United States of America - liberal, or conservative?
But - how do you rationalize a solid Democratic victory with the passage of 4 anti-gay state propositions in the same year? Sure, you can see Arkansas passing a ban on gay couples adopting children. I hate to see my beloved home state of Arizona passed a constitutional ban on gay marriage - it was pure political rhetoric and complete overkill, seeing as gay marriage was already illegal here. But the church groups did some really heavy advertising, and AZ did go to McCain, so the conservatives were definitely out there voting. But the other two states to pass gay marriage bans went to Obama - Florida and (gasp) California! So, what do you think? Are Americans becoming more liberal on federal government spending, but more restrictive on personal freedoms? Maybe the Obama victory doesn't indicate a support for liberal policies - it's just a George Bush backlash? Do Americans vote for the more charismatic personality, regardless of ideology? Or, are Americans just really confused? |
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| i think Americans are centrist.
I think the gay marriage ban is outside the conversation because for some reason huge amounts of money was spent on it. I live in NY - not on the ballot, and I got what I thought were insulting and disgusting letters form a group in COlorado campaigning for a local assemble race because "only one candidate is against gay marriage". (he lost my vote over it and he would have gotten it before the letter) One issue votes don't reflect the true overall nature of the population. Before the economic collapse we may have seen a different result here - all politics are local and people vote with their pocketbooks. |
Bailey's Mom wrote: So, what do you think? Are Americans becoming more liberal on federal government spending, but more restrictive on personal freedoms? Maybe the Obama victory doesn't indicate a support for liberal policies - it's just a George Bush backlash? Do Americans vote for the more charismatic personality, regardless of ideology? Or, are Americans just really confused?
I think it's a little of all those things. Last night James and I were talking about Ronald Reagan and watching some of his old speeches, including one where he specifically addressed things like socialized health care. 20 some years ago, it wasn't something that people wanted. Now, it's a huge issue. I think people's wants change and politics changes with them. I think often times people like the benefits that come with lots of spending but don't consider that it comes at a cost in their freedoms. If the government is paying for my health insurance, for example, how long will it be until there are restrictions on the kinds of foods we're allowed to eat (to keep obesity down and other diseases)? I can appreciate that it may be even the best choice overall healthwise but the point is, it's my business if I want to be a huge, fat cancer ridden idiot. I know it's an extreme, but I don't want choices taken away from me. |
ButtersStotch wrote: If the government is paying for my health insurance, for example, how long will it be until there are restrictions on the kinds of foods we're allowed to eat (to keep obesity down and other diseases)? I can appreciate that it may be even the best choice overall healthwise but the point is, it's my business if I want to be a huge, fat cancer ridden idiot. I know it's an extreme, but I don't want choices taken away from me.
New York City and other New York cities, already ban transfats in restaurants. much of this is already happening because the government does already pay an inordinate share of healthcare for those who chose not to carry their own. |
ButtersStotch wrote: .....I think often times people like the benefits that come with lots of spending but don't consider that it comes at a cost in their freedoms..... but I don't want choices taken away from me.
Exactly. I think people forget who pays for all those programs and free give aways. Then they complain about high taxes. Like you say, the more government is involved, the more we loose. Liberal, or conservative - thats where I find it hard to seperate church from state. Most of the differences are moral concerns. God wrote the laws for us to follow and just because we change mans law to accomodate our wants doesn't make it right. Man is confused. The older you are the more you believe in the laws our forefathers set for us, those being "One Nation Under God". But, as people have allowed more and more conflicting (liberal) laws to be acceptable, each younger generation is caught somewhere in between. They don't know what's right or wrong anymore. (Not all) |
| As someone living in Europe this subject really has nothing to do with me, although I would like to say one thing, with the financial situation as it is today Obama will have it very hard to get anything going especially a healthcare system, the system we have in Germany is top heavy and therefore cost a fortune to run, for example we pay 15% of our wages into the health system this divided equally between the employer and employee with the result I pay in excess of $ 500 per month into our system. What you have to realise he will have to get this money somewhere, he wants to cut taxes at the sametime this sort of accounting does not work out. I sincerly hope he makes it and that he does not disapoint millions of people who voted for him. |
mouthypf wrote: Liberal, or conservative - thats where I find it hard to seperate church from state. Most of the differences are moral concerns. God wrote the laws for us to follow and just because we change mans law to accomodate our wants doesn't make it right. Man is confused.
I'm not. I'm quite clear that the moment you bring "God" into politics it becomes "whose - yours or mine?" Brrr. No thank you. We have enough things to fight about and even displace and kill people for on a global scale. It's especially detrimental in what is supposed to be a pluralistic society such as ours. I grew up in a country with (theoretically) a clear separation of church and state. In effect, that just means that we don't want our church (and, yes, we have an official one) running our state. The religious history of the country is, in fact, rather humorous. Once upon a time we prayed to trees and rocks and who knows what else. Then we traded with these people across the ocean who felt that their god was superior to our gods, so they informed us they couldn't possibly trade with such heathens. Our (then) king took it under consideration and decided we needed to convert (we are nothing if not pragmatic). We weren't big on this conversion, so his men traveled the countryside with swords with the following option: convert or die. Converting seemed a lot less painful, so we became (sort of) Catholics, and maybe continued to pray to our old gods quietly on the side (the advantage of accepting multiple dieties is "what's one more?".) Catholicism took hold over the centuries, not just over people's hearts and minds, but their pocketbooks and every aspect of their lives. Bestowed with an inordinant amount of power - by force, not god - the clergy essentially ruled and became substantial landowners and fabulously wealthy in the process. Then this upstart clergyman in Germany broke with the Catholic church there in disgust over the corruption and greed and we saw this and we said, "hm, we have similar problems with this church, perhaps a new one is in order". And so we became Lutherans and our lives improved. Today although there is formal separation of church and state, ironically the (nation) state picks up the tab to keep the churches of our offical religious affiliation (still Lutheran) running, other churches and religions are free to operate, just not state subsidized in that way. When I was growing up I was presumed to be Lutheran unless I chose otherwise. I am in fact baptized and confirmed in that church, though my grandmother was a baptist, so in between those two events, that was actually the church I attended. "Christianity" was taught in grade school - though you could opt your child out for religious reasons - and "religion" in high school, which was supposed to be more encompassing, but in my case taught by an old Lutheran priest whose disdain for two things - anything other than the Lutheran doctrine and women - was quite clear. I had had my share of other people trying to foist their religious beliefs on me by then. Bottomline is that when you bring religion into politics it will become politicized. We even have a political party whose name translates as The People's Christian Party. In the mean time we've become considerably more pluralistic. Perhaps not yet to the point where we have The People's Muslim Party and the People's Jewish Party and the People's Catholic Party, and we probably never will. But one thing is clear: we could never be one nation under God because how would you pick one? I don't think religion is liberal or conservative, I think it is personal and I don't think either "side" has a lock on morality. Maybe we should just go back to praying to our rocks and our trees and look to them for moral guidance. The acceptance that there may be multiple dieties instead of a single entity (in effect) would certainly lends itself better to tolerance of other belief systems than the reigning major religions of the day. Something to ponder perhaps 
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Maybe we should just go back to praying to our rocks and our trees and look to them for moral guidance. The acceptance that there may be multiple dieties instead of a single entity (in effect) would certainly lends itself better to tolerance of other belief systems than the reigning major religions of the day. Something to ponder perhaps
Right on, Kristine. As Mymouth put it: "man's laws" change to benefit our wants/needs. But I also feel that a lot of organized religions skew "god's laws" to benefit themselves. The justification of breaking one of "god's laws" is that they will be forgiven. For example: I live across the street from a Catholic Church. Let me preface this with the church has 2 large parking lots. Some church goers have completely blocked ours & our neighbors driveways, especially on holidays. I have watched our bumpers regularly get hit while they were parallel parking. I witnessed one woman cleaning the dew off of her windshield and with each kleenex she used, she tossed it into our yard when she was done with it. So it is okay to be inconsiderate to your neighbor? Sue, re your question, I still see our nation being more conservative than liberal. I think Obama got elected for a lot of reasons, but I do think he got a lot of extra republican and independent votes because of Bush. I found it interesting also to see how many young people were interested in this election. At least around here, the young twenties population were very pro Obama, and I think that was mostly because of their dislike for Bush. Back on the election outcome, did anyone watch Nightline last night and see the piece on how many guns have been sold in the US since the election? One retailer (Cheaper Than Dirt) said they've been selling $100,000 of guns a day. |
VerveUp wrote: Back on the election outcome, did anyone watch Nightline last night and see the piece on how many guns have been sold in the US since the election? One retailer (Cheaper Than Dirt) said they've been selling $100,000 of guns a day.
I've heard this too. A friend was looking to buy her husband a skeet shotgun for Xmas and she's been told that there isn't a single one left in the state. People are worried that the Democratic congress will take this opportunity to pass strict gun legislation, now that they have a President that won't veto it. I hope that the President and Congress focus on the big bi-partisan issues - economy, healthcare, energy - and don't squander this opportunity on lesser, more volatile partisan issues. |
| "People are worried that the Democratic congress will take this opportunity to pass strict gun legislation, now that they have a President that won't veto it."
http://wbztv.com/local/Westfield.Machin ... 49254.html Don't want to get in to a point counterpoint about gun legislation, but wanted to pass on this link on a recent episode in Ma. The lack of judgement of many adults in this incident even though current Ma law states a child can use a gun under adult supervision is beyond comprehension . Its beyond a heartbreak.... |
zahra wrote: Don't want to get in to a point counterpoint about gun
legislation Yes, apparently you do. |
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