Neutering????
When is the best time to neuter a puppy??? I had always thought at 6 months and that is what the vet suggests but, I kind of need more opinions from OES folks! I want to do it before he has any major testosterone changes....if that is possible. Everybody else in the house is altered so. there are no worries there BUT, I would like to have him done as soon as it is safest for him..... |
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| oh this was a big topic of consideration at a seminar I was at this weekend. Canine hormone level progressions are different than any other mammal according to the presenter.
there are only three behviors that neutering will change and none of them are the ones you think (other than some reduction in marking) and some studies report increased sexual activities from early spay neuters. here is one article I just found. my seminar papers are at home: http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html 6 months is way too early to spay/neuter due to health considerations. IMHO |
| I tried to wait a year, but Nigel started challenging Bella a bit more than I was comfortable with at 8 1/2 months...so that was when he was neutered. |
| I've had pups that came neutered. I'm not in favor of way early neutering if it can be avoided. (for example shelters will not adopt until the dog is neutered) The dogs grow too tall and I'm not sure structurally they are the same.
Rememer even if they do have testosterone in their system, with neutering it will disappear. Don't confuse puppy with adult antics. |
| My vet had said it's good to wait until a year UNLESS there are aggression issues. She said though you can't always turn back the clock on some aggressive behavior so neutering earlier may be a good decision. There are possible pros and cons to both choices... |
We aren't having any issues with Finn...he is a little angel 
I just want to do what is best, he is only 12 weeks so we have time to decide. |
I KNOW he's a little angel, Kathy 
We never had any problems before 1 year either so that's what we're aiming for. |
| Nigel wasn't the problem. I have Bella who came to me last year. She is 4 now, and was spayed a year ago. She has "bitch" aggression and I am her 4th home. I wanted to make sure they could live in peace, and Nigel was just being too much of a boy at 8 1/2 months. He was winding her up and I wanted to avoid any problems. Luckily, he calmed down a bit after that and we have a happy, silly sheepie home for all.
I would wait a year if you can...but I think (4-6months) early spay/neutering is a disaster. |
SheepieBoss wrote: I've had pups that came neutered. I'm not in favor of way early neutering if it can be avoided. (for example shelters will not adopt until the dog is neutered) The dogs grow too tall and I'm not sure structurally they are the same.
Rememer even if they do have testosterone in their system, with neutering it will disappear. Don't confuse puppy with adult antics. I wish I could remember the exact sequence with the testosterone but in neutered male canines it does not disappear the way you expect, they are (supossedly) different than other mammals. |
| We are just waiting to see how it goes.....
I just want to TRY to ensure that he and Quin stay buddies forever  |
kerry wrote: oh this was a big topic of consideration at a seminar I was at this weekend. Canine hormone level progressions are different than any other mammal according to the presenter.
there are only three behviors that neutering will change and none of them are the ones you think (other than some reduction in marking) and some studies report increased sexual activities from early spay neuters. here is one article I just found. my seminar papers are at home: http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html 6 months is way too early to spay/neuter due to health considerations. IMHO Interesting....so thinking of Murhy our very TALL boy I wonder if this is the cause???? I never knew when he was neutered as it wasn't in his records but, finally a bell went off 
Call the vet that he went to before we got him 
Murphy was about two weeks shy of 6 months when he was altered. |
| In terms of spaying I had read that a first heat greatly increases a bitch's chance of cancer later on down the line, and spaying before that first wave of hormones was beneficial. With that in mind, the suggested date for spaying was 6 months of age. |
| Now I'm worried...my vet (there's 5 of them and thought of as the best) say 6 months for Tibetan Terrier) as the longer you put it off the more difficult the recovery is for the dog. Rosie was 7 mths. and did great recovering and now at 8 has always been in great health (knock on wood)! I sure don't want to do anything to hurt Maggie and I'm not worried about the hormones...just want to do what's best for her. Is it different for small dogs? My Daisey (OES) was 6 mths. and she certainly wasn't a tall OES...really rather short compared to most. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: In terms of spaying I had read that a first heat greatly increases a bitch's chance of cancer later on down the line, and spaying before that first wave of hormones was beneficial. With that in mind, the suggested date for spaying was 6 months of age.
absolutely untrue. spaying before the first heat minimally decreases the chance of mamarry cancer which is slow growing and easy to treat. it greatly increases the chances of bone cancer and other cancers, spay incontinence and behavioral issues. the 6 month date is because it is easier for the vets plain and siimple, |
Donner's Mom wrote: We are just waiting to see how it goes.....
I just want to TRY to ensure that he and Quin stay buddies forever in tact males and neutered males can be friend s- but the studies are now showing that it is the neutered males status withing the canine world (think third class citizen) that causes the trouble. |
kerry wrote: Donner's Mom wrote: We are just waiting to see how it goes..... I just want to TRY to ensure that he and Quin stay buddies forever in tact males and neutered males can be friend s- but the studies are now showing that it is the neutered males status withing the canine world (think third class citizen) that causes the trouble. Well, that explains my lone butthead, Che. His intact brothers are much more civilized.  
Kathy, don't overthink it. Hormones do not make a dog aggressive. There is no magic age were the hormones kick in and now you're stuck with an aggressive dog. Poor breeding does that. Poor socialization does that. Being intact does not cause that. Certainly not in our breed. It's a myth that even some vets are buying into. Mind-boggling. Unless your neutered boy has other dog problems, don't presume Finn will or Finn being intact will cause a problem. The sweetest OES I've ever known were all inevitably intact males. Go figure. They were also inevitably wellbred. You think there's a connection...? So, the behavioral stuff aside, you need to be thinking health. Ideally, the minimum for me in a male is after the growth plates have closed (front - some can remain open till they are three years old) so say 14-18 mos to be safe, 12 mos being certainly better than 6 mos. All told, there is not a single good reason to neuter a male if you can keep them from breeding willy-nilly, or in Finn's case, at all, unlike bitches where you have to weigh the pros and cons, except that it's socially unacceptable to own an intact animal. Breathe deeply and set your sights on a year and see how you feel about it then (*that's my vet's guideline for large breed pets) If it makes you feel better, neuter him at 6 mos old. Or shortly thereafter. But not before. 6 mos probably doesn't explain Murphy's size. Maybe a little but not THAT much. His pedigree must. Hmmm  Gotta meet some of his relatives
Kristine |
Quote: All told, there is not a single good reason to neuter a male if you can keep them from breeding willy-nilly
Both Finn and Bumble have an undescended testicle. (Have both of Finn's now dropped, Kathy?) Surgical neutering is advised in these dogs to help prevent cancer or torsion. Does the 12 or 14-18 month age range also hold true for these dogs? |
| We neutered both of our male sheepies at 5 months, with no adverse side effects in growth that we could discern. Both boys grew to be stocky, and square, and over 100 lbs.
Quincy was a monorchid, so he required a neuter and a spay to get the undescended testicle out of his abdomen. We just wanted to do it as early as possible. With Oscar being deaf, we didn't want to risk him ever "accidentally" fathering a litter. Laurie and Oscar |
6Girls wrote: Quote: All told, there is not a single good reason to neuter a male if you can keep them from breeding willy-nilly Both Finn and Bumble have an undescended testicle. Have both of Finn's now dropped, Kathy? Surgical neutering is advised in these dogs to help prevent cancer or torsion. Does the 12-14 month age range also hold true for these dogs? That's a question for an - educated - vet due to the very real cancer risk in the undescended testicle. And by that I mean probably a vet who actually knows something about reproduction - i.e. usually a breeder vet - fortunately your breeder would know one 
A friend had her agility golden's undescended testicle removed at about 18 mos old. She left the descended one on, not because the dog will be bred (he won't - it's generally genetic, though not the worst thing in the world. Just not something you want to perpetuate), but for health reasons. In a pet, you'd remove both of them and I know a number of people who have nonetheless waited for the dog to mature. Safe answer: ask your puppies' breeders. Mind you, there's still time for your guys' balls to drop, so it could be a non-issue. Honestly, when it comes to these kinds of things, not all vets are created equal. Don't they teach them anything about canine reproduction in vet school these days other than how to surgically remove those organs? I adore my holistic/chiro vet, but if I tell him one of my girls' was just in season he actually BLUSHES
Too cute. Not useful, but very cute. Fortunately, he's excellent in his specialty, as is my regular vet in hers. 
Kristine |
| I forgot to mention that....
I think Finn just has one still but, who can tell with all that wiggling |
| I had Beaureguard neutered at six months, too. But, if I had known then what I know now about the increased risk for bone cancer and how much safer it is if you wait until their growth plates have closed, I definitely would have waited until he was 18 months old. Hind sight... |
Mad Dog wrote: The sweetest OES I've ever known were all inevitably intact males. Go figure. They were also inevitably wellbred. You think there's a connection...? Couldn't agree more, Kristine. So, the behavioral stuff aside, you need to be thinking health. Ideally, the minimum for me in a male is after the growth plates have closed (front - some can remain open till they are three years old) so say 14-18 mos to be safe, 12 mos being certainly better than 6 mos. Again, can't agree more. I have seen lots of growth issues with those neutered early in our breed. There are alot more companion vets out there than breeder vets, unfortunately. That's why you hear so much about early spay neuter. They figure the majority of the people are going to do nothing but have the dog be a household pet. Some may go thru a basic obedience class at the most. Luckily I have a breeder vet (German Shepherd dogs & Rottweilers). He looks at things from a different angle than most vets whether you are a a companion owner or a breeder. We are looking at all things here....growth patterns & other health issue. Please consider them all & don't let anyone talk you into neutering early "just because". |
| Ditto to all of the above, if there is not a problem with undescended testies then better to wait till well over 12 months. 18 months is better when the major part of the growth is over.
Darth nonsense about spaying a bitch at 6 months, may reduce chances of mammery cancer but does not stop them 100% maybe getting it later in life, reagrdless of what age they have been spayed, early spaying leads to other maybe future problems with the girls. Incontinence problems earlier, grreater risk there, that you might have to deal with for a lifetime with medication, bone cancer is higher, behavioural problems etc the risks are higher with early spaying, just a shame with bitches of larger breeds they can't have their first heat to help them mature and develope then spay them, Vets advocate 6 months for the girls of larger breeds, due to it being easier for them at that age, but most vets don't know the longer term consequences of spaying a Larger breed of dog early, it is also cheaper to spay them at that time as they are still wee girls so not such a major thing for the vets to do then when older. Not such an emphasis here on the boys here, neutering, even pet boys unless there is a problem
God made them that way so why remove them? It does not change who they are, if they are agressive beforehand removing them won't change who they are, the only thing with neutering is less chance much later in life of Prostrate problems but again not all intact males have prostrate problems later in life either. My first male lived to a ripe old age intact. Unless there is an undecended problem with the boys then why is there a need to do it ? I can understand the bitches as a pet one no one wants to deal with a 3 week heat, the mess, blood, smell and all the hormones from hell that happen, but I can't understand the emphasis on Males and removing the dangles is such a priority.  |
| I pulled out my notes last night from the seminar and here are the only behavioral changes (according to Susan Clothier) of neutering a male dog. (okay even I know that was redundant):
1) reduction in male/male aggression (BUT as she said this is a training issue not a hormonal issue in the end) 2) less likely to wonder (but we are smart enough to also know fences reduce that risk as well) 3) Up to 50% (that means the most you get is a 50% ) reduction in tendency to mark. At this point I would most like not castrate a male dog I owned - unless there was some other reason to - I may actually talk to the vet about a vasectomy in the future because the hormone levels remain where they should. (I may video tape that conversation )
When it comes to a female, the overwhelming indications for some breeds is they should never be spayed - however OES where not in the study group so I am still reading on this topic and I love my intact bitch just the way she is - well with some more training |
| Thanks for your insight, Lisa. My vet said to wait until he's 6-8 months to see if it might yet make an appearance. Our contract says he must be neutered by 1 year so we'll hold out as long possible. If we're responsible and there isn't a problem with the one that hasn't come done, maybe we can get an time extension?
I've been hearing more about undescended testicles in OES puppies in the past few months... is this a problem that frequents the breed? We were given the option to choose a different pup but we had our hearts set on "Batman". We wanted a laid back boy and he is everything we could have hoped for in temperament. Wondering if maybe staying with mama and his littermates until 11 weeks had curbed a lot of the mouthing behavior. If we ever get another female, I think we will wait until after the first heat cycle. We haven't had any incontinence problems... except for Panda with her bladder defect and ph problem. But I'd like to see if by chance low thyroid might be avoided. A lot more probably depends upon the genetic heritage of the dog though... |
| Jaci, I wondered the same thing about the prevalence of mono/cryptorchidism in the breed. As I mentioned, our first sheepie, Quincy was a monorchid when he was neutered, but he came to us at 12 weeks with neither testicle descended. (One came down when he was 4 months old.) Out of his litter of three males, all had at least one testicle undescended, so all were let go as companion animals, as they could not be shown for confirmation. In Oscar's litter of three (one female and two males), Oscar's brother was a monorchid. Same breeder.
From what I have read, it is a genetic trait that can be passed on. As far as I can tell from Oscar's and Quincy's records, they do not share any common ancenstry, as least back 4 generations, which is probably not much in the dog world.
Maybe some of the breeders or folks active in the show world out there can help us with this question. Laurie and Oscar |
6Girls wrote: Thanks for your insight, Lisa. My vet said to wait until he's 6-8 months to see if it might yet make an appearance. Our contract says he must be neutered by 1 year so we'll hold out as long possible. If we're responsible and there isn't a problem with the one that hasn't come done, maybe we can get an time extension? Does your contract have a consequence if you don't? I've been hearing more about undescended testicles in OES puppies in the past few months... is this a problem that frequents the breed? Both my boys had an undescended testicle at 8 weeks. (OES and Newf) both came down by 15 weeks. We were given the option to choose a different pup but we had our hearts set on "Batman". We wanted a laid back boy and he is everything we could have hoped for in temperament. Wondering if maybe staying with mama and his littermates until 11 weeks had curbed a lot of the mouthing behavior. I was told by one breeder that dogs should stay at least 10 weeks - no body seems to do that much now though. If we ever get another female, I think we will wait until after the first heat cycle. We haven't had any incontinence problems... except for Panda with her bladder defect and ph problem. But I'd like to see if by chance low thyroid might be avoided. My low thyroid is a male. He was neutered at 13 months. Is there a connection in the research? (as little of that that there is) |
kerry wrote: I was told by one breeder that dogs should stay at least 10 weeks - no body seems to do that much now though.
Kerry - I think a lot of breeders consider 10 weeks a minimum. They may make exceptions to experienced homes especially, and it's considered perfectly acceptable to let puppies go at 8 weeks, but personally I feel very strongly that those extra couple of weeks are critical for learning how to be a dog (i.e. how to relate to other dogs). After that, it's a trade-off. They still benefit from what they learn from their littemates and mom (and others), but now it comes down to how big is the litter and how much individual attention can you really give them, because after 10 weeks they really need a lot of one on one. But they also need to continue their other-dog education, which is why I hate to see a puppy go to a home where it will be the only dog or even only have one other dog in the household unless the home is really dog savvy, which usually means heavily into training and coming up with creative ways to get that "other dog" education in. Kristine |
| Kerry mine went over a 4 week period starting with 2 at 8 weeks, those went to experienced OES homes, two weeks later at 10 weeks the next 2 left then at 12 weeks another 2 then we were down to our two we kept. Made it easier for Brie the babies going slowly over a period of a month. Made it good for the puppies too as the numbers grew less they adjusted too.
I can't imagine sending the bulk of them at 8 weeks of age to their new homes. As they get past that age of 8 weeks it does get harder with the ones left as they do need more one on one indvidual attention. The ones that stayed till 12 weeks started them on the leads and started to do more training with them individually and started seperating them from the other 2 so when they went it was not so traumatic for them to leave the nest. Just traumatic for me having them longer and then sending them off 
I wonder too about the problem with undecended testicles in the breed and how prevelant that problem is? I think everyone who breeds are aware it can be a problem in the breed and had heard of someone who has had the problem. With Brie popping 6 boys in the litter, FIRST major vet check Priority was DANGLES were there so that is the first thing I asked the Vet to check, can you feel two Mr. Vet on each of the boys. YAY all there. |
| According to the last OESCA health survey, of the 580 male OES surveyed, 37 of them, or 6.38% experienced "failure of testicle(s) to descend" No breakdown between one or both, but it really doesn't matter because both cases are a problem.
That seems high to me, but I don't have any numbers (e.g. other breeds) to compare it to offhand, so I can't really say. If I have some time tomorrow I can look up a few breeds for comparisons unless someone else feels inspired? I don't know if the European and Australian OES clubs do health surveys? Lisa? I rarely heard about it ten years ago, but then I have to ask myself: was I paying attention? Lately it seems like I hear about it all the time, but then I have to ask myself: am I just more tuned in?
If you have one or even several much-used males who produce it, it can probably spread pretty quickly throughout a population. Mad's sire produced it with multiple bitches including a later/repeat litter with her dam, so when I bred Mad I wondered if that would come back to haunt me. I went completely away from the American OES population - or as far as way as you can get (though not for that reason) - and all four of her boys not only had'em, but most obviously had'em at a younger age than her breeder typically sees'em. Hm.
Hopefully that question was retained on this upcoming survey and we can do a comparison over time at least. If there's been a large increase, and we'd need to isolate populations as best we can because this survey will be more inclusive demographically, I'd say we really have to start worrying. Kristine |
| We're scheduled to have Charlie neutered in two weeks; at that point, he'll be just past 7 months old. After reading this thread, we've started rethinking it. We called his breeder, who we have a contract with to have him neutered by 8 months, and asked her opinion on waiting until he's a bit older. She wants us to get our vet's opinion in writing and then she'll take it to her vet for his opinion and then get back to us.
She mentioned intact dogs are more prone to barking a lot more than neutered dogs. What are some of the differences you all have seen? What do you recommend? We need to get this figured out pretty soon... |
Charlie's Fam wrote: We're scheduled to have Charlie neutered in two weeks; at that point, he'll be just past 7 months old. After reading this thread, we've started rethinking it. We called his breeder, who we have a contract with to have him neutered by 8 months, and asked her opinion on waiting until he's a bit older. She wants us to get our vet's opinion in writing and then she'll take it to her vet for his opinion and then get back to us.
She mentioned intact dogs are more prone to barking a lot more than neutered dogs. What are some of the differences you all have seen? What do you recommend? We need to get this figured out pretty soon... I have a few neutered boys that will "bark to differ" with that! |
Quote: Jaci, I wondered the same thing about the prevalence of mono/cryptorchidism in the breed. Thanks for sharing your experience with this condition, Laurie. I had mentioned to my husband to ask if both of Bumble's had dropped but I don't think he thought it would be a problem. Then Lisa said to make sure both had dropped. Bumble had his vet check the day before flying to us and sure enough he had a retained testicle. But I think it's only fair to know this BEFORE you buy or adopt because it means a more extensive neuter surgery... not that it would have changed our minds but we were of course a little disappointed upon hearing the news. I had toyed with the idea of showing him, even checked into handler's classes, but it probably won't be an option. All we really wanted was a great companion so we're thrilled. I'll need some hand holding though when it comes time to neuter him  Quote: Does your contract have a consequence if you don't? I may be assuming inaccurately but I think we could ask for an extension on the neuter time if we truly wanted to wait until 18 months for health reasons. I don't believe there is a consequence indicated but that's moot because we will uphold our end of the agreement to the letter. Quote: I was told by one breeder that dogs should stay at least 10 weeks - no body seems to do that much now though. I just did not expect a puppy that wouldn't be biting on everything and everyone. He does want to jump once when first greeting a lady that works with us but I tell him off and he sits leaning against her and lets her love him up... though he does want to nibble on her watch band He's just different than any pup I've experienced before so I wondered if it might have something to do with the age he left mama and littermates. The other dogs are much more tolerant of him too because he's not biting everyone. My close-to-11-year-old BC-mix, probably considered the true alpha dog in the pack, played with him for a long time the past couple of days and never once had to discipline him for being to rough... though I'm concerned my old gal might have pulled something in her back or leg. I'm keeping her quiet now.Quote: My low thyroid is a male. He was neutered at 13 months. Is there a connection in the research? (as little of that that there is) Not the research directly but rather this article that mentions it. 5 dogs out of 6 with low thyroid just isn't normal. Again, maybe it's genetics but all were spayed at around 6 months. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24597888/ Quote: ...Studies have found that spayed or neutered dogs are at increased risks for problems including certain cancers, thyroid disorder, incontinence and some of the same behavior issues that the surgeries are said to prevent... |
| Not having noticed any medical concerns in the short time Archie has been neutered, the one thing I can confirm is that he is still the same barkyboy he was before.
It is quite interesting to see the some of the "expert evidence" from the other side of the pond. I have seen positive proof of neutering calming a previously aggressive towards all male humans but its owner in my brother in laws dog. No doubt there is evidence to the contrary! But I have taken the responsibility on my shoulders to Neuter Archie, he was getting a bit carried away when playing off leash with some of the local female canine population, and not all owners confine them when they are in season, which is irresponsible IMHO. He is a pet, I was contractually not allowed to breed from him, and I was never going to show him anyway, in addition we have suffered complaints about him being intact causing aggression in other peoples dogs (which I believe was their problem not Archies). Anyhow what is done is done. Reading on this subject here I could be forgiven if I were to feel guilty or paranoid about what I have done to my boy, the various vets (differing practices) I spoke to all recommended it for him even after expressing my concerns over subsequent possible health issues (I obviously realise that to them it is money), but I don't regret it, will I come to regret this? only time will tell. |
Mad Dog wrote: I don't know if the European and Australian OES clubs do health surveys? Lisa?
I rarely heard about it ten years ago, but then I have to ask myself: was I paying attention? Lately it seems like I hear about it all the time, but then I have to ask myself: am I just more tuned in? Hopefully that question was retained on this upcoming survey and we can do a comparison over time at least. If there's been a large increase Kristine Not at the moment with the health surveys Kristine, but think it is well overdue for one on the breed here. Like the registers on HD and Eyes, closed and general data is available to OES clubs for a general consensus on anything cropping up in the breed on a regular basis, hopefully one day that will be an open register for all to peruse. I just asked the question on Undescended testies, like you never gave it much thought but am more aware of it in the last several years after hearing of others producing this problem and maybe being more aware that it can happen in the boys and mostly over the years just having sheepie girls rule the house and not noticing much on the boy side of things and the extras that come along with them . So hopefully the newest health survey does retain this question to see if it is becoming more of a common problem in the males of the breed. Be interested to see other large breeds surveys and if that is cropping up more or wether it afflicts small breeds as well
Archies Slave don't feel guilty, you know your boy more then anyone else, most vets opinions are based on convenience and of course the dollars as to getting them done earlier then all the data that is coming out on OES and the maybe problems that could be associated with earlier de-sexing. Just annoys me vets push it from 4 months onwards. It should be a decision based on Factual information on the breed rather then a vet that knows nothing of larger breeds and the long term consequences that might occur doing them too early.
Interesting conversation I had with a vet 2 years ago, we were away at the farm and Brie was unwell, closest vet was 45 minutes away in a bigger town. Turns out the vet had just immigrated from the UK, was rapt to see an OES, treated a lot of OES in the UK, asked if she was de-sexed and I said NO, he then said this is one breed especially in the bitches that should be done later and letting the girls have that first heat must help the breed and the girls with no early incontinence problems. He had treated plenty of OES Bitches de-sexed early without that first heat in the UK with leak problems from 2-3 years onwards. Asked about my other girls, said no they were not spayed till over 6 as was showing them, asked about the old girls did I have any Incontinence problems said no to most of that only with my last sheepie girl, due to backend failure at 13 plus she did develope a slight dribble. So I thought that was interesting on the Bitches in the breed. From a vet that had years of experience with the breed in the Mother land, go figure he ends up here in Aussie Land and I get to meet him in a small country town in the middle of no where 
Jaci that is interesting about the Thyroid wonder if early de-sexing does play a role there as well as the possible Hereditry factor not letting there entire systems develope to maturity before de-sexing |
Quote: but I don't regret it, will I come to regret this? only time will tell. I don't think you'll ever regret having Archie neutered. My comments were based on experience with the high number of low thyroid spayed females... maybe there is no actual correlation. I'm the type that wants to see for myself if different approaches might make a positive difference in the health of my dogs. Bumble is my first ever boy puppy so I'm in foreign territory He's the first male dog I've had since I was a kid so I'm trying to get different opinions early on. The funny thing is, Kaytee, my severely vision challenged OES with a cleft palate/lip is the only one who does not have low thyroid. She is also one that had coming-of-age aggression problems. She was spayed at around 6 months of age too. She would jump on the backs of Emma and Darby and bite them (never drew blood). She was also eager to jump into any skirmish. We had a trainer come in to help us and we also began to watch for the things that would trigger a reaction in her. It took Kaytee learning that the others could bite back... Emma and Darby never would but Maggie and Meesha did a couple of times. Meesha, my Schipperke or Cattledog mix, broke skin once and gave her a puncture wound on her ear flap. This was back in January and ever since this she hasn't instigated a fight and no longer challenges Emma and Darby. Did this have anything to do with early spay? I doubt it. I think it was from over-protecting the poor little sheepie (HA! I'll never do THAT again... treat them like any other dog! ) and also simply her disposition... her mama didn't like the other females in her pack.Quote: Interesting conversation I had with a vet 2 years ago
An insightful conversation... I bet it was surprising and exciting to unexpectedly come across someone so experienced with the breed... |
| Oh my I love the new avatar Jaci......
That boy is so darn CUTE! (well, that is way off the subject....) |
| I must admit to not being "in the know" on the neutering issue. But I have had Tasker, and every dog I have ever owned (male) neutered at around 7-8 months without any problems.
My only comment would be that it is around 5-6 months many dogs start to "mark", a habit which is difficult to break once established. Ty started marking early, around 5 months. We waited to neuter til he was almost 8 months and have had difficulty with marking behavior ever since. Ty is a small breed so perhaps that doens't translate to OES. Tasker was neutered at 7 months and I have not had any difficulties. |
Archies Slave wrote: he was getting a bit carried away when playing off leash with some of the local female canine population, and not all owners confine them when they are in season, which is irresponsible IMHO. I would have to agree there! Same thing with people who let their dogs get up in the faces of other dogs and then complain when the other dog reacts. He is a pet, I was contractually not allowed to breed from him, and I was never going to show him anyway, in addition we have suffered complaints about him being intact causing aggression in other peoples dogs (which I believe was their problem not Archies). According to studies the problem is caused by the social status of the neutered male - face it canines did develop castration, we did it and interfered with their social structure and now try to blame the in tact dogs - how human of us Anyhow what is done is done. Reading on this subject here I could be forgiven if I were to feel guilty or paranoid about what I have done to my boy, the various vets (differing practices) I spoke to all recommended it for him even after expressing my concerns over subsequent possible health issues (I obviously realise that to them it is money), but I don't regret it, will I come to regret this? only time will tell. I don't think any of us are questioning anybody's decisions - just discussing issues with those contemplating whether/when they should do this - I neutered Morgan at what I now think is too young an age - as you say it is what it is. |
Quote: (well, that is way off the subject....)
hehehe Thanks Kathy. http://oesusa.com/SomeoneMustHaveSeenFinn.jpg  |
kerry wrote: I don't think any of us are questioning anybody's decisions - just discussing issues with those contemplating whether/when they should do this - I neutered Morgan at what I now think is too young an age - as you say it is what it is.
I feel the same way about neutering Che at a year. Then again, he is a little horndog and the thought of him getting one of his sisters pregnant
I've lived with a number of other intact males and this was never an issue. They'd look to me: "can I have her?" "No" Oh"  Che the ball-less one is still mounting his sister 17 mos post surgery, would still be marking if I hadn't explained that this is unacceptable, gets in other dogs' faces in a way NONE of my dogs have ever done, especially the intact ones - who to me have always seemed more mentally balanced than the balless wonderboy - is barky in a way that none of them are, and in general is not my idea of an ideal OES. And I can say that - I bred him. But the bottom line is I weighed the pros and cons, that was my decision and though observing the results may affect my decision-making in the future, I won't second guess what is. I did what I felt was right at the time. Period.
And that's what this entire discussion comes down to. Sure, we've been fed a lot of half truths about the benefits of castrating our animals to make us feel better about what is actually a population control initiative, whilst ignoring the risks and potential disadvantages for the individual dog. And it's presented as a panacea for every behavioral "ill" known to dog, though it clearly is not. Still, it has its place - there's no question about that. When you start looking more closely at the research what it comes down to is this: there is no one size fits all. You have to evaluate the individual dog, weigh the risks/benefits as they apply to that dog, your life style, your obligations, and then make as educated a decision as you can. Jaci - you don't have 5 out of 6 hypothyroid dogs because you spayed them at six months. You had statistically what it probably bad luck combined with the fact that you actually CHECK for these things. You can safely presume they were already predisposed. Would they not have come back with thyroid problems, or had it present later if they were spayed later? Possibly. But in the grand scheme of things you'll never know for sure and the possibility doesn't invalidate the decisions you made. When we know that many of the issues that are affected by desexing our dogs - especially pre-maturity - are issues that rank very high on the list of major problems in our breed (CHD and other orthopedic issues, hypothyroidism, allergies and certain other immune mediated issues, and incontinence especially - but also several of the cancers that are on that list), it behooves us to take special care when considering when to castrate our dogs. But you also have to consider other variables: spaying before a first heat does drastically cut rates of mammary cancer. If you have a puppy bitch with high rates of mammary cancer right behind her, maybe you should consider spaying her early even if it raises risk of other issues that may not be such prevalent risks in her pedigree, or which can be treated more easily than cancer (incontinence, hypothyroidism) What about the risk of pyometra? (can be deadly) OK, so maybe you want your bitch to mature first, but then spay her say in middle age and that's you comfort zone (I'll be frank - this is mine. Someone else may not want to live with seasons any longer than they have to and I absolutely respect that). Risk vrs benefit. There is no perfect answer. No one size fits all (and that is my biggest argument with vets - or laws - that try to push s/n as inevitable and must be done at a certain age) The best you can do is do your homework and take an educated guess. That's all any of us can do. Do you know why most vets advocate 6 mos old? Because that's when dogs used to get their rabies shots and usually the last time they saw a healthy dog until it needed more vaccinations...No research to back it up, just convenience, habit. By all means, if people want to get their dogs desexed at that age, do it. Nowhere is it written that your girl who was spayed at 6 months WILL develop spay incontinence. Or become hypothyroid. All we're talking about is relative risk. Just know what those risks are and make an educated decision. Kristine |
| Interestingly enough the vets I enquired with said they wouldn't do Archie before nine months because of his size, as he hadn't probably achieved his sexual maturity really as such yet, I did ask if I should wait say until he was 18 months or so, and they all said that he'd be fine around 12 months.
Like with all these things you can't make the same animal live their life twice, once intact and once Neutral so to speak and see what differences they actually show. Being a male I still feel a pang of guilt for my boy! |
6Girls wrote: Quote: (well, that is way off the subject....) hehehe Thanks Kathy. http://oesusa.com/SomeoneMustHaveSeenFinn.jpg We may have to stop our pups internet usage!  |
| OK, finally found the U of Pennsylvania Vet School study that looked at the behavioral effects of S/N.
Not to start the discussion up again, but I know I've referenced it now and again, so only fair to provide a link. And it makes for interesting reading. http://www.cdoca.org/health%20articles/ ... havior.pdf Kristine |
| That was an interesting read and, I think, broken down very well. Thanks for posting this. As time goes on, and the more I learn, the more I find my own views on neutering and spaying changing. I'm "pro-choice" on it, but I think everyone needs to read the new research and make their decisions based on those findings rather than what we've previously thought to be true of spaying and neutering. |
| Very interesting read, thanks for posting it. |
| Agreed. That was a very interesting article, Kristine. Thanks for taking the time to find it and post it for us. |
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