OES in Utah
 We are all wrapped around his paw, at this point, but also have some frustrations. We've owned several dogs during our lives but they've all been retrievers of some sort (Golden Retriever, Labs, German Shorthair, etc.). I've always dreamed of owning a sheepdog but had never been around one until we got Charlie. Man, is he different than our other dogs!!  They've been fairly easy to train while he looks at us with the "You want me to do WHAT?" look! We've been through the puppy classes and he did fairly well, when he wanted to. Our main frustration right now is coming when we call him. Our backyard is fenced so if he chooses to stay out, fine...whatever. Our front yard, however, is not and this is where we have our problems. We've tried all of the suggestions from the classes, blow a whistle and give a prized treat, excited voices, everything we can think of. Each thing we try works for a few days and then he reverts to the "Make me" attitude. Today our daughter, who weighs 110 lbs, carried him from three doors away (he's up to 63 lbs!)! We can't do that anymore!! Short of never letting him out front without a leash, we're out of options. We're open to any ideas!! |
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| Personally, I wouldn't allow him to run free in an unfenced area.
Something could grab their attention and the next thing you know they are running for the street. 
I would also enroll in a basic obedience class. |
| I agree with Pepsi's mommy, I would stick to the fenced in yard. There are different levels of obedience classes. Step up to the next level. That may help. |
| I would NEVER let him out without a leash in an unfenced/non-secure area. Ever. It's just not safe with any dog because no recall is 100%. Definitely keep working on the recall but don't depend on it. (I'm not scolding, I swear, I just don't want a dog to ever get hurt!)
My dogs are almost 3 and 4 years old with excellent recall and they never even set foot on the front porch without a leash. I can't imagine how I'd feel if the one time they slipped up on coming back when I called, one of them ran out into the street and got hurt. |
| OOOH! Another Utah family!
I wonder...
We have several members in the state of Utah, I wonder if you're close by! (I'm sure they'll chime in soon!) |
| I agree...never anywhere except the back yard unleashed. I love them too much to ever risk loosing one to a momentary distraction. I know too many people who have lost dogs to a dash into the street without a leash!!!
It is a game with sheepies too. When you have some training under your belt he will usually come when called. It's a sheepie game my OES boys have always played in a fenced yard. Nigel is 14 months and is only now starting to come in from the fenced back yard when I call him in...and only when "I" call him. Drives my daughter crazy! |
The ONLY place my dogs are ever off lead that isn't at least a 4 foot fence is in the obedience ring. I can get pretty dependable recalls 99% of the time. But the 1% when something else is more interesting can be disasterous. Puppy classes are one thing. They are set up to make the puppy learn some basic skills, socialize with other canines & enjoy working with their handler (owner). A good solid basic obedience class using what we call "the praise & reward" method will really set the ground work for you & your boy. This breed is stubborn. They don't like to waste energy. That's why you won't see them repeating an activity 100 times like other breeds. Their attitude seems to be "Ok. I see what it is you want. I just did it. Now why are you making me do it again?" The most important thing to accomplish is making the dog want to do what you ask because what makes him happiest is to see you happy! I have found most of the time that you have to get inside their head, make them feel like there is a really good reason to do it & then take it one step further....make them think it was their idea.  And don't be surprised if it takes several 6 week sessions to see some of the results you are lookling for! I am not against negative corrections. Sometimes you do need to make them see you are not happy about something they did. It's just that I think you get further faster with this breed using positive reinforcement. I guess the bottom line is really consistancy. They are like kids. They will test you. Like Mariah who looks at me like "Why do I have to do this? Can't you tell I am a beauty queen?" Yes, Mariah, I know you are beautiful. But you are going to use that nice big brain in your head too! Consistancy in all areas from coming when you call them to finishing a training session on a positive note to finishing a grooming sesssion when YOU say it is time to be done for the night.....not when they are done (even if it means just 3 more brush strokes!  ) |
| I agree... never off-leash. We had a tall railing and gate installed on the front porch specifically so they could go out on the porch with us. Past this point, they are always collared/leashed. It just takes one time to find out that recall isn't 100% and it can have fatal consequences.
Quote: Our backyard is fenced so if he chooses to stay out, fine...whatever.
The rule here is USUALLY  , if you call them once and they don't come, you go get them. If you give them a choice in the matter, then it really isn't a "command"... it sounds like he may have learned "come" is optional.
Have you played recall-games? You might also try training him with a clicker/rewards. They are an intelligent yet strong willed breed. |
| Ah, the recall.
I confess. I have three that I do trust off lead, and I live on a busy four lane highway. Is it smart? Nope. As people have repeatedly said, there is always that one-in-a-million chance even with an exceptionally well trained dog. Then there are the youngsters. I'm beginning to get a decent recall on two of them - Mace is standard issue velcro OES; piece of cake to teach an OES like this a recall. In Sybil's case it's a struggle because she's so darn nosey (literally and figuratively) and so I'm really having to work at it - but my real problem child is the boy dog who was returned to me having learned the fine art of keep away. So even though he wants nothing more than to be with me (which is why I trust the other three - complete velcro - well, two of them. Mad has a mind of her own, but she still prefers to be with me), every so often he'll tuck his butt and do a nice bout of zoomies. Never, ever encourage this dratted game. As long as you have them in a fenced in area (which, of course, is an absolute must at this point with a dog like this) and they want to be with you, the best thing to do is to walk inside and not let the bugger in till he begs. That defeats the purpose of the game. We still play chase - but I insist they chase ME , not the other way around. If he needs to be chased, his sisters are happy to oblige. I have better things to do with my time. The other thing I do is random recalls where they come, we play a quick game of tug, I toss the ball a time or two, or they get a lint-coated treat (hm ) and then I release them. This teaches them that coming to you is rewarding and not necessarily the end of all things good. Too often we only call them to us to come in, to get a bath, to end fun things. I want the recall to be the most fun thing in the world and the one command they never ever think twice about because it could literally save their life some day.
It keep-away isn't too ingrained, it doesn't take long before they slam into the front of you in anticipation and if you have multiple dogs you can always play the "she who got here first gets rewarded game", which REALLY speeds up the recall. Even without, the key is to be the kind of person they'll do anything to be with. And yes, most of them are too smart for their own good. If they do something right and you ask them to do it again, they will either look at you like you're nuts, or try it a different way ("well, you must not have liked it the first time - how's this?") The smart ones are the most challenging to train, but, as Marilyn said, if you can get inside their head, the sky's the limit. Kristine |
| Oh Kristine,
I need you here. I am on my 4th boy who has learned the fine art of keep away. I guess I failed sheepie 101 because my boys always do this. I usually give up and get the girl to chase the brat into a corner for me. We go back to obedience Novice as soon as it cools down a bit. He will get it I am sure as soon as his brain kicks in. I just wish I didn't fall into this trap every time. They must just be smarter than I am. "Sigh" |
| Hi Charlie's family and welcome!
Quote: Man, is he different than our other dogs!! I can SO relate to that! Fitzwilliam (my 8 month old OES) is easily the most confusing dog I've ever known - and I've known and owned a lot of dogs over my lifetime. It seems like there's a lot more going on in that head of his than I've experienced with my other dogs - and I don't mean intellectually, good grief no! I don't intend to imply in any way whatsoever that Fitz is more intelligent than my other dogs ( ) but rather that he is more "psychologically complex". In other words, he's really flipping hard to figure out sometimes. Makes me wonder if that is an OES quality, or just Fitzwilliam.  Quote: as Marilyn said, if you can get inside their head, the sky's the limit.
Which begs the question: HOW do you get into their heads?? 
Fitzwilliam's recall is excellent - 99% even .... when we're at training class or when we're in the backyard. The sound of the treat cupboard opening is enough to make him come a-running, and Mad Dog's suggestion of random recalls that don't end the fun - that works really well. However, once Fitzwilliam steps outside the front door ... not so much recall. Actually, we've got pretty much no recall whatesoever out the front door, and he's way too "psychologically complex" to trust off leash in public anyway at this point. 
BTW - is that Charlie in your avatar? He's very cute! |
| You all have been awesome to help! Thank you!
What I failed to mention is we live on a nice quiet street so there are not many cars at all. Because there are quite a few kids in the neighborhood, the cars go slow. Still, I totally understand the concern about the "one" time. All of our other dogs have come running at full speed if my hubby whistles (still a skill I don't have and probably never will...) or if the rest of us just call their name. It's been really easy to teach all of them. We also NEVER let them outside in the front without at least one of us out there. When we go out, Libby, our 2-yr old Weimaraner/Golden Retriever, goes slightly into the two side neighbors' yards but comes running when we call her. Charlie goes with her but continues on, and on, and on! He loves checking out the other yards (grass greener in the other yard??  ). I guess that's part of making this so hard for us to understand. Charlie also has this amazingly expressive face that seems to talk to you when he looks at you...I'm sure you all see it--it's one of their endearing qualities! Like "Maf," we really wonder what's going on inside his big furry head sometimes!
Kristine, I loved your suggestions and will start working with him immediately!! In the meantime, he will definitely be on a leash whenever he's not in the backyard. |
| It's like anything else. It's in the proofing. You can't presume a dog who skids around the corner into the kitchen when he hears the treat jar being opened ( ) is going to do the same when he steps out the front door to all these new and wonderous things!!!
Dogs don't generalize well and I've found young dogs need to get out and about a lot (in a controlled manner) to get some of that curiousity out of their system. When we're past the house and fenced backyard stage, I often take them to a large dog park - fenced if there is one - and then we play those games there (need to do this at low traffic times unless you want a pack of other dogs following you). Then we progress to a large dog park that isn't fenced but far from the road. With Belle I started with a long line, but discovered my dog was smart enough to know the difference between having something attached to her leash or not, so that's when I started using chase games and recall-reward-releases instead. Her recall is as reliable as it gets. Mad had more of a mind of her own. I still started her off dragging the long line thinking I could at least step on it. But the only thing that happened was it got tangled (we walked in the woods a lot) so I got rid of it and she did fine. It's still a nice back up on some dogs. With her kids I skipped the long line, but I do use pack mentality to reinforce the recall. I.e. I'll take a green dog out with a couple of reliable dogs and call, reward, release (older dogs love this and it never hurts to reinforce this concept). Then I'll gradually up the distraction level. Since I do competitive obedience I teach formal heeling (separately) Having learned from my early mistakes, I teach it all off lead from day one, but in secure areas until I'm sure they've got it. The only draw back is that my dogs tend to heel better off lead than on, but that's partly handling since I don't always practice enough on lead to feel comfortable with the leash in my hand. But on the plus side you end up with dogs that actually learn to pay attention and know it's their responsibility to do so as opposed to using the leash as a crutch. However, if you're going to use this method, your dog HAS to have a reliable recall. And agility is all offlead from day one, so again, a recall is the most critical behavior you can instill in a dog. Don't think you need to start with a young puppy either. I got two of my dogs as adults: Belle when she was 2 1/2 and her daughter, Liz, when she was seven, though in Liz' case I've known her since she was born and worked with her on and off before. I didn't realize the breed was so perplexing Part of the difference, and to be honest I've seen this in poodles too, which is the breed I grew up with, is that more so than any other breeds I can think of, they spend a lot of time studying human behavior. The difference between the two breeds, is that a poodle may use this information to please you (more or less, humor you really - I've known poodles who were smarter than most people I know), while your average OES will put all of her effort into pleasing herself (some just hide it better than others)....So, again, like Marilyn said, if you can convince them it's THEIR idea, you've got it made. They are master manipulators and superb people trainers, but I think that's what makes them so interesting.
Kristine |
| My background before an OES was dogs that sniff and are more interested in what their nose says than what a human says. My family raised Brittannys while I was growing up, and had the occasional basset. As an adult it continued with labs and bassets.
In that regard, the OES have been simple to train.
It sounds like you need to go back to basics, as she has learned that she can get by with not listening to you. Nothing more frustrating and potentially dangerous (for the dog) than one who cheerfully blows you off! The recall has to always be a fun positive thing, and also he needs to learn that it is not optional. You have gotten lots of good advise already. Don't call him unless you have a means to enforce it. Harder with just one dog, easier if you have other trained dogs who help teach the new one. Also, don't call him, then do something unfun. That is the quickest way to kill a dog's recall. Call randomly and praise/treat, then go on doing something interesting. You have to make yourself be more interesting than all the tempting stuff out there - find what makes your dog happy and use it. Some need a treat, some want the loving. In our multiple dog household getting attention from the humans is the number one thing, and ours are all different breeds, ages and personalities. Myself or my husband can call them and get them all on the run - trying to get there 1st. Of course there is a little variation - mine come to me quicker and his to him, but they all come! Always followed by hugs, praise and acting like they are the best thing since sliced bread! Good luck |
Mad Dog wrote: while your average OES will put all of her effort into pleasing herself (some just hide it better than others)....So, again, like Marilyn said, if you can convince them it's THEIR idea, you've got it made. They are master manipulators and superb people trainers, but I think that's what makes them so interesting.
Kristine Kristine: Do you think this may be why a singleton is harder to train? They seem to be so devoted to their owners that they don't care to have their own ideas.........they just concentrate on their owner the majority of the time? |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Kristine: Do you think this may be why a singleton is harder to train? They seem to be so devoted to their owners that they don't care to have their own ideas.........they just concentrate on their owner the majority of the time?
Wow, Marilyn - is this a trick question? It is an interesting one.
Almost every singleton I've ever known, including a couple I've helped raise, has had an incredibly inflated sense of their own importance...Yes, they are also extraordinarily devoted to their owners, but the two prime performance suspects I can think of are also two of the most "creative" dogs I know: Sunny's Luca and Linda Z's Brooke. They'd probably both tell you they're the two of the most difficult dogs they've ever worked with, but not for lack of wild ideas of their own...
Bottom line, I really don't know if there's a generalization here. Maybe there's something else going on so that a singleton with this type of personality tends towards this, and one with that type of personality tends towards that? I know one soft, non-thinking singleton. Her breeders kept her - she was their one and only litter - and her dam never really let her think for herself. She's surprisingly sweet and calm compared to most singletons I know... 
Kristine |
| A thought on using rewards: if you do, you have to let the dog tell you what is rewarding. Many dogs, for instance, could care less about being hugged. This is a human affliction, and one I am seriously guilty of, even as my girl dogs look at me like "oh, for pete's sake, knock it off and get a life, woman!" The boy dog thinks any manner of touching him is too delicious for words, and even an enthusiastic "good BOY!" sends him through the roof with delight
In other words, if your dog doesn't like to play tug, why would this increase the likelihood of him coming to you? Pick something that your dog wants from you and make him work for it. There's an old saying in training that Dawn hinted at that basically dictates that for your dog to want to be with you, you have to be more interesting than dirt. (or sheep, or pheasants, or kids on bikes or other dogs or whatever your dog is hardwired to find enticing). And if you want to use this method, you have to set the dog up to succeed many times at each level - you just work it into your daily life - before you move on. Which means starting out simple and keeping it simple for each step. You don't just call them in the kitchen, get a good recall a couple of times and then take them out on the front stoop when the neighbor's kids are out on their skate boards and think they'll necessarily come when called (haha). You work up to it. If you overface them with enticing distractions before they understand even the basic concept of coming when called just because, you could dangle a steak in front of their noses and even many a chowhound would still rather opt to go play with the kids at that moment in time. And that leads me to another caveat: bribery is not the point. Don't entice them with food or toys in your hand. Surprise them. Keep them guessing. Always acknowledge a nice recall even is it's only with a quick smile and a kind word. I.e. be a person worth coming to. Or, in Sybil's mind, more interesting than dirt
Which reminds me: I'm actually beginning to understand why people like boy dogs - their slavish devotion, while rather intellectually under-stimulating - IS rather relaxing and great for the ego
Fear not, I have Sybil to keep me humble 
Kristine |
| I have a singleton girl who never wants to do what I ask of her. She will do it begrudgingly...but never snaps to it like my boy. I love her, but boys will always be my first pick. |
Sunny has been a serious flight risk when the opportunity presents itself, but she is getting better. Maybe it's age (approaching 20 months) and maybe it's superior training (cough cough), but there is hope - unless there's another dog to go say "Hi!" to. 
Just curious...I noticed two litters locally from that time frame, one from Payson and one from Fountain Green. Charlie come from one of those? |
| Charlie came from the litter in Payson. Are you in Utah? |
| Yep, in Sandy.
I communicated briefly with Lisa(?) from Payson at the time, she seemed like she was going about things the right way and responsibly with her pups. We had our reasons for going another route, wanting an older dog anyway. Our Sunny is the mother of the litter that came from Fountain Green. Since it's the same general area, I've wondered if there is some tie between them, although Sunny had some stint in Delta before going to Fountain Green if I understood them correctly. |
| We've never done anything like this before...always bought "mutts." By the time we decided to get an OES, Lisa's litter was the only one left. That's why he was older (almost 3 mos.) when we got him. From what we could tell, she had done this quite a few times with other dogs although this was Gerdie's first litter. Charlie is purely "pet." We don't plan to show him or anything like that--just enjoy him and his amazingly cute personality!
Have you had others? |
| Others? OES no; dogs yes. Likewise, this is our first foray into a dog without a mixed heritage.
All I will say about the Fountain Green litter is that I don't think it was the best conditions for the pups and less for the mother. I continued to see the ad on ksl for quite some time after Sunny came home with us, I'm not sure if it was for a full month though, and they were born about two weeks before Lisa's litter I think. I think you got the better option. |
Mad Dog wrote: A thought on using rewards: if you do, you have to let the dog tell you what is rewarding.
Kristine that's why Morgan's recall word is cookie!! nothing is better than food in his mind and he can ignore me to the cows come home. I just have to whisper the word cookie though and watch out! I guess I caved when it came to really training him - but you use what works:) He also will never go where he can't see me so he isn't a wanderer. Marley is more like Sybil - "hmm cookie I don't see a cookie? How can I tell if its a good enough cookie for me to eat?" Luckily she has a very solid recall (and stay!) As for the "you want me to do what look" I've always interpreted that to mean "weren't you paying attention - I showed you that trick last Thursday - move on!" |
kerry wrote: [Marley is more like Sybil - "hmm cookie I don't see a cookie? How can I tell if its a good enough cookie for me to eat?" Luckily she has a very solid recall (and stay!)
As for the "you want me to do what look" I've always interpreted that to mean "weren't you paying attention - I showed you that trick last Thursday - move on!" Oh, lord, you're right - they must be related...[groan] My condolences
Oh, get this in the fine game of jumping baby gates. I have to put the gate so high up the door to the cat room at this point (she's still jumping it) that it finally dawned on Che that he can simply crawl under. I know she's doing it at this point just to prove she can - she grins and hops right back out on command. It's a game. She's bored. Maybe I should have taken Dawn up on her offer to bring me some ducks for her to herd, but I really don't have a good recipe for orange sauce...
In the mean time, the "good" puppy - that would be Macy - stands there looking at me like: "How come I can't go in the cat room, huh, huh???" "Because you must miraculously take after your great aunt Belle - you were born good. I'm sorry." Kristine |
| You guys crack me up! Not having any experience with sheepdogs, we're pretty clueless at some of Charlie's antics--SOOOOOOOO different from all the other dogs! Reading your comments helps us understand he's not completely unusual; it's the nature of the furball!! However, I do have to admit, he continually keeps us on our toes!
I teach school and have been home full-time since the beginning of June (we'd had him 3 weeks at this point). If we're home, the dogs are in the house; if we're gone, they're outside in the fenced backyard. Libby does great, wanders around and naps. Charlie, on the other hand, finds stuff in the garage to chew up (a Chilton's manual, boxes, etc.--he's got a cardboard fettish!). We've made sure to make the yard and garage puppy-proof with anything dangerous secured but things we don't even think about seem to be fair game (like books). He's taken to digging mud holes along the fence line after the neighbors water if we leave him outside too long in the mornings. Well, today, there wasn't an option--I had training in Salt Lake and had to leave (I have it tomorrow too). My hubby came home about 1-1/2 hours for lunch after I left and found Charlie covered in mud from head to toe. He'd had a GREAT time digging a hole--not enough to get through--just enough to get completely covered in mud. For the rest of the afternoon, he was good. Can't wait to see what happens tomorrow and especially when I go back to school in two weeks!!
He's a character and we definitely love him to death! It's just interesting trying to figure out the breed!! |
Charlie's Fam wrote: You guys crack me up!
Not having any experience with sheepdogs, we're pretty clueless at some of Charlie's antics--SOOOOOOOO different from all the other dogs! Reading your comments helps us understand he's not completely unusual; it's the nature of the furball!! However, I do have to admit, he continually keeps us on our toes! I teach school and have been home full-time since the beginning of June (we'd had him 3 weeks at this point). If we're home, the dogs are in the house; if we're gone, they're outside in the fenced backyard. Libby does great, wanders around and naps. Charlie, on the other hand, finds stuff in the garage to chew up (a Chilton's manual, boxes, etc.--he's got a cardboard fettish!). We've made sure to make the yard and garage puppy-proof with anything dangerous secured but things we don't even think about seem to be fair game (like books). He's taken to digging mud holes along the fence line after the neighbors water if we leave him outside too long in the mornings. Well, today, there wasn't an option--I had training in Salt Lake and had to leave (I have it tomorrow too). My hubby came home about 1-1/2 hours for lunch after I left and found Charlie covered in mud from head to toe. He'd had a GREAT time digging a hole--not enough to get through--just enough to get completely covered in mud. For the rest of the afternoon, he was good. Can't wait to see what happens tomorrow and especially when I go back to school in two weeks!! He's a character and we definitely love him to death! It's just interesting trying to figure out the breed!! I am not trying to rain on your parade just trying to give some sound advice. Please read about Twiggy before letting your pups outside unattended. I wouldnt want that to happen to you. http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=21016&start=0 |
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