Fear of noises - sound conditioning - Breeders: comment!
Breeders: please look at the following link: specifically days 25 - 39 and following. What do you think. If this program has any validity, then its your responsibility to desensitive the puppy at the appropriate time before you release him. http://www.vonfalconer.com/puppy.html |
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| WOW...I just read that!!! How interesting is that?????
Thanks |
| The dog doors at my breeder's house are crazy loud when they slam. The dogs are always going in and out of their kennels so I think my puppy is going to come totally desensitized. Every time I'm there, I forget how loud the slam is and I jump but the dogs think nothing of the noise! |
| You know Geaorge you can get cd's of the storms made especially for desensitizing dogs - I haven't used them but they were talked about extensivelly on the reactive and shy dog lists just before fourth of july. |
kerry wrote: You know Geaorge you can get cd's of the storms made especially for desensitizing dogs - I haven't used them but they were talked about extensivelly on the reactive and shy dog lists just before fourth of july.
Yes I'm aware of them. In fact I made a recording of the 4th but have never used. It does seem to me that if the theory is correct, its much easier to raise the pup with noise that send it out carrying that baggage the rest of its life. |
| Interesting article with lots of great and common sense puppy raising advice in the early weeks if you can read between the lines, but a few things even a novice breeder like me knows better than to take as gospel:
(1) Even with their limited senses they do respond to be handled from minute one - you don't have to wait for their eyes (or even ears) to open. They're processing info and even develop scent recognition that extends beyond their own littermates and mom prior to this. I believe strongly in getting in the whelping box with them as soon as they've dried off and had their first meal and I don't let up till they leave home. If they do 
(2) the reliance on absolute dates is misleading. Some develop faster or slower than others, among breeds, within a breed, and even within a litter. Don't assume that "no sounds condition is possible until Day 23". Go by the individual puppy, not a book. (3) you don't wait till day 14 to handle them. You handle them every which way to Monday from the minute they are born and every day thereafter till they leave for their new home. (4) not being handled by one sex or the other during some "critical time period" does not produce a dog who cannot be handled by one gender or the other -improper socialization over all and over a greater time period and (often) faulty genetics does that (an already excessively soft and/or fundamentally genetically shy/fearful dog). Do they specialize in GSDs? Lots of temperament problems in that breed, even the working lines. They used to be a much sounder breed, both physically and mentally. Pity. If this critical period for this particular issue existed, most if not all of my dogs would be perennial basket cases, because there has always been an excess of women in their lives compared to men, and no guarantee I could recruit guys to handle them at exactly the right time. Despite this deficiency in their upbringing, all of my bitches are suckers for men - some of them embarrassingly so  - and I always wish for male judges so dogs and I can flirt with judge (note: dogs are better at it than I am...  )
(5) you do not force wean puppies at 3-4 weeks - not to produce a reliable retriever, not to produce some obedience dog, geesh, this isn't even sound medical advice. Plenty of compulsive retrievers were raised like normal puppies should be raised. Some of them have it hardwired into them genetically, with others it's learned. You cultivate it as a puppy, but weaning them by age 28 being critical to future obedience dogs is just plain nonsense or we wouldn't have a fraction of the OTCH dogs we have (allbreeds) I can't tell if they separate them from their litter mates at this time? That would explain all the remedial work they have to do later with dog-dog socialization and all the talk later about dogs fighting with each other. No thanks. (6) I start putting them on different surfaces as soon as they can walk somewhat reliable, I don't wait past "day 28" unless the puppy is still wobbly on his feet and still needs adequate traction. Which are generally the surfaces I start with. More slippery/wobbly surfaces come later as they become more secure on their feet. You watch the puppy, not the calendar. The exposing them to different surfaces and different items to carry around (being willing to carry less pleasing materials like metal is definitely best learned early) is sounds advice. You just don't have to be so regimented about it. But some people like to come up with recipes for everything. If it helps them remember that they need to cover these things, great. (7) there is no scientific reason to believe Day 57-63 is a specific fear period in all puppies. There are fear periods and if you have any common sense whatsoever you read your dog, again, not the calendar, and act correspondingly. 8. sound conditioning - I don't wait till day 29. They get bombarded with sounds from day one as the puppies will be opening their ears at different times and I just keep adding things as I think of them and go along. Mind you, I've never included gun shots... Unless the litter was born during hunting season, I suppose. If they're building puppies for police work and things like that which take a stable dog to the nth degree, I can see the extra work on the nosie startle responses, - and I'm sure a lot of puppies wash out at various stages - but most puppies who live normal, even competitive lives don't need sound proof booths and the likes to turn into perfectly functioning, non noise phobic companion and regularl working style dogs if the strength of temperament was there to begin with.
More to the point, there is a problem with noise phobias amongst herding breeds. Border Collies are probably the most notorious, but GSDs have issues and we see it in some OES too. Interesting read. Thanks! Kristine |
| My breeder had a 6 month old baby (of the Human variety) in the house. The baby had a walker/chair that would bounce up and down, and created a loud noise when it did so. I attribute that to helping to desensitize my girls to loud noises.
I also read up about the "fear period" so we were ready when it hit. I never did notice any difference with Luna, but Tonks was suddenly afraid of everything. Its good to be aware, so you can help your pup through it. We had no lasting negative affects. Shortly after getting the girls, we had a freak winter thunder storm. It was the perfect opportunity for us to work with them. Every time there'd be a flash of lightening, we'd tell them to sit and offer them a treat. By the time the thunder would peal, they'd be happily chewing on something yummy. We never had a problem after that. |
| They are never to old to learn. We got Harry at six months and he was afraid of everything in the "big city" and hates a lot of noises still to this day like the electric mixer. But I don't baby him either. He has a lot more confidence with a lot of things because I encouraged him to "smell" it - for him that is checking it out.
They are an extremely "fraidy cat" breed and that needs to be kept in consideration that they will still spook occasionally. In fact, I have noticed that sometimes something on the walk will scare Harry and then when he realizes it is nothing (but a rock or his own shadow, etc.) then he will actually act kind of "sheepish" that he was scared. It really is funny - like "oh yeah, well I wasn't scared of that" |
| I have also been told that dealing directly with what they are afraid of makes them less so.
In the case of thunderstorms, I have frequently taken him to the back door where there is an overhang and we "watch it" for a minute. I just never wanted it to be that big of a deal. I do the same as best I can with fireworks even though he isn't crazy about them. I put him on a sit stay in the driveway while the local idiots are popping fireworks. Then when I call him I praise him like crazy for a good sit stay and good recall. He still wants to go inside rather than listen to the nonsense but he does not totally freak out either. |
SheepieMommy wrote: They are an extremely "fraidy cat" breed and that needs to be kept in consideration that they will still spook occasionally.
Nope. They aren't. Or at least they shouldn't be. They should be a bold and confident, yet kind breed. Or, more to the point from the breed standard: Temperament An adaptable, intelligent dog of even disposition, with no sign of aggression, shyness or nervousness. If we're regularly deviating much from that, we have big problems in this breed. Is that the general feeling? 
Mind you, it can take some doing to build confidence if they're under-socialized, which I think is more frequently the case than genetics still (I hope!!!), and in that case they should bounce right back like you describe in Harry. You've done great work with him. I never would have guessed. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: SheepieMommy wrote: They are an extremely "fraidy cat" breed and that needs to be kept in consideration that they will still spook occasionally. Nope. They aren't. Or at least they shouldn't be. They should be a bold and confident, yet kind breed. Or, more to the point from the breed standard: Temperament An adaptable, intelligent dog of even disposition, with no sign of aggression, shyness or nervousness. If we're regularly deviating much from that, we have big problems in this breed. Is that the general feeling? Kristine I love it when I can agree with Kristine  The reason I was drawn to the breed was the solid even nature of the breed. My first OES was a perfect example of that and as a puppy Marley was as well. Morgan has become that way as he grew. I can ask my dogs to do any crazy new thing and they go - okay crazy lady (I know the script cause my daughter still says the same thing when I have an idea )Yes Marley freaked out totally with the fireworks - but I think she is high strung for the breed. Morgan looked up and went right back to what he was doing. These dogs were bred to be a calming influence around the flocks - scaredy cats they shouldn't be. Quote: Do they specialize in GSDs? Lots of temperament problems in that breed, even the working lines. They used to be a much sounder breed, both physically and mentally. Pity.
Now here I can disagree- well I guess it depends on how far back you think the GSD was a stable dog. when I was growing up they were the only dogs that you had to watch out for in any neighborhood. My guess is that if BSL was popular then we would have seen it pointed at GSDs. the only dogs that have ever actually attacked me was a GSD and the neighbors GSD (different town even) bit my baby sister severely. They still make me nervous. |
| Agree with Kristine too, THEY SHOULD HAVE A adaptable, itelligent dog of even disposition with no sign of agression, shyness or nervousness.
Personality/Temperament is passed on by either the sire or dam to the puppies IMO as well as when leaving the nest that the new families do the right thing and socialise the dog properly to all situations. With my last litter, I had noise around them constantly, when I was not there a Radio going on in the puppy room as well. Constant as well was touchy feely all over even when the eyes are ears were not open & constant till they left the nest. Have no issues either on any of them with paws being trimmed/groomed or touched. Mine have been through thunder storms, fireworks, cars backfiring and never been an issue with any of them both older and young. Loud unexpected noises does not faze them at all. If breeding for not only for the standard but for qualities in the temperament as well and the young dog is socialised properly after leaving the nest, then these issues should not faze them at all. Sheepie are suppose to have what I call "Bomb Proof" attitudes & Temperament. Back in the 80's here it was a problem with temperament that has gotten a lot better over time with breeders addressing not only the standard for OES but temperament as well. These dogs have to live with other families so it is important they have the correct Temperament as well. |
| Just to interject here, never having raised a puppy from an age earlier than 10 weeks:
I absolutely believe in inborn temperment characeristics. I absolutely believe in de-sensitizing puppies (and older dogs) to sounds/smells/situations that might cause upset but are of no real danger I absolutely believe that dogs (and kids and other people of all ages) take their cue from those around them, particualrly the leaders. If the people in charge (that's us dog owners) are calm and non-reactive, the dogs can learn to be calm and non-reactive, as well. Our non-verbal cues speak volumes to those around us, particularly canines. |
ButtersStotch wrote: The dog doors at my breeder's house are crazy loud when they slam. The dogs are always going in and out of their kennels so I think my puppy is going to come totally desensitized. Every time I'm there, I forget how loud the slam is and I jump but the dogs think nothing of the noise!
Boy is THAT a good description! You should try to sleep in the kennel with a new litter of puppies while those doors are going! Come to think of it, maybe that is why José might not use them? We thought maybe it was because his eye level is above the top of the doggy-door & he doesn't know to bend to push thru. But maybe it is the noise! But getting back to the thread, none of my dogs seem to have a noise phobia even tho' where I live tends to be pretty quiet except for the occasional farmer shooting at groundhogs. All my dogs started out up there with those crazy doors! |
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