THIS CIRCUS MAKES ME SICK

After attending a show in Germany yesterday and seeing Zorro being placed third with a "very good" I was of course dissapointed, at the end of the show to see a bitch being awarded th BOB "best of breed" who was at least 1" smaller than the minimum height given in the standard I was very angry. :twisted:

I have been showing my sheepies now for quite a few years, in this time I have seen many things and I have now reached the point that I am no longer prepared to accept this situation. As a breeder / show person we have certain responsabilities to our wonderful breed and I do not see one of these as trying to breed miniture sheepies "Bonsai Bobtails" as I like to refer to them. :cry:

With a heavy heart I have decided that yesterday was my last show I will retire and just keep my dogs as pets and leave the showing to other people, showing is a very expensive hobby and I have wasted my holidays over the past years going to shows to see judges abuse their office to promote their so called friends. :twisted:

Many thanks to all of you who have sent their best wishes for Zorro and be assured he will be well looked after but once again the breed is going to lose another good stud dog because of corruption and deceit, I personally feel sorry for those people who were cheated out of a challenge certificate for the German and International Champion to allow a bitch who in my opinion deserved a "very good" receive this acclaim.

Thankfully most Judes are honest but the twisted ones are being used more and more and our breed is suffering through this, I wish all my many friends in the show circuit well and lots of success, I have enjoyed my show era and regard myself lucky with the acheivements made with Misty but now I feel it is time to say goodbye.

Respond to this topic here on forum.oes.org

oh I'm so sorry to hear about your experience! And sorry we are losing you as a "role model" and 'spokesperson" for this breed and its breeders. Please don't retire permanently; perhaps a break will suffice?

Darth Snuggle wrote:

Ditto to what she said!!!

I'm going to ditto myself too, and elaborate.

I have decided (nice of me, huh?) that you should take a much earned break. And then, when they least expect it, come back to showing and kick all their surprised and unprepared butts with the best sheepies anyone has seen... well since you left!

Stewart it happens world wide, I know how frustrating it can be, just hang in their for the benefit of your OES, for every so called bad decision it seems to rectify itself with a truly honest and good one.

With the standard there is no minumum or Maximum size for bitches, ours read, 22 inches and above for dogs and slightly less for bitches.

Believe me with some judges and the you pat my back and I pat yours, we have plenty here in Australia that have the breed and show, not exclusive to Germany happens all over. I have been frustrated many a time, but I still believe for every bad judge there is good ones that honestly judge the dog and not who is holding the lead. :wink:

At the moment I am enjoying for the first time in many years (over 15)doing obedience with my new pups and later on just getting their Conformation Title only for maybe breeding purposes into the future.

Just want to say also with how zorro came to you and how he is now you have been a god send to this special boy, just re-think the situation, we have all been there as far as the show side is concerned, but again I re-interate for every bad corrupt decision there is good ones that do blossom. Those judges that do the wrong thing in the long term end up suffering through word of mouth and no entries next time they judge the breed. So take a deep breath and keep going for your sake and the breed sake.

I have had 32 years in the breed and I know exactly how you are feeling but it does rectify itself in the long term. :wink:

Sorry you are feeling this way, I have and I am sure many of us have also, but to me it is the breed that is important, so I do continue on for their benefit.

Sheepie hugs to you and sit back and think the whole situation through and have a break and hopefully you come back with a vengance and drive to succeed, especially with Zorro, he is well & truly worthy of being a Champion.

Persistance & determination pays off in the long term :wink:

Although, I have no experience in the show world it has really
bothered me to hear of Miniature OES and also Australian Shepherds.
I have an aussie who is "Standard"....I can't even stand to look
at Dog Fancy and see all the "Mini Aussies"
I also have two mutters who look like OES but, they are only
35/45 lbs.....
I call them exactly what they are.......
"My babies"
They are mixed of who knows what!

Stew I hope you continue to further the breed as frustrating as
it may be!

Good LUck!

It happens in any show. That is the reason my daughter and I stopped horse shows. The same folks won all the time along with the more affluent ones . Money especially old money talks in the horse world.

lisaoes wrote:

Persistance & determination pays off in the long term :wink:

What Lisa Said....I couldn't say it better myself. Remember your montra for Zorro "Your shooting star". Take a break and then come back full force! Good luck!

Donner's Mom wrote:

Although, I have no experience in the show world it has really
bothered me to hear of Miniature OES and also Australian Shepherds.

Kathy - there are no intentionally bred minature OES (thank dog!) There may be some who come in under standard (the standard only addresses height, not weight - lbs doesn't tell me much because it could indicate a dog/bitch has no bone, but can still be within standard in terms of height - a friend's rescue OES is slightly taller than most of my guys - who are all within standard - but weighs about 15-20 lbs or so less. Is she a miniature? Not really.

I've only seen/heard of two undersized bitches to date from showlines; one went on to become an awesome performance dog with multiple CH normal-sized siblings, the other a pet, same deal with normal sized/CH siblings. Both I think were about 19-20" at the withers, clearly undersized.

Whatever bitch Stewart's talking about could conceivably be within standard. She may have looked small if the entry was full of tall dogs. In the US just recently a bitch had a big win and finding a best of opposite that didn't look ridiculous relative to her must have been a challenge because she apparently dwarfed most of the males. Not my type, but within standard (since we no longer have a height maxiumum of 26").

"Not my type" doesn't mean either bitch was unworthy within the breed as a whole.

That said, there are lots of political shenanigans no matter where you go, and add to that breed judging is subjective by nature...Two reasons I don't much enjoy the breed ring and only show to finish the dogs I need to finish. When a good friend of mine who has a very highly ranked US dog gets discouraged I tell her to kiss the breed ring goodbye for a while and enjoy doing something else with her dog in order to regain her perspective. This is a hobby. If it isn't fun, you do need to take a step back and re-evaluate what you're doing and why. Hopefully Stewart will take a break and come back with a vengance.

Stewart - real breeders, knowing the above, don't base their assessment of any dog solely or even in large part on what the dog accomplishes or not in the breed ring. They still use their own eyes and their own judgement. For heaven's sakes take a break if you must but don't rush out and do anything drastic to Zorro :wink:

The state of genetic diversity in this breed is frightening enough as it is!

Kristine

Mad Dog wrote:

I've only seen/heard of two undersized bitches to date from showlines; one went on to become an awesome performance dog with multiple CH normal-sized siblings, the other a pet, same deal with normal sized/CH siblings. Both I think were about 19-20" at the withers, clearly undersized.

Whatever bitch Stewart's talking about could conceivably be within standard. She may have looked small if the entry was full of tall dogs. In the US just recently a bitch had a big win and finding a best of opposite that didn't look ridiculous relative to her must have been a challenge because she apparently dwarfed most of the males. Not my type, but within standard (since we no longer have a height maxiumum of 26").

In europe the standard states a minimum height of 24" which is for a bitch an acceptable size (Misty is about 25 1/2") the bitch who won yesterday was at least 1 1/2" smaller than the required minimum and I have problems with this, we have breeders here who are proud of their small dogs and bitches and the are hurt when I suggest trying to breed a handle on thier back to carry them around, our breed originally herded sheep and some still do those dogs have to have stamina and small dogs annot cover the ground like a full sized OES and remember the gait is very important.

Mad Dog wrote:

"Not my type" doesn't mean either bitch was unworthy within the breed as a whole.

That said, there are lots of political shenanigans no matter where you go, and add to that breed judging is subjective by nature...Two reasons I don't much enjoy the breed ring and only show to finish the dogs I need to finish. When a good friend of mine who has a very highly ranked US dog gets discouraged I tell her to kiss the breed ring goodbye for a while and enjoy doing something else with her dog in order to regain her perspective. This is a hobby. If it isn't fun, you do need to take a step back and re-evaluate what you're doing and why. ./quote]

Stewart - real breeders, knowing the above, don't base their assessment of any dog solely or even in large part on what the dog accomplishes or not in the breed ring. They still use their own eyes and their own judgement. For heaven's sakes take a break if you must but don't rush out and do anything drastic to Zorro :wink:

The state of genetic diversity in this breed is frightening enough as it is!

Kristine

Mad Dog wrote:

Donner's Mom wrote:

Although, I have no experience in the show world it has really
bothered me to hear of Miniature OES and also Australian Shepherds.

I should hope not....I guess I was more referring to what people have told me that don't particularly know the breed.
:oops:

Sorry I'll try again

Mad Dog wrote:

The European standard says a minimum height of 24" which is an acceptable size for a bitch (Misty is about 25 1/2") at the moment we are seeing bitches which are from 1" to as much as 4" below this size. In my opinion no matter how good the dog is it is outwith the standard and at the most be awarded a "Very good". I know of a breeder who is proud that she breeds small sheepies and when I suggest trying to breed a handle on the back gets a little uptight.

We have to remember our breed originated as herding dog who travelled with drovers to the various markets throughout the UK, a smaller dog has more difficulty covering ground and therefore tires easily, we already have miniture poodles, dachshund and many other breeds the last thing we want to see is a miniture bobtail.

Mad Dog wrote:

"Not my type" doesn't mean either bitch was unworthy within the breed as a whole.

That said, there are lots of political shenanigans no matter where you go, and add to that breed judging is subjective by nature...Two reasons I don't much enjoy the breed ring and only show to finish the dogs I need to finish. When a good friend of mine who has a very highly ranked US dog gets discouraged I tell her to kiss the breed ring goodbye for a while and enjoy doing something else with her dog in order to regain her perspective. This is a hobby. If it isn't fun, you do need to take a step back and re-evaluate what you're doing and why.

Stewart - real breeders, knowing the above, don't base their assessment of any dog solely or even in large part on what the dog accomplishes or not in the breed ring. They still use their own eyes and their own judgement. For heaven's sakes take a break if you must but don't rush out and do anything drastic to Zorro :wink:

The state of genetic diversity in this breed is frightening enough as it is!
Kristine

Kristine I am not discouraged I am pi**ed off with this corruption and deceipt that is going on today, unfortunately very few breeders use their own eyes today in Europe they are afraid they might be talked about by the others if they do not use the in stud dog.

I do not know what you think I might do drastic to Zorro it has taken me a long time to get him where he is and I will keep on with him, I do not shave my dogs and he will be kept in full coat and be well looked after.

I will not leave the ring completely I will show occasionly just not any more in Germany as long as we have the situation as it is at the moment. We need good stud dogs in our breed as we are closing ourselves in with the small amout of stock available but we can't carry on with bad judges and judgement.

I think things will change as different dogs enter the ring also Stewart. You may want to do what Kristine suggested and do some obedience in Germany instead. That way you are still having fun with Zorro. I also think by "doing anything drastic", she meant neutering him.

Stewart this is the FCI Standard for OES I think it is what is used through out Europe. It does have a seperate minumum height for both dogs and bitches.

SIZE
Dogs 61 cm ( 24 inches) and upwards.
Bitches 56 cm ( 22 inches) and upwards.

Regardless there is always predjiduce in the breed when it comes to them being judged, like showing a small dog that is right on the minumum height standard and in proportion it is harder when other dogs tower over them especially in the Mature classes.

Same goes the opposite for Bitches, harder with a big bitch up against a smaller more petite one.

Brie is a big bitch, I found some weeks the judges like them that way and other times the more petite ones placed better.

Regardless each judge has there own thoughts as to what they prefer on the day, good or bad decision well that is there choice. That's why you pick and choose who you go under, if an unknown well you give them a try and make a decision wether you would go under them in the future or not. You just don't enter under them if you are unhappy with how they judge, they loose out in the long term for maybe not good judging of the breed. Again for every lousy judge there is good ones that know what they are doing. In the long term it balances out in the ring. :wink:

Judges education is probably needed more of on the breed especially with an all breeds judge that does not have the breed.

We have judges training nights here held through the OES Club, educating judges on the standard and dogs there, coated and clipped for the judges to learn about the breed with not only theory but hands on experience as well. We also set up a mini show for them on the night so they can see the dogs move around the ring and ask questions about the breed.

Corruption/politics happens world wide in the breed and not just exclusive to where you live, but for every bad experience good ones do shine through. :wink:

Also remember it is only one judges opinion, there not all the same. :wink:

dairymaid wrote:

Aren't you governed by FCI standards?

In which case:
SIZE :
Dogs 61 cm ( 24 inches) and upwards.
Bitches 56 cm ( 22 inches) and upwards.
Type and symmetry of greatest importance, and on no account to be sacrified to size alone.

So the bitch would be too small for a dog, but not too small for a bitch, if my math serves me? Or are we talking a different standard?

If you think she's less than 22" you can always suggest the judge take a stick to her. But honestly, next to a 25 1/2 " bitch (wow!) she's going to look small.

dairymaid wrote:

We have to remember our breed originated as herding dog who travelled with drovers to the various markets throughout the UK, a smaller dog has more difficulty covering ground and therefore tires easily,

Believe me, I remember. Probably more so than most :wink:

And I would argue the converse is true. A larger dog isn't going to have the stamina over distance that a smaller dog will have for the simple reason that they're lugging a lot more bulk and will tire more quickly. Nor, even with decent angulation, all else being equal, can they cut and turn with the speed and agility of the more compact, cobbier dog. I see these differences every day in my own dogs even in play.

Some have argued for the variance and creeping up in size by pointing out that different sized OES would have been better suited for different sized stock. But honestly, the two best herding dogs when it comes to, say, cattle, are corgis and cattle dogs. Small for different reasons and in different ways so they can get out of the way and not get kicked to kingdom come. A large OES is nothing but a big, bulky target that typically cannot get out of its own way. The other reason to justify the bigger dogs which would theoretically make more sense to me is to hold off large predators. But the last such predator in the British Isles would have been the wolf and weren't they eradicated long before the OES even became a breed? And the bigger the dog, the more to feed, from a farmer's point of view. The bigger sized dog would have to really, but really have a competitive advantage in some working way to justify the increased cost of keep to a farmer and I can't see that they had any.

The large OES are impresssive by sheer bulk in the show ring, but rarely desirable from a working point of view, which is probably the reason the original drover's dogs were 17-23" at the withers (per Mandeville) So if you're going to argue for greater size, you can't do so for working or health reasons. Now, if the breed standard you're judged by says 22" minimum then of course that should be the cut-off, but anything 22" and up is perfectly within standard and probably, all else being equal, closer to an actual working dog.

Keep in mind, the American standard used to have a 26" MAXIMUM. If I didn't do stuff with my dogs, I probably wouldn't mind a bigger OES. Just like there's nothing wrong with you preferring larger dogs and bitches. As long as it's within standard we can each comfortably have our preferences. But the fact is there's nothing in the breed's history to support the bigger is better theory and I think every breed standard I've ever read has said something to the effect that quality is not to be sacrificed for size, which I interpret to mean in any direction.

dairymaid wrote:

And here some of us are desperately afraid of breeding ourselves into a corner if we do :evil:

dairymaid wrote:

I do not know what you think I might do drastic to Zorro it has taken me a long time to get him where he is and I will keep on with him, I do not shave my dogs and he will be kept in full coat and be well looked after.

Oh, I know you'll continue to take wonderful care of him. I was just half joking about running out and doing something irreversible that involves removing certain male body parts :lol:

Kristine

I have nothing really helpful to offer, but I will share that the breeder we got Hudson from tried to convince us that the breed standard is AND BELOW instead of and above. He told us this in response to our questions about Hudson being so teeny. He tried to convince us that smaller sheepies are more desirable and that most people LIKE them smaller than the standard, and thus he claims he breeds smaller ones.

Personally, I suspect it was just said to get us off his backs. Our boy is teeny, but as long as he's healthy it's all fine with us as he's our pet and we were never planning to show him or anything. I just wanted to know that he wasn't small due to illness or simply not thriving.

But, since Hudson can't actually read what I'm typing, I'll be a little honest here. I'm sad he's not going to be a big (or average) sheepie. I really love big dogs, and that was what we were hoping for again. Of course we'll love him forever, no matter what...

Hahaha Mad dog (Kristine) must of posted at the same time the FCI Standard for height in OES.

This one is the English Standard too, same as the FCI

Size: Height- 24 inches (61 cm) and upwards for dogs; 22 inches (56 cm) and upwards for bitches. Type and symmetry of greatest importance, and no account to be sacrificed to size alone.

And this one from H.Tilleys Book on the original Breed standard in the UK which we have on our standard here in Australiasia

Height: Twenty-two inches and upwards for dogs, slightly less for bitches. Type, symmetry, and character of the greatest importance, and on no account to be sacrificed to size alone.

After staying Germany for 30 years I have lost the feeling for the conversion inches to cm and vice versa, of course you are correct Ladies please excuse my ignorance.

Reading some of the posts and I have received some phone calls yesterday regarding my decision there is something I still do not understand, maybe you can explain this to me: everyone admits we know this is going on and for every bad judgement there is a good one, does that mean 50% of the judgement is bad.

Why do we as honest show people and breeders accept this situation and continue to show as if it is not happening, it is commented upon we are closing ourselves in with the lack of good stock, well I suppose that is a start if we admit this but it is not enough, we have to let the show judges and committee's know we are no longer prepared to accept this situation.

Complacency is not the answer.

Have a look around at the shows today and most of the show people are 40+ most of them are in the breed for years, new show people come and go so quickly it is frightning and the main reason is they cannot understand why they cannot win with there OES and they see the same people winning all the time and no one gives them a reason for this or tells them what is wrong with their dog.

Yes the breed will be losing a good stud dog with Zorro but he is only one dog think about all the other ones we have lost over the years through this deceipt and corruption. I have seen so much over the last five years I could write a book and what astounds me the most is that people say to me think this over and take a short break, for what to start again and nothing has changed, NO I am not prepared to continue being a part of this circus and closing my eyes to what is going on.

Instead why do we not try to change things, we have a lobby and we should use it to put pressure on the kennel clubs to take more action regarding shows and corruption in the show world. We all enjoy this hobby in one way or the other and we enjoy going to shows so why do we not stop accepting the facts with the comment "its been going on for years" which is unfortunately true. Act now for dogs sake and for the sake of our beloved breed.

Kristine correct me when I have mis-understood that you only show when necessary, why because of the situation in the show world, is this the way we should continue ? We are against breeding outwith the clubs which is in my opinion correct but what are we doing different when we only show when necessary, one of the advantages of the shows is we can discuss our opinions with fellow breeders.

We all know this has been going on for years and we have accepted the fact, now with new illnesses creeping into our breed we are putting the blame on bad judging and at the same time prepared to accept this and continue as if nothing is happening, we breeders have a major role to play in our breed.

Kristine you comment that small dogs can work better, I disagree (again) then I agree they have increased in size over the years but so has the mankind it is the so called evolution and it will continue as long as we are on this planet. Each pup is different and some that are under the minimum height can happen but I do not believe it is in the interest of our breed to breed in this direction.

Recently we are seeing bitches having a litter with deaf pups, this is not yet a problem in Germany but when I see breeders using a pup out of shch a litter I get angry, then when we continue using these pups no matter how good they are we will have a problem in a few years and it will be like HD impossible to rot out.

If we continue looking away to what is happening and doing nothing about this situation I am convinced we will have miniture sheepies which are hard of hearing in a couple of years.

***Our breed as we know it is threatened from extinction***.

All breeds are threatened by extinction. The Animal Rights activists are trying to kill off purebred dogs and shows with their spay and neuter bills here in the US.
Maybe you need to be the one to start to rally the breeders and clubs together. It's easy for all of us to complain about the show world, a lot harder to rally the troops and change things...though not impossible.
Maybe a revolution is called for by all Kennel Clubs world round. Stop the unfair judging practices, unsportsman-like conduct...and the animal rights maniacs.

If these 3 things are done, it could be a fun sport for all once again.

wendy58 wrote:

Hear hear Wendy and I will vote for you to chair the board but unfortunately you will not get the show people for the cause most are prepared to accept this situation.

I would certainly try in Europe...if I could only live there and get living expenses. LOL.

I do think it needs to start somewhere...just like a revolution...with a small group of dissenters. I would nominate you Stewart...if only you didn't travel so much for work.

I do agree though, if it doesn't change in the near future...the sport will die for lack of new blood.

I have thought over my decision about stopping showing my OES for a couple of weeks now and after this period I am no longer prepared to rejoin this circus.

The result of this with the rules in Germany we will have to close down our kennel which we will do to the 31 October this year.

Thanks to all of you who sent your wishes and I will continue to post in the forum.

oh my!!
what will you do? can't you give yourself a longer period of adjustment - think about it longer?

Three months have now passed without a single show, to my surprise I have not missed the circus one little bit, in this period of time I have given a lot of thought to the situation and have come to the conclusion I have made the right decision, I will of course go and visit some shows but my decision is final I will not be showing any of my sheepies in the future unless we see a radical change in the judging at shows and believe me I will not live that long.

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