Info on breeder in Nor Cal, pup's lineage/prospects? Thx

Hiya...

So, I'm considering maybe getting a pup from a breeder that lives close enough to drive to, meet, and then wait until the pup's old enough and go fetch it. That way I can check it all out in person and make sure of things.

I have yet to speak with her... tomorrow. I'll be sure to ask all the questions.
Just wanted to get some feedback from the community here:

Please be clear if you're 'hazarding a guess,' something >seems either good /or/ bad, if you've heard something, or if you know something.
I've read quite a bit of the thread regarding the kennel the sire came from.

I think this may be the person's first sheepie litter, fyi.
And, yes, if I could I would go and pay 1500 for a totally first rate pup.
BUT that ain't gonna happen.
Yes, I've considered rescue and I spend OBSCENE amounts of time combing the net for sheepies that need homes.

So:

the breeder is located in Sonora, California

Info on the sire and dam:

Buster

AKC: DN18509908
Oak Ridge Acres

Babs

AKC: DN10214606
Spaeny Kennels

Nothing -at all- came up for spaeny.

And is there somewhere I can look up the pedigrees for free?

Cheers....

Respond to this topic here on forum.oes.org

Quote:

Buster

AKC: DN18509908
Oak Ridge Acres

Have you searched this forum for this kennel/breeder. If you haven't, I'd suggest you do so using "Search all terms/exact phrase" feature and the word "Oak Ridge."

Yuki is from Oak Ridge Acres. I love her. The breeder is a doll. Met her in person and everything. She is new to breeding, I was inexperienced, and I'm not sure there is much of a science to her breeding. I believe she just started getting some testing done before breeding, but none of her dogs are show quality or come from great lines. I think it's easier to direct you to the thread on here by doing a search than continuing myself.

This is what I tell everyone, and where I'll end:
My husband would get all of our dogs from oak ridge acres.
I could not get another dog there.

Please read the threads under the 'GETTING A PUPPY' section on the forum....I think it will help you make an informed decision and help you with the questions you need to ask.

I know 1500 is alot of money, but the old saying you get what you pay for is very true.

Case in point...I purchased a Beardie from a BYB...couldn't leave him in the situation, he was not being cared for. I paid alot less than what the going rate is and for the past 5 years, I have been spending about $60 a month on meds due to the fact that he has fear issues that stem from bad breeding and no socialization when he was a puppy.

Please use this forum, ask questions,read the threads and know your subject ----as a consumer, you need to be aware !!!

Good Luck!!

You can and should look any prospective breeder's dogs up on the OFA site via their AKC registration numbers. www.offa.org

In fact, I just did, and neither sire or dam (or any dogs with those kennel prefixes for that matter) are listed as having had their hips x-rayed and the x-rays submitted for evaluation to make sure they are clear of canine hip dysplasia. Nor has there been any submission of their eyes having been cleared of hereditary defects (a CERF exam) These are the bare minimum of health checks in this breed.

What you need to ask a prospective breeder:

1) have the parents hips been x-rayed and evaluated by a radiologist (not all submit to OFA for whatever reason, but a simple x-ray and commentary from their regular vet is not sufficient, though perhaps better than nothing)

Hip dysplasia is a common problem in the breed.

2) have the parents both been checked by a canine opthamologist? (a CERF exam - again, not all submit the results to the OFA, but you get paperwork on the exam that states the results of the evaluation)

3) has the thyroid functioning level been checked and found to be normal in both sire and dam? Hypothyroidism is a huge problem in the breed.

4) Have both parents' had their hearing checked by performing a BAER test?

Deafness is a big problem in the breed as well.

If yes, you need to see documentation to this effect on all counts.

Also ask about allergies in the line and look closely at whatever related dogs are available to you (the adults, not the puppies) to check for evidence of allergies. This can be a nightmare to live with - you don't want that.

The following are the health issues in the breed that there are screening tests for and that any breeder, show breeder or not, should be following as guidelines to better their chances of producing healthy dogs:

http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD

If a breeder hasn't done a bare minimum of health testing, why would you want a puppy from them? You can do better. Keep looking, be smart and keep asking questions. Don't even look at the puppies if you can't see health screening documentation up front or you'll get suckered in by puppy breath :lol:

These screenings are not trivial. You may not care what the dog looks like, and that's fine, but healthy and a good temperament are a must, right?

Also see www.oeshealth.org for health information related to OES so you know what kind of questions to ask. Good luck!

Kristine

Wait a minute, it appears the web site has changed but wasn't Oak Ridge kennels the one who had the lovely "brindle" sheepdogs? I know we have another post specifically on Oak Ridge. I'll try to find it...

Ah ha!

http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=20 ... sc&start=0

I don't remember anything about brindle sheepdogs and oak ridge acres, but I didn't re-read through that long thread. She was most known [on here] for letting one of her puppies go a bit early because a couple had traveled a long way, and it resulting in the dogs becoming sick ...or did they die? I forgot.

I found that when I asked around about breeders but was anxious to get a dog, I was more looking for someone to approve of a breeder that may have not been the best but "good enough." It was more about getting the dog that fit our time schedule.

Of course I wanted a good breeder. In my eyes, I did a LOT of research but that research was more on the breed not how to find a good breeder. Not to mention sites that told you how to, told you what not to look for, not specifically what to look for. The sites people post "now" which specify which tests, etc... are rare when I do a puppy search. You're more likely to run into byb websites on how to find a good breed

Anyway, my point in all that is I find most people are going to do what they want to do. You can end up like us, regretting our purchase ...hitting our heads because of all that we have learned to be "right" ...or you can save up just a little more and find a reputable breeder. Seriously, what's another 200 or 500 when it comes to an expensive purchase that will last you forever. 200 is easily just a vet visit, and you'll have 10X more if you've got a dog from a bad genetic line. I've never bought a car and battled between the car that was 20,000 and 20,500 ...or even 21,000. It's all about being happy with what you purchased and might as well get something with quality rather than something that will always have you in the shop.

Joahaeyo wrote:

You can end up like us, regretting our purchase ...hitting our heads because of all that we have learned to be "right"

Jo, has Yuki had a lot of health problems? I suppose I should know this, but when I think of Yuki I just picture all of the beautiful pictures with Lil J and Joshee.

Quote:

Not sure this was the same kennel but there was a pup named Gus...
http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=11622

No.

I mean, she has allergies, but I don't think that's bad. Or is it? Seems like dogs from all over the spectrum have them? She's a very healthy dog ....for an almost 4 yo. Very well socialized, super sweet, and not an aggressive bone in her body.

I think it's VERY clear she will have joint problems. She's on missing link, gets good food etc, ...but you can just tell by the sounds her joints make that she's going to have issues. She's too tall.

Outside of that, the only other thing that stands out about her is her unusual behavioral problem (anxiety). She has an obsession of eating her butt. Not allergy related. When she's nervous, excited, in need, anything....... she has to eat the insides out. I'm describing "too much," but it's a lot more disgusting in person if you can imagine.

6Girls wrote:

Quote:

Not sure this was the same kennel but there was a pup named Gus...
http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=11622

that is what I was referring to...
I don't think that person said she had a brindle dog unless I misread.

Quote:

She has an obsession of eating her butt.

Sometime you might try this... Panda did the same thing.

Oops! Correction-

* Make sure her anal glands are expressed regularly (sometimes meaning every 2 weeks!)... this can cause licking lower down.
* Ask your vet about using Panalog for a week or so.
* Keep the fur shorter there.
* When you finish with the Panalog, powder her poosie (:lol:) every morning with Caldesene powder. It's a baby/adult powder used to prevent irritation.

Joahaeyo wrote:

6Girls wrote:

Quote:

Not sure this was the same kennel but there was a pup named Gus...
http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=11622

that is what I was referring to...
I don't think that person said she had a brindle dog unless I misread.

I knew there was some issue but I couldn't remember what. I do not believe these were the brindle people. These were just the ones with the sick puppies that were sent out pretty early.

There is one thing you can find out for yourself and that is the hip ratings on-
Buster
AKC: DN18509908
Oak Ridge Acres

Ask the breeder for Buster's FULL AKC registered name. Then go to the OFA website and search for hip ratings-
http://offa.org/search.html?action=new

The Oak Ridge Acres website has said "preliminary" on the hips for a number of months... they must have the results by now.
http://www.oakridgeacres.com/oes.html

This won't tell you the sire's hip condition but it will tell you his sire/dam ratings. While hip ratings alone will not tell you the full health heritage, it's a start.

I just gave the vet a check for $1,800 to dermal/blood test three of my girls for allergies (thankfully 2 have insurance). This will not include allergy serum for shots that may last a lifetime. EVERYONE buying a puppy should verify that the breeding adults do NOT have any allergy issues. I honestly think allergies are a serious problem in some Old English Sheepdog lines...

6Girls wrote:

Yes and no - I think allergies can be hereditary but some can be environmental. Face it not only have we driven the economy into the ground but we have made some very poor environmental choices and the inside of some homes due to cleaning chemicals etc are the worse areas to be for those that are the least bit sensitive. I see dogs all around with food allergy issues of all breeds and mixes. It may be more of a canary in the mine issue than poor breeding at this point.

Quote:

Yes and no - I think allergies can be hereditary but some can be environmental.

Many allergies are environmental or inhalant... pollens, dust mites, molds... but some dogs don't react to these things. So is there a hereditary component that makes some dogs respond with an allergic reaction while others don't?

Wondering if human and dog allergies are pretty similar...

Quote:

Although allergies can develop at any age, the risk of developing allergies is genetic. It is related to ones family history of allergy. If neither parent is allergic, the chance for allergies is about 15%. If one parent is allergic, the risk increases to 30% and if both are allergic, the risk is greater than 60%. http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art ... lekey=2201

^^^
Perhaps but as the environment wears down our resistance I think it may cross a line. some studies are being done on environmental allergies and the increase in autism etc as well - science is after all all theory, even what we call facts - except maybe for physics.

I'll have to ask the vet about Panalog! Thanks for the suggestion.

The vets have always suggested anal glands but no matter how many times they look, they are nice and empty. I always trim real close "there" too. :lol:

She just has issues. If I play ball with the other dog, she freaks and goes for her butt. Weirdo.

Are these the pups you're looking at? There's not much info on the dogs. I'd wonder if they've been tested for the things mentioned above. :/

http://www.familycloset.com/pups/pups.html

Y'all rock...

as I >>knew you would.

I agree with the cautions and advice, but I just need to be honest here:
11 year ago and some months I got Vladimir from a small scale
(not pro tour really)breeder. I knew it was bad of me, and I felt nervous about it, but I knew that the parents hadn't been hip and eye certified.
I was told there were no issues with their hips nor with any of the pups from previous litters. At that point, I had wanted one wholeheartedly for 15 years (since 8 yrs of age) and I got him for myself for my 23 birthday. I got to see video of him and his siblings interacting outside with another nanny dog, the owner, and their environment. That was the key for me: I had a clear idea of how independent, engaged, curious, and outgoing the pup would have to be to mesh well with my own temperament and inclinations. I believe I paid about 5-800 for him.

The moral of the story is:
1. I got d@m# lucky. Healthy as a horse til the last month and a half.
2. We were meant to be together.
3. He was gorgeous and he always got tons of exercise, vitamins, great quality food, time in the country and fresh air. Being loved matters.

So, I do think you get what you pay for.
At the same time, I think some folks just don't know how to go about it exactly the right way.

All things considered, Yuki's joints creaking or making ominous noises worries me... it's hard to carry a lumpy 80 lb dog.
I'm checking the links and threads and I'll be back for more.

Thanks again!

P.S. The oak ridge thread talked a lot about pups having worms (yes, that one pup died =(, fleas, and a couple of ticks (on acreage you may count on that one). I would love to see more of the oak ridge dogs, if anyone has one and can point me towards photos, I'd appreciate it. Has anyone ever even heard of Spaeny? Google doesn't even know her kennel!

It's the first thing that comes up if you search Old English Sheepdog and Oak Ridge.

And that's why I'm doing my due diligence now.
As someone noted, once there's puppy breath, I'm doomed.

Also, I wonder if y'all could tell me how much you can tell about how a pup will turn out judging from its looks so young. Though I think I have a good eye for it; lots of pups I see, I'm thinking "what in the heck is wrong with it?"

Can anybody here tell?
They do show the adults. Sometimes a janky haircut can do bad things to an oesie.

they should be boxy looking even as puppies. I never know what I am looking at - but put two next to each other and its easy to pick out the good looking one. If they look odd to you - perhaps they are.

if they are showing you can check show results to see how they are doing - anyone can show as long as the dog is registered its the reult of showing that matters.

VelcroVoodoo wrote:

Oh, so the mom and dad are show dogs or one of their other dogs?

A red flag (not always but most often) is the fact they breed other dogs completely on the other end of the spectrum (mini dachshunds).

is what i meant to write.
excuse the mixed info.
i don' t think so, but i'll be sure to ask.

VelcroVoodoo wrote:

They do show the adults. Sometimes a janky haircut can do bad things to an oesie.

Have any of them actually been finished to championship, though? I don't see anything on the site that even alludes that they've been shown.

One thing I noticed in the gallery-- whoever is cropping them is doing a TERRIBLE job. The puppy on the bottom right of the gallery looks like they left about 3 vertebrae on.

http://www.oakridgeacres.com/photos.html

the website is actually nice and another reason for good breeders to put up decent websites. I am really drawn in by the huge happy family pictures - told you all I was having an odd day.

Just so there's no confusion when others read this thread ...I believe oakridge is just where one of the dogs came from. Familycloset.com is the "breeder" site for this litter, so they could have completely different practices which is either good ...or bad.

FWIW, I emailed the breeder of the litter in question. She is not showing, and they are not hip, ear, or thyroid certified. She is a hobby breeder from the sound of it who has 10 helpful kids that love the breed (very similar background it seems as the breeder of oakridge), so if you are okay with that which I think going into this ...you kinda knew she was then go for it. If you're asking if we would get a dog from them (going back to the original post), I'm positive the answer would be no. It's hard to after being on this board for so long.

6Girls wrote:

Quote:

Yes and no - I think allergies can be hereditary but some can be environmental.

Let me clear one thing up here. INHALANT allergies are genetically tranmitted. That means 1 or both parents have to have either 1 dominant or 2 recessive genes. If any dog exhibits signs of inhalant allergies & is tested for them & tests positive, they should not be used in breeding ever as there is a high % that they will pass this on to some or all of their puppies. I have been there. It is hearbreaking. Believe me, inhalant allergies are not treated as easily in dogs as humans. It is very expensive to nail down exactly what they are allergic to. Then you are looking at weekly injections in increasing dosages until you get the dog to a level where they can resist the allergens. After that the dog is on a maintainance dose of the injection for the rest of it's life. If you can't give the injections yourself, it will mean weekely trips to your vet. And you need to go to an allergy/dermatology specialist to get this to the point where the dog is comfortable. A regular vet does not have the specialization to determine what they are allergic to & what treatment is needed.

ChSheepdogs wrote:

6Girls wrote:

Quote:

Yes and no - I think allergies can be hereditary but some can be environmental.

so what about food allergies?

Just wanted to add some info here:

Molly Gaffney, of Oak Ridge Acres is not a member of the Old English Sheepdog Club of America, even though her post from a couple of years ago said she was in the process of joining. The OESCA polices their own members, so it's usually a plus for an OES breeder to be a member.

The 'pending' OFA clearances is a good marketing ploy... :roll:

The OFA vet hands the paperwork right to the dog owner, and then they submit the info. It usually takes only 2-3 weeks for the info to be posted.

Jo - I know a lot of dog fanciers/breeders that own and breed more than 1 breed of dog. I wouldn't let this throw up red flags for you. I would be more concerned if they had several types of dogs, and were cranking out puppies every chance they could...

kerry wrote:

so what about food allergies?

According to the allergy/dermatology specialist I used, food allergies are NOT necessarily genetic. Any dog can develop food allergies at anytime of their life. It doesn't have to have to be in their background. This information came from Dr. Alice Jeromin.

ChSheepdogs wrote:

kerry wrote:

so what about food allergies?

thanks marilyn

VelcroVoodoo wrote:

So, I'm considering maybe getting a pup from a breeder that lives close enough to drive to, meet, and then wait until the pup's old enough and go fetch it. That way I can check it all out in person and make sure of things.

I think this may be the person's first sheepie litter, fyi.
And, yes, if I could I would go and pay 1500 for a totally first rate pup.
BUT that ain't gonna happen.

So:

the breeder is located in Sonora, California

Info on the sire and dam:

Buster

AKC: DN18509908
Oak Ridge Acres

Babs

AKC: DN10214606
Spaeny Kennels

Nothing -at all- came up for spaeny.

And is there somewhere I can look up the pedigrees for free?

Cheers....

VV,

As it turns out I spend a great deal of time in the Sonora area. More than a decade ago I met a woman there and got to hold some of her OES pups. She has been showing for a decade plus. In that time she has bred two litters of pups and is contemplating a new litter next year. My point is that she knows Sheepies. If you would like, I can ask her what she knows about this breeder or perhaps she could take a look for you, before you make that two hour drive.

I do have an additional suggestion about finding a quality, healthy sheepie. I think if I were in your position, I might contact all the breeders listed on the OESCA site. Tell them your story so they understand what a good home your sheepie will have and then ask if they have a dog available. Often, some of these people will hold a couple/few pups and then make the determination that some are not show quality and look to place them. That way you get a great quality pup, whose only flaw maybe crooked teeth or some other minor thing that will not make it the ideal show dog but that you will never notice. Also, some of them have retired Champions who would benefit from an only dog household. Fundamentally, all these folks love the breed and while they love their dogs, they also would like to know that their dogs will have the best lives possible.

Your situation is one of those ideal homes where the dog will have a great life full of love and adventures. And don't forget to sell the fact that SF's weather is very similar to England's! IOW, sheepie heaven.

Please let me know if you would like me to ask my friend to check on this litter. Puppies are fun, there is no question about it. However, I think having a well-balanced, happy and healthy dog is pretty awesome. So, you may want to chat with OESCA breeders in CA and see if they have any dogs that might be a suitable match.

The fact of the matter is that breeding is a DNA crap shoot. People who have decades of experience with the breed and take every possible precaution still have puppies with hearing loss, etc. So, while I think Rainbow's End is a fabulous thing, I am guessing they lack the knowledge to know what the potential pitfalls in breeding can be.

My opinion aside, let me know if I can help. Additionally, if you happen to locate a pup/dog in SoCal, please let me know. I will be driving to SF/Sonora in mid-November and would be happy to transport for you.
~n

Wow, that is just fabulous advice.
I will totally follow through in the next few days.
Of course now that you say so, it all makes perfect sense, I just get to so insecure looking at prices that are phenomenally out of reach...
If you would check on the Sonora litter, that would be brilliant.
A lot of my interest in this particular person is being able to see them interact in person, as I have a very clear idea of what the pup's personality ought to be; not too clingy, but interested. Lively, no shrinking violet, but not a spazz. Self-motivated, curious, independent, but willing to be redirected and responsive to attention.

These things are of way more interest than having a 3 month panda puppy. It's to the point of being obnoxious as I recall; a 2 block walk can take half an hour what with everybody dropping to their knees to coo at it. Cute overkill. As long as it's been socialized okay, I'm fine with 5/6 months even a full adult. It's a relationship, albeit with the cutest animal that one can ruckus with properly. Major bonus if I don't have to rip my hair out wondering when the housebreaking will finally be understood (and I can stop mopping the house...grr =).

And I have spoken with the breeder, she's unsure about quite a few of the basics, though she loves her dogs to bits and wants people to be able to get reasonably priced pups. I got tons of info from her on the parents and who they came from and she was super helpful and understanding. She sounds like she's fully on the up and up (intent wise, I know there's more at stake than that, but I like to save my bile for the wicked, y'know..)

Anyways,

I'll start contacting people asap and thank you so so so much QuailTrail.
(and to all of y'all for contributing to my question... always learning more!)

Off to bed.
(I'm dreaming of a new pup(py)...

=)

Vlad4Ever

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