Tails wanted on puppies!
Does anyone know of any such breeder. I understand that living in the US - people prefer docking and are still allowed to do it but I do not prefer it - I like their lovely tails. So this is not a discussion about docking or not docking - I respect other people's opinions. I'm merely trying to get help finding such a thing if it exists. I would go to europe and still might however they are obsessed by vaccinating their dogs even worse than the US so that rules them out most likely. I'd love your help! Judy & Mick (Rigleyman@aol.com) |
|
|
| Not sure if you'd be interested but thought I'd send the link. There is an OES Puppy that is 18 months old that NEOES Rescue is trying to place and she has a tail. I have pasted the link below and she is in MA area.
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displa ... d=12202226 Could be a very good ending for everyone. Michelle |
Saltydog wrote: I am interested in looking for a breeder in the US or Canada who leaves the tail on the puppies - ALL the puppies in a litter. I'm seeking a 2nd OES that would have excellent working ability potential. I do ALOT of herding and other performance work. I do not want a breeder to just leave a pup with a tail based upon sex and markings - I pick my dogs or have breeder pick by temperment, working ability prospect, structure, etc. You can't do this until they are 7-8 weeks, thus this means I need to find someone who has tails on all the pups.
Does anyone know of any such breeder. I understand that living in the US - people prefer docking and are still allowed to do it but I do not prefer it - I like their lovely tails. So this is not a discussion about docking or not docking - I respect other people's opinions. I'm merely trying to get help finding such a thing if it exists. I would go to europe and still might however they are obsessed by vaccinating their dogs even worse than the US so that rules them out most likely. I'd love your help! Judy & Mick (Rigleyman@aol.com) Judy - actually the standard in the US requires docking. |
kerry wrote: Saltydog wrote: Does anyone know of any such breeder. I understand that living in the US - people prefer docking and are still allowed to do it but I do not prefer it - I like their lovely tails. Judy - actually the standard in the US requires docking. Hi Kerry: I know the standard requires docking but many breeds are docked in show settings/standards and yet more and more UPSTANDING breeders in these breeds are choosing to keep tails when focusing on working. Because the OES performance focus is much smaller than in other breeds - I can see this taking a lot longer but perhaps there is such a person out there. I am experienced enough to know that it would be frowned upon and the person would have to have serious gutts in this country and couldn't show successfully in this country. People think tails = back yard breeder and right now - in most cases that is acurate. But it is still a choice - the dogs aren't born docked and thus - can function just fine with a tail. I may not be successful in my hunt but I can try. Judy |
| I don't think that people equate Sheepdog with tails exclusively with back yard breeders. People equate Sheepdogs with tails with English or Australian breeders. Maybe even European ones. In the US the breed standard is to dock; and if you want a "quality" Sheepdog, my understanding is that to achieve "Quality" once must show and be presented with awards for maintaining the breed's standard. Here that standard includes docked tails. So you can either find a rescue with a tail, or import one from over seas. But I highly doubt a "quality" breeder will leave an entire litter with tails. Not when to insure the "quality" you are seeking, they would need to show and they would be concerned with maintaining the breed's standard.
A standard that includes tail docking. Also, if what you say is true, and "more and more UPSTANDING breeders in these breeds are choosing to keep tails " then why are you having a tough time finding one? I would think there would be several to chose from. |
| I would encourage you NOT to limit your search for an OES puppy in North America on the basis of whether the breeder docks the litter or not. There are a few puppy mill/breed for a buck types who are marketing their OES puppies on the basis of not being docked. Examination of their breeding practices reveals that they don't properly perform health screens, have dangerously high inbreeding coefficients, and breed their females every heat cycle. Please be careful. Not docking is turning into a marketing ploy.
I don't know if it's in your budget, but I'd encourage you to look at the websites of some of the breeders in the various European clubs. A number of them use their OES as working dogs and might be able to give you some assistance, and possibly give you comfort in picking out a puppy that would be a good worker. Alternatively, you could take one awesome vacation and come back with a healthy OES puppy with a lovely tail! Good luck! |
Guest wrote: I would encourage you NOT to limit your search for an OES puppy in North America on the basis of whether the breeder docks the litter or not. There are a few puppy mill/breed for a buck types who are marketing their OES puppies on the basis of not being docked. Examination of their breeding practices reveals that they don't properly perform health screens, have dangerously high inbreeding coefficients, and breed their females every heat cycle. Please be careful. Not docking is turning into a marketing ploy.
I don't know if it's in your budget, but I'd encourage you to look at the websites of some of the breeders in the various European clubs. A number of them use their OES as working dogs and might be able to give you some assistance, and possibly give you comfort in picking out a puppy that would be a good worker. Alternatively, you could take one awesome vacation and come back with a healthy OES puppy with a lovely tail! Good luck! You guys all have excellent points that I'm well aware of. I know of several fantastic possibilities in Europe and Australia having just spent the last week chatting with numerous people in these areas. I'm SO very excited to find tons of people doing serious herding in other countries!!! And it is in my budget because I'd pretty much do anything to find a puppy that met my priorities, but I'm concerned with the over-vaccination issues going on in these countries which require pups to be vaccinated before being exported and any show dogs to be absurdly over-vaccinated in order to go to shows. I'd personally prefer to adher to my vets vaccination protocol than one set by exporting agency or kennel club. So honestly - I'm having to weigh my enjoyment/belief of the tail with my concerns about over-vaccination. Europe is at the place our country was at a bunch of (5-7) years ago - doing annual vaccines - which have been pretty much deemed as not recommended anymore in this country by most vets (traditional and otherwise). These days - vaccines every 3 years or better yet- titre-checking is becoming the norm in the US. I'd LOVE it if any of you would have specific suggestions regarding breeders - names or websites. I've found many but perhaps you know of some I haven't spotted yet. There is always a chance I'll find an OES breeder in Europe or Australia with the passion I have for less vaccines and that would be ideal. OR perhaps someone in this country (USA) that exports to Europe and has to leave tails on for the European show crowd. I totally understand and support the concept of showing in a peer situation to maximize and maintain high quality standards for a breed. It was fascinating reading Rachael Page Elliotts newest book - her autobiography - and how Golden Retrievers developed their standard because there were so many "looks" in the show ring. Pagey is by the way the woman who wrote Dogsteps, which is a great book on canine structure and movement and she is one of my mentors in town. You've all been helpful in your suggestions and reminders. I will be ultra careful. I feel I'm somewhat connected to the performance OES crowd enough so that I can elicit their help and the help of my current dogs breeder to assess a pedigree. Plus if I was "brave enough" to start up this discussion - you know I'm someone who is persistant in their beliefs and their research. If I was looking for a Doberman or an Aussie - I'd have in-country choices to consider - as I mentioned more and more of these breeders are choosing to not dock some litters. I apologize for making anyone uncomfortable regarding this topic. It is a genuine desire of mine and I've been upfront about it since the first day I started chatting with other OES people. I love the breed for their mind, for their spirit, for their enthusiasm, their gentle nature with other animals, for their trainability (yes I believe this), and for their athletic abilities - which is why I'm looking for a 2nd OES. I participate in freestyle, obedience, rally, tracking, agility and herding and consider myself a dog person. I know and appreciate everyones passions and they are as important as mine are to me. I wouldn't have the incredible dog I have right now if it weren't for OES standards. I do wish I knew who I was chatting with as you've all been honest and helpful. Pat your sheepies for me. Mick and I are off to move the sheep around the farm. Judy & Mick |
| I know an OESCA breeder would never not dock. Because it's done so early there is no chance of determining the quality of a puppy for show, if they didn't dock the entire litter a wonderful prospect could be lost. |
Saltydog wrote: So honestly - I'm having to weigh my enjoyment/belief of the tail with my concerns about over-vaccination. Europe is at the place our country was at a bunch of (5-7) years ago - doing annual vaccines - which have been pretty much deemed as not recommended anymore in this country by most vets (traditional and otherwise). These days - vaccines every 3 years or better yet- titre-checking is becoming the norm in the US. Judy & Mick Please explain to me what over-vaccination is. We have three sheepies at home two of whom are show dogs, my dogs are vaccinated once a year for all the common diseases. As far as titre-checking is concerned this may be okay if the dog is healthy but what if it has been in contact with a sick animal and has caught a disease how do you act in this case when it may be too late. Parvo can end in death if the dog has no protection through regular vaccination. By the way after a recent show we discovered our dog had caught kennel cough which he passed onto the other two, due to the vaccination they only had a mild dosis and got over this very quickly, luckily we had no puppies at home as this could have ended tragically for the pups. In Europe breeders and show people take the vaccinations very seriously and we do not consider this as over-vaccinating. |
dairymaid wrote: Saltydog wrote: So honestly - I'm having to weigh my enjoyment/belief of the tail with my concerns about over-vaccination. Europe is at the place our country was at a bunch of (5-7) years ago - doing annual vaccines - which have been pretty much deemed as not recommended anymore in this country by most vets (traditional and otherwise). These days - vaccines every 3 years or better yet- titre-checking is becoming the norm in the US. Judy & Mick Please explain to me what over-vaccination is. We have three sheepies at home two of whom are show dogs, my dogs are vaccinated once a year for all the common diseases. As far as titre-checking is concerned this may be okay if the dog is healthy but what if it has been in contact with a sick animal and has caught a disease how do you act in this case when it may be too late. Parvo can end in death if the dog has no protection through regular vaccination. By the way after a recent show we discovered our dog had caught kennel cough which he passed onto the other two, due to the vaccination they only had a mild dosis and got over this very quickly, luckily we had no puppies at home as this could have ended tragically for the pups. In Europe breeders and show people take the vaccinations very seriously and we do not consider this as over-vaccinating. Hello there: The best way for me to discuss vaccinating is to send you to 3 links which are in my mind written very well. You will then see why there are differing opinions on the vaccine question. Judy http://www.caberfeidh.com/VaxNone.htm http://www.angelfire.com/biz/frogholler ... lanco.html http://home.earthlink.net/~pawsreflect/vaccinosis.html |
Saltydog wrote: dairymaid wrote: Saltydog wrote: So honestly - I'm having to weigh my enjoyment/belief of the tail with my concerns about over-vaccination. Europe is at the place our country was at a bunch of (5-7) years ago - doing annual vaccines - which have been pretty much deemed as not recommended anymore in this country by most vets (traditional and otherwise). These days - vaccines every 3 years or better yet- titre-checking is becoming the norm in the US. Judy & Mick Please explain to me what over-vaccination is. We have three sheepies at home two of whom are show dogs, my dogs are vaccinated once a year for all the common diseases. As far as titre-checking is concerned this may be okay if the dog is healthy but what if it has been in contact with a sick animal and has caught a disease how do you act in this case when it may be too late. Parvo can end in death if the dog has no protection through regular vaccination. By the way after a recent show we discovered our dog had caught kennel cough which he passed onto the other two, due to the vaccination they only had a mild dosis and got over this very quickly, luckily we had no puppies at home as this could have ended tragically for the pups. In Europe breeders and show people take the vaccinations very seriously and we do not consider this as over-vaccinating. Hello there: The best way for me to discuss vaccinating is to send you to 3 links which are in my mind written very well. You will then see why there are differing opinions on the vaccine question. Judy http://www.caberfeidh.com/VaxNone.htm http://www.angelfire.com/biz/frogholler ... lanco.html http://home.earthlink.net/~pawsreflect/vaccinosis.html I have had dogs in my house since I was a child, in the fifties and early sixties we had problems with different diseases including distemper, over the years and in my opinion through development of new vaccinations we have reduced these diseases to a minimum and we can rest assured the dog is propected in the best possible way. Of course some alternative medicine may work for some things but I do not really think it will replace vaccinating the dog, people who prefer this type of medicine are a minority and although I am not sure of the regulations in the states I know we are not allowed to show a dog in Europe who is not vaccinated properly, when we travel from one country to another we have to have a passport for the animal with the vaccinations noted and stamped by the vet. As far as travelling to the UK is concerned we have to have a blood test carried out to prove the dog is properly protected against rabies, if you live in an area where you are free from any diseases then you are very lucky, but when you have wild animals near you like foxes then you have to be careful when the dogs come into contact with them. We vaccinate our dogs regularly with no after effects, some of the illnesses stated in the links you added are based on theory and there are pro's and con's on both sides. A lot of illnesses which are now coming to light have been in our breed for years and nobody kept track of these things, over the years and thanks to computers and internet we have a better network and a lot of things are coming to light, it is impossible to say how many dogs died from cancer in the fifties or sixties as in those days the possibilities of detecting the illness were not available, I think most breeders act in the interest of their dogs and puppies and at this moment in time vaccinating is the best alternative. |
dairymaid wrote: I have had dogs in my house since I was a child, in the fifties and early sixties we had problems with different diseases including distemper, over the years and in my opinion through development of new vaccinations we have reduced these diseases to a minimum and we can rest assured the dog is propected in the best possible way. So right! I think it is too easy for people to forget what disease can really do - we have gotten complacent becasue of drugs and vaccinations (this from someone who got an old fashion deep tissue infection after getting a cut and going swimming in the lake  Of course some alternative medicine may work for some things but I do not really think it will replace vaccinating the dog, people who prefer this type of medicine are a minority and although I am not sure of the regulations in the states I know we are not allowed to show a dog in Europe who is not vaccinated properly, when we travel from one country to another we have to have a passport for the animal with the vaccinations noted and stamped by the vet. In my area of New York we had a major Whooping cough epedemic a few years back because parent sbelieved their kids would never get the disease, had no first hand knowledge of how bad it can be and thought vaccinations were evil A lot of illnesses which are now coming to light have been in our breed for years and nobody kept track of these things, over the years and thanks to computers and internet we have a better network and a lot of things are coming to light, it is impossible to say how many dogs died from cancer in the fifties or sixties as in those days the possibilities of detecting the illness were not available, I think most breeders act in the interest of their dogs and puppies and at this moment in time vaccinating is the best alternative. The information age point is well taken - no one knows how many dogs were discarded or died becasue of disease in the 50'2, 60's etc. I remember my second dog to this day - although I only had him for two days. he came for the humane society - a lassie who we named Laddie. he had distemper and my parents couldn't keep him since the treatment wasn't as effective then and was very costly. Its really unfair to blame all ills on something that has really improved the quality of life for so many animals and families - but I guess its easy when you take the improvement factor out of the equation. |
| My vet had a talk with me recently, explaining that she likes to follow what she called the "current trend in vaccinations" which was to do it less often. Now she said that was how it was in Europe, that they vaccinate far less than we do, and have dogs that are as healthy as our own , if not more so. So I'm not entirely sure where Saltydog gets the information that Europeans vaccinate more than Americans.
Additionally; a guy at our park lost his Wheaten to Parvo. He got it from Australia because he said they did all holistic health, and thats how far he had to import from to get a vaccination free dog. His Teddy died of Parvo at about 7 months old; he was the same age as both my girls, and they all loved to play together. While I was horrified at his passing, and his owner was beyond grief stricken, I was also really angry. I did not know his dog was unvaccinated, and he put all our dogs at risk by coming to the park. My pups were exposed to Parvo! But their vaccines kept them safe. Saltydog; I think you have the answers you were looking for by posting here. So rather than continue to give back-handed offense to people who I'd consider pretty upstanding members of our community, why not move on, find your tailed and unvaccinated dog, and be done with it? Unless of course you are not in fact looking for this mythical creature, but rather trying to pick fights over how Americans or Europeans or whoever breed and raise their sheepdogs? |
Darth Snuggle wrote: My vet had a talk with me recently, explaining that she likes to follow what she called the "current trend in vaccinations" which was to do it less often. Now she said that was how it was in Europe, that they vaccinate far less than we do, and have dogs that are as healthy as our own , if not more so. So I'm not entirely sure where Saltydog gets the information that Europeans vaccinate more than Americans.
Allison your vet is correct to a certain extent, in Scandinavia they are now vaccinating the dogs every two years for e.g. Rabies, in the likes of Germany where we have still an occasional case of this disease in foxes we still have to have a yearly vaccination for our dogs especially when going to shows. I have lost a dog with Parvo although he had been vaccinated for this illness, it depends on the grade of the illness and how the dog reacts to the treatment, it is sad when an owner does not protect their dog against illnesses, but even worse when they do not inform other owners that they have not taken these precautions. I'm blad that your girls are okay. |
| As Oscar has autoimmune issues previously discussed elsewhere, my vet checks his titers every year instead of automatically vaccinating him for everything. My holistic vet explained it to me this way. The original vaccine creates a huge army (antibodies) ready to go to war on a specific germ. The subsequent yearly booster, in a dog with immune issues, sends that army to war over nothing, causing a needless inflammatory response.
For the last two years, we have checked Oscar's titers and his levels are still great from those boosters two years ago for distemper and parvo. My vet encourages a three-year rabies shot, which we did this year only because there has been an increase in rabid bats found in people's homes in our area. He is also due for a bordatella booster. We go back and forth on this one, as Oscar does go to a groomer, but is never kenneled. If we do decide to get the bordatella, my vet will never give him more than one vaccine at a time, which does necessitate more trips to the vet, but in case of a bad reaction, we have a better idea of what caused it. (My vet doesn't charge me for the additional visits just for vaccines.) I hope this info helps. Laurie and Oscar |
| I think most vets are going that route (titres).
the individual shots were a problem with mr newfie - none of our vets carried individuals and since most pet owners don't want to make the extra trips they wouldn't order the 100 count doses. |
| Just curious, what are Canada's requirements as far as tails? |
| It's unfortunate that the OESCA is being so dogmatic (no pun intended) on the issue of mandatory tail docking as far as breed conformity. But I believe firmly that once a new generation of OESCA officers take hold, they will be open to discussion and consider making tail docking optional for the OES breed.
Right now, it seems, all discussion related to cosmetic tail docking in the U.S. is being effectively censored at the OESCA, and I find that disturbing. |
| Are you a member and/or officer in OESCA, Cadenza? |
ButtersStotch wrote: Are you a member and/or officer in OESCA, Cadenza?
Hello, ButtersStotch. No, I'm not, but I have been repeatedly and consistently told here and elsewhere that allowing the option of tails in the U.S. breed standard is not a discussion the OESCA is remotely willing to entertain. *sigh!* Otherwise, I know you are in favor of mandatory docking, and I recognize it as a valid opinion shared by many. I also very much appreciate the amount of info and experience you share so generously on this forum, so please don't think that I am trying to be demeaning of your views. |
| No, I didn't think you were. I was just curious if you were a part of the club since it sounded like you knew the incoming officers. I must have misunderstood. |
Cadenza wrote: ButtersStotch wrote: Are you a member and/or officer in OESCA, Cadenza? No, I'm not, but I have been repeatedly and consistently told here and elsewhere that allowing the option of tails in the U.S. breed standard is not a discussion the OESCA is remotely willing to entertain. *sigh!* . If you feel so vehemently about this why wouldn't you join OESCA and encourage members to share your view? Join, run for office, be involved. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: Saltydog; I think you have the answers you were looking for by posting here. So rather than continue to give back-handed offense to people who I'd consider pretty upstanding members of our community, why not move on, find your tailed and unvaccinated dog, and be done with it? Unless of course you are not in fact looking for this mythical creature, but rather trying to pick fights over how Americans or Europeans or whoever breed and raise their sheepdogs?
Saltydog, IMO, has posted intelligently, and not at all trying to incite any kind of controversial discussion on the topic but simply stated her preferences and is looking for help to find her ideal dog. I found this comment a little harsh.... It's a pretty simple question, does anyone know of a quality breeder who will leave tails on an entire litter, and is educated regarding immunity and vaccinations. I personally do not know of a single reputable breeder who will leave tails on an entire litter, but I do know of a couple who will leave a tail on a single pup. Good luck in your search Judy!  |
| Saltydogs' earlier comment of "the more UPSTANDING breeders are choosing to keep tails on their pups" (Saltydogs capitalization for emphasis, not mine) was implying that the folks here that breed and choose to dock tails are not UPSTANDING. I hardly consider that polite. Those people that Saltydog are referring to have always had a kind word for me, time to answer my idiot questions, and have done what they can for the breed, within the breed standards of their country. I don't see why they should be subjected to that sort of verbal abuse. |
| I think you are misreading her emphasis.
I read it as she was using UPSTANDING as a compliment rather than a byb or puppymiller. But there ya go, that's the written word for ya. Please let's all be civil with one another, and enjoy our communal cup of tea. (I need a cup of tea icon...) |
Cadenza wrote: It's unfortunate that the OESCA is being so dogmatic (no pun intended) on the issue of mandatory tail docking as far as breed conformity. But I believe firmly that once a new generation of OESCA officers take hold, they will be open to discussion and consider making tail docking optional for the OES breed.
Right now, it seems, all discussion related to cosmetic tail docking in the U.S. is being effectively censored at the OESCA, and I find that disturbing. With all due respect, I'm not sure you understand what OESCA is or how it works. OESCA does not have the power to censor discussions, on the forum or anywhere else. What you are seeing, among other things, is a host of individual OESCA members expressing their individual opinon that there is no good reason to change a perfectly good standard on somebody's whim. And since the standard can only be changed by the national breed club - not the board, it has to be approved by the membership - you'd first have to have at least a handful of OESCA members who think changing it would be a good idea. Apparently we don't. That's not censorship. That's our opinion and no matter who the board consists of, they still can't dictate a standard change to the membership Further, anyone can choose to show an undocked OES. The standard says the breed is to be docked. It doesn't say a tail is a disqualification. It is a fault, same as say a bad bite (and there is nothing to say you can't show a dog with a bad bite either, we have no disqualifiers per se in our standard) and judges should penalize it as such. Some choose to pretend the tail is not there and will put up an otherwise worthy dog with one anyway. Others won't. I suppose we could crack down on this, but in my opinion, it's not worth it for a number of reasons. Bottomline, if an OESCA breeder chooses to not dock their litters, or individual pups in their litters, there is no OESCA "police" that will come down on them. They won't be penalized by the club. They won't be tossed out of the club. Any breeder, including an OESCA member, can leave tails on if they so desire. My own vet, an OESCA breeder herself, offered to leave the tail on my next performance prospect in my litter (presuming I could pick her at less than an hour old. And I did, as it turned out, but that's not a given) I declined. MY choice. Thankfully I still have one. I.e. there is no de facto mandatory docking. Yet we still overwhelmingly choose to dock. Go figure. 
Kristine ` |
| I was thinking about what you wrote and I was struck by this thought:
"I wonder how it could possibly be considered a fault if the dog's tail hasn't been surgically removed." Surgeries are allowed and not counted as faults if they correct something not a genetic problem, so how can the lack of a surgical procedure to remove a healthy organ be a fault? It's not "as bad as" grooming a dog to hide a fault, or spraying starch or other chemicals on the fur, or tatooing a nose, is it? Am I worng about something? |
Ron wrote: I was thinking about what you wrote and I was struck by this thought:
"I wonder how it could possibly be considered a fault if the dog's tail hasn't been surgically removed." Surgeries are allowed and not counted as faults if they correct something not a genetic problem, so how can the lack of a surgical procedure to remove a healthy organ be a fault? It's not "as bad as" grooming a dog to hide a fault, or spraying starch or other chemicals on the fur, or tatooing a nose, is it? Am I worng about something? No, you're just making it more complicated than it need be. The standard decribes the OES AS IT SHOULD BE. Any deviation from the standard is a fault. In some instances, the standard suggests that some deviations from the standard - i.e. faults - should be considered more objectionable than others. In terms of the tail, the standard simply states that the OES tail should be docked. It even describes how it should be docked. From the US standard: Tail-- Docked close to the body, when not naturally bob tailed. So an undocked tail is by definition a fault. An improperly docked tail is still a fault. It doesn't say that these faults should be particularly harshly penalized as it does in regards to other deviations from proper OES traits such as: Color Any shade of gray, grizzle, blue or blue merle with or without white markings or in reverse. Any shade of brown or fawn to be considered distinctly objectionable and not to be encouraged. or: Jaw Fairly long, strong, square and truncated. Attention is particularly called to the above properties as a long, narrow head or snipy muzzle is a deformity. About the tail it states nothing other than what it should be, leaving it open to being interpreted as just another fault on par with most other deviations from the standard. And, by the way, if docked at the proper age, it isn't considered surgery, even though my vet, at least, uses a local when she docks and does dew claws shortly after birth: no putting the dog under. Neutering is, of course, surgery. Spaying is, of course, major surgery. Both alter the dog medically more adversely than docking a tail or removing dew claws, both are far more likely to result in the death of the dog, yet so far no one, or I should say certainly not the animal rights people, are suggesting that we cease and desist this intrustive and potentially dangerous surgery to remove (usually) health organs. 
Kristine  |
Mad Dog wrote: Ron wrote: I was thinking about what you wrote and I was struck by this thought: "I wonder how it could possibly be considered a fault if the dog's tail hasn't been surgically removed." Surgeries are allowed and not counted as faults if they correct something not a genetic problem, so how can the lack of a surgical procedure to remove a healthy organ be a fault? It's not "as bad as" grooming a dog to hide a fault, or spraying starch or other chemicals on the fur, or tatooing a nose, is it? Am I worng about something? No, you're just making it more complicated than it need be. The standard decribes the OES AS IT SHOULD BE. Any deviation from the standard is a fault. In some instances, the standard suggests that some deviations from the standard - i.e. faults - should be considered more objectionable than others. In terms of the tail, the standard simply states that the OES tail should be docked. It even describes how it should be docked. From the US standard: Tail-- Docked close to the body, when not naturally bob tailed. Mad Dog, The problem is that there are a number of non-radical, anti-PETA (I'm not a vegetarian, I think meat is so delicious!), serious, committed and responsible OES owners in the U.S. who want to allow the animals to keep their tails. To pretend that we don't exist is a denial of reality. The U.S. standard is archaic, and would benefit from a re-evaluation, as soon as the troglodytes preventing this from happening relent. Considering something as gorgeous as an OES tail a FAULT/DEFECT is just absurd. Respectfully yours, Cadenza |
| I think if you feel very strongly about it, you should associate yourself with the breed club. Why haven't you joined? |
bestdogsx4 wrote: If you feel so vehemently about this why wouldn't you join OESCA and encourage members to share your view? Join, run for office, be involved. You have to pick your battles, unfortunately. It is something I feel strongly, but not strongly enough to committ my resources, disposable time or income on at this moment. It is after all, only a cosmetic issue, and the world won't end, the glaciers won't melt, if we in our little island called the U.S. continue to dock OES tails. |
Mad Dog wrote: Ron wrote: I was thinking about what you wrote and I was struck by this thought: "I wonder how it could possibly be considered a fault if the dog's tail hasn't been surgically removed." The standard decribes the OES AS IT SHOULD BE. Any deviation from the standard is a fault. In some instances, the standard suggests that some deviations from the standard - i.e. faults - should be considered more objectionable than others. In terms of the tail, the standard simply states that the OES tail should be docked. It even describes how it should be docked. From the US standard: Tail-- Docked close to the body, when not naturally bob tailed. So an undocked tail is by definition a fault. An improperly docked tail is still a fault. It doesn't say that these faults should be particularly harshly penalized as it does in regards to other deviations from proper OES traits such as: And, by the way, if docked at the proper age, it isn't considered surgery, even though my vet, at least, uses a local when she docks and does dew claws shortly after birth: no putting the dog under. Neutering is, of course, surgery. Spaying is, of course, major surgery. Both alter the dog medically more adversely than docking a tail or removing dew claws, both are far more likely to result in the death of the dog, yet so far no one, or I should say certainly not the animal rights people, are suggesting that we cease and desist this intrustive and potentially dangerous surgery to remove (usually) health organs. Kristine I have to disagree most vehomently with the "should be" interpretation of the docking requirement in the breed standard. By saying "should" you are effectively rewritting the standard and presenting it to be something it is not. The grammatical structure of the phrase "Docked close to the body" makes this an imperative statement - yes grammar was once important even though it seems to have been largely discarded in contemporary society and yes I am one of those dinosaurs that believes it still is important to effective and unambiguous communication. The standard is saying what MUST BE, NOT what should be, NOT what would be nice to be, NOT what could be, BUT WHAT IN FACT MUST BE! Further evidence of this being an imperative statement is provided by the context of the accompanying subordinate clause of " when not naturally bob tailed". If docking was not an imperative part of the standard then why would the first custodians of this breed include the subordinate clause which renders "cosmetic" docking the "failsafe" condition if the dog is not born naturally bob tailed? The breed standards here in North America clearly intends for all dogs in this breed to be raised and nurtured without a tail. In fact the breed standards essentially world wide are unambiguous about this, even in countries where tolerance of a tail has been imposed by legal statute. Very few breed clubs have yet to alter their breed standard to reflect retention of a tail under the legal tryanny that has been imposed on their members. (How could they? Nobody "remembers" what the tail looked like, how it was carried, how it was structured etc., before docking became the "norm" for the BOBTAIL.) When discussing the standard we need to very succinct in what we say and very dogmatic in presenting what the standard says. There are historical reasons for it saying what it does and the standard, in and of itself, is in fact a historical document. As a historical document it is written in the words and grammar/character of it's day. We cannot accurately, and certainly should not try to, interpret it in the lax and inprecise manner in which words are used in contemporary society with all it's grammatical and structural failings. Sincerely, Carl |
Carl Lindon wrote: When discussing the standard we need to very succinct in what we say and very dogmatic in presenting what the standard says. There are historical reasons for it saying what it does and the standard, in and of itself, is in fact a historical document. As a historical document it is written in the words and grammar/character of it's day. We cannot accurately, and certainly should not try to, interpret it in the lax and inprecise manner in which words are used in contemporary society with all it's grammatical and structural failings.
Sincerely, Carl I'm not interpreting the standard loosely, by virtue of docking my own dogs. But clearly some judges are. You need to discuss your objections with them.
Sincerely, Kristine |
| The breed standard has been written to protect the breed as it should be, so I would say Kristine is correct with what she has written. There are certain parts of the standard which can be discussed because of different interpretations which every individual has, although the tail is not one of them. Your standard it requires docking and this has to be accepted as did for years in Europe, but it is not a fault in the dog and cannot be described as such, unfortunately today we are taking the standard for granted, we are accepting dogs who do not reach the minimum height as written in the breed standard as normal but at the same time we get annoyed when the tail is not docked. I have written in other threads regarding this subject and I stand by my opinion if we continue as we are going on at the moment our breed as we know it is threatened from extinction. |
| Just a note: Self serving posts from Betty Ditzik have been removed and are not allowed here. OK, Betty? Please stop the spam. |
Didn't find exactly what you're looking for? Search again here:
Custom Search
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|