Clarification on leash issue
He has always pulled a little espically in the begining. But he is 19months and all of a sudden is pulling me along for the walk. I can't make sense of the change in behavior. If I use one of these harnesses will this eventually train him after a long period of usuage to prepare him for his loose leash? Or will I be using a harness or some other device for life? I came up with these harnesses in my search and would like recs for my problem. He's choking/gagging himself because he's trying to sprint ahead of me. He by no means walks next to me. I now have shin splints. But I don't want to use a harness with muzzle if thats possible. I want the most humane/non painful harness. Something that corrects and hopefully teaches good behavior. The ones I jotted down were:Martingale, Gentle leader, limited choke(? weary of a choke collar of any type), No slip collar, gentle leader halter or harness(do the harness have a muzzle)? Also he weighs 75pds and is not huge IMO. I'm thinking a large. please help |
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| I just woke up - so I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but why don't you just train him not to pull?
Any of the collars or harnesses are just tools - the real work needs to come from you. If you allow him to pull, he will continue to pull. Regardless of equipment. Granted, some of the equipment will limit the amount of puling your dog can do - but unless you train him at the same time, your dog is not learning - just not pulling at that moment. If you need help, find a good trainer near you. Being pulled by your dog is not fun. It just becomes a bad habit.  |
got sheep wrote: I just woke up - so I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but why don't you just train him not to pull?
Didn't sound rude to me. That was my first thought too. But there are a lot of people out there that really don't know where or how to begin training & they need help in that area so they have a dog they can enjoy. I would seek out a good training center that uses the praise & reward method of training. Go visit a class session to see how the class is run & if you'd feel comfortable with their methods. A 6 week session of 1 class a week with about 10 minutes of practice daily should have your dog & you going on a comfortable, enjoyable walk. In the mean time, until you find a training center, I would try walking you dog with a slip (choke) collar & everytime he starts to pull, YOU stop dead in your tracks. Don't yank back on him, just stop walking & say "with me". He will give himself a correction this way along with hearing the command of "with me". Of course some dogs take longer for the proverbial light bulb to go in their head & connect the correction with the command (I have one of those here in a show home!). But eventually he will connect the command with the unpleasant feeling of the correction & while you are walking all you have to do is occasionally say "with me" to get him to slow down a bit & walk your speed. I would suggest a pinch collar but there again you need to have someone trained in the field to help you purchase the correct size & show you how to fit it & use it properly. And as mentioned in a previous post, it is only a training tool anyway which you want to work away from eventually. I use them when I have a particularly "stubborn, hard-headed" dog. |
Ah Dawn I have been a awake for hours and your response is exactly what I thought. Of course I still have to stop and ask Marley where does she think she is going every once in a while - its quite comical cause now that she is three and has a brain  she sort of sighs and walks back to be next to me - yes our training needs to be improved |
| There is no private trainers I can find in the phone book I live in the sticks. There is a obiedance class about 20 mionutes away but have never heard anything good from it.
And of course I would looovvee to have a dog thats walks well-behaved on his leash and doesn't pull me. I do use the method of stopping dead in my tracks when he starts to pull (Sometimes he worse on the evening walks moreso than morning and afternoon) and I say a command to stay with me. But it has been failing miserably! I would love the help of a professsional I just don't have the resources available to me at the moment. Except for the 1 training school I mentioned above, but I will consider it as a last resort. The good news is that we are moving to larger city down south in December. So I'm sure I'll be able to get some 1 on 1 training or a good group class or both for him. I was asking about the harness/collar as a temporary fix slash tool for improvement until we can get to the proper training. He did master 1 thing with his walking. He stops and sits (usually without command) before we cross the street. I'm so happy he does this. My mom and I worked on this with him so just in case he ever got loose he MAY remember what his mom taught him and lessen his chance of being struck by a car. Any other suggestions for ways I could train him on my own until we have the resources for professional help would be greatly accepted. And just to clarify-I of course want to train him not to pull. I by no means want to use a special collar all the time. I realize very clearly that he needs training to achieve this task. Not saying all dogs do, because my one dog just was less excitable and was a lazy guy. But my sheepie loves being out with me and he just lets his excitement get the best of him. And he gets out a lot during the day but I think he knows when it's evening=A long walk with me and thats his favorite part of the day. I just want some help in the meantime, please. |
| behaviorists now believe the prong collar is the safest and easiest to use on the dog. we use one occassionally on the newfie puppy (who is over 100 pounds at 9 months and I am eyeing saddles for him) |
| You have a few options, collar/harness-wise. There are head collars (Halti, gentle leader), body harnesses and slip or limited slip collars (chain/choke, martingale, prong).
I've never had any success with a head collar - Barkley doesn't respond to them, and will not get up once you put one on. He's not pulling with it on (pulling problem solved?), but won't move. Lots of people here have had wonderful successes with the same collars. There is no cure-all - it'll depend in part on your dog. I've never used or tried to use a body harness. I've seen some that are to deter jumping and some that are to deter pulling. Hopefully someone else can chime in. I've had a lot of success with a pinch/prong collar. This collar isn't for everyone, and certainly isn't for every situation. The more stressful I think the situation is going to be, the less likely I am to use his prong (Barkley wears both a prong and a regular collar so I can switch back and forth easily). I don't want his prong to be a punishment, but a training tool. In fact, he gets more excited about a walk if I grab the prong than if I don't. Maybe those walks are unconsciously longer since they're more enjoyable for me... I'll have to watch that. The prong works on the principle that the dog is "self-correcting" when they pull. The more they pull, the more it hurts. If they don't pull, they get no correction. I'm glad to say that I'm using the prong less and less all the time, so, in our case, it's working (or seems that way - maybe the training is working and the prong just made that a little easier). I think the important thing to remember is that the training you do with whatever collar you choose is the important bit. Just getting a collar and using it will prevent the behaviour only when that collar is on. Using the collar to help you in your training will enable you to better control your dog no matter what collar he/she is wearing. I'm pretty sure that someone here has used just about every possible collar type, so you should get a fair number of good responses. Keep in mind that every one of us has a different handling technique and a different dog, so the solution that works for me (or anyone else) may not work for you. You may need to try a variety of the different options before you land on something that works. |
Another tip I use when Heart begins to pull I immediately switch direction...and I keep doing that...walk a little, about turn, walk a little, about turn....(I don't get very far on walks like this  ...BUT it makes her look at me to see where she should go.
Also, I practice, watch me exercise. I take a treat, when she is looking at it, I bring it to my face and say, "Watch me"...it helps for Heart to focus on ME while walking. I have also used a prong collar..it helps as a training tool..I don't put it on her much anymore, unless I know we are going some place where I know there will a lot of distractions. I cannot use a choke collar on Heart...Her hair is sooo fuzzy that when I pull, it gets caught in her cotton and won't release. I have tried ALL kinds of chokes..thin ones, one with frabric threaded through...none work !! You can also try a haltie or gentle leader they work for many puppies. Good Luck and keep us posted on your progress!!!!!! |
| ^ OK, I've read mixed reviews about it but as the poster stated above, I need a professional to fit him with the right collar? Am I quoting that correctly? I just am a little leary of inflicting any pain. BUT as I said I only have read a small amount on them , so I am by no means saying it is right or wrong.We each train our own way.
EDIT-I was pointing up to the poster that first mentioned the prong. I didn't see the other 2 new responses. I will try a few of the techniques mentioned above. thanks for the tips and I'll let you all know if we are making improvement. |
SheepiePoo wrote: ^ OK, I've read mixed reviews about it but as the poster stated above, I need a professional to fit him with the right collar? Am I quoting that correctly? I just am a little leary of inflicting any pain. BUT as I said I only have read a small amount on them , so I am by no means saying it is right or wrong.We each train our own way.
No, you don't strictly need a professional to help fit a prong. There are a number of good resources on the web that have photos or videos that show how to get a correct fit. Some prongs even come with a set of photos or a video to help you out (I think one of the head halters does as well). It may be easier, but isn't strictly required. They do inflict some pain, but not as much as you might think by looking at them. I've worn Barkley's around my neck and leaned into the leash. Enough pain to make me stop, but not enough to do damage (and I don't have the same thickness of skin, extra skin in the neck area, or hair as he does). If you don't feel comfortable with the prong collar, go another direction. Make sure you get something you'll feel comfortable using, otherwise it'll be just another piece of "dog stuff" that sits in a drawer and never gets used (and certainly won't help with your pulling problem). |
| Ok, thanks Craig. Yeah, I just don't want to inflict pain by any means. But a little sting or whatever you may call it, is not like I thought it was going to be like. I just envisioned them as a horrible tool.
Maybe or maybe not I'll try it. Just to see if it works. If he doesn't pick up on it then I wont continue usuage. And switch to something more effective. He's bright and knows how to get what he wants so maybe he will figure this one out with the help of a prong. I'm noit sure though, I'm going to think about it. |
| Where do you live, Sheepiepoo?
Maybe someone here knows of some places you can try. Lots of us drive a distance to go to good classes. Not to sound like a snob, but I have people driving an hour for mine - because they either don't have any closer or they don't like the ones near them. Definitely get some referrals, go sit in on some if you can. Any instructor worth going to should welcome you to sit in on their classes and talk with you either before or after. I would be leary of having you use a prong/pinch collar without some instruction. Do you have any good stores near you where you could get one - providing they had some real knowledgeable staff to show you what to do and not to do? My 1st choice would be to have you use a regular buckle or martingale/limited slip 1st, and I would watch what is happening. Usually it is something the human is doing or not doing, and hard to fix unless you have someone point it out to you. (In reference to your statement about the fact that you do stop and he still pulls, and also that this is a relatively new behavior for your dog.) That is why I go to classes myself - I need that feedback from another person. Also, it gets us both out in another environment, with new stimuli to test us as a team. |
geesh dawn only an hour 
actually I wanted to reinforce driving to a good class - I go two hours to herding and all my other classes are an hour away - although I am checking out a new agility class only 40 minutes away  I am soo excited. |
kerry wrote: geesh dawn only an hour
actually I wanted to reinforce driving to a good class - I go two hours to herding and all my other classes are an hour away - although I am checking out a new agility class only 40 minutes away I am soo excited. Thanks kerry....I was on the hokey old Apple computer at school, and I couldn't get the emoticons to work.....Plus the kids were coming back from lunch and kept poking at the mouse and keyboard.
I am driving almost 7 hours this weekend to go to a carting/mushing training session, so I totally understand! You need to do like I do - teach the class or host the herding classes at your own farm - it really saves on driving time!  |
| I would never use a prong on any dog and in some European countries it is illegal to use such a collar, when Zorro came to us he had never been walked on a leash and he pulled a lot, at 19 months he was very strong and this was a problem for my wife. Walking with three sheepies on the leash is hard when one is pulling. Over the last couple óf weeks I have been training with him (up until now I have had very little time due to my work) I went out with him alone when he started pulling I stopped and refused to move, after a short time he learned that if he pulls we stop and only carry on walking when the leash is loose this has worked and I am happy to say he now walks super on the leash with the other two. I always say it is mind over matter: if you don't mind the time it takes doesn't matter |
dairymaid wrote: I would never use a prong on any dog and in some European countries it is illegal to use such a collar.
I always say it is mind over matter: if you don't mind the time it takes doesn't matter Everyone has their own methods of training & equipment. I even have different methods for different dogs....all of the same breed. I have only used a prong collar on 2 of my many dogs. Both were bitchs, one with a very dominant personality & the other is one who just won't slow down enough brainwise to absorb what I need her to learn which is simply what speed I need her to trot at in the show ring! In each case I only had to use the prong collar a few times with them before that part of the training was done. I couldn't see wasting the ring presence let alone all that went into the breeding of these 2 by not using what I felt was the best method to train each. I felt the other prolonged methods would have broken the spirit of each & they would have hated the show ring. As for walking on a lead, there was never a problem before or after the use of the prong. |
| it really is a shame the prong collor looks so menancing - if you tried one on your arm or neck or whatever you would see that properly used there is no pain - just a pressure that says - hey slow down a bit there. |
| There was a study done about prongs and the dogs that owners used a reg choke vs prong had far more damage done to the trachea than the prong users. This was a long study and necropsy was performed. I go to many dog events with the GSD rescue I am involved in and many ban prongs. Why?/ People use them wrong and "hang" the dogs and cause pain A prong should be used for self correction only. I would think a sheepdog in full coat may not self correct as much and it may damage the hair. I have used a prong twice in my life once on a very big GSD and on a wild foster sheepdog in order to get him to and from the vet so he did not pull me to china!!! Leerburg (I think that is spelled right tired this am)has good advice on how to fit and use a prong. That is my 2 cents |
kerry wrote: it really is a shame the prong collor looks so menancing - if you tried one on your arm or neck or whatever you would see that properly used there is no pain - just a pressure that says - hey slow down a bit there.
I disagree with the above statement, I am sure you did not use the same pressure that is applied when an adult sheepie is pulling on its leash. It is a known fact that a dog who takes off and is stopped by this type of collar can suffer serious injuries to its neck. When training dogs you have to have patience and do things gently, when our dogs pull we always stop wait and only carry on walking when the dog returns to our side, believe me they learn quickly. |
dairymaid wrote: kerry wrote: it really is a shame the prong collor looks so menancing - if you tried one on your arm or neck or whatever you would see that properly used there is no pain - just a pressure that says - hey slow down a bit there. I disagree with the above statement, I am sure you did not use the same pressure that is applied when an adult sheepie is pulling on its leash. It is a known fact that a dog who takes off and is stopped by this type of collar can suffer serious injuries to its neck. When training dogs you have to have patience and do things gently, when our dogs pull we always stop wait and only carry on walking when the dog returns to our side, believe me they learn quickly. No its not well known - as 4dog night said the actual research shows choke collars are worse than prongs. and newer research is finding head collars cause more damage than prongs as well. no one is saying to corrct a dog with a prong (and yes I have seen an idiotic man do that). the prong prevents the sheepie from pulling - he just doesn't do it. I used one on a rescue who wasn't adoptable because of the pulling issue. we took him, used a prong (and by that I mean put one on him and he stopped pulling pure and simple) for a few weeks and went back to the martingale alone. we use one now with our 9 month old newf as he learns what hormones are all about we put it on - he dosen't pull. and I reward him for walking nicely. |
kerry wrote: dairymaid wrote: kerry wrote: it really is a shame the prong collor looks so menancing - if you tried one on your arm or neck or whatever you would see that properly used there is no pain - just a pressure that says - hey slow down a bit there. I disagree with the above statement, I am sure you did not use the same pressure that is applied when an adult sheepie is pulling on its leash. It is a known fact that a dog who takes off and is stopped by this type of collar can suffer serious injuries to its neck. When training dogs you have to have patience and do things gently, when our dogs pull we always stop wait and only carry on walking when the dog returns to our side, believe me they learn quickly. No its not well known - as 4dog night said the actual research shows choke collars are worse than prongs. and newer research is finding head collars cause more damage than prongs as well. no one is saying to corrct a dog with a prong (and yes I have seen an idiotic man do that). the prong prevents the sheepie from pulling - he just doesn't do it. I used one on a rescue who wasn't adoptable because of the pulling issue. we took him, used a prong (and by that I mean put one on him and he stopped pulling pure and simple) for a few weeks and went back to the martingale alone. we use one now with our 9 month old newf as he learns what hormones are all about we put it on - he dosen't pull. and I reward him for walking nicely.You say in the thread above you only feel a slight pressure with a prong collar, as I said you do not apply the same pressure that the dog applies when pulling, unfortunately people who use this type of collar have never heard of injuries being caused by these collars serious or not. If these collars inflicted just a slight pressure then your dog would continue pulling, any type of choke chains are for a special type of training and certainly not to stop a dog pulling. I disapprove of anyone using a prong collar since I feel it is not appropriate for our breed of dog. |
dairymaid wrote: kerry wrote: it really is a shame the prong collor looks so menancing - if you tried one on your arm or neck or whatever you would see that properly used there is no pain - just a pressure that says - hey slow down a bit there. I disagree with the above statement, I am sure you did not use the same pressure that is applied when an adult sheepie is pulling on its leash. It is a known fact that a dog who takes off and is stopped by this type of collar can suffer serious injuries to its neck. When training dogs you have to have patience and do things gently, when our dogs pull we always stop wait and only carry on walking when the dog returns to our side, believe me they learn quickly. What kind of injuries? Are you talking whiplash type injuries (which I would think could happen even in a regular buckle collar if a dog were to take off with enough vigor) or injuries like contusions or cuts? If it's the latter, I've never personally heard of that happening and the only thing I found related to injuries when I did a quick look was this: http://www.8pawsup.com/articles/trainin ... llars.html Quote: Study of Prong Collars in Germany (Information about study taken from an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar) 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong. The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed. Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma. Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma. |
| see i have never had a dog pull on the prong. if your dog starts to walk away from you and you have your hands (fingers) around his/her neck don't they stop when you slightly tighten your grip? mine do. - now if they were to take off chasing something it might be a different story - but I have never had that happen. |
kerry wrote: see i have never had a dog pull on the prong. if your dog starts to walk away from you and you have your hands (fingers) around his/her neck don't they stop when you slightly tighten your grip? mine do. - now if they were to take off chasing something it might be a different story - but I have never had that happen.
I agree Kerry...... I reason I have used a prong is, as I have stated the choke 'catches' on all the fuzz and actually stays tight...I have to continually manually loosen it every time Heart pulls. The prong, is much less invasive as it 'grabs' around the hair and releases. I am sure the 'prongs' never touch her skin because of her very dense fluff. |
| derby is going through the pulling again i found whqat works the best is a gentle leader .. good luck |
| I've put the prong collar on my own neck and tugged and pulled. It does NOT hurt at all, and I'd guess my neck is more sensitive than my dog's neck. When he wants to go for a walk, Mulligan brings his prong-collared leash to me or to Joan.
I don't know for sure WHY they don't pull on the prong collar, but they don't. It seems like they feel it's OK or acceptable to pull against the flat strap collar, but it's wrong to pull against the prong. I'd guess that the prongs feel a little bit uncomfortable, or perhaps like mother's teeth when she corrects with her mouth. I dunno. |
| I've put a prong collar around my neck and tugged - and it hurt like heck! Maybe I have a sensitive neck or a low pain threshold or something, but the prongs felt a lot like a whole bunch of teeth about to pierce my jugular. Also, the first (and only) time I used a prong collar on Fitz, it scared him so much that he turned around and bit me. Not to mention that the prongs got totally wrapped up in his fur.
I much prefer Gentle Leaders.  |
maf wrote: I've put a prong collar around my neck and tugged - and it hurt like heck! Maybe I have a sensitive neck or a low pain threshold or something, but the prongs felt a lot like a whole bunch of teeth about to pierce my jugular. Also, the first (and only) time I used a prong collar on Fitz, it scared him so much that he turned around and bit me. Not to mention that the prongs got totally wrapped up in his fur.
I much prefer Gentle Leaders. the proper use of a prong does not involve tugging. be careful with the gentle leaer they are causing many cervical injuries to dogs. http://cahas.bravepages.com/Injuries%20from%20Head%20Halters.html "In reality these devices are appropriate for use on the obedient dog that never becomes excited, never tries to break lose or run at, over, or after another dog. It is virtually impossible for the amateur owner/trainer/handler to control a dog without jerking his head in the opposite direction from which his body is traveling. It is also impossible to pull hard enough to stop the dog intent on mischief-without cutting the skin under his ears, or worse, damaging the skull structures that protect the middle and inner ear and brain stem. The result of this could be Vestibular Syndrome, a neurological injury to the nerves of the inner ear that control the balance mechanism of the animal, damage to the spinal cord, and dislocation, perhaps fracture, of the cervical vertebrae." |
| I have used both a prong collar and a halter and have had success with both. But my most successful training tool was a really yummy reward.
When working on walking with me we walked circles in our yard with a buckle collar and the leash - I would say "HEEL" and when I got the heel position I wanted Miley got a treat. The treat delivery was along the side seam of my pants. I then did this during our routine walks - started with a prong collar, then went to a harness, and now walk with a buckle collar. I am back to using the harness because I have fairly good control with it and I am now working on walking with the new little brother. |
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