New Puppy
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| How old is the puppy when it came to you? According to law and ethics of most countries no Puppy to go off to a new home till a minumum of 8 weeks of age. That is for there benefit so they are well socialised and been able to socialise with mom and the litter siblings and also have the first lot of Vaccinations and for them to take affect before they leave the nest.
Now let's talk about the docking, legally docking is preformed within 3-5 days of birth. The fact your new puppy has come to you with stiches in and you are having problems suggest this baby was an illegal late docking. So healing time is going to be a lengthy process as it is not a docking but an Amputation. Don't want to be awfull but sounds like your new puppy came from elsewehere other then a reputable, caring breeder. A reputable breeder would not of sent a recently docked puppy to a new home with stiches in. It definately sounds like it was an after thought and an amputation rather then a legimate docking. How old is your Puppy when it arrived at your home? Please be carefull with what is happening at the moment, the fact is that this baby because of the presumed late docking (amputation) is easily open to infection and all sorts of problems with the healing process, personally I would see a vet for advice as to how this amputation is progressing and healing if it is at all. I would also go after the breeder of the pup who sent it to you for any vet re-imbursement if it does lead to ongoing problems. If they are a registered breeder then report them to the necessary affiliations they are registered with. Just not right what they have done.  |
| PLEASE take your pup to a licensed vet to have it checked out THIS MORNING.
He needs to be on pain medication and probably an antibiotic. That a vet would do this to a puppy seems unethical and not in the best interest of a puppy. But the important thing now is to make sure your puppy is kept comfortable and that infection doesn't take hold. I think about the other puppies left suffering with this breeder... only you can speak for those now suffering silently in his/her care... |
| The docking should've happened at only a few days old, definitely not a few days before you got him. Something hinky is going on here. Get to the vet fast! |
| Hi again. Thank you all for responding. I took Bob to the vet. She checked him out thouroughly. His tail was infected so she gave him an antibiotic and also some pain killers. He should be fine in a few days. She also metioned that some breeders will wait to bob tail until four to five months so that was o.k., just a little more bothersome.
Again, thank you for you help and we are looking forward to enjoying Bob for years to come.[img] |
| im glad that you took him to a vet...poor bob....
i am not the most informed person on the board, but i do know that a reputable breeder of ANY breed does NOT dock at that late of an age... lisa is right, at that point, you are looking at an amputation, not a docking take care of your new puppy. |
| Hamunz;
I'm glad you found the OES.org board! The folks here are really well informed, and have been a great help to me with my new puppies (now almost a year old each). I'm glad you went straight to the vet and got Bob on the right treatment for his late-docked (amputated) tail. I'm so sorry he (and you) had to experience this. Hopefully you'll have no more surprises, and it'll be smooth sailing from here! Congrats on your new puppy! |
hamunz wrote: Hi again. Thank you all for responding. I took Bob to the vet. She checked him out thouroughly. His tail was infected so she gave him an antibiotic and also some pain killers. He should be fine in a few days. She also metioned that some breeders will wait to bob tail until four to five months so that was o.k., just a little more bothersome.
Again, thank you for you help and we are looking forward to enjoying Bob for years to come.[img] It is ABSOLUTELY not okay for any breeder to wait a few months to dock the tails. NO EXCEPTIONS! Anything after a few days old is now an amputation, not a docking. A breeder that would do that to their dogs has some serious problems and should be reported to the ASPCA. If your vet thinks this practice is okay, I would also highly recommend finding another vet. Most vets would freak out at hearing someone was going around chopping fully formed tails off of dogs. I'm sorry to come off so strongly but that type of thing is unacceptable. If someone doesn't know about proper docking practices, they shouldn't be breeding in the first place. I feel really sorry for your dog and all the dogs that this breeder pumps out. |
| While whats been done to this puppy unacceptable; its hardly Hamunz's fault. I agree with what everyone is saying; this is animal cruelty for it to have been done so late in this puppy's life. But lets not be harsh to Hamunz, who is only trying to do the right thing and has come to us for help and direction.
We are all of us very passionate about this breed, and animals in general. But lets not be so passionate as to take out our anger and outrage at this act on someone that is innocent of any participation in it. Hamunz has said this is his/her first OES; how was he/she to know that docking this late was illegal and hurtful to his/her pup? But having learned this, Hamunz did the right thing and got the puppy to the vet right away. And now Hamunz knows for the future that this isn't a normal or acceptable thing. Since its impossible to own just one OES, its good that Hamunz knows, and can act accordingly going forward! ( and it really is impossible to share your life with just one; consider yourself warned!!  ) |
| Thank you for easing this puppy's pain.
I'm concerned about the attitude here... not yours but that of the vet and breeder. Could this vet be the same one that did the procedure? Consider calling Jessie Miller at the El Paso Humane Society (915) 532-6971 She knows about the laws for your state... I imagine you can do this anonymously. The person I spoke with at the Humane Society indicated it would be VERY painful to dock tails in an older puppy and that it didn't seem right... |
| Wow, thanks so much for your support. I was actually feeling badly, as if we had done something wrong to the puppy. As mentioned in our profile, we have had many Scotties, by the way, great dogs also but were ready for a new type. My wife, thirty two years ago mentioned she would love to have an OES and I remembered. When we saw the add in the paper we raced to pick it up. Really a neat dog and very, very calm compared to what we had been used to. Have been without a dog for a few years and felt we were ready again.
By the way, tried adding pictures but could not download them onto my photos. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks again for the support. |
| No, no, I'm not laying any blame on him. He didn't know and he just wants his puppy to feel better. I meant I felt sorry for the puppy because he had to go through that, not that his owner was putting him through anything else.
Ultimately though, it is an unacceptable situation with the breeder and he or she should be reported for cruelty. As Jaci said, the vet's attitude is even more concerning. The blame lies with the people that "should" know better. |
| me too...i meant no disrespect to hamunz...he didnt know....but the breeder and surely the vet should know!
welcome to hamunz, btw..  |
| i agree; I'm surprised at the Vet for saying this. Could it be ignorance? Is there any other breed with this sort of thing would be acceptable later in a puppy's life? Don't some dogs get their ears trimmed with they are at the 4 - 5 month range? Maybe the vet was thinking along those lines...?
Regardless; perhaps looking for a new vet wouldn't be a bad idea. I had a hard time with my vet at first too, and ended up doing a pretty thorough search before I found one that was familiar with our breed. I've been really happy ever since. |
Quote: By the way, tried adding pictures but could not download them onto my photos. Any help will be appreciated.
Here is info on how to post pictures of your new baby... we're all anxious to see Bob
http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=1119 |
| Hi again. Just to clarify, my vet was great, treated Bob and wants to see him again in a few days to make sure all is o.k. Problem with other vet, I have no clue who he is and now that we have had our vet treat Bob, he is in good hands. The pain killers seem to have taken effect, he is sitting next to me at this moment chewing on his chew bone. Again, thanks to all. You have been very helpful and am really thankful for your comments. Am in the process of getting some photos approved and hope to show Bob off soon. |
| Hi Hamunz so glad you took your new lil man to the vet. Just be diligent with him now as this type of procedure that was done to him can have ongoing problems so keep a close eye that it is healing well, he is not trying to lick the area (if he tries too then he might have to have an e-collar till it heals) and that he does not bump it till it is well and truly healed and even though he is on anti-biotics it might take extra courses till the area is fully healed. So any worries or if it looks weepy at all then straight back to the vets. Same if it does not look to be healing off to the vets for help.
You brought the puppy from an ad? This tells me that they are not registered breeders of OES. They should really be reported for this type of practice they are doing as it is just cruelty and needs to be stopped. Best wishes with Bob and look forward to seeing and hearing about your new lil man. Also hope he came with a history of Vaccinations/heart worm and worming so he is up to date and stays healthy. If any doubts there then again speak to the vet if you have no health records from where you purchased him from.
Wishing you many years of Sheepie happiness with your boy. |
| At the very least, please call the breeder and tell him/her that your puppy has an infection... that he's now on meds to control pain and treat infection. Other puppies may be suffering tonight as we discuss this. |
6Girls wrote: At the very least, please call the breeder and tell him/her that your puppy has an infection... that he's now on meds to control pain and treat infection. Other puppies may be suffering tonight as we discuss this.
I doubt the breeder will care. When shortly after bringing my two home, we determined that they each had severe UTIs, I tried to inform the breeder, who never replied to my emails or calls after that. I think the best thing that Hamunz can do is report it to the AKC and then focus on making sure Bob is as healthy and happy as a Sheepie can be! Or, if the ad was on something like Puppyfind,com, negative feedback can be left for the breeder. Thats what I did for mine; even though that wasn't where I found my girls. |
| Not to ruffle any feathers here, but it is legal in the US to dock dogs at any age.
I do question why the breeder docked the puppy so late, and maybe it is up to you to ask her/him. Maybe it was their first litter, and they were completely ignorant, and perhaps the financial prospect was fleeting if the dogs were tailed?  Perhaps the puppy was imported from a country that doesn't dock and the breeder decided not to keep him for themselves? I would really like to know what their answer is. 
I would also hope that your vet would educate these ignorant breeders of when the best time is to dock a puppy's tail.
Hope that Bob's bobbed-tail, heals quickly!!  |
VerveUp wrote: Hope that Bob's bobbed-tail, heals quickly!! you know; when you type it like that? What a great name for this particular Sheepdog! |
VerveUp wrote: Not to ruffle any feathers here, but it is legal in the US to dock dogs at any age.
That's true, but it's not exactly ethical. |
VerveUp wrote: Not to ruffle any feathers here, but it is legal in the US to dock dogs at any age.
Regardless of the legality of it just the fact this pup was sent to a new home with the stiches in. If not for hamunz post of what is happening with the constant bumping the area and it bleeding after a week of the procedure being done to this lil man, poor baby whimpering and now it is infected the puppy should not of gone to a new home till all was well with it. So if it did come from someone that is registered or associated with the OESCA then THEY SHOULD BE REPORTED!!! I am just glad that the infection is being treated as well as pain management for the lil fella, as leaving it, not noticing anything would of been possible death for this baby if Hamunz did not question what is happening with their new pupper, KUDOS to you Hamunz and still say what the breeder or previous owner did to this pup is SO WRONG, UNETHICAL and DISGUSTING and should be reported for letting the pup go to another home in this condition. If a legal late docking (Amputation) possibly after maybe being a failed prospect for breeding or showing, regardless this is done just on a week ago and if only viable as a companion (Pet) dog then they should of left the tail on as to not cause any pain for this puppy and problems for this new family who have taken on this puppy or the previous owner should of kept the pup then sold it after all was well with it. I still say what a dam cruel thing to do to a youngster at that age. Hoping and keeping fingers crossed that Bob will heal well and their is no ongoing drama with what this poor baby has been through so far. BIG ray of sunshine is, he is now in a wonderfull home. Thank goodness for that. |
lisaoes wrote: So if it did come from someone that is registered or associated with the OESCA then THEY SHOULD BE REPORTED!!!
I'm going to guess that it was NOT an OESCA member... I do hope that Hamunz gets some answers from the breeder as to why such a late docking... Just for the record, I don't agree with late dockings, just wanted to add that it is legal, therefore, there is recourse as far as pressing charges, especially if it was done by a licensed veterinarian. |
Bob is adorable...but I have never seen one with so much white. It may explain why his tail was amputated instead of docked at 3-5 days of age.
I am glad you are a great owner since the poor guy had such an unethical breeder. Keep us posted on the healing...sheepie hugs to you both. |
wow! I don't know if I've ever seen a sheepie with so much white on him! How lovely looking! I don't envy you the washing up, however....  |
| As Verveup said, it is legal. In addition to it being done on imported show puppies (personally I'd rather not import if that was my only recourse, but I do understand why it's done), I know two OES owning vets who have done so on their own dogs - one with a rescue who habitually banged her tail bloody to the point where it would never heal, one was a redo of a poor docking job on a show puppy. Both cases surprised me. But I know both of them and they are not cruel, unethical people. To the contrary.
Perhaps they didn't have the same issues with this procedure as us lay people because they are accostomed to having to amputate injured tails on dogs who were not docked for whatever reason, though more typically sporting dogs. Come to think of it, my cat was partially "docked" many years ago, just a couple inches, due to a freak injury. It bothered me a lot at first, but hasn't affected him. Why someone would do that to a pet puppy for non-medical reasons is beyond me. Perhaps the finanical incentive - undocked OES are presumed to be mixes in the US. But are you sure this was a late docking and not a repair to the stub for some reason? Was it the entire litter? Either way, Lisa is correct and the core issue is the puppy should never been let go until he was fully healed, but done is done and happy he's being treated for his infection. BTW there has been at least one almost white OES CH - it is perfectly acceptable. Not common, though, and probably for the best that it is not, and not just for washing reasons, though there is that
Cute puppy! Hope he feels better soon. Kristine |
| I don't think anyone here would question having a tail amputation done for medical reasons. Why purposely cause bad pain on an older pup or dog just for aesthetic reasons? It seems very selfish. (I asked if my first OESs could keep their tails.) But I guess man does a lot to manipulate breeds for these reasons.
Bob is beautiful. One final comment... since he came from a breeder that failed to dock in the most humane time frame, they may have also failed to check hearing. Deafness is found in this breed. I'm not saying he is or isn't... it's just my first thought when seeing so much white and you want to be able to communicate with him from the very beginning. |
| wow bob is a cutie he reminds me of my derby all white but had a tail good luck with him |
OH, Bob is adorable. What a sheepie face. 
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| He is so cute......
I hope his nubbie heals! Good for you to get him to the vet! I have to agree, working for a vet for many years after 5 days old should be for a medical reason! My vet always says 3 days! Good Luck with that awesome little man! |
| Are there any ethical breeders in the U.S. that produce OES puppies with tails? My opinion, but I do believe the U.S. OES breed standard should be changed to make tail docking optional. Almost no one uses these dogs for herding sheep anymore, and pets are not taxed because of tails, so the historical reason for docking tails is no longer valid. Tails are gorgeous, and most dogs have them except OES. |
Cadenza wrote: Are there any ethical breeders in the U.S. that produce OES puppies with tails? My opinion, but I do believe the U.S. OES breed standard should be changed to make tail docking optional. Almost no one uses these dogs for herding sheep anymore, and pets are not taxed because of tails, so the historical reason for docking tails is no longer valid. Tails are gorgeous, and most dogs have them except OES.
way to ask a question
You could rephrase it to are there any politically correct breeders in the US - sorry. How about - in your opinion tails are georgeous and there is no reason for docking them. I can't help myself its my logic background |
Poor baby  I'm glad he's in good hands now, and welcome to our forum
While that much white is acceptable in the breed it is rare, and for good reason. Most ethical and educated breeders do not breed with the intent of producing that much white and avoid it if possible as it is linked to hereditary deafness. Unfortunately with this puppy's poor beginnings there may be a very good chance you'll be dealing with several health issues. I hope not for your sake and his, but in my opinion his breeder is ignorant or simply doesn't care about the dogs.... |
kerry wrote: You could rephrase it to are there any politically correct breeders in the US - sorry. Huh? What does politics have to do with this? Are you saying that docking tails is politically incorrect? I'm for beautiful animals and the integrity of choice, that's all. The questions remains, anyone produce healthy OES with tails in the U.S., or do we really have to import them from Europe? |
| I tried to make it clear I was poking a bit of fun - but yes anti docking, early spay and neuter etc etc are all politically correct (not meaning right but just in fashion) stances. None of them are based on scientific facts.
and really I was only having a little early morning fun. |
Cadenza wrote: kerry wrote: You could rephrase it to are there any politically correct breeders in the US - sorry. Huh? What does politics have to do with this? Are you saying that docking tails is politically incorrect? I'm for beautiful animals and the integrity of choice, that's all. The questions remains, anyone produce healthy OES with tails in the U.S., or do we really have to import them from Europe? I think what Kerry was going for was that by asking if there were any "ethical breeders" that offer un-docked tails, it could have been implied that anyone that doesn't dock is un-ethical. When I think what you were asking was "is there anyone that is an OESCA member, with highly regarded breeding standards, and someone that isn't some back-yard breeder, that will allow you to request a tailed OES." I heard what you were saying... but it's also almost noon here and I've had 2 cups of coffee already. Kerry wasn't being critical; like she said it was humor-intended and a bit early.... |
Cadenza wrote: kerry wrote: You could rephrase it to are there any politically correct breeders in the US - sorry. Huh? What does politics have to do with this? Are you saying that docking tails is politically incorrect? I'm for beautiful animals and the integrity of choice, that's all. The questions remains, anyone produce healthy OES with tails in the U.S., or do we really have to import them from Europe? I'll answer. No, absolutely not. |
kerry wrote: I tried to make it clear I was poking a bit of fun - but yes anti docking, early spay and neuter etc etc are all politically correct (not meaning right but just in fashion) stances. None of them are based on scientific facts.
and really I was only having a little early morning fun. No prob, kerry! Thanks for the reply. |
ButtersStotch wrote: Cadenza wrote: The questions remains, anyone produce healthy OES with tails in the U.S., or do we really have to import them from Europe? I'll answer. No, absolutely not. My, what a great opportunity, then! When I have the time to become a backyard breeder, I'm only going to produce tailed OES pups. Unless breeders want to become authoritarian about this, someone should start right away, since we live in the USA (the land of choice!), and there are those of us who want OES with tails. Importing pups from Europe costs a fortune these days, with the exchange rates being what they are. |
ButtersStotch wrote: Cadenza wrote: kerry wrote: You could rephrase it to are there any politically correct breeders in the US - sorry. Huh? What does politics have to do with this? Are you saying that docking tails is politically incorrect? I'm for beautiful animals and the integrity of choice, that's all. The questions remains, anyone produce healthy OES with tails in the U.S., or do we really have to import them from Europe? I'll answer. No, absolutely not. Here's a different question, then. Many people get on waiting lists for OES pups from a reputable breeder. If prior to a litter being born, a screened and approved buyer was to ask if they could get their pup with an un-docked tail, is it likely that the breeder would decline the offer? And if so, on what basis? Are there any breeders here that could chime in with their feelings? |
| I don't think most reputable breeders have waiting lists actually. and since puppies aren't evaluated for quality until after the age tails need to be docked I am not sure how this would work. |
Cadenza wrote: ButtersStotch wrote: Cadenza wrote: The questions remains, anyone produce healthy OES with tails in the U.S., or do we really have to import them from Europe? I'll answer. No, absolutely not. My, what a great opportunity, then! When I have the time to become a backyard breeder, I'm only going to produce tailed OES pups. Unless breeders want to become authoritarian about this, someone should start right away, since we live in the USA (the land of choice!), and there are those of us who want OES with tails. Importing pups from Europe costs a fortune these days, with the exchange rates being what they are. And if you want it that bad, pay for it. Until then, let us all enjoy the breed we love as we love it. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: ButtersStotch wrote: Cadenza wrote: kerry wrote: You could rephrase it to are there any politically correct breeders in the US - sorry. Huh? What does politics have to do with this? Are you saying that docking tails is politically incorrect? I'm for beautiful animals and the integrity of choice, that's all. The questions remains, anyone produce healthy OES with tails in the U.S., or do we really have to import them from Europe? I'll answer. No, absolutely not. Here's a different question, then. Many people get on waiting lists for OES pups from a reputable breeder. If prior to a litter being born, a screened and approved buyer was to ask if they could get their pup with an un-docked tail, is it likely that the breeder would decline the offer? And if so, on what basis? Are there any breeders here that could chime in with their feelings? No. Part of the US standard is to dock the tail: Tail-- Docked close to the body, when not naturally bob tailed. The whole idea of being a member of OESCA and known as a reputable breeder is to uphold the standard and preserve the breed. Not to mention, most breeders love the breed as it is. They're not taking special requests just because someone wants the dog a certain way. It would be like requesting specific markings on a dog which I know most breeders just shake their head at. It's a Bobtail. Period. |
ButtersStotch wrote: And if you want it that bad, pay for it. Until then, let us all enjoy the breed we love as we love it.
thats sort of harsh; I don't see how one person wanting to own a tailed sheepdog will reduce your enjoyment of the breed. IMO. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: ButtersStotch wrote: And if you want it that bad, pay for it. Until then, let us all enjoy the breed we love as we love it. thats sort of harsh; I don't see how one person wanting to own a tailed sheepdog will reduce your enjoyment of the breed. IMO. Oh you really don't think that that is all that is at play here do you? Anyone who starts a question with and insult has another agenda. I thought Jill's answer was great - I didn't get in trouble for it  |
Quote: Oh you really don't think that that is all that is at play here do you? I guess I'm sort of niave; I really did think thats all this was about. I'm sorry; I was assuming the insult was un-intended, and simply part of the "internet has no tone of voice" thing. Perhaps I am mistaken wanting to believe the best in folks, and to give them the benefit of the doubt. |
ButtersStotch wrote: No. Part of the US standard is to dock the tail: Tail-- Docked close to the body, when not naturally bob tailed. It's a Bobtail. Period. So what is the body that sets and holds the breed standard? The OESCA? AKC? I guess the right thing to do then, is to lobby the breed standard holders to introduce a change allowing tailed dogs. Historically, breed standards are developed and evolve over time, after all, so that any changes (e.g., introducing new bloodlines) happen in a controlled fashion. How does one formally present proposals for these changes? I'm certainly willing to write a few letters, and can engage public figures to support the effort. Allowing tailed dogs won't ban the docking practice for those who have a preference for chopped tails, but it will allow for tailed OES to exist in the U.S. as well. Right now, responsible U.S. dog owners who are ethically opposed to tail docking, or others (like myself) who cosmetically prefer tailed dogs do not have a choice, and that seems un-American to me! |
ButtersStotch wrote: The whole idea of being a member of OESCA and known as a reputable breeder is to uphold the standard and preserve the breed. Not to mention, most breeders love the breed as it is. They're not taking special requests just because someone wants the dog a certain way. It would be like requesting specific markings on a dog which I know most breeders just shake their head at.
It's a Bobtail. Period. I'll second that! |
| OESCA does indeed create the breed standard over time. I would guess that petitioning the club would be the way to go but I think you would need to be a member to be heard. And, even then, a request like that would likely fall on deaf ears. Even the countries with forced legislation didn't want to leave the tails on. They liked the breed as they created it.
There is a lot more at play here than just leaving a tail on. To go from a traditionally tailless dog to a tailed dog changes the movement and overall conformation of the dog. The OES has been bred for generations and generations according to the way its body is carried without a tail. Breeders have studied pedigrees for decades to perfect the dog in its current state. "Pinning a tail on," so to speak, undoes all that work. Now you're starting over to figure out the correct way everything works with a tail. You can't really give buyers a choice because then, really, you're breeding two different dogs. In the countries with tails, they're really relearning things about the breed all over again. The issue of choice always comes up but, really, you do have a choice. If people love tails, there a lot of dogs that have tails. Some of them have similar OES temperaments and looks, too. You could find a clip-on raccoon tail to fulfill your need. Most cats have tails, too. Maybe a gerbil? There are lots of other options other than leaving them on an Old English Sheepdog. All right, I'm being facetious there but I just feel strongly about it. I love the breeds I've had with tails but I love this one without it. |
Cadenza wrote: So what is the body that sets and holds the breed standard? The OESCA? AKC?
I guess the right thing to do then, is to lobby the breed standard holders to introduce a change allowing tailed dogs. Historically, breed standards are developed and evolve over time, after all, so that any changes (e.g., introducing new bloodlines) happen in a controlled fashion. How does one formally present proposals for these changes? I'm certainly willing to write a few letters, and can engage public figures to support the effort. Allowing tailed dogs won't ban the docking practice for those who have a preference for chopped tails, but it will allow for tailed OES to exist in the U.S. as well. Right now, responsible U.S. dog owners who are ethically opposed to tail docking, or others (like myself) who cosmetically prefer tailed dogs do not have a choice, and that seems un-American to me! OESCA (the parent club) sets the standard. If you think for ONE minute that redoing the standard & ALLOWING undocked OES isn't going to lead to banning docking altogether...then all I can say is you have your head buried in the sand. That is opening the door the the AR people & PETA. Just one more step in their direction of bannig us all from owning dogs. |
| Reputable breeders who are breeding to better the breed evaulate their pups over the 1st 8 weeks. What can be our 1st pick in week 3-4 can end up being our last pick in week 8-10. So asking a reputable breeder who breeds for show to leave a tail on for you probably isn't going to happen UNLESS they are only interested in the sale of a puppy. Most reputable breeders decide which puppies are going to which buyers depending on whether they have requested a companion or offered a show home to them as well has evaluating the personality of each pup to make sure it gets placed in the correct "family". Some pups have personalities that are just too rambunctious for a familyy with young children. Others we can tell would prefer to be in a family with kids or other dogs. |
Cadenza wrote: Allowing tailed dogs won't ban the docking practice for those who have a preference for chopped tails, but it will allow for tailed OES to exist in the U.S. as well. Right now, responsible U.S. dog owners who are ethically opposed to tail docking, or others (like myself) who cosmetically prefer tailed dogs do not have a choice, and that seems un-American to me!
Well, then you should be happy to know that you still live in the home of the free, land of etc etc. because no where does it say you can't have an undocked OES. In fact, undocked OES already exist in the US. Even OESCA breeders can produce them if they so desire (we don't) You can even show them. They probably won't finish their championship, but non-docked OES are shown periodically, a visiting European dog even placed in his class at the Centennial, another's been shown at Eukanuba (forget if it was the same dog) and nobody called the police or the AKC or anything of that nature. Show breeders can elect if we want to dock. We do. Since non-show breeders don't breed to any standards anyway, an un-docked OES is well within your future grasp without having to resort to importing because there are already non-show breeders in the US who will happily leave the dogs undocked. Voila! Problem solved, everyone's happy. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Show breeders can elect if we want to dock. We do. Since non-show breeders don't breed to any standards anyway, an un-docked OES is well within your future grasp without having to resort to importing because there are already non-show breeders in the US who will happily leave the dogs undocked. Voila! Problem solved, everyone's happy.
Kristine There's another adjective used to describe non-show breeders isn't there, Kristine? 
Another option is to get a tailed dog from rescue. I've seen them show up there often enough. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: OESCA (the parent club) sets the standard. If you think for ONE minute that redoing the standard & ALLOWING undocked OES isn't going to lead to banning docking altogether...then all I can say is you have your head buried in the sand. That is opening the door the the AR people & PETA. Just one more step in their direction of bannig us all from owning dogs.
That maybe so, but allowing the historical evolution of breed standards be dictated by what PETA might or might not attempt to do politically seems absurd. The breed standard has everything to do with dogs and how a particular breed evolves, period. Discussions over breed standard should not concern PETA or AR stated goals. There are people who do not support PETA or AR activists, yet are sensibly opposed to animal abuse or unnecessary cosmetic procedures. And in many California cities, dog ownership is already illegal in theory: instead, the city licenses you to be a dog guardian. It changes the mental attitude that a dog is something you own (and as property, you can do whatever you want with it, such as amputating body parts), but rather a creature of god that you are agreeing to take guardianship and be responsible for. |
Cadenza wrote: That maybe so, but allowing the historical evolution of breed standards be dictated by what PETA might or might not attempt to do politically seems absurd. The breed standard has everything to do with dogs and how a particular breed evolves, period. Discussions over breed standard should not involve PETA or AR stated goals.
They shouldn't but they do. It's always better to be proactive than be forced to be reactive. |
Cadenza wrote: That maybe so, but allowing the historical evolution of breed standards be dictated by what PETA might or might not attempt to do politically seems absurd. The breed standard has everything to do with dogs and how a particular breed evolves, period. Discussions over breed standard should not concern PETA or AR stated goals.
There are people who do not support PETA or AR activists, yet are sensibly opposed to animal abuse or unnecessary cosmetic procedures. And in many California cities, dog ownership is already illegal in theory: instead, the city licenses you to be a dog guardian. It changes the mental attitude that a dog is something you own (and as property, you can do whatever you want with it, such as amputating body parts), but rather a creature of god that you are agreeing to take guardianship and be responsible for. Cadenza, can you give some examples of breed standards that you think have evolved over time? I cannot think of one that has deviated from the original standard set forth by a breed club. The breed standard for the OES was forced to change in Europe & Australia because government officials were lobbied to put a ban on docking and cropping. Most OES breeders in those countries fought hard against the ban. Good breeders aspire to produce a pup as close as possible to the breed standard, with health & temperament most important. That's it, end of story. You will be hard-pressed to find a tailed pup from any OESCA member nor find too many members up for discussion about changing the standard. I for one, do not feel that docking is cruel if done within the first few days after birth. The non-docking and cropping ban battle is sneaking around the corner here in the US. There will be no tail or dock option. This fight has originated from PETA and HSUS. As much as you don't want the political slant being brought up, it has to, as they are the ones advertising that docking is cruel. They are the ones lobbying hard against anyone "breeding". (Ie., their doggie body bag demonstrations in front of dog shows with signs saying that akc breeders are responsible for killing dogs at shelters.) Don't be surprised that in our lifetime, there may not be anymore sheepdogs. Yes, this is a strong statement to make, but I am only conveying some of the conversations that I've had with some OESCA members. All of the licensing and legislation will not be worth the hassle to them, which I'm sure PETA, etc. is thrilled about. Unfortunately, you will be losing some of the breeders that really care about the breed. I agree that there does need to be better legislation in place for stupid and cruel people when it comes to owning animals. Food for thought: Is mutilating any dog's body parts cruel, like spaying or neutering? |
Cadenza wrote: [That maybe so, but allowing the historical evolution of breed standards be dictated by what PETA might or might not attempt to do politically seems absurd. The breed standard has everything to do with dogs and how a particular breed evolves, period. Discussions over breed standard should not concern PETA or AR stated goals.
It's really quite simple. Only OESCA has the power to change the breed standard in the US, and they don't tend to do so willy-nilly. The less you deviate from the original breed standard, the better. There is no evolution of the Bobtail. We liked it just the way it was from the very beginning and we haven't changed our minds sixty times along the way or it would no longer be a Bobtail. In general, there is no significant "historical evolution" of breed standards, or else they'd merely be "suggestive guidelines" for what a breed should be and you'd never know one decade to the next what you were looking at depending on prevailing fads, political or otherwise. By the time the breed standard has been set, the breed has already been developed. We're not making it up as we go along. This is the breed. Breed standard revisions are predominantly attempts at translating and clarifying what is already there. Kristine |
| [quote="Cadenza]
There are people who do not support PETA or AR activists, yet are sensibly opposed to animal abuse or unnecessary cosmetic procedures. And in many California cities, dog ownership is already illegal in theory: instead, the city licenses you to be a dog guardian. It changes the mental attitude that a dog is something you own (and as property, you can do whatever you want with it, such as amputating body parts), but rather a creature of god that you are agreeing to take guardianship and be responsible for.[/quote] hmmm and what god would that be? I think there is an issue of church and state there. government does not - at least in rationale states - dictate values and under the law an animal is still not equal to people and therefore they are property. its not a value statement it is a legal fact. |
| Here is a perfectly reasonable and sensible change, as to how the OES breed is currently defined in the UK (the birthplace of OES):
> Tail: > Previously customarily docked or natural bobtail. > Docked: Customarily completely docked. > Undocked: Natural carriage. Well feathered with abundant, hard-textured coat. This is from: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/143 One can only hope the OESCA will become enlightened enough to adopt this very sensible change. There is also a picture of an incredibly gorgeous tailed OES on the top of the page. Is it not gorgeous? Is it not an OES? How can anyone say that the dog ceases to be an OES because of the tail or lack of thereof? That is just silly. Like Judge Judy says, "if it doesn't make sense, it's not true!" |
| I think you're totally missing the point in that it is not only cosmetic. It almost has to be an all or nothing change-- a change that those that love and are heavily involved in the breed do not want.
Why is it that the small moral majority finds it necessary to make itself heard on issues that really are of no concern to them? The complainers aren't people who have been breeding and studying the breed for their entire lifetimes. It's people that think "Oh, I think a tail would look good so I will, therefore, make a big noisy stink and ruin it for everyone." Seriously, if you want a tail on your dog, get another breed or get one from overseas. You'll never get support from the breed club in the United States on this issue. Ever. |
| VerveUp,
Thanks for your reply, you seem to be well informed on the issue. But the ban in other countries have not destroyed the breed (am I right, UK members?), nor will it happen here. And obviously, one does not equate spaying and neutering, which addresses a critical and wide raging humane and public health mission, with tail docking, which nowadays is strictly a cosmetic procedure. To enforce tail docking on EVERY OES is just as draconian as banning docking altogether. The only reason I hear for docking tails IS cosmetic: "oh, they make them look so cute, like a bear, wiggle bums..." That is just not a compelling enough reason to have the tail of ALL of these animals amputated. Very best, Cadenza |
| you just don't get it. calling the UK enlightened because of their stance on docking is a value judgement of your own and one that immediately puts others on the defensive. you are arguing with no basis of fact and only emotion based on the political manipulations of others. And if I remember correctly your earlier postings against boutique breeders in favor of BYB perhaps its intentional.
Spaying and neutering does not serve a higher purpose. there is no critical wide ranging humane and public health mission (public health does after all refer to human health issue). Mandatory spay and neuter only plays into the hands of PITA and the AR groups at the expense of dogs who suffer from third class status in their own species and physical and emotional damages from the lack of necessary hormones. While we are on the subject, I think we should BAN all piercings for everyone under the age of 21 because it is a cruel and inhuman practice only done for cosmetic reasons. Anyone who pierces the ears of an infant should be shunned or worse. |
Cadenza wrote: Here is a perfectly reasonable and sensible change, as to how the OES breed is currently defined in the UK (the birthplace of OES):
> Tail: > Previously customarily docked or natural bobtail. > Docked: Customarily completely docked. > Undocked: Natural carriage. Well feathered with abundant, hard-textured coat. This is from: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/143 One can only hope the OESCA will become enlightened enough to adopt this very sensible change. There is also a picture of an incredibly gorgeous tailed OES on the top of the page. Is it not gorgeous? Is it not an OES? How can anyone say that the dog ceases to be an OES because of the tail or lack of thereof? That is just silly. Like Judge Judy says, "if it doesn't make sense, it's not true!" You do like to stir thing up don't you. As you stated, that is the UK standard. We live in the USA. And if you look back at history the reason for people immigrating to the USA has been so they don't have to have people forcing legislation on them, especially without any say so.(Remember no taxation without representation?????The Boston Tea Party?). And I feel I can say this because all 4 of my grandparents immigrated to this couontry legally from Europe. As Kristine said, you do have a choice....find a BYB (and believe me they are abundant....I see their dogs in the rescue program all the time) who thinks they know what they are doing & order your tailed OES out of their next litter. Just don't expect to have very much health testing done on the parents (if any at all). And when they tell you they've never had hip problems in their line, it most likely is because they have never had any of their dogs or progeny x-rayed. Don't know you got hip problems if you don't x-ray! That's just one of the health screenings that raise the purchase price of a pup from a reputable breeder breeding to better the breed & a BYB breeding a litter for $$$$. |
| There are a lot of people giving wonderful, well-thought opinions here with years of experience to back it up. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion but in this case, making new suggestions for the breed without that experience behind you is the equivalent of the guy at the casino with an empty cup giving out advice on how to gamble.
This is stirring people up for no reason. The people who love this breed most will fight to keep it as it is and how they worked so long to preserve it. We usually have this discussion once every few months so, for now, I'm locking this one up until we have to talk about it again. Thanks for everyone's opinions. |
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