Advice Please? Luna is hurt....
Tonks is quite hardy, and never seems to have any injury issues. But ever since Luna was small, it wasn't uncommon for her, about once a week, to twist her paw or strain a leg while romping with other dogs at the park. She'd yelp when it happened, slow down, and hobble for a few moments. I always checked it over, and made sure it didn't hurt to the touch, seemed swollen, or was bleeding. And always, without exception, she'd walk it off and be back to herself within 10 or 15 minutes, and back to running around as if nothing happened. Today was different. Luna was re-united with a puppy pal she hadn't seen in a few months, and was VERY excited. They were chasing each other around a parked car, and in one of the laps I watched Luna bash her leg into a ledge sticking out of the vehicle, meant for people to use as a step for climbing up into it. She yelped very loudly when it happened, and continued to cry and yelp, hobbling away from the car. I was pretty far away, but called to her to "sit" and to "stay", which she did. Once she took the weight off it, she stopped crying. I got to her within a few moments, and checker her paw which she was holding off the ground. There was no blood. I applied pressure to all surfaces, which was met with silence. I think if it was broken, that would have hurt and she would have cried out. I sat with her, while the other dogs all ran around, waiting for her to walk it off. But when she finally did try, she couldn't put much weight on it. She can use it, but does so very gingerly. When we finally left to go home, I expected to have to lift her into the car; but she leaped up with no problem. We made a pit stop at a pet store the girls like; I thought I'd get her a great big bone, and keep her quietly lying down for the rest of the night. They usually come into the store, but I left them in the car. The sales girl came out to greet them, and in doing so, opened the car door, to which Luna hopped out just fine, and limped to the store's door. She wanted to go in! We let her in, where she laid down and enjoyed some attention and a treat, then again hopped back into the car with no problems. However, when we got home, she was hesitant to get out of the car, and my boyfriend had to carry her into the house. Several hours have passed with no noticeable improvement. She'll sleep, and in waking forget she has hurt herself and attempt to get up. It results in a yelp of pain. But once up, she sort of hobbles around, using her paw as little as possible, without actually keeping it from the ground. I was going to call the vet in the morning; is that too late? Should I be taking her to an emergency vet? Is there anything I can give her for pain? Something holistic, or something like baby asprin?  |
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 Hugs to Luna.
I have no advice other than take her in to the vet tomorrow. I hope someone else will get on and post something a bit more helpful. I just wanted to say that I hope she is not seriously hurt and all is well. Keep us posted. It'snot easy when they are hurting and there is little we can do for them. Hang in there.... |
| I also have no words of wisdom...( I KNOW someone here will...) --just wanted you to know I am sorry sweet Luna hurt herself and I hope she will be as good as new in the morning...Please keep us posted.
I always worry about this type of injury..Heart will run sooo hard and fast and sometimes she slides, but so far no problems...
to Luna and Tonks..I sure he is very confused about why Luna keeps crying..poor guy!!!! |
| yes; every time Luna cries out, Tonks runs to her side. Not quite what you expect from siblings that until a few months ago, were fighting ferociously with one another! At the park, Luna's dog pal that she was so happy to see kept coming over to try and get Luna back into the game. He couldn't understand why she was suddenly so un-interested in playing.
And alot of people make the mistake, but Tonks is a "she".  I think its my fault; I should have named her something a bit more recognizably girlie.  |
| Keep her quiet and Contained and only out on a lead to potty when needing to do so and take her to the vets when you can.
Could be a bone chip or pulled muscle or tendon, at the moment the best thing you can do for her is containing her in a crate and keeping her quiet till you can see a vet. I can't remember how old the girls are now, but under 12 months for me I don't let them run around madly with other dogs as they still have a long way to go in developing both in the bones and body. |
| The girls are 10 months old now.
She's pretty "contained" right now. She has the biggest meaty bone I have ever given them, and is on her bed diligently working on it. I'll crate her for bed time. Our yard isn't fenced; so potty time is on a lead anyway. Thanks for the advice. |
| Good just keep on keeping her quiet till you can see the vet tomorrow, in the meantime before her going down for the night, try massaging the leg gently and see if there is any squirm or yelp from her. See how she is in the morning too, if she is putting her leg down and weight bearing OK on the leg. It might be after a vet visit, hopefully no bone chip just rest with maybe some meds from the vet to get her over this
Keep us up to date with Luna and sending Sheepie hugs for your girl |
Darth Snuggle wrote: And alot of people make the mistake, but Tonks is a "she".
I think its my fault; I should have named her something a bit more recognizably girlie. Many of us are sci-fi/fantasy nuts and know that Tonks must be a "she". But I guess not everyone is as nerdy as we are I should have given Bailey a different name, everyone thinks he is a she.
Big belly rubs to poor Luna, I would definitely take her to the vet tomorrow and have her checked out. |
| From one Luna to another, I hope she's okay.
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| I would definitely get it checked... since you mentioned this has happened before but on a lesser scale, maybe mention Panosteitis.
http://leerburg.com/pano.htm |
| Thanks everyone! I just took Luna out to potty, and she did pretty well. I think her lying still for hours at a time with her new bone is helping. |
Willowsprite wrote: I would definitely get it checked... since you mentioned this has happened before but on a lesser scale, maybe mention Panosteitis.
http://leerburg.com/pano.htm I'm not willing to rule anything out, but Luna's always injured herself. I can watch her do it. Its not a pain without a reason. She usually twists her paw or stumbles. In this case she slammed into something. But I will mention it. |
| I just went to the vet tonight with almost identical symptoms, after I was picking her up to put her on our bed, she cried out in pain and started limping the next day. Only difference is that our girl (Rebecca) is much older (8.5 years). Vet did xrays looking for a cruciate ligament tear/rupture so it is best that you can get her to the vet to try and figure out what is going on. You should definitely try to keep her immobile for now.
Good news for us is that there were no tears and her hips and knees look great for a senior so she probably is dealing with a twist or sprain. Bad news is that her spine has some serious arthritis going on, and that we will be soon having to dose her daily with pain meds. |
I hope she feels better soon. I get it...a "Hairy Pawter" fan.  |
| There are some orthopedic concerns here that the vet needs to explore. Initially the report will be rest, rest, rest. If pain continues, the vet will be looking for more detailed problems, torn, chipped, stuff. Luna is still a pup, still growing and bones, plates, tendons, etc are still developing.
Plus as a pup she's a real drama princess. I've never found sheepies to be stoic, They don't hide their hurts. I wish these guys would give us exact hurt areas so we could ice them down...like they'll hold still for that!
Hopefully this is just a bruise. |
| My Jake used to twist a paw every now and then he'd limp around for a day or two.
Since the acute pain retreated pretty quickly and she was walking on it, I'd be inclined to wait a day or two trying to keep her quiet, but if you're worried then you know best what to do. |
| well, I called the vet first thing, and she said I could bring Luna in for a 9:30 appointment. Of course, Luna was walking much better on it, but I didn't want to take any chances.
Once at the vet's office, they checked it out pretty thoroughly. They had her walk around while observing her, and noticed a new "head bob" as she walked, leading them to think it was a shoulder injury more than a paw or leg one. But on the table, she quietly allowed the vet to mover her leg in all different directions and angles. We agreed to do an X-ray, to be on the safe side. I left her there for the morning, and will go back to pick her up this afternoon and talk more with the vet then. |
Ron wrote: My Jake used to twist a paw every now and then he'd limp around for a day or two.
Since the acute pain retreated pretty quickly and she was walking on it, I'd be inclined to wait a day or two trying to keep her quiet, but if you're worried then you know best what to do. Like your Jake, Luna often twists her paw at the park. If it had just been that, I'd have let it go. But since I saw her smash into the side of that car, and her pain was so much more pronounced than when she does the usual paw twist, I thought it important to have it looked at. |
| ok; I'm just back from the vet.
The x-rays show no bone damage, and by the time I went to get Luna, her limp was significantly reduced yet again. The trip resulted in a few good things though. With Luna already getting an X-ray, I asked if they could screen her for signs of Hip Dysplasia. My vet explained that due to the nature of the position the dog must take for that X-ray, with their rear legs fully extended while the dog lies on their back, that its usually done to dogs while under anesthesia. But she said she'd see if it was possible. When I picked Luna up, the vet raved about what a good girl she had been, even holding the difficult pose for her HD x-ray! AND the x-ray showed healthy bone structure! So while its not a sure thing, it gives us something to compare against when we do it again at 24 months. Yay Luna! However; with my "breeder" being fairly irresponsible, I wasn't caught off guard by the next "Surprise!". It would seem that Luna has only had her front dew claws removed. While checking her legs thoroughly, I thought I had found dew claws, and asked the vet to check them. Sure enough, the vet found she still had her rear ones; something none of us had ever noticed. Stupid back yard breeder. I'd be mad at myself for being weak, and falling in love with this woman's puppies, but I love them so much I am grateful to have them in my life. Long story short; Luna is going to be just fine! I have an anti-inflammatory pain killer to give her, and the vet suggests keeping her "quiet" for several days. But I think she'll be fine to keep her Saturday night dog park play-date. |
| I am so glad Luna is on the mend and no damage!!! |
| Great news, Allison!
OK, now for the "bad" news. If it's a soft tissue injury she needs more than a few days off and some pain meds before she has a play date. They tend to take a long time to heal properly, as in up to months depending on the severity, so there's a chance that what you're seeing as her constantly injuring herself is actually reinjury of an initial injury and/or compensation injuries from same. Bottom line, no rough housing for a few weeks at least in order to give her a chance to really heal. Baby dogs are just idiots in this regard so don't expect any help from HER.
That doesn't mean no exercise. They rehab dogs more like they rehab people these days as in it's no longer toss them in a crate for X number of days, but keep them moving in a controlled manner to maintain muscle mass. Of course, controlled is always a relative concept when you're talking about an OES puppy with too much pent up energy
Does she enjoy swimming? Kristine |
| Well the vet thinks its really more of a bump than anything more serious, like an actual tear in ligament or muscle. Within 24 hours of getting the injury, Luna is walking with almost no noticeable limp. And the limb doesn't cause her any discomfort when pressure is applied anywhere, and she has full range of motion without expressing discomfort.
So its "quiet time" for a few days, and we'll see how she's doing at that point. And as for swimming? We've yet to find anywhere that I can take them to truly "swim", but I can't keep her out of anything wet. Sprinklers, puddles, small streams, her baby pool, the wading pool at the doggy daycare.... |
Darth Snuggle wrote: ok; I'm just back from the vet.
The x-rays show no bone damage, and by the time I went to get Luna, her limp was significantly reduced yet again. The trip resulted in a few good things though. With Luna already getting an X-ray, I asked if they could screen her for signs of Hip Dysplasia. My vet explained that due to the nature of the position the dog must take for that X-ray, with their rear legs fully extended while the dog lies on their back, that its usually done to dogs while under anesthesia. But she said she'd see if it was possible. When I picked Luna up, the vet raved about what a good girl she had been, even holding the difficult pose for her HD x-ray! AND the x-ray showed healthy bone structure! So while its not a sure thing, it gives us something to compare against when we do it again at 24 months. Yay Luna! However; with my "breeder" being fairly irresponsible, I wasn't caught off guard by the next "Surprise!". It would seem that Luna has only had her front dew claws removed. While checking her legs thoroughly, I thought I had found dew claws, and asked the vet to check them. Sure enough, the vet found she still had her rear ones; something none of us had ever noticed. Stupid back yard breeder. I'd be mad at myself for being weak, and falling in love with this woman's puppies, but I love them so much I am grateful to have them in my life. Long story short; Luna is going to be just fine! I have an anti-inflammatory pain killer to give her, and the vet suggests keeping her "quiet" for several days. But I think she'll be fine to keep her Saturday night dog park play-date. My breeder told me that hip dysplasia is usually diagnosed before 6 months of age, so she should be fine! Don't worry, her hips are going to be ok |
| sorry - I have never heard that before. debilitating hip dysplasia maybe. Dogs aren't even x rayed until two for permanent CHD diagnosis.
I am cutting and pasting this from the OFA website - The OFA accepts preliminary consultation radiographs on puppies as young as 4 months of age for evaluation of hip conformation. If the dog is found to be dysplastic at an early age, the economic loss from the cost of training, handling, showing and so forth can be minimized and the emotional loss reduced. These preliminary radiographs are read by the OFA veterinary radiologists and are not sent to outside radiologists. The same hip grades are given to preliminary cases. A recent publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months). Looks to me like under 6 moths the reliability of diagnosis is less than 90% I would question why this breeder said this. |
| my understanding is that while the formal OFA forms require an X-ray at 24 months. But I've heard of HD making itself present and a problem as early as 6 months. So while I am pretty happy that Luna doesn't show signs of this problem now, I know that to be truly clear, we'll need to re-check at 24 months.
Here is more info on what OFA has to say about preliminary HD screens and what they mean to later on. It DOES say a grade of excellent will, 100% stay excellent as a puppy grows. 97.9% of the "good" grades would remain good, and 76.9% of hte fair grades would result in normal hips at 2 years of age. Pretty interesting, really. http://www.offa.org/hipprelim.html |
kerry wrote: sorry - I have never heard that before. debilitating hip dysplasia maybe. Dogs aren't even x rayed until two for permanent CHD diagnosis.
I am cutting and pasting this from the OFA website - The OFA accepts preliminary consultation radiographs on puppies as young as 4 months of age for evaluation of hip conformation. If the dog is found to be dysplastic at an early age, the economic loss from the cost of training, handling, showing and so forth can be minimized and the emotional loss reduced. These preliminary radiographs are read by the OFA veterinary radiologists and are not sent to outside radiologists. The same hip grades are given to preliminary cases. A recent publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months). Looks to me like under 6 moths the reliability of diagnosis is less than 90% I would question why this breeder said this. That's what she told me. The breeder is OESCA and has a lot of experience. She just told me that most puppies will show signs of hip dypsplasia before 6 months if they are going to get it. None of her puppies have ever had hip dysplasia so I don't think she would lie about it. |
Quote: That's what she told me. The breeder is OESCA and has a lot of experience. She just told me that most puppies will show signs of hip dypsplasia before 6 months if they are going to get it. None of her puppies have ever had hip dysplasia so I don't think she would lie about it.
At the risk of starting WWIII, just being in OESCA doesn't make a breeder immune from stretching the truth - as in this case. I am sure you will hear from many owners whose dogs never showed signs before 6 months who have CHD. My boy has CHD and although I was suspicious when he was younger he showed no overt signs (still doesn't) we only know because he was xrayed. and my breeder is OESCA. I don't think there is a single line out there with absolutel no CHD sorry. |
| Wow, thanks. That's strange she would lie. I can get a refund and give the dog back if she is diagnosed, so I am protected at least a little. I thought I was in the clear with hip dysplasia because my puppy's over 6 months. Thanks for the info. |
| Most health guarantees only provide a replacement puppy - or in the case of my guy a reduction in price and only if its totally debilitating. However I think that is a moot point. I would not be able to return a puppy after a week - never mind after almost two years. |
| I agree, I could never give my dog back. I felt like the guarantee was to assure me that her puppies were healthy.
What happens to an OESCA breeder who has a puppy that ends up with CHD? Is it noted somewhere? Are they asked to leave the club? Or do they just go about business like nothing happened? |
| Just want to point out that 90% accuracy is still pretty good! It is not 100% but it means that 9 times out of ten if they see good hips now they'll be good at 2 years or beyond; it depends what they meant by the 90% statistic. (I'd guess 2 years isn't a full 100% either, but that's just a guess.)
The bottom line is, it's great news, and that's what is important! |
| well Ron, remember how small the sample size is of dogs being tested so early - and the X-rays that Luna had were not read by OFA. the statistics are their statistics, but yes good news.
As far as ella's question. As I said CHD is something that can happen everywhere and I would think that being drummed out of OESCA might be a severe punishment - funny I can only think of the Williamsburg costumes when I say drummed out of OESCa - imagine a squad of early american attired OES performing the ceremony  |
ella wrote: I agree, I could never give my dog back. I felt like the guarantee was to assure me that her puppies were healthy.
What happens to an OESCA breeder who has a puppy that ends up with CHD? Is it noted somewhere? Are they asked to leave the club? Or do they just go about business like nothing happened? We tar and feather them. Just kidding <sigh> CHD can happen to any one at any time no matter how careful you are. It's in the breed which means the genes are floating around in all "lines" Since few if any breeder is able to get all puppies in all litters x-rayed all the time, breeders can produce mild cases especially and conceivably never know about it. CHD has a polygenic mode of inheritance (multiple genes are involved from both mom and dad) and no DNA test, so we use the next best thing, phenotype testing (i.e. looking for clinical signs). Even though there are no 100% guarantees, screening for hip dysplasia this way will reduce both the rate of occurence and severity over time. Maybe I'm talking to the wrong people, but I can't remember the last time anyone who screens and has been in the breed for more than 12 minutes told me they had a dog come back as anything worse than with a mild unilateral rating. That's not good news. Certainly not for, say, an agility dog, nor should that dog be used for breeding. But will probably function just fine as a normal dog in a normal home. So while not something you wish to happen, not something you throw yourself over a cliff over in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps what your breeder was referring to is that generally only moderate to severe CHD will be detected as early as 6 mos. Even though I wouldn't consider an informal x-ray at 6 mos old terribly predictive - as Allison said, she still wants to x-ray at 24 mos - I'd still be happy that everything looked problem free right now. And if I bought a puppy from someone who routinely screens for hip dysplasia, I wouldn't be losing too much sleep over it. The breeder presumably did what he or she could do to prevent producing dysplastic puppies and I presumably did what I can do to find a healthy puppy, which is to say I found a breeeder who tries hard to avoid producing it. But I'll check to see who in the club stores the tar and feathers and get back to you
Kristine |
| I am laughing at the responses to what happens to the OESCA breeders! Too funny. |
| glad you were smart enough not to be offended by our factual representation of why broad statements should never be taken on face value. Someone on one of the threads here or on another list made the point that its like having kids - you never have any quarantees. |
| "If you breed long enough....it will happen to you." I remember being told this by my mentor years ago. No matter how hard you try & how much you follow the rules, CHD is out there in the breed. By screening & only using dogs with passing ratings we hope to lower the instances of CHD.
The rating depends on alot of factors including who does your x-rays, who reads your x-rays & and even how far out of season your girl was. I have had the same vet do x-rays on 2 different dogs. He's a breeder vet (of imported German Shepard Dogs & Rottweilers so he's a fanatic about hips). He went over all the x-rays with me both times & even compared one dog's x-rays to the other & showed me why one should come back with a better rating than the other. They were sent in at different times. Well, the one we thought should be better (even I could see reason for this thought) came back with a lower rating than the other one! A lot depends on which 3 OFA radiologists are reading the x-rays that particular day. Remember they change on a rotating basis. So your chances of getting the same rating at age 24 months as you did from a prelim at 8-9 months would still have some variables in there. What do you suppose your odds are of having the exact same 3 radiologists read the x-ray 15 months later? And come up with the same decision? Another thing my vet also told me is you have to take into consideration what hip ratings are behind the sire & dam for several generations. And remember not all puppies in all litters are screened. Most companion people don't x-ray hips & get an OFA rating unless they detect a problem. I am a breeder & I have dogs that I don't x-ray. I had a girl that I had no intention of using in my breeding program. I put her AKC CH on her, a CGC & her CD in obedience. We were working on her CDX when she just got too old (11 years) for the jumps anymore. I asked my vet years ago what he thought about x-raying her hips. His answer was: "If you aren't using her in your breeding program don't bother. I see your dogs on a regular enough basis that if either of us see anything we question, we'll x-ray her hips then. Remember, even a mildly dysplastic dog can do the jumps in Open." I had bought her from another breeder so I had none of her siblings. Breeding 2 excellents isn't going to guarantee you a litter of puppies without any hip problems. The same as breeding 2 white headed OES isn't going to guarantee you a litter of all white headed puppies. Any breeder that tells you they have never had any problems of any kind just flat out is not telling you the truth. If you breed, eventually you are going to have a problem somewhere of some kind. We try as hard as we can by studying pedigrees & going over dogs we want to use in breeding to produce the healthiest dogs possible. If every breeder in OESCA was eliminated from the club because somewhere along the line they had a dysplastic dog....well, the club would go out of existance. I'd venture to say most have been thru the heartbreak of having a great dog we had great plans for (show career & breeding program) come back with a hip rating that doesn't pass. |
Ron wrote: Just want to point out that 90% accuracy is still pretty good! It is not 100% but it means that 9 times out of ten if they see good hips now they'll be good at 2 years or beyond; it depends what they meant by the 90% statistic. (I'd guess 2 years isn't a full 100% either, but that's just a guess.)
The bottom line is, it's great news, and that's what is important! Regardless of statisitics, and the chances of CHD developing later, I'm pleased now. My breeder was less than ethical, and this is a far better result than i was expecting. So I'm with Ron; for now I'm happy! |
| Hope she is feeling well soon |
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