Thank God Hair Grows Back
Gar needs a haircut. So down to the basement we go and up on the grooming table. Still a bad idea. So I start trimming around the snout with the scissors...not to bad. Get the clippers going and straight down the middle of his back. OOOOPPPPPSSSSS. Forgot to put the comb thingy on. Try to fix it...ummmm won't work. Gotta shave the whole dog. BAD BAD BAD IDEA!!!!! He's not happy, I'm not happy and DH is really not happy. I'm giving him lots of breaks and I'm trying to figure out why I had a thought!! |
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| oooops!
Please come here and have several more "thoughts." Time for end of summer shavings. |
| ahaahahahahahaha...i am only laughing because i have done the exact same thing.....
mine was on one side of pandas nose....down to the skin...she looked like a poodle..... |
Awww I wanted a picture of the Razor Back look before you had to EVAN it up LOL 
You will never know now it might of started a trend with a different hairdo 
It grows back we all make Boo Boo's, just keep him away from a mirror for awhile  |
Buzz him all the way and don't give it a second thought. Perfect time of year for it and he'll be beautiful in time for sheepie fest. 
what blade # did you use? Combs have never worked well for me anyway. If I want to leave length, I scissor. Kristine |
| Lisa,
I said to dh that I should have given him racing stripes. Kristine, I used a #10. I didn't realize that he was still sooo skinny. I thought he was bulking up a little...it was all hair. I'm not going to take any pictures because he looks sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bad. I always call him big head and I left some length on his head so now he has a really, really big head. Tomorrow I'm going to see if I can even it out a LITTLE but I'm scared I'll just make it worse, although I'm not sure thats possible. |
LOL, poor Gar. Or more, poor Pam. I doubt Gar really has cared. 
LeAnne just shaved down Martha and Clay as well, with a #10 too. So, he isn't the only naked sheepie around! |
| I'm threatening to take sybil down with a #10
Instead I shaved Mad and Che with a #4. Who's next?
Dawn's right. I'm sure he's loving it. You'll get used to it. As soon as you do, it will have grown back. Kristine |
| Chap got shaved practically to the skin at the end of June. He looked so horrible too...it's just now starting to grow back.
Last week I was out of town and my neighbor had the dogs in the front yard playing...some people on a walk stopped to see them. They saw Lacy and Winston and said "Oh, Old English Sheepdogs!" Then they saw Chap and said, "What kind of dog is this one?".  THAT'S how bad he looks. 
It grows back. It grows back. It grows back. |
rdf wrote: Last week I was out of town and my neighbor had the dogs in the front yard playing...some people on a walk stopped to see them. They saw Lacy and Winston and said "Oh, Old English Sheepdogs!" Then they saw Chap and said, "What kind of dog is this one?".
THAT'S how bad he looks. It grows back. It grows back. It grows back. That's not how bad he looks. That's how ignorant people are. These dogs are more than the sum of their hair  Or at least they're supposed to be
But, yes, it does grow back. Too fast for my liking. One dog on the table drying, another ready to be brushed. Ack. Like I don't have better things to do with my life. Bald is beautiful. Oh, Belly Bean, come here, sweet heart. Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: That's not how bad he looks. That's how ignorant people are. These dogs are more than the sum of their hair
Or at least they're supposed to be I think it just showed how totally different he looked than the others - he is unrecognizable. The other two are cut down to 2" and they recognized them! |
rdf wrote: Mad Dog wrote: That's not how bad he looks. That's how ignorant people are. These dogs are more than the sum of their hair Or at least they're supposed to be I think it just showed how totally different he looked than the others - he is unrecognizable. The other two are cut down to 2" and they recognized them! OK, I see what you're saying. The others had enough hair to be recognizable. And I can see how those not familiar with the breed would have a hard time recognizing a naked one. I remember when we got a big, black, docked matted dog in at a local shelter and three out of four of us said "poorly bred Giant Schnauzer" until a breeder of the actual breed saw him and said "nope, poorly bred Bouvier" Boy were we embarrassed
Anyway, when you shave an Old English down all you're doing is removing one recognizable aspect of the breed. The things that set an OES apart from other breeds are called "breed type". They are a grouping of characteristics which collectively tell us that this is an OES and not a Poodle or a Dobe or a Beardie or a PON or a....? So, pop quiz: what are five characteristics that all OES should share that set our breed apart from the rest. (Conformation people need not apply and no fair cheating and looking at the breed standard. OK, unless you absolutely need to) Anybody care to give a shot? One, several, all? There are more than five, and a couple that are really key, but let's put that as a minimum. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. (anything to not have to brush Sybil this fine afternoon....  )
Kristine |
| Hmmmm, this is a tough one. I was going to say stubborn but I've met stubborn dogs before. Big Butt...naaa. Big Black nose...nope. Goofy, playful, smart, boundless energy(mine at least), velcro, soulful eyes, trouble makers, all these things just make them lovable but don't make the breed stand out.
Oh well, I guess the only prize I get is two lovable dogs (one of them looks like he had mange). That makes me a winner!!! |
Simon's Mom wrote: Hmmmm, this is a tough one. I was going to say stubborn but I've met stubborn dogs before. Big Butt...naaa. Big Black nose...nope. Goofy, playful, smart, boundless energy(mine at least), velcro, soulful eyes, trouble makers, all these things just make them lovable but don't make the breed stand out.
Oh well, I guess the only prize I get is two lovable dogs (one of them looks like he had mange). That makes me a winner!!! Sybil looks like she has...something...
You're on the right track with the nose and the butt.... Stubborn isn't actually in the breed standard, but good guess
Though breed standards often cover temperament, when you meet a shaved sheepdog on the street, how do you know it's a sheepdog even if you can't interact with the dog so know nothing about his personality? Kristine |
| Since I'm a conformation/breeder person, I won't reply but I sure hope someone mentions the "hallmark" of the breed! Should be noticeable in coat or shaved down! |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Since I'm a conformation/breeder person, I won't reply but I sure hope someone mentions the "hallmark" of the breed! Should be noticeable in coat or shaved down!
And my agility instructor has been asking me about the purpose and origin thereof. I've asked several long time breeders/AKC judges and I still don't have a convincing answer for her
Kristine |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Since I'm a conformation/breeder person, I won't reply but I sure hope someone mentions the "hallmark" of the breed! Should be noticeable in coat or shaved down!
Is it the rump being higher than the shoulders? |
Cadenza wrote: ChSheepdogs wrote: Since I'm a conformation/breeder person, I won't reply but I sure hope someone mentions the "hallmark" of the breed! Should be noticeable in coat or shaved down! Is it the rump being higher than the shoulders? BINGO!!!!!!!!!! Darn, I wish we had a prize! The topline is probably the single most distinguishing characteristic of the breed. From the American breed standard: Topline-- Stands lower at the withers than at the loin with no indication of softness or weakness. Attention is particularly called to this topline as it is a distinguishing characteristic of the breed. Well done! Kristine |
| Now that someone has guess it Kristine, I was always told a good topline is what made them able to drive & pivot so well when herding or droving. People have always been amazed how quickly they can "stop on a dime" considering how big of a dog they are & in some cases pretty heavily boned. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Now that someone has guess it Kristine, I was always told a good topline is what made them able to drive & pivot so well when herding or droving. People have always been amazed how quickly they can "stop on a dime" considering how big of a dog they are & in some cases pretty heavily boned.
That's basically the reason given, but does it really set them that far apart from other square breeds? (just thinking out loud & considering quarter horse conformation since that's probably the closest equine comparison). I'd love to be able to watch comparison videos. Which breeds would you compare them to? I think my instructor was reacting to the exaggerated appearance of the topline thanks to the way we trim. I explained the topline is nowhere near as sloped as it may look and that you need to get your hands under the hair to feel it, but I think I'll bring a bald dog along some day anyway for better illustrative purposes. Ironically, of my crew, as best I can tell, it is Sybil who has superior cutting abilities as compared to her sister, who in turn has the better topline, balance and angulation. Her sister has it on the flat of course, thanks to superior reach & drive and how balanced she is. But I would expect her to also be able to outmaneover Syb in tight spots, but she doesn't. Now to figure that one out
I really need to be watching more video of these kind of things. Preferably when they're bald. Kristine |
| I have alwqays suspected that the angulated top line was more related to stamina than manueverability. these dogs were supossed to cover a lot of ground with that "easy gait" Is it possible, although I have no gnetics or orthopedic background, that this odd top line is related to that? that and running down hill - if I remember my equine structures properly shorter front legs equals easier time runing on hills.
Also I could just be water logged - is it ever going to stop raining in NY? |
kerry wrote: I have alwqays suspected that the angulated top line was more related to stamina than manueverability. these dogs were supossed to cover a lot of ground with that "easy gait" Is it possible, although I have no gnetics or orthopedic background, that this odd top line is related to that? that and running down hill - if I remember my equine structures properly shorter front legs equals easier time runing on hills.
Whatever the reason, the net result is that they have fat ass compared to other dogs.  |
Cadenza wrote: Whatever the reason, the net result is that they have fat ass compared to other dogs.
Ahem, we prefer to refer to that as the dog being - ahem - pear shaped.
Or, as the Am. standard describes the big butt feature: Body-- Rather short and very compact, broader at the rump than at the shoulders, ribs well sprung and brisket deep and capacious. In reference to their fat bu, eh, I mean hind quarters, the (Am.) standard states: Hindquarters Round and muscular with well let down hocks. When standing, the metatarses are perpendicular to the ground when viewed from any angle. I don't really think the topline is the reason for the large derriere, but this is a breed that should dig in and drive off their big bottom. If you looked at the sighthound you have depicted running with your boy at a standstill, you would probably discover that this dog has a rather roached back (topline). Different function. I've seen the badly balded Garfunkel of this thread naked before. His topline tends more towards level. But with any amount of hair on him, his butt still seems big and, like Pam says - and having met him I have to agree - you gotta love him no matter what. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Anyway, when you shave an Old English down all you're doing is removing one recognizable aspect of the breed. The things that set an OES apart from other breeds are called "breed type". They are a grouping of characteristics which collectively tell us that this is an OES and not a Poodle or a Dobe or a Beardie or a PON or a....?
So, pop quiz: what are five characteristics that all OES should share that set our breed apart from the rest. (Conformation people need not apply and no fair cheating and looking at the breed standard. OK, unless you absolutely need to) Anybody care to give a shot? One, several, all? There are more than five, and a couple that are really key, but let's put that as a minimum. 1. Docked Tail (at least, around these parts) 2. Big head with wide muzzle that is blocky and fairly short 2a. Big black nose (this alone isn't definitive, but with the above it works) 3. Body length same/similar to height 4. Gait 5. Deep bark (playtime excepted) 6. Topline (already mentioned) How'd I do? |
Craig Duffield wrote: 1. Docked Tail (at least, around these parts) 2. Big head with wide muzzle that is blocky and fairly short 2a. Big black nose (this alone isn't definitive, but with the above it works) 3. Body length same/similar to height 4. Gait 5. Deep bark (playtime excepted) 6. Topline (already mentioned) How'd I do? How well does my dog conform to the breed standard? He's so intelligent and well behaved, if I wasn't so busy with him already I would have been tempted to backyard breed him. It's too late now, he's neutered!  |
Craig Duffield wrote: 1. Docked Tail (at least, around these parts)
Maybe I should look up the Canadian standard? According to the American one:Tail-- Docked close to the body, when not naturally bob tailed. 2. Big head with wide muzzle that is blocky and fairly short Yup! More formally, the standard says: Skull-- Capacious and rather squarely formed giving plenty of room for brain power. The parts over the eyes (supra-orbital ridges) are well arched. The whole well covered with hair. Stop-- Well defined. Jaw Fairly long, strong, square and truncated. Attention is particularly called to the above properties as a long, narrow head or snipy muzzle is a deformity. Of course, you and I (when reviewing it in my own mind), both missed one of the most important aspects of the head: Head-- A most intelligent expression. I don't know about you but I'm still waiting for one of mine to display the above. I'm not quite sure what they mean...does it mean they're awake? 2a. Big black nose (this alone isn't definitive, but with the above it works) Very good! Important enough to be mentioned in the standard: Nose-- Always black, large and capacious. 3. Body length same/similar to height Yes, again: Proportion-- Length (measured from point of shoulder to point of ischium [tuberosity]) practically the same as the height. Absolutely free from legginess or weaselness. 4. Gait When trotting, movement is free and powerful, seemingly effortless, with good reach and drive, and covering maximum ground with minimum steps. Very elastic at a gallop. May amble or pace at slower speeds. 5. Deep bark (playtime excepted) His bark is loud with a distinctive "pot-casse" ring in it. 6. Topline (already mentioned) How'd I do? Hot diggitity! Very nice!! I do believe you'd be able to recognize a hairless OES...
Kristine |
| I reckon these dogs are where people got the idea for drag racers!
Archie is a right old front end croucher. Back to shaving the poor old thing, I couldn't imagine what Archie would look like with his coat shaved he is 11 inches in places. Yes he has one amazing bear shaped lolloping bum! |
Mad Dog wrote: Head-- A most intelligent expression.
I don't know about you but I'm still waiting for one of mine to display the above. I'm not quite sure what they mean...does it mean they're awake? :lol: :lol: :lol: When do I get to see an intelligent expression? I see playful, I see pensive, I see trouble, I see thinking (scheming?), but I don't think I get intelligent all that often. He must save it for when I'm not looking. Not entirely related, but I noticed when I was last shaving Barkley down that even when his coat is short (currently about 1/2"), it's still quite profuse (hurray, that's in the standard too!). It doesn't really have the correct texture until it's about 2 inches long or so (feels so soft when it's short, but that doesn't last long). Is this because the undercoat is exposed and I've cut off all the longer guard hairs? |
Craig Duffield wrote: When do I get to see an intelligent expression? I see playful, I see pensive, I see trouble, I see thinking (scheming?), but I don't think I get intelligent all that often. He must save it for when I'm not looking.
Must be what mine are doing too... or maybe the founders mistook scheming for intelligent? Not entirely related, but I noticed when I was last shaving Barkley down that even when his coat is short (currently about 1/2"), it's still quite profuse (hurray, that's in the standard too!). It doesn't really have the correct texture until it's about 2 inches long or so (feels so soft when it's short, but that doesn't last long). Is this because the undercoat is exposed and I've cut off all the longer guard hairs? That sounds about right. When I just recently shaved my boy dog down (close), I noticed how much softer his coat feels. Yet once it starts to grow out it gets that coarse feeling again. I've (half-jokingly) threatened to circulate a petition to allow the breed to be shown shaved. Not require, permit. A couple of reasons: (1) keeping them in "show coat" is not particularly practical for a working dog and (2) (this from a long time breeder - I've thought it, but she articulated it) presenting them in show coat is a very high barrier of entry to showing an OES for a new person. (i.e. maybe more people would be interested in showing them if the coat itself didn't have to take over their life). It has the added benefit that it would be harder to hide structural flaws. I was kind of surprised when the breeder in question agreed with my half-hearted suggestion. She cautioned that they'd have to have sufficient length of coat to illustrate proper coat texture. I asked her how long she though that would be and she suggested an inch. I'll keep an eye on the boy and see if that holds true with him. Oh, and as for showing them cut down, don't anyone hold your breath
Kristine |
OOOO wouldn't that be nice!!!!  I love my girl's coat and it is a beautiful one but she could you imagine the number of people who would show if the coat wasn't an issue - as in length and foo fooing?
Ahh we can dream can't we? I'd like to see them shown shaved for three years. lets actually see what is under those coats and which dogs come out ahead - can you tell I decided not to go to the nationals and have nothing to fear   |
kerry wrote: I'd like to see them shown shaved for three years. lets actually see what is under those coats and which dogs come out ahead fear Part of the OES and what makes them is the "Profuse all weather Coat", a good judge and one that "Knows" the breed is a Hands on Judge (touchy Feely), feeling the body all over and moving them around the ring to see if there is any structural problems. In coat or out, if the make up of an OES is not correct, wether a topline or flat, cow hocks, shoulder lay incorrect etc etc no amount of coat or lack of it will hide those faults when the dog is moved around the ring and gone over by a judge. Texture should never be sacrificed to length is another part of what makes up an OES, they need that texture to ensure a weatherproof correct coat. I've seen OES with long glamourous coats but soft and a dog not so coated in length winning because of correct harsh texture. Sorry OES are suppose to HAVE a Profuse Coat, having them shaved off in breed lectures for judges in training helps as an aid to see known faults, but in this breed the coat is part of there overall makeup and character too.
They are a touchy feely breed with hands all over when they are being judged, so no amount of coat or lack of it will hide faults if they are not structured to the standard. Shaving them for the showring might make it easier for presentation, but you are taking away what is part of them "A Profuse Coat" I always say if you want to show and you don't want the long, thick harder to manage coat then a short coated breed is probably better |
| May be, Lisa. But the breed ring coat is not remotely practical, rather an artificial standard for showing purposes only that merely seems to get more and more extreme over time. I mean, come on, when you have to tease eye slits into the head coat so the poor dog can see...What self respecting working dog has to bring a stylist with her to the field so she can see the sheep??!!!
I say this a bit tongue in cheek, please understand that, but some days I think we've truly become an embarrassment to the herding/pastoral group and I keep waiting for the day someone has the guts to toss us out on our big, fluffy behinds for masquerading as having a working breed and tell us to get our sorry selves into what we call the non-sporting group here (used to have a job, maybe, but sorry, no more).
Profuse to me does not have to refer to the length of the coat, but rather that the undercoat is profuse (sufficiently thick) and the guard hairs have texture. Pesonally I think you need more than an inch to illustrate that, but I could probably be persuaded otherwise. That alone certainly gives more than sufficient protection. Anything much beyond simply collects every twig, bush, burr and I don't know, maybe the occasional field mice and a passing raccoon for all I can tell, in a three mile radius. Evidently the long time breeder in question agreed with me. As I said, I was surprised. Well, shocked is more like it. She's a professional groomer, among other things, her dogs always look lovely and I fully expect that even if a shorter clip is allowed, they'll still be shown in full show coat. But she's seeing the bigger picture. Believe me, there are many, many judges - even ones who should know better - who have no idea how to correctly go over an OES. This from breed mentors who struggle to get them to put their hands into the hair and on the dog, and to do so correctly. Just this past weekend a friend of mine commented that a long time judge had examined the top line as follows: push, push, push in three different places - she said he seemed to be looking for suspension
Don't get me started on how some of them go over heads. Or fronts. Or rears. Or take your pick. Maybe your judges in Oz are all wonderfully talented, but we have allbreed judges here whom I swear blind folded couldn't tell an OES from an Afghan Hound on their best day, and, yes, that is an educational issue, but some of them don't even pretend to pay attention to how the dog moves, or, among those who do, can even tell what's what with all that flapping hair. A judge from the UK just last fall told me the situation is much worse there as far as movement is concerned. Poodles in this country, at least, and are now permitted to be shown in I think it's called a hunt clip. Frankly, for them, I think it's too little, too late. Maybe the same is true of us. Hopefully not. I stand by what I've always said: the OES as a breed is more than a pile of hair, but unfortunately for show purposes, that's what we've reduced them to. Mind you, I suspect they'll always be shown that way as what we call specials here and knowing what goes into growing and protecting that hair and the artistry that shapes it, I have a lot of respect for the talented people who dedicate themselves to doing so. But I truly believe an insistence that this is the only way the breed can be shown will only serve to hurt the breed in the long run. I think there's room for both in the ring. I don't think we'll see it any time soon, but one thing is for sure, if you ever start seeing clipped dogs winning in the ring, they will have to be quality dogs because there's nowhere to hide. Kristine |
| I agree with Kristine - just look at the show ring coats in the old photos - the standard hasn't changed and if a profuse coat 50 years ago meant what it said - a dog with a very heavy weather proofed coat and it was seen in working dogs, why are we now masquerading as powder puff dogs?
Miss Marley can't see not to walk into the coffee table (and yes she has been Cerfed there is nothing worng with her eyesight) without her hair pulled up or parted. She certainly can't herd sheep without a hair stylist as Kristine said. I'd rather prove my dog doing that than with a head the size of an overgrown basketball in the show ring - sorry nothing against showing just the extremes we have gone to. |
| OK, Kerry, good thing we live this many hours apart.
The flip side of the argument, playing devil's advocate here, could be that it's called SHOWING for a reason. Part of that is not just the dog, but how the dog is presented, and, as you and I both know, learning how to present an OES well is a tremendous task. Allowing dogs to be shown clipped could be seen as a "dumbing down" of that process. And, to be honest, I think the big poof balls in the ring look adorable. It's just not something that's terribly practical to live with or easy to work with if you have an active dog. Just had agility class so too tired to run and duck Think I made up my mind to shave Sybil though. She's miserable with this much coat.
Kristine |
| I understand showing means well groomed - just I think since we have the potential it has gone overboard.
Sybil will be beautiful no matter what you do to her and just imagine how aerodynamic she will be without the excess coat |
| Do show dogs ever have mats? |
Cadenza wrote: Do show dogs ever have mats?
DO SHOW DOGS EVER HAVE MATS?????? Of course they do! We just have to get those mats out before they go into the show ring!!!!! Or to be really honest with you, we have to get them out BEFORE our mentors notice them......right Kristine? And if you want to have a really nice coat, you have to keep up with the grooming so as not to have to dematt the dog on any kind of regular basis! |
| Yes show dogs have matts too. Cept we are expected to groom groom groom to remove those matt monsters. You actually find if you are regular in your grooming routine and don't leave it go more then a week then the matts don't breed as much Coat transitions aside that is an awfull time the Matt Monsters take hold & breed.
Kristine was it not last year at the Nationals a Clipped off OES got the BIS? In coat or out, if they are structured soundly no fancy trimming or poofing will disguise incorrect structure and movement. They need a certain amount of length to show also no "Browning" in the coat colour (Except at the transition stage from Pup to Junior coat as some can get that ginger colour on the ends of the coat till the new coat is all through and that is usually forgiven a bit at that stage) So if they were clipped for the ring, leaving enough to feel the guard hairs (Texture) and the density of the undercoat, how would they determine if it is a correct coat colour as far as being a mature dog that might if the coat was longer might have browning in the Jacket? Yes maybe the showring presentation of OES is getting too extreme, overscissoring is one aspect that irks me. Some look like they have had lawnmower driven up the back of their butts. Years ago the legs were brushed up and out,fluffed , the fall on the head was just brushed forward over the head (Your OES either had a head or not ) and the back coat just brushed out & forward over the butt to show length of body & Balance them out, same thing too no over puffing the OES they either had a broad butt or not. In our extended standard this is part of it Neither the natural outline nor the natural texture of the coat may be changed by any artificial means except that the feet and rear may be trimmed for cleanliness. |
| Hmmmm,
As long as tall Big black nose Wiggly butt Herding everything in sight and is a Clown of the first order |
lisaoes wrote: In our extended standard this is part of it Neither the natural outline nor the natural texture of the coat may be changed by any artificial means except that the feet and rear may be trimmed for cleanliness. Do you trim the chest? |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Of course they do! We just have to get those mats out before they go into the show ring!!!!! Or to be really honest with you, we have to get them out BEFORE our mentors notice them......right Kristine?
Bwahahaha!! I suspect a secret alliance of mentors where they report our transgressions to each other and share ways to check up on us and make sure we're not doing coat damaging things on the sly
That said, a couple of people I know with male show dogs who shall remain unnamed have committed egregious coat crimes and there are pictures to prove it, but we've vowed to keep the pictures under wraps until they are retired from the show ring
Kristine |
kerry wrote: Do you trim the chest?
No You can see by this photo the long flowing shawl
 |
| thanks I knew they looked different I was always wondering if it was a different coat texture. now I know its more a presentation issue. |
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