First Annual (?) OESCSEWI Herding Instinct test
The following passed (in running order): CH Masquerade Megabucks RN (Luca)/S. McQuiston (Lucali) & M Harris (CH Qubic's The Buck Stops Here x CH Masquerade Milennium RN) Larame Indigo Consider This (Orlando)/C. Lawrenz & J. Butkowski (CH Wynsilot Analyze This x CH Indigo Larame Out Of The Blue) Larame Never Ending Love (Sadie) J & V Braun (CH Shaggybear's Skywalker x CH Larame Just Zip It) Saltydawg's Ms Sadie Hawkins (Sadie) J Guthrie (NEOESR Rescue) Larame Th' Whole KitN Kaboodle (Donna)/C Lawrenz & J Butkwoski (CH Larame Luvtym Brotherly Luv x CH Larame Indigo Dancin' D'Blues Away) Tess/R & R Jobin (Mustangricky) (Midwest-Indiana Rescue) Basil/R Morrows (R. Morrows also on the forum) Larame Indigo Sir Gustavious (Gus Gus)/C & M Meyer (CH Wynsilot Analyze This x CH Indigo Larame Out Of The Blue) Masquerade Midnight Madness (Macy)/KB Loland & M Harris (Ch Shaggybear's Skywalker x CH Masquerade Mad Money) Simon/P & R Geipel (Simon's Mom  )
Luvtym Jack Of R Hearts (Jax)/ B & D Mooers (CH Luvtym Lucky Shags X Luvtym Th' Vixen) Dory/ P & A Daniel (CH Shaggybear's Skywalker x CH Larame Just Zip It) Masquerade Must Be Madness (Sybil)/KB Loland (Ch Shaggybear's Skywalker x CH Masquerade Mad Money) Larame Indigo Walk This Way (Izzy)/ C. Lawrenz & J. Butkowski (CH Wynsilot Analyze This x CH Indigo Larame Out Of The Blue) Garfunkel (nee Bear)/ P & R Geipel (Simon's Mom) Wisconsin Rescue Blueshires London (London)/D Newman ("Bentley" x Can Ch Blueshire's Smarty Pants - Amber: not sure which Bentley - please fill in if you read this) Miss Chevious Miley Rose (Miley)/B. Margenau (MonsterMom) I included all of the "additional" information because as a breeder I like to see who is producing what - not just in terms of passes, but the bonus is to see the actual working style; as a rescue person, I'm thrilled when I get to see them in action -- we had three and all were fabulous!!!; and as a forum participant I love it when I get to see fellow forum members' dogs in action. An incredible group of dogs and people. Congrats to all and I hope some of you go on to work with your dogs. There was a whole lot of talent out there!!! 
Please fill in/correct as needed. I wasn't taking pics (as usual - too busy secretarying) but will post if I get some from people and I think I will, and hope others will post as well. Special thanks to the Wisconsin OES club's prez. Chris Lawrenz of Larame for enthusiastically backing my suggestion that the club should offer this, both in words and deed, to club member Barb Mooers for adding her special touch to the refreshments and to OES breeder/herding enthusiast Jeanne Kelley of Furoaks who did much of the actual work and guided me through the rest and to Shannon Wolfe of Magic's Legacy who not only did the testing but explained to us what both she and the dog were doing with each dog. And, of course, a special thank you to all of the intrepid participants! Off to take a nap (!!!) What a fabulous weekend. Haven't had this much fun in forever. There is something so incredibly special about seeing our dogs turn on to what they were supposed to be bred to do. Makes me hopeful for the future. 
Kristine |
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| That sounds great!!
I would have loved to see this bunch too (as well as last month in MN at the nationals) Congrats to all on getting out there and doing it!  |
| How cool!! Now about 85 percent of people stop with the herding test. let's try to break those odds!!
I don't want to hijack this thread but thought i could share somethings you have to look forward to. We went to herding class today and I can share some things that some might find disheartening: 1) 2 hour drive each way 2) Marley decided she wanted to chase not herd, so she went back to the crate 3) Morgan (who has been sick) decided on his first go round that he was too tired to do more than look at the sheep after one go round 4) Marley (who is in season and just being stupid) came back for a round and did okay - then decided she was bored and refused to move away from the gate. 5) Morgan (I am blaming the Lyme) came back in and decided that keeping the sheep together was too much work or he couldn't any longer count to three 6) Marley tried yet again and was soooo relaxed around the sheep she walked up to them and they all stood in the shade of the barn together My instructor was quite amused and wouldn't even take full payment for the lesson  
Oh well we will try again next weekend - some days it all clicks and other days, well, other days it doesn't pay to get in the car  |
| Actually, Kerry, I think you hit on the most important part - making the leap to herding training. 15% going on to work with their dogs would be a HIGH estimate, though we did have at least 4 people (that I know of) make inquiries about lessons.
I did after I had Belle tested. Well, not her herding instinct test, which was at the '01 National. A year (I think) later I was seeing someone with a young Aussie and I accompanied him to have his dog evaluated. She didn't show much instinct, but I had brought Belle with me for company and she was going nuts in the car so Shannon offered to work her for me. She had aced the instinct testing, but seeing Shannon actually work her made ME want to try. We took lessons for a number of months but I eventually went back to focusing on agility. I often thought I wasn't fair to Belle who was very clear in what SHE preferred, but I never felt like I had a clue what I was doing, so no idea how to make any progress with her. And it was a hike. I've moved closer now and the drive is under an hour...the cluelessness remains though. Herding is by far the hardest thing I've ever tried. Dog has instinct. Me? None.
I always thought Belle was a bit of a chaser more than a herder. By the time I tested Mad I had a bit better appreciation for some of the finer points and though she had none of Belle's intensity (the first time Belle saw sheep I had to take her so far away from the arena that she couldn't see the other dogs working, she was hysterical), in some ways I thought she was more promising. Mad was very workmanlike about it and you could see her thinking her way through the exercises, sort of a "if I do this, sheep do that - hm! Interesting!!" It was especially interesting to test her kids today. Mace, who had been barking ring side, walked in, took one look at the sheep (out of the corner of her eye), the sheep took one look at her and started stomping their feet. Not a lot of power there. She lacked confidence. Shannon had me take her out, let another dog with a "bad ass" reputation try the sheep, he struggled with them too, she changed the sheep out and brought Mace back in. I still had to give her "permission" to "chase" the sheep. Once she figured out she had my permission, she got a little obnoxious quite frankly. Once she got going she got a bit yahoo, but I didn't see a lot of brain power to go with it She put them in a corner and then couldn't figure out how to get them out of there so Shannon had to help her. Like Belle, she prefers to work pretty close; unlike Belle, when she got frustrated, she gave voice a couple of times which none of my dogs have ever done before. It was interesting to watch.
I had a feeling Sybil would be different and from the minute she walked into the arena this difference was obvious. The sheep took notice. She has more power than what I saw in her mom, but the same workman like style. No wasted energy, just very aware of her impact on the sheep, held them together very nicely, was naturally more balanced than any of the girls I've tested to date and stayed off the sheep better, which was really nice. Of course, now I'm itching to work with her, but will I follow through since she's also my best agility prospect? Hm 
Oh, and I saw this promising young male...I've see him before and liked him a lot as a dog, but watching him work really got me thinking
As for your lesson, some days are like that. Harder when you have two and they both decide to have an off day. I hope Morgan feels better soon. The TBDs really take a lot out of them. Kristine |
| Well done you lot and what a great pass for the group, would of loved to of seen them all doing what can come naturally for them.
A few weeks ago the OES Club here had a herding instinct day with good results for the mob of OES. Way to go all of you for attending and trying the dogs with herding. So much laughs and fun to be had by all that go & a good result for the breed. |
| Great job......isn't herding fun????? Just watching the sheepies with the sheep!!!!It's so exciting!!! |
| Kristine - as usual you managed to go right to the point. herding is hard because it is something we are being trained in at the same time as the dogs. Yesterday Sarah kept telling me what was going wrong and I was like duh - they just aren't in the mood. She looked and said - yes but today we are training you! hmm not something most intelligent adults want to hear.
The good thing is that herding closes up for the year around here when the ground freezes (less broken ankles that way) and we can get back to agility and rally - there was some date in March or something I was suppossed to remember The other good thing is herding training - unless you have sheep -is more incremental and spread out than agility training - in other words if Marley can do both I am sure her young distant cousin can - as my kids tell me - what do you mean you need to sleep? |
Here are some action shots of Luca Herding! I was going to be seriously mortified if he showed no interest at all! Thankfully after I ran with him for a bit he finally got the hang if it. Although I was told by the tester that he would have had a better time if he could see...
 [/img] |
| And thanks to Sunny's fiance, also known as St Will:
Macy 
Still haven't found anyone who has a picture of Sybil yet. It was raining pretty steadily by then as I recall
Sunny - you need to consider putting his head coat up properly for agility and obedience as well. Just think how great he could be if he could actually SEE you and the obstacles... 
Kristine |
Yeah...he'd be that much faster... I'm working out to build up stamina for that  |
| GOATS!!!!?
You guys tested on goats? excuse me these are Old English SHEEP Dogs. I can tell you Marley would eat a goat before she would herd one. Oh I really wish I could have seen this. Goats do not equal sheep - how funny. Oh I need to hear more. Okay I know they are sheep but they do look like goats in the photos. |
| What goats?8O Sybil was the only goat in the arena
You can test on goats. Belle has worked both sheep and goats. Made no difference to her. But, yeah, some of the sheep she used were very different from stock of hers that we've worked before. Maybe Dawn can shed some light on what they may be. Kristine |
Iknow you can test on duck, sheep, goats cattle - unruly kindergarteners at the mall (oh that may just be a fantasy of mine  ). But I would think it makes a difference in how th e dogs react. I actually used to own colored sheep and these guys are odd looking.
I found out this morning our county IDA has an agricultural incubator - so my own sheep may be in the offing in the spring. |
kerry wrote: Iknow you can test on duck, sheep, goats cattle - unruly kindergarteners at the mall (oh that may just be a fantasy of mine
). But I would think it makes a difference in how th e dogs react. I actually used to own colored sheep and these guys are odd looking. When I started working Belle at Shannon's she had us work goats. I can't remember why. Maybe because they were easier? They didn't seem easier to me at the time, but what do I know? Belle didn't react much differently between the two. Her idea of herding was always run as fast and furiously as possible to make the critters move (she was big on circles - and then Shannon would have me make her change directions so we could work on circling the other way. There were times when I thought I was going to lose my lunch. Very dizzying )I never tried her on cattle or geese or ducks. She's never shown a lot of interest in fowl to begin with, so I don't know how that would have gone, if at all. I think Sybil *might* be willing to give ducks a whirl. Then again, she may just be thinking she needs something to go with the orange sauce. Anybody's guess I found out this morning our county IDA has an agricultural incubator - so my own sheep may be in the offing in the spring. OK, what is an IDA, what is an agricultural incubator and how does this translate into you getting sheep (very envious, period. But baffled as well )
Kristine |
| IDA stands for Industrial Development Agency and we in my county are lucky to have a very creative one. Part of the tradeoff for brining in industry and jobs is creating green space. to do this they are buying up old family farms that people want to sell, putting them in a land trust and then offering them for th euse of people interested in agribusness. their example was a couple wants to grow organic strawberries - we let them use 5 acres free of charge and rent them the equipement to use so they can create a business - just like a regular business incubator.
Being - well me - I asked the person I was talking to (for legitimate State work purposes) what about livestock? He said sounds fine. i then told him it would be for sheep for dog herding. I am planning it out. |
| Being a "city girl" I didn't even notice they were goats until Kerry pointed it out.
Congratulations to all of the dogs. Sunny, you might not of had to run if Luca's hair was out of his eyes. I am all for NOT running. |
SheepieMommy wrote: Being a "city girl" I didn't even notice they were goats until Kerry pointed it out.
Congratulations to all of the dogs. Sunny, you might not of had to run if Luca's hair was out of his eyes. I am all for NOT running. sorry they were sheep - just look like goats and I was being "difficult" |
kerry wrote: Being - well me - I asked the person I was talking to (for legitimate State work purposes) what about livestock? He said sounds fine. i then told him it would be for sheep for dog herding. I am planning it out.
Kerry! That sounds fabulous!!! Keep us posted! Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: kerry wrote: Being - well me - I asked the person I was talking to (for legitimate State work purposes) what about livestock? He said sounds fine. i then told him it would be for sheep for dog herding. I am planning it out. Kerry! That sounds fabulous!!! Keep us posted! Kristine actually if I can get my herding instructor interested it will make a great training venue cause it is right off a thruway exit above Kingston/new Paltz and below Albany - so lots of area to draw from. I may even get into other training at a different site- bringing trainers in to an area where we don't have enough. |
kerry wrote: actually if I can get my herding instructor interested it will make a great training venue cause it is right off a thruway exit above Kingston/new Paltz and below Albany - so lots of area to draw from. I may even get into other training at a different site- bringing trainers in to an area where we don't have enough.
Move to Wisconsin!!!!!!! We need innovative people like you!
Kristine |
| Unfortunatly I don't get paid unless I come to work (pretty much) and WIsconsin is a long commute. |
kerry wrote: Unfortunatly I don't get paid unless I come to work (pretty much) and WIsconsin is a long commute.
Please! Like WI doesn't have a state government
Get packing!
KB |
| much as it pains me to say this - they don't have NY salaries which translate to a liveable pension (when you move a number of big furry dogs to a lower cost of living state ) |
kerry wrote: much as it pains me to say this - they don't have NY salaries which translate to a liveable pension (when you move a number of big furry dogs to a lower cost of living state
)Yup, whiner!!!!
Why not move now.....enjoy the life you have!!! |
| On behalf of Rose and Tess, thanks to all involved for a really fun day at the herding instinct test.
"Tess was on those sheep like a Hobo on a Ham Sandwich"  . She loved it. I must admit we had no expectations but were unbelievably suprised at Tess' reaction and abiltiy. Very little coaxing and she was totally focused. The written evaluation was very positive. I was one proud PaPa. We're working on getting the video downloaded. Does anyone know of a herding contact in Michigan?
We know very little of Tess' first 15 months (she's 29 months now); as a rescue she has been an absolute joy and continues to excell in what ever she tries. Thanks again to Nita & Jill; awsome pup!!! Ricardo P.S. Tess wants more playtime with that hunk Nelson! |
| Glad everyone had fun! Ah, if we only knew that this year would've been the year of the sheepdog at herding! Last year we were the lone sheepdog and more of them would have made the day go by much more quickly. |
| I finally went back and reread the posts.
There are 2 kinds of sheep divided by coat - hair sheep and wool sheep. They are hair sheep. Not sure of the breeds - I would have to look it up. We are most used to wool sheep in our part of the world. Sheep are also split in 2 groups by purpose - wool/fiber or meat.
I knew all this sheep trivia taking up space in my brain might get used someday. |
Mustangricky wrote: P.S. Tess wants more playtime with that hunk Nelson!
Nelson may just hop in the car and ride to Michigan to see his gal Tess. He also had a thing going on with one of Kristine's girls... |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: Nelson may just hop in the car and ride to Michigan to see his gal Tess. He also had a thing going on with one of Kristine's girls...
Yes, but it was this weird kind of masochistic thing... I think he should stick to nice OES girls like Tess. Not weird ones like Sybil
Kristine |
got sheep wrote: Sheep are also split in 2 groups by purpose - wool/fiber or meat.
I knew all this sheep trivia taking up space in my brain might get used someday. And after much ongoing discussion elsewhere, I finally remembered to check the premium, where they were actually listed: St. Croix crosses
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: got sheep wrote: Sheep are also split in 2 groups by purpose - wool/fiber or meat. I knew all this sheep trivia taking up space in my brain might get used someday. And after much ongoing discussion elsewhere, I finally remembered to check the premium, where they were actually listed: St. Croix crosses Kristine From my favorite sheep website (yes I am a hick!!) and I really use this site.
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/ St. Croix Also Known As: Virgin Island White, White Virgin Islander, White Virgin Island The Virgin Island White breed is found in the U.S. and British Virgin Islands in the Caribbean. It is believed to have descend from the hair sheep of west Africa, but some feel it is a cross of the Wiltshire Horn and the native Criollo. Most of these sheep are white with some solid tan, brown, black or white with brown or black spots. Both sexes are polled, and rams have a large throat ruff. Mature Virgin Island White ewes and rams weigh 35 and 45 kg, respectively. Twenty-five Virgin Island White sheep, 22 ewes and 3 rams, were selected in St. Croix and imported into the U.S. by Dr. W. C. Foote of Utah State University in 1975. There were no records available on the animals. The criteria for selection were white color, lack of wool and average or better body size and conformation. These sheep were the basis of the present St. Croix breed in the U.S. The size of the ewes in the U.S. averages 119 pounds, while the rams average 163 pounds. St. Croix ewe's lambs show high fertility at 6-7 months of age. Lambing rate varies from 150 - 200% with two lambings a year not uncommon. They are being used in production and cross breeding studies in Utah, as well as California, Florida, North Carolina and Ohio. Purebred lines have been maintained, and as numbers increase, animals have been released to private breeders. The St. Croix has been shaped by natural as well as human selection. As a result, they are climate adapted, fertile and excellent foragers. Exceptional parasite resistance compared to British sheep breeds has been documented in studies at several universities. While they can withstand high heat and humidity better than British sheep breeds, they have adapted to variable climatic conditions in many parts of the country. In colder zones they produce a very heavy winter coat of mixed wool and hair that is shed in the spring. Birth weights average 6-7 lbs. A mature ram can weigh 200 lbs, and a ewe can weigh 150 lbs. They are easy to handle, and are active and vigorous but show no tendency to be wild. They are generally more resistant to internal parasites than conventional sheep. The ewes can breed back after one month after lambing. Ewes can produce two lamb crops per year. Lambs are usually twins, some singles, often triplets and occasionally quadruplets. The St. Croix is reported to be a docile, calm breed with good flocking instincts. Their adaptations to many of the problems experienced in tropical and sub-tropical regions would seem to make them a prime candidate for sheep production in those areas. Status: RARE There were 300 registrations in 1990, up from 135 in 1985. The breed is unique to North America. For more information: St. Croix Sheep Breeders International Association St. Croix Hair Sheep Breeders of North America |
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