Snapping and Growling greeting people
The events that I have seen happen so fast I can't really say I know what has happened. The common thread is a hand being presented for her to sniff or hands near her face. I just had her to the vet for her routine checkup and nothing was out of the ordinary then. I have not been able to reccreate at home to help with training/obedince issue. I know I need to help her realize that this is an unwanted behavior but I just don't know how. The last event happened over the weekend and since then I have been really upset. I tried to really enforce that I am pack leader by making sure she stays behind me, I go through doors first. Truth be told I don't alway enforce those rules at home. I plan on calling in some help but I am not sure what to look for. The training club I take classes at is really a volunteer group that while I think the classes are good for obedience. I think I need something different. I also if I can't recreate how can I get her to work through it? I know this has happened only a couple of times but to me it is really unacceptable and I want to get the problem resolved now before she does bite someone and I have a bigger problem on my hands. I don't trust her meeting new people right now. Any suggestions on what qualifications I should look for in getting professional help and things I should be prepared to tell them would be great. Thanks |
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I'm so sorry to hear of your problem and I will be watching for replys as today while out for her walk . Dutch, my sweet loveable girl growled, lunged and showed her teeth to a lady that was walking by ( thank gosh she didn't make contact with the poor lady ). I have never seen her act like this before usualy neither pets or people bother her. I am also now very nervous about walking her.  |
| How old is Miley? Is she spaded? Has anything happened recently that has contributed to this new aggression or fear?
I am no expert, but I think a behaviorist is your best bet on understanding why Miley is doing this and show you ways to correct this problem. As you have said this is serious and although there has been no contact, you want to stop this NOW. The problem, in my opinion, is if you do not consult a professional, and your method is incorrect, it can make the problem worse. Maybe your vet, the Humane Society or possibly a rescue group in your area can recommend a good behaviorist. I am sorry you are having this problem, I am sure, with the right help, Miley can enjoy meeting people again. Good Luck~~~~~~ |
| I am sure there are going to be some awesome suggestions here
for you all. I am interested in learning as well. One thing that is going to be hard to get over is your nervousness...that goes right down the leash to your dog! I am the worst! 
I am always worried my dogs may act up in class and they feel that! Being herders they tend to be concerned with other dogs alot. How are the people approaching the dogs??? I have a few OES that are stand offish....when walking them in the park if people approach I ask them to do so slowly. You don't want to alarm them just alert! If a child wants to pet one of the dogs I always hold them so, I can keep control of the mouth.....just in case!(unless I know they are totally okay with kids) A gentle rub while the kids pet the other half! One thought may be to keep treats with you and hand them one to give on the meeting(if your pup is food motivated as most OES are) Quin used to be a nut in the park and I would walk the path and treat him when needed to deter is attention away from other dogs. Good Luck and I am sure you will get some good tips on the issue! |
sheepieshake wrote: How old is Miley? Is she spaded? Has anything happened recently that has contributed to this new aggression or fear?
I am no expert, but I think a behaviorist is your best bet on understanding why Miley is doing this and show you ways to correct this problem. As you have said this is serious and although there has been no contact, you want to stop this NOW. The problem, in my opinion, is if you do not consult a professional, and your method is incorrect, it can make the problem worse. Maybe your vet, the Humane Society or possibly a rescue group in your area can recommend a good behaviorist. I am sorry you are having this problem, I am sure, with the right help, Miley can enjoy meeting people again. Good Luck~~~~~~ Val- If there is something new that trigged it I can't put my finger on it. Miley turned 2 in May and she is spayed. I know I am going to start with a training group by Patrica McConnell. I am not sure all of the trainers there are behavorist but that is what I will inquire about. I know from the website on of the staff members has a sheepie. So maybe she may have some breed specific insight. The good news is the behavior does not happen with all people because I can take her to the dog park without incident. She goes to dog daycare without incident. I took her to check out a recently openned dog daycare and the did a behavior test with out problems. So I can't figure out the trigger. Donner's Mom - I agree with our attitude going down the lease - so I have been trying to be more confident with her. I am not the most confident person so this is a challenge for me but Miley makes me want to be at my best. Also - I think there is something to the approach of the people. Usually the people have offered an extended hand. I have noticed she is better if people keep there hands close to their body. - I am wondering if it might be a sight problem that a regular checkup won't find. Thanks again. |
| Becky, it sounds like leash aggression.
Here is a link explaining it - http://www.boxer-rescue-la.com/homepage ... /leash.pdf or do a search typing in "leash aggression" and you will get a bunch of info. I had a friend in our basset rescue have this happen with her dog Harold. Real nice sweet dog, and he turned into a Cujo on lead - and his was directed at other dogs. Turned out Laura had been tensing up on the lead when approaching strange dogs while out walking, patting to reassure him - all the wrong things. She addressed it, went to classes where they worked on it and now Harold is back to his usual self. 
Good luck! |
| being spayed has nothing to do with this behavior (or anyother behavior that I have ever read about). Patricia McConnel has wonderful information on dog behaviors that will be very helpful. Is she running the actual classes? You can also check out Suzanne CLothier's auto check in technique which is helpful with many dog reactivity and agression issues.
There are two types of reactive dogs - over confident and anxious. Once you determine, and have it confirmed by a professional, what type of issue you are dealing with, there are many good training techniques you can use. they do take time and consistency to establish a reliable behavior though. For the meantime do not allow anyone to approach your dog - unless she is ready to accept the approach, this is good advice for anyone with a dog. And don't blame your dog for her actions - she isn't trying to be difficult  |
| Where did it happen the times that it did and who was it with? Adults? Children? |
| The sweet little Miley I met in Waukesha? Shocking!
Frankly, if she was going to do this I would have expected her to do so with me because I really pushed her comfort zone when I greeted her by the rally ring. She was taken aback by my rude behavior (I just stepped right up and ruffled her head and got right in her space - not intentional, programmed when I see an OES I guess), but I backed off a little and she bounced back nicely and accepted it just fine, so I'm a little surprised. But maybe not since she clearly told me she wasn't used to this. And, no, I doubt I was rude enough to cause her lasting trauma.
(As a sidenote, I proof my dogs for stuff like this since they're out in public all the time and rude/clueless people abound. At a show this weekend, Macy had three young children hanging off of her. I had invited them to say hi, but I was still a little surprised to see all three drape themselves over the dog in a heartbeat and hug her not knowing her and a lot grateful that I teach my dogs to tolerate being manhhandled up to a point. It's one of those weird things most people don't think about, but you can and should definitely include it as part of a puppy/dog's socialization process. I learned this will Belle who came rock solid, thank god, but never went anywhere where people weren't getting in her face and hugging her and lord knows what else. People think our dogs are oversized stuffed animals and not all of them appreciate it.) You're doing the right thing. Even if Patricia isn't teaching the classes (and I doubt she is), her intructors tend to be better versed in dealing with "issues" in dogs than most, so tell them about your concerns and ask if they'd recommend an actual behavioral consult. Patricia or one of the other behaviorists who works with her will, in that case, evaluate Miley and probably give you some exercises to work on and as luck would have it if you need bunches of understanding people to help you, come to Sheepiefest on Oct 4 and we'll recruit people. My money is on an anxiety issue, perhaps related to a lack of confidence, especially when you consider her noise sensitivity. My experience is the outcomes tend to be really good with some patience and attention to what you're doing. Good for you for jumping right on it. And just a side note, there's evidence that there's a correlation between anxiety disorders and spay/neuter. Not that intact dogs can't have issues, but there's a higher rate of these types of behavioral related problems in dogs that have been desexed. So if someone mentions their dog is having such issues, please don't recommend that they run out and s/n their dog thinking it will help the problem (I know, no one here did and Miley is already spayed) because it won't. Not that there aren't other reasons to s/n. Just be sure you don't recommend it as a quick fix, because it isn't. It'll be OK. Let us know what we can do to help. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: My money is on an anxiety issue, perhaps related to a lack of confidence, especially when you consider her noise sensitivity. My experience is the outcomes tend to be really good with some patience and attention to what you're doing. Good for you for jumping right on it. And just a side note, there's evidence that there's a correlation between anxiety disorders and spay/neuter. Ohh that is interesting. SO many people have recommended spaying Marley for her anxiety now I have a comeback. Is there a study I can quote? Kristine |
kerry wrote: Mad Dog wrote: And just a side note, there's evidence that there's a correlation between anxiety disorders and spay/neuter. Ohh that is interesting. SO many people have recommended spaying Marley for her anxiety now I have a comeback. Is there a study I can quote? There are a number of papers out there; it's a hot topic now with MSN and people realizing that the research has been out there for a while, but mostly ignored in the US at least, except among performance people, perhaps. Most of the papers out there quote and/or summarize the actual research. Here's a summary by Margaret Root-Kustritz, DVM, PhD of the University of Minnesota - the AKC includes her piece among their white papers, though there are many others: http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/ ... rticle.pdf Her behavioral summary as follows: Effects of gonadectomy on behavior Behaviors that are most likely to be affected by gonadectomy are those that are sexually dimorphic (seen primarily in one gender). Examples of sexually dimorphic behaviors include flagging in bitches, and mounting and urine marking in dogs. Incidence of sexually dimorphic behaviors decreases after gonadectomy in bitches and dogs, with the decrease in incidence not correlated with length of time the animal has shown the behavior prior to gonadectomy. Those behaviors that are not sexually dimorphic, including most forms of aggression, are not decreased in incidence by gonadectomy. One behavioral consequence of spaying that has been documented in several studies is an increase in reactivity towards humans, with unfamiliar dogs and increased aggression toward family members. This may be hormonally related; there may also be a breed predisposition. There is no evidence documenting a decline in trainability of working female or male dogs after spay or castration. One study documented an increase in development of senile behaviors after gonadectomy in male dogs. However, that study had very few dogs in the intact male group and other studies, looking directly at changes in brain tissue, are not supportive of that finding. The problem with drawing definitive conclusions is that many of the studies may have been breed or gender specific, so we have to be careful not to extrapolate too casually. The notion that there's an increase in reactivity and fear aggression in spayed bitches vrs intact bitches, for instance, may in large part come from the following study: Kim HH, Yeon SC, Houpt KA, et al. Effects of ovariohysterectomy on reactivity in German Shepherd Dogs. Vet J 2006;172:154-159. There are other research papers out there such as one by Univ. of Penn School of Vet Med based on a rather extensive study conducted there which was also suggestive of s/n having significant adverse effects on behavior, but also that effects tend to vary with breed, gender and the age of the dog when castrated, but darned if I can find the paper itself right now and that's going to drive me a little nuts for the rest of the day  .
Can we take the GSD conclusions and apply it directly to OES bitches? Not really. But should we ignore what it suggests? No. This could quite possibly be replicated in OES. But we don't know for sure. What we do know is if spaying can have a detrimental behavioral effect on one group of dogs, it may have a similar effect on a somewhat similar group of dogs. All of the research keeps telling us that we can't make blanket statements about the positive or negative effects of gonadectomy. As a sidenote, we elected to take behavioral questions out of the upcoming OESCA breed health survey. On some levels I was dissappointed because the results MAY have been suggestive of similar trends in OES. However, while health issues are typically diagnosed by health professionals (vets), most behavioral issues are not, so we would have only a layperson's assessment of what their dog's behavior was like and as you can see from the forum, often it's hard for people to say for certain whether their dog has dominance aggression, or fear aggression or...? I.e. the results could not be considered reliable. IF some OES club wanted to do such a study - and, frankly, it's wouldn't rank high on most lists of concerns given the many other more pressing issues out there - it would have to be done by actual researchers who could assess the dogs for themselves. And then you'd have to somehow allow for the differing levels of dog experience among owners. It would be difficult to conduct in the US, to be honest, certainly for our breed, since the highest rates of intact dog ownership would be hopelessly skewed to the most experienced dog owners. Europe might be a possibility, though. Don't hold your breath.
Basically, there's no evidence that says spaying Marley will somehow make her reactivity dissappear and a slim possibility it could cause it to escalate. At this point, it probably won't have too much of an effect either way so should be done, if at all, for other reasons. Not because we're programmed to believe that canine gonads are the root of all evil
Kristine |
| thanks as always Kritine.
Suzanne Clothier had one of her male dogs vasectomized and is big on the importance of hormones to behavior and development. I can't wait until we have that conversation with the vet about Beowulf  |
kerry wrote: Suzanne Clothier had one of her male dogs vasectomized and is big on the importance of hormones to behavior and development. I can't wait until we have that conversation with the vet about Beowulf
Oh, YEOW. A giant breed. I'm sure his breeder impressed upon you the importance of keeping him intact as long as possible for orthopedic and cancer reasons. The last vet who all but wasn't going to let me out the door until I scheduled my six mos old show dog's <!> spay became my ex-vet that very day. Same vet who wouldn't listen when I told him no bordatella vaccine. Second pet vet to do that to me.  Give me a breeder vet any day  They listen. Ask around if it becomes too big of an issue.
(Sorry, didn't mean to divert the thread )
Kristine |
| Thanks for all the advise. I appreciate it and here is a little more of each situtation that I saw.
1) I was out at my daughter's tennis pratice. Miley and I spent the afternoon at the dog park. Since I did not have time to stop home and drop Miley at home - I took her with me and we waited by watching. I was sitting on a blanket and Miley was next to me chewing on a bone. Old neighbor - turns out he helps coach stops to say hi and see how Maddi was doing. I get up to talk - he notices Miley and offers her a hand to sniff as a greeting. She snaps and growls. It happens in 30 seconds. Interesting enough I am stepping on the lesch so I can shake hands. 2) Our family goes to visit friends for the day - we have to travel and expect to be gone the whole day so we take Miley. When we arrive we go into the house and the Dad (who does not like dogs) is out and he arrives about 1/2 hour later. When he come home Miley goes up to him and he offers his hand but jerks it back a little quick. Miley is not on a lesch. 3) I did not see the third incident but it was with a female in our home. Someone picking up her kids from our house. She puts a hand out for dog to sniff and tries to pat Miley on the head. This is how my hubbby explained to me. If I were to guess we have fear aggression going on. I had some how forgotten the noise issue (I did not think about it in relation to this problem but in retrospect I would bet they could be related.). I also wonder if she is protecting me. I did tend to "baby" her for a while but for the last year or so I have tried to stop - but old habits die hard. By "babying" I mean the - reassuring talk and pets (which is what Dawn's post reference). The other thing that Dawn's link mentioned is understanding dog body language. This is where I really need help. Miley is my first no-tailed dog and the tail was the only dog language I felt I understood. Not to worry - I am not upset with Miley. I know that we (Miley and I) have a communication problem - she is not doing this on purpose and its my job to help her. She is still her sweet lovable furball for me. I just want everyone else to see this side. I am registered for a Rally trial the weekend of Sept 20-21. I still think I will go and take her crate. I think she has to get used to being in lots of places. I just need to keep distance from people. Thanks again. |
| The first instance I would have suspected the bone. Does it happen when people try to pet her on her chest instead of her head? that is a socially uncomfortable place for dogs to be pet. |
| I don't know if she is uncomfortable with the chest. I have an appointment at our house on Friday morning for a behavior consult. So I am trying to thing of all the things and write them down. |
| A dog's sense of smell is 1000 times greater than that of a human. Therefore a dog has sniffed long before seeing one's outstretched hand.
kerry wrote: The first instance I would have suspected the bone. Does it happen when people try to pet her on her chest instead of her head? that is a socially uncomfortable place for dogs to be pet.
Kerry: I'm sure you meant this the other way around. If one is to pet a strange dog, isn't a dog more comfortable with one's hand petting under the dog's chin or on it's chest rather than over the top of it's head? |
| No I meant the head is an uncomfortable place |
| While working with a rescue group, I pulled a dog from a shelter that was labeled a "fear bitter". I witnessed how difficult he was to extract from his kennel at the shelter, but he was fine with me once he was out. So he was neutered and then pulled to be fostered at my home. He was fabulous with me and with my niece and nephews at first. But this dog freaks at people holding their hand out. As long as people don't reach for him first, he will go up to them and be fine - but this takes about 15 minutes. Ziggy gives no warning whatsoever, he just suddenly snarls and tries to bite.
In the 6 years I have had Zig, he has been to two behaviorists and had an exhaustive amount of training. In Ziggy's case, it would appear he may be hardwired that way. But I am going to try another behaviorist - the Vet insists he can be helped. In the interim, I try to limit his exposure to strangers reaching for him. All of this is to say, were it me, I would get my dog to the best behaviorist I could find as fast as possible. I know this must be really distressing for you both. You have my very best wishes. Quote: As a sidenote, we elected to take behavioral questions out of the upcoming OESCA breed health survey. On some levels I was dissappointed because the results MAY have been suggestive of similar trends in OES. However, while health issues are typically diagnosed by health professionals (vets), most behavioral issues are not, so we would have only a layperson's assessment of what their dog's behavior was like and as you can see from the forum, often it's hard for people to say for certain whether their dog has dominance aggression, or fear aggression or...? I.e. the results could not be considered reliable.
Yup, I share your disappointment, though I understand the quandary. And I am guessing many are as reluctant to tracking behavioral issues as they were to tracking health issues. Thanks Kristine for fighting the good fight. ~n |
| Anyone who is concerned about behavior in our breed should participate in this study:
http://www.k9behavioralgenetics.com/ |
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