus and recalls but so far no change she's deaf and blind to all else when chasing something |
kerry wrote: Mom of 3 wrote: Is neutering an option? neutering does not necessarilly change aggressive behavior True, it doesn't always work. But there is a link between testosterone and agression in humans. Just a thought anyway. |
| Update: Thyroid studies are negative.
Our guy was following scents and whining in the Vet's waiting room like he never has before. The Vet said to our dog "how does it feel to be in the seventh grade?" He feels strongly that our dog's behaviors are the result of an outpour of hormones. I wish I were so lucky. The Vet suggests that we neuter our guy. So much for varsity football. |
| I would talk to a behaviorist as well, we forget vets are medical experts and like any of us have been bombarded by te political essage that spay neuter solves a world of problems. actually at three your boys hormones are on their way down and he might need more activity. I don't have a lot of experience with adult male intact dogs maybe others who have can weigh in? |
kerry wrote: I don't have a lot of experience with adult male intact dogs maybe others who have can weigh in?
None of the intact males I've lived with have had any behavioral issues that would warrant someone suggesting it would be beneficial to neuter them for behavioral problems - if it ain't broke kind of thing. That said, by three he's already had the health protective benefits of sex hormones longer than most pet dogs, so neutering him probably wouldn't hurt. If the sniffing and whining at the vet's office was caused by a bitch in season having been there just recently, neutering him, well, actually it wouldn't necessarily cure him of that, but in many males is should make pursuing the enticing scent a lot less interesting.
FWIW Kristine |
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