Geting a cross OES puppy...maybe
I know this is a "designer" breed, I just want a cute healthy puppy. If they have a better chance by being a mixed then that's what I want. I don't want a mixed from a shelter, I'm sorry but I like some info before I buy. I can't take any chances and end up with a Rotti cross, when they thought it was a cocker spaniel...for example. So if anybody has an OES cross, I'd love to know if they have any regrets, or would you have preferred a pure bred. |
|
|
| a "poo" whatever is really hyped right now. As far as "hybrid vigor" well- yes and no. From a genetic strength standpoint- mixing genes can help improve a hybrid dog. But- you also have the problem of not knowing what you are going to get- With a (well bred!) pure bred dog- you can go back several generation, check to see if mom, grandma, great grandma etc. had hereditary health issues, behavoral problems etc. With a mixed breed dog, it is much tougher to do that. Does this mean that your pup will healthy or unhelthy- uit is hard to say. If you want a poodle cross, then treat it like you would buying a regular sheepie. Talk to the breeder- are they testing their breeding stock for an health issues- allergies, hips, eyes, hearts, etc.? Do the dam and sire have any health issues? Just because it is a sheepie-poo doesn't mean that the health of the parents isn't a factor. Read up on the advice we give pure bred puppy buyers. There are a lot of mixed breed dogs out there, and just because it's a mix, doesn't mean you'll love it any less. Point in case- Sir Cuteness (Aka- Pooh Bear)
Karen  |
| Labradoodles were bred for a PURPOSE originally - now they are bred wildly by puppy millers for the sole purpose of making a dollar! People are buying them because they are the latest craze (just like a new designer purse). They are also dumping them in shelters - just like you would dump that out of style designer purse at the local thrift shop.
What's the purpose of breeding an OES and a Poodle together? Cute - I'm sure - but I can't think of a purpose - other than to make a buck! How many of these designer dogs does this "breeder" manufacture? What type of testing has been done on the sire/dam??? What's their lineage and what type of problems have been in their lines? Just because you are mixing two breeds together - doesn't decrease your chance of problems! Have you visited this kennel??? Have you met the sire/dam? What conditions are the puppies raised in? How many other breeds is she creating??? Sorry but this entire "designer dog" craze makes me sick to my stomach! JMHO. Kristen |
| Hi
I happen to have an OES/English Setter...she is a rescue...saved just in the nick of time...she is wonderful,wonderful,wonderful...love her to pieces...sweet temperment & a real goofus but I would never buy a cross...there are soooo many fantastic puppers (purebred & crosses) in shelters that need a loving home! I was looking for an OES or Bearded Collie when I found Cassie...I fell in love with this girlie..still would like the purebred OES one day  Petfinder is a good place to start! Yikes...so many  |
| And if that's Cassie in your avatar - she's beautiful!!!!
Kristen |
| Hi Kristen...Yes...meet Cassie!
Thank you...I think she's a cutie..we get soooooo many questions/comments at the dog park! Most common being...Is she a breed? She is a real sweetie  I am so blessed to have found her!
Diane...thank DOG for rescue |
| I wasn't going to reply to this one, because honestly, the subject bugs me. LOL However, I must say I agree with Kristen.
Hybrid vigor IS genetically correct for the most part. With breeds mixing together though, especially two purebreds mixed to create something that is no longer purebred, you have just as great a chance of strengthening genetic faults as you do of strengthening good traits and "hybrid vigor" Now, that aside, out of the 300 breeds now available, genetically speaking, almost all of them are "man made" breeds. Geneticists believe that only approximately 10 breeds led to the creation of all purebred dogs. So, if you have a 50/50 chance of having an exceptionally healthy dog who has the best of the two, or getting a diseased, mentally unstable, dog who has the worst of the two, why not get a purebred of the breed of your choice, from a reputable breeder who has spent years with their breed, working to ensure RELIABLE health and temperment, and offers guarantees to protect you in the event that something does go wrong, which you will not get with a mixed breed. If you would really rather have a cross, there are lots of dogs who need to be rescued. A 2 year old rescue dog if it is going to have any medical problems, will most likely show it by then, or if not you are at least getting a better idea of what the dog is like, temperment wise etc. |
| Willowsprite hit it dead on, hybrid vigor is only as good as the two dogs in question. It a game of chance, you just can't gaurantee which genes these puppies will take from the parents. Therorectically speaking you should get the dominant genes of both, and the reccessive will stay hidden. Dogs carry two genes for everything, but it only takes one of those genes from each parent, if both parents have a recessive gene...it creates a dominant gene...that can be bad if it is a problem gene...eyes, throyoid, hips all genetic.
I hope I have this right, you can research it, but you may come away more confused. You will find just as many sites to claim that hybrid vigor is false as you will find sites to claim it is true. So in the end, it is a chance one takes on getting a cross. We had a husky/lab cross, I was hoping he wouldn't take on husky howling traits...but he looked liked a husky and therefore he sounded just like a husky, but he also LOVED water, and carrying things around in his mouth. he had the sweetest temp of both breeds, and was a healthy dog. Most of my life we've had crossbreeds, and unless an accident befell them, they lived for many years. My only experience with pure breeds, is my OES...great girl, prone to ear infections...I haven't had a problem for a long time now. And a boxer, he ended up having hayfever allergies. Both are exactly like the breed discription, and both have been my favorite dogs. Get what you love, don't settle. |
| IMO To keep a purebred dog in genetic good shape we should be opening our eyes and crossbreeding, open the stud books. I think we are on the edge of a new breeding program coming into place. Hopefully the Kennel clubs will be smart enough to open up their stud books and allow for a smarter way to breed dogs.
As for now, I think that cross breeding is genetically smart, and purebred breeding is genetically wrong. Think about it this way, all purebreds started out as mixed breeds, you close the stud books on a small population to set a standard conformation, behavior etc. So, inbreeding can't help but happen. When you inbred (such as the Royal family) genetic disease cannot help but happen. So, here we are thinking that by certifying purebreds against genetic disease is going to some how improve a breed as a whole is a joke. When you are breeding for a purebred you are "creating" these genetic diseases. In the 1960's they first started to notice HD, at that time started screening against this genetic defect...but, look how ramid this genetic disease has taken over the purebred dog population regardless of the screening programs in place. Genetic screening does nothing to keep a purebred dog from passing on genetic defects. Purebred dogs no longer fit together properly...they are literally falling apart. New genetic diseases are popping up every day. So for myself, I say...kennel clubs open your eyes and look at what you are doing to a population of dogs. Its just wrong and very sad. Open up the stud books and perhaps add some of the founding breeds to your new breeding programs. I support crossbreeding and the end of purebred breeding with closed stud books. When you think about it genetically...doesnt purebred breeding just sound wrong? 
If you want a better understanding read this article
http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/g ... g.html#toc |
| Guest, you are absolutely right. Inbreeding and linebreeding that has gone on since the creating of each and every breed is killing them all. Genetic diversity is the only way to save them, but breeders are set in their ways, Kennel Clubs refuse to admit that by closing the stud books they have doomed what they set out to protect.
The UK Kennel Club recently released a proposal to finally re open the stud books for many breeds native to the UK. I think it is an exciting and important first step. They are not yet open to cross breeding, however, they have set a plan in motion where for example, Bearded Collies who are still maintained as purebred on farms, but not registered, will be evaluated by judges and breeders, and entered into a breeding program that will be strictly monitored. The first generation of these will be registered with ***, the second with **, the third with *, and the fourth will be normally registered and accepted for shows. Here is the proposal set out by the UKKC. Friday, 21 January, 2005 The General Committee of the Kennel Club has recently been considering the possibility of opening the breed register to individual unregistered dogs which can, in specific circumstances, be shown to have potential benefit to future pedigree stock. The Committee has asked that, in view of the potentially far-reaching implications of this proposal, wide consultation should take place before a final decision is taken. PROPOSAL The intention of this proposal is not to produce a general route for the registration of otherwise non-eligible dogs. However, there may well be purebred dogs in the population that are good representatives of a breed, but which cannot be registered because one or other parent, or both parents are not registered. One example is a population of Bearded Collies that has been maintained on farms as purebred dogs, but has remained outside of the KC registration database. The introduction of some of these dogs into the KC registration system could, in certain circumstances, have potential benefits for the breed at large. Another example comes from one of the breeds identified as a vulnerable breed, the Lancashire Heeler. Several established breeders have expressed the opinion that the breed register was closed too early and that there is non-registered Lancashire Heeler stock that could be incorporated onto the breed database, bringing much needed genetic variation to the breed. There may also be individual dogs in various breeds whose parentage is not registered or is even unknown, but where, with proper justification provided, the Kennel Club Committee might consider registration to be appropriate PAST PRACTICE The proposal, if carried through, would be the re-introduction of a procedure that was used until the late 1960s to register dogs which would not otherwise be able to be registered and has also been used in very recent times to register individual dogs such as a Saluki imported from a country which did not have an established kennel club. CASE BY CASE APPROACH The suggestion is that each application for registration would be discussed on a case-by-case basis and would require to be accompanied by support, which demonstrated the benefit to the breed. Ideally, individual claims for registration would have breed club support, but it is not suggested that this would be an absolute requirement. The proposal is that if a dog is registered in this way, then it would be identified in the breed register by three asterisks. If the dog was then mated to a dog already on the breed register, then it is proposed that the litter would have two asterisks. One of these mated to another dog on the register would mean the 2 nd generation would have one asterisk, and the asterisk would disappear on the third generation. PROPOSED REGULATION The proposed regulation change would be as follows, as an addition to the Kennel Club B Regulations: B5. Special Entry to the Breed or Imported Breed Registers. 1.. Special entry to the Breed or Imported Breed Register may, at the discretion of the General Committee, be permitted if: . the dog is of a breed that has been recognised for the purposes of Regulation B1a. or B1b. and . the dog is resident in the United Kingdom (except in the Channel Islands) and . one or both of the dog's parents is unregistered; and More.. . the dog is over twelve months of age; and . the dog is permanently identified either by DNA profile or microchip. 1.. In considering whether or not to permit special entry under Regulation B.5.a), the General Committee may require written confirmation that the dog conforms adequately to the relevant Breed Standard from three judges appointed by the General Committee to examine the dog. 1.. If the dog is permitted to be registered its records will be annotated in accordance with Regulation B2c. ADDRESS FOR VIEWS Since this proposal could have far reaching effects, the General Committee, as stated above, has asked that views of all interested parties are now widely sought on the matter. Correspondence should be addressed to Dr Jeff Sampson at the Kennel Club, 1 Clarges Street, Piccadilly, London W1J 8AB. The closing date for submissions is 31 st March 2005. 21/1/05 ENDS For further information please contact Press Office 020 7518 1008 / 1020 pressoffice@t... |
| Now, because I am happy about them considering opening the stud books, that doesn't mean I advocate just anyone crossing whatever dog with whatever breed. There are more than enough mixed breeds AND purebreds that are in shelters, rescue, and living on the streets. There are plenty of backyard breeders and puppy mills with no concern for health issues breeding dogs with a lifetime of problems.
I feel any type of breeding program should only be in the hands of people who truly care about dogs, their chosen breed/breeds, including the health, temperment, and quality of life of each and every dog they aid in the conception of. People willing to research, plan, and monitor what they are doing for generations. I am happy about the UKKC proposal because it will ensure the survival of purebred dogs, each breed can be counted on for the most part to be what is expected, something that cannot be said of a mixed breed. Even in programs where a totally different breed is chosen to infuse genetic diversity and attempt to eliminate health problems is only done for just that reason, and then carefully chosen and bred back to type once goals have been accomplished. The Shar Pei is one such breed. 80% of Shar Pei's have serious, life threatening, debiliating disease. They are so genetically alike after so many generations of inbreeding, it is impossible to find a healthy dog to breed from, so they are now looking to other breeds, even ones nothing like a shar pei, to save their breed. |
| Willowsprite, I am happy to hear that UKKC is taking a step in the right direction
Every time I try to have this conversation with Purebred dog breeders I get slammed and ignored  I have sat by and watched my friends breed dogs perfect for the show rings, win their championship titles and then complain that there are no healthy dogs to bred to. I have watched as breeders first had to do AI's as their dogs could no longer breed naturally, to watching my friends deal with bitches having to go through C sections and puppies born dead. Now, I stand back in shock as breeders are now surgically inplanting sperm into bitches as they can no longer do AI's ...yes, they spend fortunes on their dogs certiying, breeding, showing etc. but, for what? they are spending a fortune to create genetic messes. I have a friend who had 2 genetically certified Bernese Mountain dogs...not a genetic health problem on either side...they whelped a genetic disaster..the pups had to be put down as they were so genetically deformed. This is happening more and more all the time.
I myself own 3 purebred dogs Champions in 3 countries, these dogs can't go for hikes as one has ED and the other 2 don't have the stamna. The breeders complain and I usually just say that perhaps they could "fix" their problems by opening up the stud books. Perhaps take some of the founding breeds and re establish them into the breeding pool...make a large gene pool. You may have a few dogs that are not "typy" or "showy"...but, for heavens sake if thats all that we are breeding for is the next BIS winner then we are a very shallow species. Thank you for not flaming me for my opinion. Some times I feel as though I am the only one around who agrees with people who study genetics instead of purebred breeders.
I really think the UKC and CKC need to open their eyes and listen to the persons who care about the dogs not the breeders who are more concerned about the BIS win they may obtain. There are still plenty of natural mongrels (forefathers of our purebreds) still left in the world which have not been touched by man. They bred naturally with no one choosing a mate. Logically enough they are the healthiest and longest lived dogs around which suffer from literally no genetic disease. Mother nature has a great way of breeding for perfect healthy animals. Man on the other hand is pretty narrow minded and takes a long time to realize the wrong he has done. 
Thanks for listening to my rant and thanks for not hating me for my opinions. |
| Heres a great website on why purebred breeding is bad genetics.
The Genetic Tide Continues to Swell: Will DNA marker research stop the flood? by Jeffrey Bragg The tide of concern about genetic health continues to swell within the purebred dog fancy, driven on by scrutiny from without. The threat of punitive legislation, already a reality in Europe, is widespread in the USA and the contagion seems certain to reach Canada as well. Conventional screening methods appear to be a proven failure as far as curing genetic disease (rather than simply reducing it somewhat). As veterinarian breeder Ms. Chidiac-Storimans once wrote in Dogs in Canada, "obviously, breeding clear to clear does not work." Yet great optimism is expressed in canine journals despite the seeming crisis proportions of genetic disease. DNA marker research now holds the limelight. The US$750,000 canine genome project at the University of Michigan, reported in the press in 1990 as expected to identify DNA marker sequences for over 400 canine genetic diseases, has actually established 625 markers and as a "demonstration project" was able to link one marker to a specific genetic disorder, copper toxicosis in Bedlington terriers. This and several other DNA tests for breed-specific disorders are now marketed by VetGen in Ann Arbor MI, where the University is also located. The Scottish Terrier Club of America recently paid US$50,000 to establish a DNA marker for canine von Willebrand's disease in their breed; other breed clubs are reportedly queueing up to pay similar sums for similar purposes. Obviously there is money to be made in canine genetic diseases, though perhaps not by dog breeders. Even if every breed club had that kind of money to spend on marker development, and every breeder could afford $50 to $135 per test for all his dogs, there would remain plenty of room for doubt concerning whether the strategy of DNA marker tests followed by radical selection and culling would solve the problem of genetic disease. Gene pools of purebred dog breeds, already stripped and impoverished of genetic diversity by twenty or thirty generations of inbreeding and selection, may not withstand a massive wave of radical selection followed by yet more inbreeding. What happens when all or most individuals in a breed tum out to be "carriers" of the same defect? Breed gene pools represent only a fraction of the total canine species genome. Genetic diversity in purebreds is limited from the outset, by selection inherent in breed development and by the sometimes distressingly small numbers of founder animals when breed registries are first established. A gene pool is like a bank account - you cannot make withdrawals forever and never make a deposit. Yet the closed studbook system prohibits making more than one deposit! The fetish of "breed purity" demands that after the founder registrations the stud book must remain forever closed to new genetic input. When examined closely this concept of strict breed purity must be regarded as a racist ideal, similar in nature to the "scientific racism" promulgated by Hitler's Nazi party. Why do we denounce racism and eugenics on the human level, only to tum about and defend the selfsame ideals as the only decent norm for breeding dogs? Any description or defense of a project involving breeding across existing breed lines for practical purposes, such as the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon Club of America project, is met with aggressive rebuke. If every effort to restore genetic health, hardiness, or working ability through outcross breeding is to be condemned as a betrayal of the "purity of the breed," then the entire purebred dog concept may be doomed to failure through inbreeding depression, the general loss of vitality and viability. Those who are quick to stigmatise serious outcross programmes as "Foufons" and "crossbreds" betray their utter ignorance of population genetics, yet that ignorance still meets with general approbation. Too bad, because at this point, the application of population genetics principles may be the sole strategy that can possibly pull the purebred dog fancy out of its genetic dilemma. Genetic diversity is held to be essential to maintain species soundness and environmental fitness, but genetic diversity is what most purebreds seriously lack. Responsible scientific opinion now connects this lack of diversity with the canine genetic crisis. However much the racist mind may condemn the idea, there is but one way to restore lost genetic diversity in a population, and that is by new gene inflow - in other words, by outcross breeding. When will the purebred dog fancy awake from its dream of purified bloodstreams and allow the new gene inflow necessary to restore genetic health to our dogs? |
| I love all the articles wirtten by Jeffrey Bragg. He himself is breeding a genetically healthy population of Siberian Huskies.
There is a website you may be interested in, http://www.canine-genetics.com/ It is one of my favorites and has a wonderful list you can join as well. |
| Thanks |
Didn't find exactly what you're looking for? Search again here:
Custom Search
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|