Been told by another dog owner to get Archie done!
My wife was out with Archie the other day, they met a couple who have three Beardies (one being a very nervous rescue who'd never seen the outside world before its rescue) my wife hard Archie on the lead at the time, they said are you not going to let him off, "if that was okay with you" which they said it was, after a bit of very boisterous play of Herd the Beardies the Beardies got quite aggressive towards Archie. Now here comes the crux the woman insisted that we need to have Archie done, have we seen the Vet (Stupid question!) we need to have him done because they can smell Archie that he is intact and that is causing them to be aggressive towards him! Also with some snobbish comments about Archie being our first dog and implying we are not doing the correct thing! All this upset my wife , but she didn't cause a scene, If I had been there, I may have had some choice words for them! Archie is 10 months old in a week or so, I wonder with this breed, how old is the right time to have a male dog Neutered? I feel it is to young yet (we were/are going to get Archie done as I am contractually not allowed to breed him and I will not be showing him - I don't need awards to know what a winner he is!) also what gets my goat is the nerve of this woman, is Archie causing aggresion in other dogs because he is intact? he is the most affable and playful of dogs in other dogs company, I just wonder if the Beardie owners mistake this for an older dogs natrual grumpiness towards playful pups? there are numerous other dogs who Archie regularly plays with without any animossity. Should I be worried about this attitude, or is this a common thing for large intact males to instill this in other dogs? What age would be considered the norm? |
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| I do believe the Beardie people were out of line. That was dog snobbery and just plain rude. OK, I would have thought the same thing, "hmm, when are they going to get that boy neutered??" but I would not have blurted out.
Archie is a young male and they can be a bit over the top. But those were 3 beardies, not a breed to sit back and observe the world. We have 4 herding dogs, one is a young male, one is the timid rescue and the two others are vocal adult Beardies. It is going to be a loud encounter and probably someone trying to be boss. We have been accused of being snobs here, well here is a case of snobbery in person. As for when to have Archie clipped. It's time. He has probably reached 90+% of his size and maturity.......he won't miss the testosterone now. Because you are in control of him, you've not had the pleasure of an 18 month still unclipped and untrained male  That's fun! |
| Those people sound like they were not very tactful but I spend alot of time at dog parks and it is true that often other dogs react badly to a dog that is not neutered. It is not that the unneutered dog is doing anything wrong but the others just act weird and get aggressive towards him. When there is tension at my local dogpark, there is usually an intact male around which makes everyone else act a bit off.
That being said, I agree that you need to do that when it is the right time for Archie. |
| Oliver is 3yrs, he will be 4 in november..
Oliver is still intact, we have not had any problems with him as yet.. We dont show and we not breeding.. He is just our baby boy.. 
So after reading here.. should we think about getting him looked at ? 
We have only ever had bitches, and this is our 1st oes. If we get him looked at now, will it change his personality? |
| Archie being intact had nothing to do with their beardies acting the way they did. These people were using it as an excuse. Which dogs got rowdiest first? The beardies or Archie? How old were their dogs? A young dog is going to play harder anyway. I've never heard anything about other males being able to "smell" that a male is intact. We have intact males that play together all the time & some live at my house & others live with Cathy. The only time we see much of a difference is if we bring a bitch in for breeding. Then we keep all males, intact & neutered, seperated as even the neutered males will exhibit some indications of knowing what is going on.
As for the age to have Archie neutered....what does your contract say & what does your vet say? I myself recommend to my people not too have any of our puppies spayed or neutered until they are mature. I like the bitches to have gone thru at least 1 heat cycle or maybe 2 before spaying. I like the males to be mature...at least 18 months of age. My vet is the one who expalined all this to me. He is a breeder of very good GSD & Rottweilers too. Large dogs need the time to mature. The growth plates need to finish growing. If you neuter too early you end up with a rangy looking dog (taller over all & narrower in the shoulders & rear) most of the time. I have seen this first hand with littermates of our dogs that were neutered at a younger age. Also early altering has some benefits but there is also proof that it adds to some other problems later on (some of them is increasing the % of certain kinds of cancer & hip dysplasia.) There was another thread earlier that listed a lot of this data that was quoted from some fo the top veterinary schools in the country. So you have to weigh the pros & cons for your situation. As for neutering changing the personality of the dog......I am sorry but I don't buy that. Breed lines, environment & training are what shape your dog's personality. And another thing to remember....Not all dogs like each other just becasue they are dogs......just the same as not all humans like each other! |
| If YOU are not having problems with Archie I would put off getting him neutered for a while yet. Even just a couple more months... there is so much information available now that point toward so many health and behavioral issues being due to neutering and spaying too young. |
Can I just quote everything Marilyn said and say ditto?  That really sums it up.
You have to remember there are a lot of people out there who don't have a very good understanding of dogs beyond whatever pop culture tells them and since there is a real bias against intact dogs right now, that makes anyone who has one an easy target. Just smile and move on and do what's best for your dog and hope the people get a handle on their own dogs' rude behavior when that's the issue. I have an intact bitch in agility training who is due to come into season this month. We're training somewhere new so I asked the instructor how she wanted me to handle this. Many places, you aren't permitted to bring a bitch in season to class. Knowing she's a respected Terv breeder and superb trainer, I expected her not to get her undies in a bundle and she didn't. Most of the core members of the club are breeders so there are intact dogs and bitches and people are expected to TRAIN them to behave just like any other dog with any other distraction. Works for me. At the dog park I frequent people who know their dogs have other dog issues can put up a Beware Of Dog sign and have the park to themselves for a little while if they are considerate of others. I pulled in one day with four of mine and saw the sign up and prepared to wait when I noticed that the dog inside was a GSD whom I knew had always played with my dogs without a single issue. His owner saw me pull in and walked over and invited me in with my dogs explaining that because his dog is intact, people had been giving him a hard time and blaming his dog when theirs get into fights, so he decided to not have his dog interact with others. Since he knew mine were fine, we let the five of them play. A grand time was had by all. Three of my four are intact too. 
Kristine |
| I'm so glad you posted this!
We have been having big problems with Ru- well, to be more exact other dogs have a big problem with him 
They all seem agressive. ALL of them  Even when Ru is on the leash and we just walk past another dog also on a leash, the other dog always snarls and gets aggressive. This is always. Every time. I feel so bad for Ru because he just can't make any friends. He is playful of course but the aggression happens even before he gets to sniff another dog. I have been thinking it's because he has not been 'done'. His hormones must be setting these other dogs off surely? I can't think of any other reason for it. It even hapens if the other dogs are on the other side of the street so I'm sure it's not that Ru has bad manners or anything. We have to avoid the Rotties like the plague (and there seem to be hundreds around here) I'm letting him offleash less and less because I'm frightened one will come round the corner.
I really want to keep him in tact. I think our breeder said she has never had to have any of her dogs done. Let us know what you decide to do. Have you had any other experiences like this? Cassie |
ditto marilyn and kristine  
All I would add is (apologies to Beardie owners in advance) they can be ? difficult? I have had two in Morgan's class who love him one minute want to take his head off the other - and he is neutered (although not until he was over a year old for health concerns). I would advise you to wait to have your boy neutered and if you run into these people again, and have issues again politely point out "gee, no body elses dogs ever react this way. What are you doing to help train your dogs over their issues?"  |
| Interesting.
Do you tie his hair up? How long is his coat? Some dogs just have a look about them that sets other dogs off. I've noticed, since I'm out and about lot - shows, training, anything remotely dog related - that an OES presents an odd outline to many dogs and they don't know what to make of it, so they bark first and ask questions later. This happens to my neutered male too when his coat gets long, so who knows? On the other hand, if it happens to Ru all the time...? I mean, there ARE dogs out there who don't get nuts every time they see something new and strange - could it just be his cocky strut? Some dogs do seem to have a target painted on them, but they are rare. Is there a pattern to the dogs that react? Mind you, herding breeds are notorious for being reactive like this - if I had a $ for every BC and sheltie who flipped out at seeing good old spayed Belle wander into their vicinity I've long wondered if it's a "oh my dog! something odd is approaching the flock, it could be a threat!!! reaction. I've also thought there might be a connection to white heads as well as the opposite, very, very dark heads, but that could very well be a fluke.
Many dogs of the working breeds are a different issue. I've noticed they are very keen on reading any dog in their vicinity and with flappy hair and no eyes to speak of, some simply take real offense at an OES on sight. Kristine |
Valerie wrote: Those people sound like they were not very tactful but I spend alot of time at dog parks and it is true that often other dogs react badly to a dog that is not neutered. It is not that the unneutered dog is doing anything wrong but the others just act weird and get aggressive towards him. When there is tension at my local dogpark, there is usually an intact male around which makes everyone else act a bit off.
That being said, I agree that you need to do that when it is the right time for Archie. That's very true. The problem became so bad at our day care, they won't allow any intact dogs anymore (even show dogs) because it drives the other dogs insane. It's not the fault of the intact dog, but it does just happen. I would talk to your breeder and ask what she suggests in terms of neutering him. She should know her dogs best and their growing patterns and can probably suggest to you a suitable time for Archie. |
The long hair is a good point Kristine. One of the Rottie owners says he's only like this with Ru & thinks it's because he is too fluffy We always tie his hair up. What about you Archie's Slave? Any thoughts on the huge waggy hairy tail too?  |
ButtersStotch wrote: Valerie wrote: Those people sound like they were not very tactful but I spend alot of time at dog parks and it is true that often other dogs react badly to a dog that is not neutered. It is not that the unneutered dog is doing anything wrong but the others just act weird and get aggressive towards him. When there is tension at my local dogpark, there is usually an intact male around which makes everyone else act a bit off. That being said, I agree that you need to do that when it is the right time for Archie. That's very true. The problem became so bad at our day care, they won't allow any intact dogs anymore (even show dogs) because it drives the other dogs insane. It's not the fault of the intact dog, but it does just happen. I would talk to your breeder and ask what she suggests in terms of neutering him. She should know her dogs best and their growing patterns and can probably suggest to you a suitable time for Archie. I really don't have much experience with intact males, but shouldn't neutered males and all females be trained past a reaction to the hormones? seems like a convenient excuse to me perpetuated by the neuter at infancy brigade. My day care never had a problem with Morgan when he was intact and are fine with Mr Newfie Puppy - they know he will be intact until at least 15 months. when I bring my intact girl in they ask if she is near a season (and I remind them the Diva prefers isolation ). I think it is too easy to blame the intact dogs. |
| Has anybody noticed Cesar Milan's gentle partner, the pitty named Daddy, is intact? This is the dog he uses to settle down other unstable dogs.
I wonder how much aggression is being misapplied. That is we don't allow dogs to butt sniff when that is normal dog behavior at first greeting. Many people encourage nose to nose when that can be an aggressive posture. We label the dog that snaps as the aggressor when actually the victim may have violated common dog behavior code and was being told off. We try to rationalize dog behavior by human standards but not only do dogs not speak our language, they are a totally different animal with millions of years of their own society structure. |
kerry wrote: ButtersStotch wrote: Valerie wrote: Those people sound like they were not very tactful but I spend alot of time at dog parks and it is true that often other dogs react badly to a dog that is not neutered. It is not that the unneutered dog is doing anything wrong but the others just act weird and get aggressive towards him. When there is tension at my local dogpark, there is usually an intact male around which makes everyone else act a bit off. That being said, I agree that you need to do that when it is the right time for Archie. That's very true. The problem became so bad at our day care, they won't allow any intact dogs anymore (even show dogs) because it drives the other dogs insane. It's not the fault of the intact dog, but it does just happen. I would talk to your breeder and ask what she suggests in terms of neutering him. She should know her dogs best and their growing patterns and can probably suggest to you a suitable time for Archie. I really don't have much experience with intact males, but shouldn't neutered males and all females be trained past a reaction to the hormones? seems like a convenient excuse to me perpetuated by the neuter at infancy brigade. My day care never had a problem with Morgan when he was intact and are fine with Mr Newfie Puppy - they know he will be intact until at least 15 months. when I bring my intact girl in they ask if she is near a season (and I remind them the Diva prefers isolation ). I think it is too easy to blame the intact dogs.I think the problem is more that one dog smells something interesting, becomes obsessed and others join in the excitement of that dog, making the intact dog nervous and making the whole situation tense, turning the whole place into a mad house. It's not the intact dog's fault at all (since a similar situation can happen the same way with a neutered dog if another takes a liking to him) but it can change the entire mood of the pack. Not to mention, in day care, there are so many different personality/training levels to begin with so everything isn't always as balanced as it could be. In the case of this poster, three against one isn't always the best ratio and, neutered or not neutered, dogs can gang up. My boys stick to each other and act like a team and can get overly boisterous. Never mean, but I can see how it could scare another dog in certain situations if we didn't calm them down. It was actually our old day care that stopped letting intact dogs come so it may just have been that they were just making excuses, too. Excuses were the reason we stopped going there. I just called the day care we use now to ask them what their policy was and they said they're okay and they treat them the same way they would any other dog during their "evaluation" day. Good to know. |
| I don't think it is up to anyone else who you meet in the street to tell you to have your dog neutered, after all they don't know him. If their dogs get upset when they pass him that is for them to deal with.
From George being about 6 months old other dogs have been aggressive towards him (not all just an odd one or two). We have put this down to the fact that because he was/is bigger than many other dogs but young they try to put him in his place. He just walks away. We have also found it reduced when we had him puppy cut for whatever reason. We spoke to our vets about neutering him and they have said they will do the op but (contraversally) don't recommend having him done. She did spend a long time talking to us about him and she has walked with us with her dog, and I am happy with her recommendation (at least for now) I also spoke to the breeder who is in agreement with the vets recommendation. So fo now he stays with his bits. |
SheepieBoss wrote: We try to rationalize dog behavior by human standards but not only do dogs not speak our language, they are a totally different animal with millions of years of their own society structure.
Ain't that the truth! We also need to stop feeling mortified if our dog does even one quick warning growl-snap at another dog. It may be well justified. Last fall my vet had two rescue dogs in to take x-rays of their hips for the CHD study the breed's participating in: a neutered 7 mos old whom she was fostering, plus a spayed 9 mos old with her new owner. The boy dog got a bit too personal, the girl dog told him off, and then they were both fine except for the owner of the bitch who started chastising her girl. Vet and I both looked at her incredulously: "kiddo, she did the right thing". Her main concern had been that the vet and I would get upset with her dog, plus she was afraid her dog would be labeled vicious. OK, nobody wants people to think their dog is vicious. Of course not. But the problem with that is the message the dog gets is: "I can't communciate to the other dog that he's being rude without getting reprimanded, so it's either live uncomfortably with the dogs around me (which sets her up for "other dog issues") or get yelled at" - a no-win situation. Kristine |
| I know there is some controversy about neutering, if and when, etc. I had both my males neutered at 5 months of age, without any of the growth issues described, mostly because I knew they would never be bred, and I wanted to prevent testicular and other hormone related cancers.
So I have absolutely no experience with intact males. However, my neutered, shaved sheepies inspire the oddest reactions in other dogs. Quincy mostly got barked at - by terriers usually . Poor Oscar though. Most dogs go after him with a growl/snap/snarl. There must be something about his posture or his approach that sets them off. I haven't figured it out yet. A dog might let him sniff for a second, then whammo, they snap at him. I wish I knew what vibe he was giving off.....
Laurie and Oscar, the Socially Inept |
Hint of Mischief wrote: The long hair is a good point Kristine. One of the Rottie owners says he's only like this with Ru & thinks it's because he is too fluffy
We always tie his hair up. What about you Archie's Slave? Any thoughts on the huge waggy hairy tail too? The hair definitely can do it. I have first hand experience of that! My first OES was the mildest mannered girl you'd ever want to meet. We were at the vet's one day, in the waiting room when a lady came in with a Rottie puppy. Now remember....my vet breeds Rotties. Next thing I knew, My poor girl who is sitting quietly beside me is being attacked, bitten 3 times in the ear flap & once in the area along side her face! The vet explained to me that lots of times a full coated OES looks like an alien to the "wash 'n' wear dogs. They react first & most likely never think about it. It took me a long time to feel comfortable around Rotties after that. But I really do place most of the blame with the owner (my vet placed ALL the blame on the owner). First & foremost, when you have any dog (let alone a big or powerful dog) you ALWAYS need to be prepared for what may be on the other side of the door! That means looking thru the glass & opening the door & looking around first before you let your dog into a building, giving your dog 100% of your attention as you move into a room & (in my mid the most important thing) when taking your dog from point A to point B use a leather or webbed lead! I only use the extenda leads when I am taking my dogs to do their business at a motel. There's just not enough control with that lead in a tense situation. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Hint of Mischief wrote: The long hair is a good point Kristine. One of the Rottie owners says he's only like this with Ru & thinks it's because he is too fluffy We always tie his hair up. What about you Archie's Slave? Any thoughts on the huge waggy hairy tail too? The hair definitely can do it. I have first hand experience of that! My first OES was the mildest mannered girl you'd ever want to meet. We were at the vet's one day, in the waiting room when a lady came in with a Rottie puppy. Now remember....my vet breeds Rotties. Next thing I knew, My poor girl who is sitting quietly beside me is being attacked, bitten 3 times in the ear flap & once in the area along side her face! The vet explained to me that lots of times a full coated OES looks like an alien to the "wash 'n' wear dogs. They react first & most likely never think about it. It took me a long time to feel comfortable around Rotties after that. But I really do place most of the blame with the owner (my vet placed ALL the blame on the owner). First & foremost, when you have any dog (let alone a big or powerful dog) you ALWAYS need to be prepared for what may be on the other side of the door! That means looking thru the glass & opening the door & looking around first before you let your dog into a building, giving your dog 100% of your attention as you move into a room & (in my mid the most important thing) when taking your dog from point A to point B use a leather or webbed lead! I only use the extenda leads when I am taking my dogs to do their business at a motel. There's just not enough control with that lead in a tense situation. Could be maybe why so far we have'nt had any problems with Oliver, We have always kept him in short coat..(who knows)
But i do believe alot of the problems are down to a small amount of owners just think it's the size of him, makes them worry.
We dont let Oliver off the lead until we feel everyone is happy he's there |
| All very valuable info - thank you
I am tempted to put off doing it until/if he gets aggressive, I would like to give him the chance to grow naturally. Archie has no aggression that I can perceive he is the most friendly bouncy hound you could wish for. Okay this may annoy other dogs but once I get to know which dogs and owners are happy with him etc I control him on the lead if he has had any history with other dogs. Indeed tonight out in his field he had a terrier and a golden retriever (the snappy collie mix just kept her distance )tell him off and chase him but he just comes bouncing back for more, he even cannon balled the owner of the three dogs over - she thought it was funny!
Archie is full fluff mode ie the total mop head look, I don't tie back when he is upto speed his fluff is blown back, he seems to be able to see most of the time (apart from the once when he snapped a tree stake in two!) I am not totally convinced about the eyes arguement, some dogs are fine and have no issues whatsoever with his appearance, indeed they seem to greet him almost look forward to seeing him - a quick sniff or two then off at full pelt around the fields - yet other dogs of the same breeds of ones he gets on with, can have a different nature - I get to recognise the owners off these dogs and control him accordingly. I think a lot of these contentions with other dogs maybe due to his perceived size. I welcome all input on this, I may talk to the breeders and see what they say, but with eight Adults out on a walk I think any other dogs may well high tail it out of their path! |
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