Do breeders have different standards for their dogs?
So I was curious what the differences are between some of these kennels? I wasn't sure where I should put this, and maybe people like ChSheepdogs can help answer
Does this not make judging hard? I mean, what do you look for if people are producing a little different from one another? Or does it matter? Just curious! |
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Every breeder has dogs that are different in size, the problem starts when the dogs are too small and do not even meet the minimum height given in the standard and this is a big problem we are having in Europe at the moment.  |
| J it has nothing to do with size you can have a big dog or a smaller one as long as there in proportion, that is all balanced in the overall look of them.
The standard reads - Sizes: 56 cm (22 ins) and upwards for dogs, slightly less for bitches. Type, symmetry and character of the greatest importance and on no account to be sacrificed to size alone. That is pretty self explantry 
Balance of the dog is more important then what the size (height is) so you can have a big dog but not in proportion maybe long in back or too leggy and not that square look from the side, you could have a smaller dog with not enough leg under them and not looking balanced in the body proportions. You can have either big or smaller and overall balanced proportions, that is what is looked at not wether there big dogs or small, balance and squareness from the side view of the dog is what counts. I always say cut the head and neck off and just look at the body shape from the side, does the dog look in proportion both height wise and length wise. That is why there is no Maximum height limit mentioned in the standard only a minumum and the overall balance of the dog is what is desired, as they say size does not matter  |
| but don't the breeders, like the judges, each interpret the standard to mean different things= within the ideal parameters? For example, I have had different breeders (not mine) tell me that two different coat types are the ideal. |
| Interesting! Thank you for expanding on it a little. Learning new stuff all the time here. |
| Being that we've only seen a handful of OES', we were so surprise to see how short tojo's oes' were. They were like mini OES' to us ...which of course isn't bad since our family has always wanted Yuki in a smaller package
Two of the dogs there had a very very distinct chocolate brown color. One person said it was partly due to the food she gave him. Really? I wish I had time to ask what food it was. To be honest, we liked it. |
| An OES should not be a chocolate brown color. Some dogs appear a little brown if they are going through a puppy coat change or have gotten their coat burned by the sun.
I've seen some ToJo dogs that appear to be on the smaller side and some on the medium to large size. The dog/bitch that won the US National this year ( http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org/ ) was sired by a ToJo dog, the same one who was the sire to Mandy's Suzi. The bitch that won the National is pretty average in size where Suzi is very petite. I wouldn't say that a breeder would go out of his/her way to breed a dog in size. They look more for the things that best compliment the breeding and produce puppies that are closest to the breed standard. And Jo, if you end up going to more dog shows and talking to these people, tell them you have an OES and are trying to understand the standard more. After they are done showing, ask to go over (feel) their dog and explain to you about the nuances in the breed standard. Most OESCA breeders won't mind... There are a few OES that are with handlers. Usually they won't have the time. Kerry, no, the coat type for an OES should be harsh texture, not soft, even though there are certainly differences in texture. It's up to judges to feel coats during judges education to understand what is correct. |
What's nuances? 
Now that you mention it, she did say her dog was going through a coat change and showed us gray coming in underneath. |
| Jonah is a ToJo, same sire as Suzi. He's not as large as my Windfields but
bigger than average for Joy's dogs. |
| The standard is the same for everyone in a given country. The way that an individual breeder or judge interprets the standard varies.
Some breeders/judges value height/length balance most, some gait/movement, some head structure, etc.. No dog is perfect, so there is room for subjective judging. You're right, some breeders have smaller dogs, some larger, some who are "more compact" (more bone/muscle), etc.. I assume that each line is different, and each breeder is striving to reach their interpretation of the standard. I haven't been to enough shows or seen enough dogs to be able to do it, but I'm told that a number of breeders/judges can tell which lines a dog is from just by looking at it from a distance. So, there must be some very noticeable differences! For differences between the kennels you listed, you'll have to get an American member to answer (or a Canadian breeder who shows a lot in the US). I know the names, but not the dogs. |
VerveUp wrote: Kerry, no, the coat type for an OES should be harsh texture, not soft, even though there are certainly differences in texture. It's up to judges to feel coats during judges education to understand what is correct. Not arguing that point, just that I have had two different breeders tell me that two dogs had the "perfect" coat type. and they varied greatly in feel. Now I work in textiles as a hobby and I have been told I have a very sensitive hand, but to me one of these dogs had a course texture coat and one did not. just pointing out the degree of interpretation. |
| As Lisa said, balance and proportion are what to look for first, not overall size.... I do have preferences though, as many breeders do.
I prefer a solid dog, the bigger ones tend to catch my eye if they are also balanced. I like a heavier bone structure too. I've developed my preferences over the years but they change as I learn more too. Even though I tend to prefer bigger oes, I have a little girl here now who is tiny in my opinion, only about 30 lbs at 20 weeks old, and I adore her... I am very happy with how she is turning out structurally, and in personality and can't wait to show her. Piper is very balanced I think, compact square body, but in a smaller package |
| As i said to you in my email. You have to decide what 'type' you like. What 'size' you want. What YOU want, not what someoen else tries to tell you to get........
Coats here in the US *ARE* softer than european coats....... we have more undercoat on our dogs here..... that is just a fact. I would be more concerned with health thatn the other............ do they have all their health clearances? do they shake? are there other problems with temperment, shyness etc? Do people tell you not to go to so and so ? is it because of jealousy? which certainly comes in this breed ask anyone that has been around a while. Or what other reason??? Anyone will tell you what they want you to hear. you just have to go with what you know in your heart is right and who you trust and want to deal with. I personally send my puppy buyers to all my other puppy owners to see how i have dealt iwth them....and i will answer any questions you want to ask me. i have nothing to hide. |
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