please help.......
my name is kelly, and i have a fantastic mix breed rescue dog called Buddy (castrated). i have read up loads on dog psychology, training etc and really thought i knew my stuff. he is a fantastic dog and even though he had a horrific past he is a brilliant dog who i compete with. i worked through all of his issues successfully- separation anxiety, boisterous, destructive borderline food aggression borderline toy aggression list was endless and its been a real sucess story. even my 6 year old cousin can train him (supervised of course) anyway, on wednesday my boyfriend came home with two, 18month old old English Sheepdogs. his sister has owned them since they were 8weeks old. they are not neutered. 6 months ago she had to move home and so she originally asked her other brother to take care- just whilst she moved. 5 months later they were still there. they were never walked until this time. and even then they only had one or two walks a week with my boyfriends brother. she then decided that she "missed her puppies" and asked the brother for them back. he said that she could take them but if she did he wouldnt take them back again (as she still hadnt found a permanent place to live. and was talking about traveling for a year). she turned up at my boyfriends dads house, with three kids a husband, 2 dogs (as she took them anyway) and a lizard. now she has gone to france. my boyfriends dad didnt want the dogs to be left there as they were still not housetrained, (although there was only a couple of accidents here and they have been really good today) and said he would keep them but only in the garage. it was full of stuff so there was limited room. he works full time as a builder and commutes over an hour and a half to and from his work. he had to work away this weekend and the neighbor was letting them out twice a day. he said he felt so sorry for them he had to bring them home with him - i walk my dog three ties a day and train him, play with him etc frequently throughout the day. he said the dogs would love it here and they do. on the first night they cried and i explained to my boyfriend that we must not give any attention to them for crying. my house mate was already in bed and so when they woke her up she got up and shouted at them because she had work in the morning and they had "kept her up for hours". i explained to her in the morning that that attention - someone getting up could encourage it and s they hadnt met her, her being horrible to them in the middle of the night may increase their anxiety even more. she says she hates them, and has been quite horrible towards them. she likes my other dog as he is well behaved. last night i filled a washing up bottle with water and i squirted them on two occaisions- which did stop the howling but wont be effective forever. they howl even when i go for a wee, and my other dog has now started joining in. im so tired i dont know what else to do. the radio is on, i know they are just worried i wont come back after all the other people have done that to them. please help me get a nights sleep tonight. thanks. xx |
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| they probably only want to sleep in your room - these dogs are very attached to people. please don't use a spray bottle or other aversives on them becasue they are also very sensitive to negative training. if you can't keep them there are plenty people here who can connect you to rescue groups. |
| as i said the squirt bottle was a final resort. i used it twice and it was effective that night. i dont want to keep using it as i dont agree with negative training. all day i give a lot of positive training and believe mainly in this form of training. i do not believe in hitting or shouting at dogs and i felt at the time that this was the most effective way of a peaceful night. i would not continuously use it as this could just increase their anxiety when left at night.
i do not want the dogs to sleep in my room as i believe that this raises them within my pack. i have never allowed my dog up the stairs. he will only come up to wake me if i have over slept and he needs to go out. i cannot rehome these dogs as they do not belong to me. the other op-tion is that they return to the garage until my boyfriends sister returns home. i dont think this is fair as i can offer them an excellent home here. i feel that they are taking over - they have never been taught not to sit on furniture etc. although my dog had never been inside a house when i got him i worked through it all one on one. with three dogs in the house - two untrained it's really challenging and i would like to see it through. any ideas?? ive just taken them for a walk to try and wear them out a bit before bedtime. kongs dont work as they are not food orientated, even though i am only putting down food for 15mins three times a day (anything not eaten i take up and put back later) so they are not eating whenever they like. i have them in a routine, i dont make a fuss, i dont geet them or say goodbye or make a big deal of leaving them. right now i have closed the sitting room door so they can hear us chatting downstairs and they seem to be ok. any ideas on stopping the barking at 3am? my neighbor has a new baby - 2weeks old and has complained about the noise. |
| They obviously need to be rehomed. Old English Sheepdogs are not garage dogs. I don't understand the not letting them in your upstairs either. My dogs sleep in my room on the floor or in their crates or beds. It does not elevate them in my pack status...they don't sleep in my bed. I think whoever "owns" these dogs needs to consider rescue. They are much too young to be permanently disturbed by an owner who doesn't understand the breed. Please speak with the boyfriend about getting them into rescue. |
| oops. Sorry, I just reread the post and realize you are trying to help them. I think they still may need to be somewhere else if they are causing that much termoil...or else you definately have your work cut out for you. Neutering may calm them down a bit too. It is like having two big furry teenagers in the house. How likely is it the sister is ever going to take them back? Did she take her kids to France too? |
| I have to echo Kerry. Old English Sheepdogs get very attached to their humans. Add in the fact they have not had a permanent home in awhile, they are most likely a little anxious. Oliver wants to be with me at ALL times. I don't think I've gone to the bathroom by myself since we got him.
I don't believe sleeping in your room makes them head of the pack. Oliver sleeps in my room, but in the floor. I will also echo Kerry on the spray bottle. I realize it was a last resort, but honest, try them sleeping in your room, they just want to know their human is there. OES do not do well with negative training. Instead try positive reinforcement: a treat for a sit, a treat for a handshake, etc. It's worked very well for most of us on this board. Lastly, thank you for taking these two in. I know it takes a lot to go from 1 dog to 3. Remember that a tired dog is a good dog! And definitely join the forum. It's free, and we have TONS of experts on here with great advice. Oops, one more note. If you do feel too overwhelmed, please contact your nearest OES rescue organization-or let us here on the forum know, we can help you place these dolls. I realize you don't want to do that, but just so you know. |
| It sounds like you're doing all the right things and that you're trying hard to make it work. Unfortunately, the only remedy to all of this behavior is probably time. Time for them to settle in; time for them to trust you; time for them to get used to a routine.
I do agree that you might have better luck with less barking if you brought the crates closer to where you sleep but if you feel strongly in your methods of training, then I do understand that it may not be something you're comfortable with. I will tell you though, I used to have issues with my first OES going insane if he was crated downstairs at night. I thought he'd be okay since my other dog slept down there. After weeks of virtually no sleep, I threw in the towel and brought him upstairs. It was all he wanted. Everything improved after that-- house training, manners-- everything! Stress definitely doesn't aid in good behavior and if the dogs are upset, it may take a lot longer to get them to mesh with the family. They definitely are a velcro breed and need their people. I've had (and have) dogs of other breeds that could handle some distance but it's really in the nature of the OES to stick to you like glue. It's almost a breed characteristic so I would equate it to trying to work the herding instinct out of them. Might be close to impossible! Good luck! |
| Some things to consider...
- How much human interaction have these dogs had since their owner left them? - How much time did they spend confined to the garage each day? I have to wonder if they're simply in need of human interaction and a good routine. This breed is called "velcro" for a reason... most need human interaction. As you already know, the ideal approach is to ignore the whining and barking as long as they are not hungry, thirsty, in need of going to the bathroom, over-confined, ill, etc. Since this isn't possible, setting up two crates near the bedroom door is another option for a quiet night. This may not be what you want to do, but it may help these two dogs settle in and allow everyone to sleep. I'm certain you already know this but two 18 month old sheepies that are untrained, unaltered and have spent months in a garage is very sad. I have to question why this woman even owns them if she's burdening family members with their day to day care without firm plans to reclaim them in the near future. They aren't objects to be put in storage until you have time for them again. But that's not you... you're trying to help. Family members need to share with her how selfish she's being and that these two dogs need the stability of a loving full time family. Just my opinion. If you can't find a solution, contact your vet for a recommendation of a humane trainer who will come in and help you find a solution. |
| All four of our dogs sleep in the bedroom with us. there are no pack issues - but then I don't believe in dominance theory so maybe the dogs don't either. tow of our dogs even get up on the bed. |
| Wow - two undersocialized, untrained 18 mos old siblings. You're a saint.
I have a foster right now with pretty serious separation anxiety. She's only 10 mos old. She gets anxious when I leave - shoot, she gets anxious when she can't see me. I crate her during the day because I can't trust her if I'm not home. The first couple of nights I crated her in my bedroom. The first night she woke me up at 3 am barking (I thought she needed to potty, but she just wanted attention. The next night she either didn't bother or I slept through it (  )
By the third night I felt so badly about her having to spend that much time crated that I decided to risk her sleeping loose. She is fine as long as she is in the same room with me. My main bed dog (I have six OES of my own, two habitual bed hogs) wouldn't let her on the bed which is perfect because I don't want her getting used to that anyway, so she slept next to the bed. By last night she went into the crate that was still there on her own and slept there with the door open till morning by all appearances. Even crating them in your bedroom if you can overcome your reluctance to do so may buy you some peace. Then you can pick your battles from there. The way they've been shuffled around is a basic recipe for creating separation anxiety in the less secure versions of this velcro breed and as I'm sure you know anxiety isn't something a dog can easily turn on or off. They're vocalizing because the anxiety is causing them stress. Hopefully there is some kind of compromise you can come up with that can help alleviate that stress. Ideally, their owner realizes that the best thing for them is them being rehomed via rescue. You're an angel for what you're trying to do for them, but I live and breathe this breed, live and breathe training, and I've raised siblings and I'd still be in over my head in the situation you describe. Here's hoping you can get some help. Kristine |
| well last night i took them for a nice long walk, i left them in the kitchen for half an hour at a time, letting them out for half an hour at a time and then shutting them away. all the time making no fuss, paying no attention to any noise that they made. and all night there was not a squeak!!!
anyway i got up at 6, let them out and everything was fine. i fussed my own dog had had a play with him whilst the others are in the garden- he's missing my undivided love and attention. i went back to bed after feeding them, only when i got up again at 9 they had messed all over the floor. i acted a bit disappointed, sadly said "Oh NO!" cleaned up without scolding them, bleached and disinfected. then i put them back outside before taking them for a walk. Cosmo peed up the sofa right in front of me this evening. again i didnt tell him off just said No in a really disappointed way. Ive groomed them twice a day to try and assert some dominance. i feel really bad for them as i know that they are not being ignorant they just dont understand anything. although i do think that Oscar might have a hearing problem- im sure he is a bit deaf if not totally. once i pick up their insurance papers i will take them to the vet and get it checked. i tried so training with them today and they have learned "Stairs" (go down stairs) sit and bed today. so im really pleased they are so clever. my housemate said she's gonna move out if they stay.... |
wendy58 wrote: They obviously need to be rehomed. Old English Sheepdogs are not garage dogs. I don't understand the not letting them in your upstairs either. My dogs sleep in my room on the floor or in their crates or beds. It does not elevate them in my pack status...they don't sleep in my bed. I think whoever "owns" these dogs needs to consider rescue. They are much too young to be permanently disturbed by an owner who doesn't understand the breed. Please speak with the boyfriend about getting them into rescue.
i understand what you are saying but before you owned your first OES did you know the breed??? as well as you do now?? we all have to learn. i simply do not believe that dogs should be in the bedroom. i think that we can offer them a great home here, they get regular exercise, they get training, its just teething problems. i just gave the history so that people with a knowledge of the breed can help me to understand them a bit better. my dog had several problems which i worked through with him successfully, he was toy aggressive food aggressive boisterous, destructive, separation anxious etc etc. it was easier because i could work with him one on one. three dogs and two untrained is very hard and i was looking for support. |
kerry wrote: All four of our dogs sleep in the bedroom with us. there are no pack issues - but then I don't believe in dominance theory so maybe the dogs don't either. tow of our dogs even get up on the bed.
i can understand where youre coming from but my dog buddy- the boxer- he is a very dominant male, due to the way he was treated. he had aggression issues etc. and so keeping him down stairs as well as other methods of asserting myself as alpha- such as eating first, not letting him up on the sofa etc has really helped. i have made downstairs and he floor a fun place to be. for example; we only play if all four feet are on the floor- so he never jumps up people and he doesnt wreck my furnishings etc. im glad that that works for you but i really couldnt have my dogs - as much as i love them- to sleep in my room. i feel that dogs should have boundaries and consistency. it would be unfair to buddy to allow these dogs upstairs and not him, and it would confuse him if he was suddenly allowed up. i was told by my re homing center to read up on dog psychology when i got buddy. many of these books supported the theory of the Wolf pack. i like to think that if i am more intelligent than my dogs, then its easier for me to speak dog than for them to learn english. i compete with buddy in obedience and agility now, the theories i applied have really worked for me in this case. |
6Girls wrote: Some things to consider... - How much human interaction have these dogs had since their owner left them? feeding and being let into the garden. 6Girls wrote: - How much time did they spend confined to the garage each day? they were let out twice a day for half an hour, and feeding times. 6Girls wrote: I have to wonder if they're simply in need of human interaction and a good routine. This breed is called "velcro" for a reason... most need human interaction. totally agree with you there!!! routine is good- my own fault this morning for breaking it after lack of sleep 6Girls wrote: As you already know, the ideal approach is to ignore the whining and barking as long as they are not hungry, thirsty, in need of going to the bathroom, over-confined, ill, etc.
Since this isn't possible, setting up two crates near the bedroom door is another option for a quiet night. This may not be what you want to do, but it may help these two dogs settle in and allow everyone to sleep. They aren't objects to be put in storage until you have time for them again. But that's not you... you're trying to help. Family members need to share with her how selfish she's being and that these two dogs need the stability of a loving full time family. so true. i cant deny that she loves them though... i think its just been ignorance. one of her client had puppies and they are cute so she thought she'd get them. the wrong reasons but she really does love them just shows it in the wrong ways. she's never hit, starved them or anything. she lost her house- for a year after an event- so she has dealt with it as she could at the time. her dad didnt want them but he isnt cruel he just doesnt have time for unhouse trained dogs in his house as he works full time. |
kelly sanger wrote: kerry wrote: All four of our dogs sleep in the bedroom with us. there are no pack issues - but then I don't believe in dominance theory so maybe the dogs don't either. tow of our dogs even get up on the bed. i can understand where youre coming from but my dog buddy- the boxer- he is a very dominant male, due to the way he was treated. he had aggression issues etc. and so keeping him down stairs as well as other methods of asserting myself as alpha- such as eating first, not letting him up on the sofa etc has really helped. i have made downstairs and he floor a fun place to be. for example; we only play if all four feet are on the floor- so he never jumps up people and he doesnt wreck my furnishings etc. im glad that that works for you but i really couldnt have my dogs - as much as i love them- to sleep in my room. i feel that dogs should have boundaries and consistency. it would be unfair to buddy to allow these dogs upstairs and not him, and it would confuse him if he was suddenly allowed up. i was told by my re homing center to read up on dog psychology when i got buddy. many of these books supported the theory of the Wolf pack. i like to think that if i am more intelligent than my dogs, then its easier for me to speak dog than for them to learn english. i compete with buddy in obedience and agility now, the theories i applied have really worked for me in this case. Boxers and OES are probably on opposite ends of the personality continuim. I also think you will find that wolf pack and dominance theory are outdated and the best of the current scientific research does not support it, if it ever did. I know theories come and go and we do have to do what works. I want to parrot what Kristine said and congradulate you on trying to do what is best for the dogs. It won't be easy - I raised two unrelated (now three year old) OES together and I have my share of failed attempts at training etc etc If you want to do some more research read some Suzanne Clothier (who said OES are among the hardest dogs to train because it is hard to read them and they can go from zero to sixty in no time) but has wonderful relationship training advice. Good luck. |
I do not know about this, but do you know where they came from? From what I have seen on the form, the breeder might want to know about this. This is unfair to the dogs and you and your boyfriend's family. Unless the sister was on fire there was no reason to dump them on her family  |
| I just want to wish you luck and say again you are a saint These are wonderful dogs and should be given a chance. Hopefully in time things will work out Please keep the folks on this forum updated they can offer you years of OES experience. I too have 5 dogs The OES are bed hogs and my labs and GSD sleep on their beds in my room. I have no dominance issues as I am the alpha here:) You need to do what is in your comfort zone but need to have knowledge if this breed. I had an OES 35 yrs ago and have had one for 3 years and just got another (wild child female) and I am still learning . You are right we all had to start somewhere unless we grew up in an OES family. You are trying to help these dogs. Altering may be a good idea if you can talk the owner into that. |
liz rodes wrote: I do not know about this, but do you know where they came from? From what I have seen on the form, the breeder might want to know about this. This is unfair to the dogs and you and your boyfriend's family. Unless the sister was on fire there was no reason to dump them on her family
true the breeeder would probably want to know what is going on here - but doubtful they will find out. |
| i got no idea what breeder they came from...... anyway things have really improved. they are sleeping all night in the kitchen- we realized that foxes in the garden wee upsetting them and so we leave a light on in the kitchen and the blind up- no foxes less barking some moaning for a night or two and now they are a good as gold.
got them on the BARF diet now and this has really improved their condition already and they seem less hyperactive but have better endurance if that makes sense?? the training is coming along nicely- great recalls now i'd say 99% perfect, they turn on a sixpence to get back to me as soon as i call "Close" - come wasnt working so i changed the command. they have learned "Sit" and "Off" as well as to go down stairs on command. my lodger is moving out on sunday because she hates them so much. but never mind. its a shame but i couldnt live with anyone who is cruel to animals anyway (i found out today that she keeps her cat in a cat box if it wakes her up in the night.) |
| Kelly, that is great news! Glad to hear things are going so much better for you.
Please keep us updated on the progress! |
| Great for you!!! Good riddance to a lodger who can't stand your animals. I hope you find another soon who loves animals if you still need one. I am glad to hear they are coming along so well. You won't want them to ever go back.
So sorry if i was hard on you at first...I got mixed up with the post and who was keeping them where. You are doing a great thing and we all applaud your efforts. Keep us posted on the progress. We love happy endings!!!! |
| its amazing how quickly they are learning... people used to shout at them a lot but i never do that. i ignore unwanted behaviour and praise up or reward the good. if buddy - the boxer- does good but the others dont he will be the only one to get a treat... so they just copy what he did!
there's been a bit of pee in the house but no big messes anymore and ive slowly been bringing them onto the BARF diet- which really has improved their energy levels- rather than being short sharp spurts of hyperactivity they seem to be at a constant level all day. they've been turning into really lovely dogs, i make sure we're all consistent. im thinking about stealing my room mates cat and dropping it off at the cat rescue and telling her it must have escaped...... anyway, thanks to you all for your support... any ideas on some games i can play with them? they dont seem too interested or very good at the hide and seek the toy games play with buddy. and they havent been taught to retrieve a ball or anything... |
| good to hear things are going well.
As herding dogs though they will always have bursts of energy its hard wired - one of the things that makes them both liveable and sometimes not |
| Another OES novice here, we don't allow our animals upstairs.
Archie has absolutely no issues sleeping in the utility room at night with the cats (they normally steal his crate which is left permenantly open) The bedroom no bedroom situation is a matter of personal choice, more to do with the owner than the dog I would suspect. Kelly, are you hoping to keep these two dogs? because if the owner just expects to come back and take them away it will be heart breaking for you. They are most wonderful animals. |
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