Good-bye folks!
Many of you know my email adress, so can contact me offlist if you'd like. I will not be accepting PM's. Oh, and Ron...I cannot refer OES people to this site any longer. Sorry. Regards. |
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| Nicole, I really hate to see you do this. I think you offer a very important and knowledgeable voice to the forum. Know that MANY of us agree with your position.
I have seen this same issue create quite a ruckus on other forums as well. Unfortunately people are sometimes difficult to educate, and some have their mind made up in advance so that no amount of education will change their mind. There will always be people who support aversion training methods but there are some who will listen which is why it is important not to silence your voice. For every person who doesn't want to understand there is someone out there open and willing to learn a "better" way to train their dog. It's a bit like child rearing and spanking, some will always remain convinced that it is acceptable. |
 that is really sad. I am on fish forums, refuge forums and a HLTA (higher level teaching assistant forum) the last one was my baby my favourite, my shoulder to cry on and my rock, but the oes forum has now taken over. It is now my first visit in the morning, and the last one at night. My husband asked me last night if it was an addiction and was I having cyber sex...ROFLMAO.
I am sorry you feel like this, I dont like ill feeling and dont understand the problem, my head is very woolly today, so that is no reflection on any ones posting. hugs to you and your family, and your furries. xx |
| I am completely in the dark about what's going on, but I've never seen "the site" support any specific training method. There may be some people who choose aversive training, but why wouldn't you care enough to stay and make sure that the alternative is heard? Education is the only way something changes. That's really a shame. |
| I never even read the thread regarding the aggression issues Darth Snuggle was having with Luna until today... it was a lot to read through.
I don't see anywhere that anyone is specifically supporting any particular training method, only the poster. There will always be people, ideas, theories, methods, etc that not everyone will agree on... this community has flourished in part because of that. We discuss things, we learn from each other, the forum grows as does the base of knowledge that has accumulated here and will hopefully be available for years to come. |
| don't go Nicole! I have always appreciated your advice, and when things were really bad with Walter you were one of people that pushed me into positive reinforcement which helped me tremendously. So please know that although you haven't reached everyone you have helped at least one person.
Some people may disagree with you, but really that is no reason to abandon the discourse or the community. If I left every forum that disagreed with me on some core fundamentals in my life (ie animal rights and eating meat) i would be on zero forums! |
| Since (as I mentioned) I had no idea where this was coming from, I went back and read the post as well.
I'm am really confused how you can say "this forum" supports aversive training methods when this is an individual choice. Moreover that you wouldn't refer anybody to this site which is overflowing with knowledge and support for OES families around the globe is absurd. You could do your part to educate and offer alternatives but instead you're going to take your ball and storm off? How is THAT supporting positive and humane training methods? I see that as you turning your back on them. |
| sorry to see you go. i have left other lists - but usually because of bad manners and boring arguments. one of the things I like about this list is the flow of ideas - ask yourself though, if only the pro-averssives stay what kind of a message does that send when people are searching for information? from all of your recent posts though I assume something else is going on. best wishes. |
| I wish you would rethink your stants. I have no idea what is going on, but I know I will miss all of your postings and opinions. You add alot to this Forum and I feel we still need you.
Crossing my fingers that you change your mind. |
| I think that there are several topics here are the forum that can drive us crazy. There are many times when I have thought, "If one more chucklehead wants to breed their unhealthy, poorly constructed dog and we have to have this conversation again, I am out of here!" We just have to remember that we are not going to convince everyone of what is proper and to do it with our best intentions and a little bit of a smile in our voice. I am by no means Pollyanna but I know that a little bit of kindness may be what sways people. After all that, I scream obsenities at the computer and hope no one thinks I'm crazy! |
Maxmm wrote: I think that there are several topics here are the forum that can drive us crazy. There are many times when I have thought, "If one more chucklehead wants to breed their unhealthy, poorly constructed dog and we have to have this conversation again, I am out of here!" We just have to remember that we are not going to convince everyone of what is proper and to do it with our best intentions and a little bit of a smile in our voice. I am by no means Pollyanna but I know that a little bit of kindness may be what sways people. After all that, I scream obsenities at the computer and hope no one thinks I'm crazy!
I think most "chuckleheads" (no one get defensive I'm using the term globally not specifically) really don't want our "opinion" unless of course it reinfoces their own beliefs. Which is why forums can be so frustrating. Sometimes you just have to "let it go". People, after all, have the right to be as wrong as they chose to be. |
| I remember several years ago I abruptly left and people thought my absence was due to my being upset at something that had happened. It wasn't, as one of my children had a life threatening illness which was my priority at the time.
Ironically, this forum was the lifeline I needed, and yet was away from it for a while. However, I do see the net as always problematic in which misunderstandings can occur - the lack of intonation regarding which "tone" advice is given. This forum is filled with people from all over the world, different backgrounds and viewpoints. While I don't always agree with everyone I always remember what Ron said, "speak to them as you would respond to a neighbor sitting across from you having a cup of coffee". This forum is responsible for making people knowlegable about puppy mills, good breeding, helping those that aren't familiar with the behavioral or medical issues of sheepies and all dogs in general. The list is endless - we as a group are changing peoples views for the better and while we don't always agree on issues - I still stand by this forum is one of the best I've seen. Ron and Joan have worked tirelessly on this forum and purposely never regulated what was said which gave us "free speech". I wish you wouldn't go Nicole as we need voices that have opinions to further educate the public. Sometimes taking a break and returning to once again face the challenges is the best way. I hope you return Nicole. Marianne |
| Nicole, please don't leave. There will be one less person to express your point of view... one less person to try to encourage the use of positive training methods for the benefit of all dogs.
As Mandy has said, there are times many of us are extremely frustrated by the things shared here. If we all leave, there will be no one to teach people that that they have other alternatives or to warn them about possible problems down the road. Please don't go... you have so much to share.  |
| Don't go Nicole! People all have their own idea's of what is right.
All you can do if hope they take the advice. You give GREAT advice and I do hope you reconsider. |
| Nicole, I do hope you will reconsider and stay. Your posts have many times made me stop and think |
| Please reconsider. You've offered wonderful advice in the past (I know this from personal experience) and are a valued member here. This is a very diverse group and we will never all agree on everything. After rereading the entire topic I think many , if not most, agree with you. I may not always agree with you but always admire your passion and commitment. At some point in the future someone will need your advice and you won't be here to give it |
| I hope you decide that a brief respite is what is called for more than out and out quitting. Take a break if you need to, but please come back. Your viewpoints and experience are very much needed and appreciated. |
Does this mean you won't come to the Michigan picnic? I thought you loved us.  |
bestdogs wrote: Please reconsider. You've offered wonderful advice in the past (I know this from personal experience) and are a valued member here. This is a very diverse group and we will never all agree on everything. After rereading the entire topic I think many , if not most, agree with you. I may not always agree with you but always admire your passion and commitment. At some point in the future someone will need your advice and you won't be here to give it
I also have had alot of sound advice from you as well as support. As many have said so far please reconsider. |
| boy am i brave to add anything on such a touchy subject! somebody stop me! too late.
this got me thinking (never a good thing!) on this idea of discipline. it is very interesting that the thought of using some type of physical method for correction is wrong. every animal in this creation utilizes disciplinary "spankings". horses kick and bite offending foals (with great care) to teach the youngins to behave. dogs growl and bite (with great care) to teach manners as well. cats hiss and swat (with great care) to, i think, merely stop the kittens from getting on her nerves! lol. goats, pigs, lions, birds, and turtle doves, all have standards that they impose on their children and other young ones in their group. they warn them, count to three, and if the youngin doesn't shape up they get a "spanking". it's amazing that some of these creatures mentioned could kill a man with one blow, and yet can use that same method to discipline without harming their young even though they may have a nick or scrape to show for it. the end result is an animal that knows what's acceptable and what is not! those of you that think animals are smarter than people may ponder this. those of you that think God has created all things well may ponder this. |
peeps wrote: those of you that think animals are smarter than people may ponder this.
those of you that think God has created all things well may ponder this. What??? Sorry, I don't follow where you are going with those statements. Nicole, I am sorry to see you go. Please know that your views are respected and shared by many on this board, including myself. If you do choose to leave this forum, you and your experience will be deeply missed. |
jcc9797 wrote: peeps wrote: those of you that think animals are smarter than people may ponder this. those of you that think God has created all things well may ponder this. What??? Sorry, I don't follow where you are going with those statements. if you think animals are smart - then think about this fact. if you think God is smart --then think about this fact. my statement is going....to those who care to think about it, whether they believe animals have their own intelligence or it was a gift from God, they can think about it (disciplining through spankings) in terms of these interesting facts. maybe i am being too philosophical for a "friendly forum". no sarcasm intended!!! |
peeps wrote: jcc9797 wrote: peeps wrote: those of you that think animals are smarter than people may ponder this. those of you that think God has created all things well may ponder this. What??? Sorry, I don't follow where you are going with those statements. if you think animals are smart - then think about this fact. if you think God is smart --then think about this fact. my statement is going....to those who care to think about it, whether they believe animals have their own intelligence or it was a gift from God, they can think about it (disciplining through spankings) in terms of these interesting facts. maybe i am being too philosophical for a "friendly forum". no sarcasm intended!!! My thought is that as humans we are a higher order than animals and capable of coming up with solutions that don't necessarily require physical punishment. There are people who believe in using corporal punishment on their children. Just because it's done doesn't mean it's right. God has nothing to do with it. |
Quote: God has nothing to do with it.
God has everything to do everything!!!!!! Ask Him! |
peeps wrote: God has everything to do everything!!!!!!
Ask Him! Of course, now you're talking about an individual religious belief, not factual evidence of anything. Many people across the world share in differing opinions based on their religious beliefs. But since this is not the time or place to be debating them, maybe you'd like to start a post in the "Food for Thought" forum about it? |
| my initial posted reply covered that. Differing beliefs, that is. |
| I have no desire to get into a religious dicussion, my point is that it is rather convoluted thinking to bring God into a shock collar debate. |
| fact is, i brought God and nature. |
| I was working in a school and the kids who were disciplined by their parents, invariably used to hit other children first and ask questions after. They learn by example, so surely if a dog is smacked it will think that a hand is not to comfort him but to smack him, just a thought? |
I believe in one thing and you believe in another. Who's right and who's wrong. Neither! Everyone has a right to their own opinion and if you disagree thats your right, but to leave because not everyone agrees with you 
I got BLASTED from a training method I used month's ago and was called cruel and though I felt hurt, I understand that everyone has there own beliefs...... and I'm still here. |
Bosley's mom wrote: .......I support only postive and humane traing methods and cannot morrally particiapte on a forum that supports and fosters the training with aversives........
Whether you support the issue or not doesn't really matter....... What does matter is that there are people on a forum that believe what they say is important and they try to make a difference. If you leave, how can you help make a difference - one way or the other on an issue. What YOU say may be what someone else needs to hear, but no one else explained it the way it takes to get through to someone. I've pretty much been shunned by a few people on here in the past few months for my opinions, but I feel my voice counts whether anyone believes the same way I do or not. Yes, it bothers me that they feel that way, but ........ I hope if, and when I do leave they will think differently. Hang around!!! You offer much to the forum and to leave over this . |
peeps wrote: God has everything to do everything!!!!!!
Ask Him! Well, I asked Him and so far no reply  . For the ignorant like me what are you talking about and why are you being so cryptic? |
| Nicole;
it would be a shame to rob this board and its members of your knowledge and passion for what you think is right simple because you do not agee with my training methods. Its people like yourself, who questioned my decisions, that really made me do the research on what I was contemplating. And that extensive research helped me to find the right training for my situation. Had I not been questioned, I might have accidentally done the wrong thing, or gone with a decision I would have regretted later. Only you can decide if going or staying is the right thing for you to do. But it sounds like alot of people will miss you if you go. ~Allison |
bestdogs wrote: peeps wrote: God has everything to do everything!!!!!! Ask Him! Well, I asked Him and so far no reply . For the ignorant like me what are you talking about and why are you being so cryptic?ya know, Goliath thought he was a funny guy too! any way, i suspected i was being philosophical, but not cryptic!!! it's was set forth for those who wish to ponder it. don't feel obligated to do so. it was just to show that nature spanks her children. there we go again...cryptic? |
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Simon's Mom wrote: I believe in one thing and you believe in another. Who's right and who's wrong. Neither! Everyone has a right to their own opinion....
well actually I think one of you has to be right because you are on two opposite sides of a yes/no question. It just isn't clear to us who is right at this time. therefore you are welcome to your opinions in a polite society. unless of course you are a student of the relativistic school of philosophy and then it gets complicated. and yes I am being philosophical. since I have a degree in it I thought I should use it! (and my parents always said I never would  )
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| Nicole,
Please reconsider, I would miss you! I would also miss not hearing about Dixie and Bosley. I would feel like I'm losing a friend. OK, call me crazy. I think one of the things that is so wonderful about this forum is we all are likeminded in our love for our sheepie's and animals in general! And that we are usually able to accept each other for who we are although we each tend to differ in our opinions. Hopefully you will reconsider. 
I light up when I see pictures of Dixie especially, I really hope you don't take that away. |
kerry wrote: Simon's Mom wrote: I believe in one thing and you believe in another. Who's right and who's wrong. Neither! Everyone has a right to their own opinion.... well actually I think one of you has to be right because you are on two opposite sides of a yes/no question. It just isn't clear to us who is right at this time. therefore you are welcome to your opinions in a polite society. unless of course you are a student of the relativistic school of philosophy and then it gets complicated. and yes I am being philosophical. since I have a degree in it I thought I should use it! (and my parents always said I never would ) Is it a yes/no question, or is it an opinion with multiple options that are acceptable solutions? Is it only a yes/no question to some? Maybe...yes? No?  |
rdf wrote: kerry wrote: Simon's Mom wrote: I believe in one thing and you believe in another. Who's right and who's wrong. Neither! Everyone has a right to their own opinion.... well actually I think one of you has to be right because you are on two opposite sides of a yes/no question. It just isn't clear to us who is right at this time. therefore you are welcome to your opinions in a polite society. unless of course you are a student of the relativistic school of philosophy and then it gets complicated. and yes I am being philosophical. since I have a degree in it I thought I should use it! (and my parents always said I never would ) Is it a yes/no question, or is it an opinion with multiple options that are acceptable solutions? Is it only a yes/no question to some? Maybe...yes? No? I think the question is "is the use of aversives acceptableas a training aid?" not many options there. unless you believe its all relative. (hey isn't that what started this all?) |
| I am deeply sorry you have made this decision, I agree with your point of view and think you should sleep things over and reconsider your decision, your opinion is valued by the majority of forum members and you are strong enough to overcome these differences of opinion. |
kerry wrote: and yes I am being philosophical. since I have a degree in it I thought I should use it! (and my parents always said I never would
)that's hilarious! what i think might happen sometimes is that since voice inflections are missing, a post may "read" differently than it was intended. someone may think, hey what exactly do they mean by that? was that a dig? when really it might not have been anything at all. but the fun begins! also sometimes we don't express ourselves clearly enough - and since we can't write like Dickens (limited space and all) we sum up- more fun! it is clear though, that people should be able to say something (non-offensive, of course) or think something without fear of stoning. if we were to have a forum that only allowed people who adhered exactly to our personal beliefs the members would be one - ourselves! if Nicole is even slightly interested in following the thread she started, maybe she'll reconsider, as some folks seem to really want her around. but if she truly can't stomach the thought of someone's method of discipline that includes... i don't know what you call it, corporal? - then she has to do what she has to do. i personally, will not read the rainbow bridge or dogs in danger or anything that makes me too sad. i just get too emotional, so i don't subject myself. but this is Nicole's field, so she may feel it necessary to tackle this issues. it may be too much for her. hopefully, it's not a case of feeling attacked by a misunderstood post. |
| I will miss you, Nicole! You provided me with so much support and helpful tips on raising Fozzie and with Annie issues. Please don't go... |
Vicki & George wrote: bestdogs wrote: Please reconsider. You've offered wonderful advice in the past (I know this from personal experience) and are a valued member here. This is a very diverse group and we will never all agree on everything. After rereading the entire topic I think many , if not most, agree with you. I may not always agree with you but always admire your passion and commitment. At some point in the future someone will need your advice and you won't be here to give it I also have had alot of sound advice from you as well as support. As many have said so far please reconsider. please don't go Nicole!!! |
old english wrote: Vicki & George wrote: bestdogs wrote: Please reconsider. You've offered wonderful advice in the past (I know this from personal experience) and are a valued member here. This is a very diverse group and we will never all agree on everything. After rereading the entire topic I think many , if not most, agree with you. I may not always agree with you but always admire your passion and commitment. At some point in the future someone will need your advice and you won't be here to give it I also have had alot of sound advice from you as well as support. As many have said so far please reconsider. please don't go Nicole!!! |
mouthypf wrote: Bosley's mom wrote: .......I support only postive and humane traing methods and cannot morrally particiapte on a forum that supports and fosters the training with aversives........ Whether you support the issue or not doesn't really matter....... What does matter is that there are people on a forum that believe what they say is important and they try to make a difference. If you leave, how can you help make a difference - one way or the other on an issue. What YOU say may be what someone else needs to hear, but no one else explained it the way it takes to get through to someone. I've pretty much been shunned by a few people on here in the past few months for my opinions, but I feel my voice counts whether anyone believes the same way I do or not. Yes, it bothers me that they feel that way, but ........ I hope if, and when I do leave they will think differently. Hang around!!! You offer much to the forum and to leave over this . I agree, If we all think and believe the same, what a boring world it would be. We all have a right to an opinion,
We all have the right to reply
"You cant please all of the people all of the time" |
| Unfortunately it does not appear that Nicole has logged on since she posted this so this is all "falling on deaf ears" so to speak. |
| I'm not quite sure why people have to announce that they are "leaving" forums. Not just this one, but it happens on other forums I'm on. If you no longer want to participate, fine, but it's not necessary to make a proclamation. It only serves to "stir the pot" and in my humble opinion, is a cry for attention. |
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