Figuring out Fitzwilliam
Here's the latest Fitzwilliam conundrum. He's a total sweetheart at home, my lovey-dovey boy. A little excitable perhaps, but goofy, funny, cuddly & sweet. When Fitz and I are out in public for a walk, he's very timid - but if people approach him the right way (ie calmly & quietly) he's getting quite good - he'll even give kisses once he warms up to people, and he politely sniffs the other dogs. BUT (big, big but) if my husband (Fred) comes along with our little dogs, or my sister/niece come along with their Bouviers, Fitzwilliam becomes a monster. It's horrible. It's heartbreaking. He snarls, lunges, barks, tries to attack anyone approaching us: dogs, adults, kids - they all become targets of his frenzy. It's overwhelming to watch, shocking and sad. I do believe he has the potential to seriously bite someone. Yesterday, Fred and I had him out with the little dogs, testing a prong collar on him (YUCK BTW). A mom walking with her kids was approaching us, Fitz went into a frenzy lunging at the end of his leash, trying to get at them. I'm assuming the prong collar bit into him ... and he bit into me. (It was a very gentle bite and I know that he wasn't even thinking at that point, he didn't know what he was doing; but still, my sweet little boy bit me ... and so I blubbered all the way home. Boohoohoo. I handle things well.  )
So you see, I'm kind of at a loss here. I don't get this behaviour, and I have no clue what to do about it. The closest certified behaviourist I can find is in Seattle (4 hours away), I've got a call into a local trainer, and I've got you, oh wise OES forum members. HALP! |
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| Is there Obedience classes held near where you live?
If you can find something near you and attend on a regular basis/weekly it would help to how he is behaving and also the socialisation aspect will be extemely good for him and you too with how to deal with this situation of strangers, the unknown and other dogs before it does end up with him biting someone or another dog. He needs the socialisation aspect as he is displaying a fear aggression situation and a Top Dog dominance problem. Hope it works out and definately see if you can attend something like that on a regular basis to help him socialise better, introduce him to new situations like other dogs and people, better controll on him and as well learning both of you lead manners when out in the big wide world, it will also boost his confidence of the big wide wonderfull world.  |
| OK, not good. How old is this little miscreant, anyway?
Some thoughts: Sounds like he's showing protective/aggressive behavior over what he appears to think is HIS pack. You need to show him YOU are in control of the situation before he decides what is an appropriate response on his own when encountering strangers. Anticipate the situation if you see someone approaching on a walk, bring him onto a short lead, and put yourself in between Fitz and the strange person/dog/child as they get near. If he lunges at them, correct by bringing the leash upward sharply, block him from them and establish eye contact with Fitz until he behaves— then when he does, praise. I don't like prong collars BYW— not at all. I much prefer a halter-type collar like a gentle leader, properly fitted, for a pulling-lunging dog. I know many people will disagree but there it is. A prong collar inflicts pain by its very design and I won't have any part of it. |
| I have a slightly different issue but my strategy might help. Maggie gets superexcited when she sees people or dogs coming towards us on the sidewalk. When I see her notice someone coming towards us and start getting amped up, I walk her off onto an adjacent property, driveway, or even cross the street and ask her to sit so that the others can pass with out Maggie trying to jump and lunge to greet them. I think holding them in place in the presence of stimulation can make them overreact where adding just a little bit of distance can really reduce the stimulation. Over time, she is getting better and better at controlling herself so we don't have to go as far for her to remain calm. I don't know if this would work for fear-based aggressive/protective responses, but it might be worth a try. |
The "little miscreant" (  ) is 8 months old. He has finished puppy kindergarten and basic obedience - he did very well at both, surprisingly well actually. He was like the second best behaved dog there, if you can believe that. Even though it was correction-based training, he never needed a correction (and I used treats anyway). The trainer has seen his behaviour potential outside of class though - she was worried and very unimpressed, but she didn't give me any advice at the time; I get the sense that this is out of her league. She did tell me that Fitz is WAY more intelligent than Fred & I are giving him credit for, and that he's very manipulative (especially with Fred who's a big pushover.) She mentioned that cops and caregivers make the worst dog owners. Humph.
I guess it does seem like fear aggression to me too --- with some dominance and the need to protect the pack, which is weird, but hey ... that's Fitzwilliam for you. Anticipating the situation and having a plan to deal with it is great, exactly what I need - since what I've been doing so far is anticipating the situation, getting really anxious, and freezing. That hasn't been working well.
I will try to get my head together and be in control of the situation. And ... advanced obedience starts soon too. I'm not giving up on the miscreant yet! |
| I would do as Val stated.
Be observant, and recognize the triggers to his behavior. Best is if you can head them off before it escalates into the frenzy. Literally, head him off into a different direction. Break his line of sight with the other thing (dog, whatever) that is getting him going. Watch him - the stare comes 1st, then the behavior. You want to break the stare and prevent the behavior that follows. About the collars. I am more a fan of the pinch than the gentle leader. Both need to be worked with in a calmer setting 1st. The pinch got his attention, but he nipped back at you - mistaking you as the source. However, I feel that the collar is a better option than the damage a huge out of control lunge could do to his head and neck from the gentle leader or halti. He could do serious damage to his neck and spine in one lunge. About the last one - your sentence that he was lunging at the end of the lead, trying to get to his target. No wonder the pinch got him, and then the nip at you. The whole scene screams of disaster. It would have gone much better if you had more control in the beginning. At the sight of his potential trigger, call him to you. Reward, then work from a position that he is used to. He has been to training classes, so use that knowledge and routine. Use your "leave it", and "watch me" commands. Use big praise and a real good treat. Quickly and discreetly, move to a distance where he has a chance to suceed. Get past the object, and be super happy with him. Never let him get into the stare mode with the object. Use a snappy pull on the collar if you need to get him back (physically and mentally), then totally focus on him and working together. Be a physical visual shield with your body if you need to. You need to make yourself more interesting and better than whatever is tempting him. That's where the basics you get in your training classes will really help out. If you don't have basic tools to fall back on in a crisis, you will have a much harder time getting you both through this. This is very much a workable problem. You need to get it under control now though, before it is an automatic response to anything that he is unsure about. |
| Thank you all - this is good, great ideas and hope! I feel better!
On the paths and dykes where we usually walk, there's no way to avoid anyone, other than turning back and heading in the opposite direction. And wouldn't that kind of avoidance just teach him more fear? Wouldn't I essentially be telling him that approaching people & dogs should be run away from because they're dangerous? What I will try, at the sight of a trigger, is standing in front of him - facing him - and therefore breaking his line of sight, make him sit, and use a snap on the collar when necessary. I do something similar when teaching him to be calm when someone's at the front door. I stand - facing him - between him and the door, using "sit" and my body language (tapping into my inner John Wayne  ) to have him stand down. It works SO well!
So that's the plan so far. Does that sound about right? Am I getting it yet? Now I just have to build up the courage to try it. Thankfully it's pouring rain today - my excuse, sticking to it. 
As for the prong collar - I really don't like it. One, it gets all tangled up in Fitz's fur, which is a pain in the neck. Two, I've heard people say it doesn't actually hurt. So (don't try this at home) naturally I had to test this by trying it around my own neck. Gentle tug .... OUCH! Pain in the neck! And it's scarey, it really feels like those prongs are teeth about to sink into my jugular. Which I guess is kinda the point, but geez. So I don't feel good about using the prong collar - but I can see how the gentle leader could actually be dangerous for Fitz at this point (it certainly doesn't stop him from lunging) so prong collar it is. Quote: You need to get it under control now though, before it is an automatic response to anything that he is unsure about.
This is exactly what I'm afraid of. |
| I felt that way about the prong collar at first. I amanged to have dogs for 20 ears without needing to resort to it. However, our Golden Retriever, Ben is way too smart for my good. He is a huge Golden, over 100 lbs and stands so his head is at my hip (I have long legs and am pretty tall for a woman). He was too stuborn and strong for the choke collar to work, so I decided to try a prong collar. He doesn't mind it at all and will hold stil while I put on. After some initial training with it, he never pulls with it on. So the fears about being mean are groundless. We also use it with the same results on the girls.
In many ways, I feel like a failure since I used to walk 2 Sheepies and an Irish Setter all at once, with choke chains and the leashes laying across my shoulders (not really safe thing to do in all areas). And all three were heeling perfectly, side by side. |
| Is there anywhere else with more space to walk him - at least for this time?
If he isn't out of control and you can keep his focus - go for it. I just think your odds of being successful are less in the tight space. If you can't go elsewhere, I would say that it is better to retreat and stay in control, than to try and pass and have him lose it. And YES - use the same technique and body language you use for doorways. It will help that 1) it is a behavior that he will recognize, and feel comfortable with and 2) it will give YOU more confidence to use a technique that you know works. Timing and mental strength really is most of the battle here. Think strong, positive thoughts. Expect him to behave, and he probably will! |
| 8 months is just the right time for reactivity to rear its ugly head.
turning and walking away from something doesn't teach him to fear things - rather it teaches him a strategy to deal with startling or fearful things. Don't expect instant results there are none - regardless of what you will be told by some non positive trainers. Celebrate the little victories and be prepared to do a lot of reading and conferring with others who have similar issues. there are Yahoo lists for fear ful dogs, reactive dogs and shy dogs. some of them have great info. Also check out Control Unleashed and its Yahoo list. Alot of what a behavorist will do with you is give you reading and homework assignments. check out positive trainers and any seminars they might be hosting with leslie mcdevitt or susan clothier among others. And be prepared to learn a lot. Apparenly you are in for a life journey and Fitzwilliam has something to teach you. You may also need to readjust your expectations for a bit about socialization situations for your dog. and last but not least you may end up considering medication. keep an open mind and do what is best for your dog - regardless of what others may say or imply. Only you really know your dog and what is best for him. |
| Sounds to me as if he is in charge! and he knows it. Maybe over guarding?
He needs to have fun taken away. He needs to know when you are not happy that he'll be the looser. Firstly you have to somehow get him to accept your husband, before worrying about outside behaviour. Bottom line YOU need to be the one who is in charge. |
| aaargh I wrote a long insightful post about this and the Internet ate it!!!!!
Your dog is over threshold, the little dogs are too much for him to handle and he knows mom says he can't eat them - so he turns on the mom and her kids and then you. You have a lot of work to do to build his confidence- in you. keep him away from what you know bothers him. Sounds like there is more than one "little dog", bring one, on lead into the room with Fitz (on lead) and ignore the other dog. give fitz praise and goodies as long as he ignores the other dog - if he reacts remove the two of them to a greater distance and try again. It is a process. Read read read and find a good IAABC behaviorist or someone they recommend in your area. I would write more but I am having posting issues and forget PMs none of them are going out Oh RON???????? |
| "Reactivity" eh? That's a new one on me. From what I've read so far (and yes, I've been doing some reading) it's a term that describes dogs that overreact to certain stimuli - usually by barking and lunging in an out of control way. It's like the fight/flight instinct on overdrive - and once a dog is in that state, he/she is no longer thinking, no longer capable of learning, just instinctively reacting to a perceived threat.
If I understand it correctly then, I think reactivity describes Fitz's behaviour to a tee. The presence of our little dogs when people/dogs are approaching us puts him over his "threshold" - he just can't handle the extra stimulation, and his fight/flight instinct kicks in. And YES - I've learned from experience now: you guys are right, I SO need to have more space between us and approaching people/dogs! I can't do anything with him unless I have that space - because once he slips into that reactive state, it's game over for the day. Somehow I've got to keep him "under-threshold" - and the only way I can think to do that is lots and lots of space. Like half a mile. Or so.
My new worry: I take him to see my mom every week. He does really well with the residents of the care facility where mom lives, he's as gentle as a lamb and they LOVE to see him, as does my mom! But the other day, a couple of visitors there started approaching us from down the hall, walking directly towards us. Fitz started backing away, looking very anxious, very uncomfortable. Now I'm worried: could he have the potential to cross that threshold into uncontrolled reactivity even at the care facility? Should I even risk taking him there now? Sad.  |
| Ahh the biggest problem with a reactive dog is you can't control their environment - somebody could come along and have another dog at the care facility. I would say if you felt confident that you can always avoid anything that brings him over threshold, by stepping away etc you should be alright. one of the best tools you will find is Leslie McDevitt's LAT(Look at that) you will be amazed at how well it works.
Keep up the reading, you are lucky to be finding out when he is still young what is going on and what you have to do to deal with it. we wasted over a year with old school thoughts and dominance theory with our trainer. Enjoy Fitz and don't feel bad about giving him time away from his triggers. you will be able to work things closer over time. |
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