I Have A Question...
Bob and I felt like we lost just a HUGE part of the family. In the months following we went to visit a reputable breeder who lives just minutes away who had a littler of pup's. We were considering getting 2 of her pups at one point but we were'nt sure if we wanted to get pup's...or an older sheepie. She told me that she would never sell two littermates to the same family because they would bond to each other...and not us. I didn't know that until she told me.  And let me just say this for all out there who think breeders are in it for the big bucks because they are greedy....she could have easily sold me 2 of her babies without blinking an eye...but she didn't. That doesn't sound like greed to me! Anyway...after some time passed, this same breeder had a 3 year old (Bella) who was having some problems getting along with the other females in her home....so we took her girl in. We had her for about 3 months and even tho we loved her deeply, and without going into detail, it was clear this was not a good fit for our home...so we had to give her back to her breeder. She's in the best home ever now.
Now my question (bet ya didn't think I'd ever get to it huh)?? Would 2 OES...the same age or close to the same age....from two different litters bond to each other (rather than bond to us) the same as 2 from the same litter? The reason I ask is because in the future...we want desperatly to have a couple more OES. We have never had two at once and we want them to have a playmate. The time is not right for us now because of our 14 year old Cocker who will live the rest of his life as an only child. He can't take alot of commotion or stress at this point. We may decide to get a couple that are a few years old rather than getting pup's......but I am just trying to do all of my homework way ahead of time. Sorry for all the blabbing!  |
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| It sounds like you did meet a very responsible breeder.
As she told you it is not a good idea to get two puppies together, whether they are the same litter or not. As the breeder told you there can be problems with the dogs bonding with one another and not you. There have been a couple threads on this over the years, I am not sure how to tell you to search for them. But most agree that you should tackle one puppy (or dog) at a time. There are members here who have done it, for some it has worked for others not so well. It seems that we often hear of behviorial problems from the two pup households. Check out the behavioral section, there is one member now who got two puppies together in the fall and is having serious training issues now. Another issue is that if you aquire two dogs the same age you run the risk of having medical bills and aging issues with two geriatric dogs at once, often they will die within proximity of one another. Caring for a geriatric dog is expensive and heartbreaking, I would not want to go through that twice at the same time. If you are going to get a pup I would get the puppy and in a year or two, when the pup is trained and a well established part of your family consider a rescue. |
| Also, if you get one pup and train it well, it can help to train your next pup.
I have 3 dogs right now who are each about 8 months apart in age. I am terrified that they will all end up old and dying at the same time. That is a very scary prospect for me! |
| I currently have two puppies from the same breeder; Tonks and Luna are 7 months old now. They are half sisters, 5 days apart in age. Our breeder did not warn us of the difficulties, she was all too happy to cash my double sized check.
Its hard. But its also wonderful. Our biggest problem was that despite doing training with them, they did bond to one another over us. Which isn't to say they aren't affectionate with us; they are. But they look to one another for leadership. It ended up causing what seemed like aggression issues, and we have invested in some very expensive training to help. I'm glad to report that its almost entirely solved our problems! I love having the two of them. Just be aware that if you do two, it will be alot of work. But I could not imagine having only one now. |
| the poster "6Girls" also has two from the same litter that she refers to as "twins". She said her trainer from day one instructed her to train her 2 seperately, to avoid the bonding issue. You might want to PM her for her experience. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: Its hard. But its also wonderful. Our biggest problem was that despite doing training with them, they did bond to one another over us. Which isn't to say they aren't affectionate with us; they are. But they look to one another for leadership. It ended up causing what seemed like aggression issues, and we have invested in some very expensive training to help. I'm glad to report that its almost entirely solved our problems!
I love having the two of them. Just be aware that if you do two, it will be alot of work. But I could not imagine having only one now. I think your experience is a classic example of what happens and should be a cautionary tale, not one to encourage another person in going down the same road. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: Darth Snuggle wrote: Its hard. But its also wonderful. Our biggest problem was that despite doing training with them, they did bond to one another over us. Which isn't to say they aren't affectionate with us; they are. But they look to one another for leadership. It ended up causing what seemed like aggression issues, and we have invested in some very expensive training to help. I'm glad to report that its almost entirely solved our problems! I love having the two of them. Just be aware that if you do two, it will be alot of work. But I could not imagine having only one now. I think your experience is a classic example of what happens and should be a cautionary tale, not one to encourage another person in going down the same road. Agreed; I wish I had had a breeder that was more straight forward with me, or a trainer that told me from our first puppy class at 12 weeks old that I needed to seperate my girls and work with them individually, to prevent them from bonding to one another, and encourage them to bond to myself and my boyfriend instead. But my girls are now a joy to be with, and hardly a "cautionary tale". If I'd known from the start what I know now, my troubles could have been entirely avoided with the right kind of approach to training. That being said; there are difficulties in getting dogs of different ages as well. When a young dog is added to a home with a more mature dog, initially it will be a much smoother transition. They pup will respect the established, older dog as Alpha, and things will be harmonious. That is, until your older dog gets into its senior years. Pack behavior is to kill the "weak link" in the chain of command. Young dogs take the Alpha position from old dogs by violence. This happens in the home as often as it happens in the wild. My vet has plenty of stories of young dogs in their prime killing a senior dog that they got along well with for years, once that dog became what the canine world views as "too old". Having multiple dogs of any age can be a challenge. Does it mean you shouldn't do it? Of course not. Just be educated and be ready. And who knows; maybe you won't have to ever worry about any of it! |
| I'm beginning to think we are in the minority. We have two littermates that are now around 4 1/2 years old and they have never had a fight. They do this goofy thing of biting at the air but not biting each other. If one nips a bit too hard, the other will yipe and play stops for a bit. Then they're back to playing. I had mentioned to Allison that I don't know if this is just a fluke that it worked out so well for us and the twins. But I can share a bit about what we did... maybe it had something to do with it.
The first night or two home, I always sleep with a new puppy/dog. OMG the kitchen floor is soooo hard. I had Emma sleeping with her head on my feet and Darby was up against my right side. Both chose to make contact with me. Every night, beginning a few days after arriving, my husband and I would play-groom them. We started with wide tooth combs and cardboard fingernail files. Our vet told us about the files. We each took one pup and would switch pups the next night. We would take a quick look in their ears and mouths... each toenail was got a quick swipe with the fingernail file. Maybe this too was part of the human bonding process. The day after they arrived, I started play-training them with food. I'm not saying that my dogs are the best trained because they surely aren't. I would work with them maybe 3-4 times a day with "sit" but only for about 1-2 minutes or until their attention started to wander. This is where they quickly learn to sit for a treat. We also crated them individually. Each pup had a huge crate... we didn't have too much trouble with potty-in-the-crates because as soon as they awoke, they were rushed outdoors (in the middle of winter too). We kept a sheet between the two crates so the stinkers would go to sleep rather than playing between the bars.
We met with a professional trainer when Emma and Darby were about 14 weeks old. There were only two other pups in the class and they were pitbull-mix littermates. The twins already knew sit, down, around-place from play at home... it was more for socialization than anything else. The trainer had told us that they needed to be separated often in order for them to grow up to be stable INDIVIDUALS that can function independently. She said that if one should die, the remaining dog would be lost and would have a difficult time adjusting. Before leaving the first class she told us we had chosen these pups well. Gads... I of course did NOT mention we selected them from pictures only  We were so ignorant!!
So, my husband and I would also take them out individually for rides in the car or walks once they finished all puppy shots. We almost always separated them at home for training or the stinkers would often misbehave because of the monkey-see-monkey-do phenomenon I might recommend that they attend training individually though we took the twins together.
Another thing that might have helped this to work was they were part of a pack from day one. The other two dogs were older... around 5 and 6 at the time. Only one of the elders would play with them and she helped them to learn limits with her restrained manner. The other older dog has always been more crotchety If the good elder  didn't want to play, the twins had to play with each other. And they have a special way of playing that is unique to these two. But... they will play with other members of the pack EXCEPT for Kaytee to who was a brat for about a year. They will not play with her (Panda and Meesha do though).
Another part of this probably has to do with the temperaments of these two particular dogs too. Their mother was content to be low in pack rack so maybe this is just one more reason it's worked so far. I can't tell you if it's a good idea for you to get two puppies or not. There are others here that have had challenges when two puppies are brought in... I know this can be very upsetting and frustrating because it happened when we brought 10 1/2 month old Panda into the pack and Meesha couldn't stand this knew-no-limits girl. I'd hate to encourage purchasing twins only to find that you have problems down the road... |
Tasker's Mom wrote: As she told you it is not a good idea to get two puppies together, whether they are the same litter or not.
That was my main curiosity. I wasn't sure if the bonding issue was only related to siblings or not. As many dogs as I've had in my lifetime...I have never had two from the same litter so I wasn't sure....and actually, I've never had two pups at once ever. The most dogs I've ever had at once was three...but they were spread out age wise with at least 5 or more years in between. You all made good points. I understand what you mean about getting pups so close in age...and having seniors at the same time...and possibly losing them so close together. Roxy and my cocker Max were 8 years apart...but died within 10 months of each other. It was a very heartbreaking time. Anyway...the day will come when we are ready to love another OES...or two...but in the meantime, we have plenty of time to plan. 
Thanks! |
| I agree with all of the issues others have had with having 2 puppies from the same litter. I have littermates, and I would not do it again, although I dearly love Sophie and Sherman. I would also add that I was an experienced OES owner before Sophie and Sherman, having had at least one OES for 14 years before they came into our family. Things are much easier now than they were for the first year, but I won't repeat the experience.
I want to add though that not every older, mature dog will react the same with the introduction of new puppies. We added our second OES, Archie, to our family when our first, Merlin (now at the Rainbow Bridge) was 7 years old. A big part of the reason we added Archie was to serve as a companion/re-invigorate Merlin. Merlin was quite healthy but wasn't as bouncy as he had been and we thought a puppy would bring that out in him. Actually, what it did was to tick Merlin off quite seriously for a week or so--after which he accepted Archie (sometimes with reluctance) and truly helped us train Archie. They became very good friends. Merlin's health seriously failed during the last year or so. Archie was always very good to Merlin and seemed to understand that Merlin couldn't play as much as usual. Merlin was a born Alpha. Archie was a born Omega: he never seemed to resent that Merlin's care took up an increasng portion of our time, but remained good natured and goofy. We talked about getting another puppy for Archie to bounce around with, but with Merlin's declining health, it was the wrong time. And I (foolishly, I think, now) thought that it would be double the fun to get two puppies at the same time. After Merlin passed away (it had been a very, very difficult year for more reasons than Merlin's failing health), we started talking more and more about getting a puppy or probably 2 puppies at the same time. And so we did. We did not get Sophie and Sherman from Merlin's breeder who had since left breeding. This was a mistake. Their breeder was only too happy to sell us littermates. I knew Sherman was a great bet immediately. I had thought I'd get a girl or a pair of girls so that Archie could remain top male but Sherman was the best of the puppies who were not already spoken for. Sophie was obviously the smartest--she is a very, very smart girl! and also the smallest of the girls. These were the biggest differences we could tell, and so we got her. Sophie and Sherman were/are very bonded to each other. They are also quite attached to us and to Archie, who is attached to Sherman, but not so much Sophie, although he was absolutely in love with her when we brought her home. Archie was the same age almost exactly when we got Sophie and Sherman as Merlin was when we got him. However, the two older dogs reacted very differently. Archie was delighted to have puppies, unlike Merlin wh sulked until he decided to get over it. Archie was less thrilled with Sherman for a while because he wanted Sophie all to himself. As time went on, Sophie revealed herself to her ambitions to rule the entire universe and Archie was less thrilled. He became much closer to Sherman and he still prefers to play with Sherman over Sophie. Sophie is jealous of any attention Sherman gets or pays to anybody but her. Archie did change after the puppies came: he matured from a huge goofball who had the personality of a Muppet to a pack leader who takes his responsibilities seriously. He does not hesitate to correct either Sophie or Sherman if he feels they are behaving poorly in any way. The two pups are just 2 years old now--still pups and still occasionally over-exhuberant and prone to jumping on people in excitement (improving all the time, but still occasionally an issue). Archie will correct them before we get a chance to--and they absolutely listen to him. He's always been very good to/with them but he won't put up with nonsense, either. Never a bite or a scratch on either puppy. Ever. Archie is slowing down a little: he doesn't pop up as quickly as he did. And now that Sherman is gianormous-Arcjoe avoids one on one body slams with him, and Sherman is beginning to not be quite as rough with Archie. Archie and Sophie share the same love of toys and sometimes this is an issue, but one that they work out themselves --Archie wins. Sherman is larger and stronger than either of the others, but he simply goes to the end of the line for everything: he's taken over Archie's Omega. I don't know how things will change when Archie gets older and less energetic. I predict that Sherman will remain loving and attentive and that any genuine issues will be from Sophie. I like having 2 dogs. I think it's good for the dogs and good for the family. But I would definitely space two puppies out by a year or two. |
6Girls wrote: I'm beginning to think we are in the minority. We have two littermates that are now around 4 1/2 years old and they have never had a fight. They do this goofy thing of biting at the air but not biting each other.
Ohh my two do that. we were just watching a show on polar bears and when they were fighting hubby said - looks just like "your" dogs. that said. we worked (and continue to work) very hard at making sure our "twins" (six weeks apart) are more bonded to me than each other. Honestly I would get one and then when it was trained get a second. I think it is all around the best situation. but if you get two listen to 6dogs. separate crates, separate classes, lots or one on one time and it can work. |
| Hi,
Given the choice I'd have them different ages and different sexes. Saying that however, I broke my own rules when I have my three boys. Circumstances prevailed when I took Panda into my home and thus ended up with three males. I had my name down for a girl sheepie but after waiting months for the litter and only 2 girls were born and already spoken for - it was 9 males left. Anyhow I'm going off track as while mine are all different ages - for me the ideal situation would be different ages and different sexes. Getting one at a time would allow mom to train one really well so that in turn that sheepie sets the rules for the newcomer. I know however life doesn't always work that way but given the choice... Good luck with whatever you do! Marianne |
Marianne wrote: I know however life doesn't always work that way but given the choice... oh thats exactly right!!! I went in for ONE puppy and came home with two. Not my plan, but having done it, we are now turning (with success) to our training to help sort out any rough spots! |
I'd wait at least a year in between. It'll be a heck of a lot easier and allow you to spend more one on one time with each dog since you'll train the first one and then the second separately (and the first won't need the same attention at the same time). Plus, like Maxmm said, one can hep train the other. My boys are a year apart and things worked out really nicely in terms of both of them bonding with us and each other. It kind of let them both grow into themselves as individuals, which is pretty cool to see.  |
Thanks for all of your input guys!! After reading through both of the old posts along with the more recent posts as well.....we have decided when the time is right for us to add another OES to our home....we will not be getting two at once. (I don't know what I was thinking)  We will eventually have two...but with a few years in between.
I love being able to come here and ask questions...(no matter how silly some may sound)...and lords knows...those of you that know me...know I'm not afraid to ask questions.... |
Darth Snuggle wrote: They pup will respect the established, older dog as Alpha, and things will be harmonious.
That is, until your older dog gets into its senior years. Pack behavior is to kill the "weak link" in the chain of command. Young dogs take the Alpha position from old dogs by violence. This happens in the home as often as it happens in the wild. My vet has plenty of stories of young dogs in their prime killing a senior dog that they got along well with for years, once that dog became what the canine world views as "too old". Please don't assume this is normal domestic dog behavior. And certainly not for an OES!!! I have six OES of various ages, mostly bitches, including a senior and my FCE girl who has residual proprioceptive deficiencies in one rear leg which would presumably make her a target according to the above explanation, and I have no issues among them or bringing fosters in on a regular basis either for that matter. None of my dogs are running around plotting anybody's demise to seize "alpha status". They could care less. My dogs behave, the fosters come into a group of friendly dogs and have no reason to not themselves be friendly. Life is peaceful. In that regard. They're hard on my vacuums and so on, but they're certainly not hard on each other.
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Darth Snuggle wrote: They pup will respect the established, older dog as Alpha, and things will be harmonious. That is, until your older dog gets into its senior years. Pack behavior is to kill the "weak link" in the chain of command. Young dogs take the Alpha position from old dogs by violence. This happens in the home as often as it happens in the wild. My vet has plenty of stories of young dogs in their prime killing a senior dog that they got along well with for years, once that dog became what the canine world views as "too old". Please don't assume this is normal domestic dog behavior. And certainly not for an OES!!! Kristine I know. Even though I have never heard of younger domestic dogs killing the old one's....the reason that we won't add another OES as of yet is because not only is Andy 14....he also suffers from seizures as well...and stress sometimes triggers them. He enjoys his daily walks (unless he's too tired) but mostly he likes to sleep and not be bothered. He's never been one to play...even when he was alot younger. Both of our previous sheepies would try and get him to play...but he would get too stressed out and grumpy. So...after our Roxy passed and Bella went to her forever home....we decided it would be best if he were an only child. |
tdelanoit wrote: So...after our Roxy passed and Bella went to her forever home....we decided it would be best if he were an only child.
I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. He's earned his peace and quiet. I just don't want people who have never had multiple dogs before looking at their dogs wondering what the magic age is before one starts tearing the other apart
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: I just don't want people who have never had multiple dogs before looking at their dogs wondering what the magic age is before one starts tearing the other apart Kristine Good point!! |
| Our young guys were actually much more respectful of Lucy as she got older and more frail-- and she never stopped ruling the roost! Bear would cry if she was in the hallway and he needed to get past her and she didn't want to move. They were careful never to step on her and always watched out for her if we went to the dog park (when she was still able to do things like that). I have heard of dogs attacking another dog in their house that was having a seizure before but I'd never heard anything like based on age and weakness. |
ButtersStotch wrote: I have heard of dogs attacking another dog in their house that was having a seizure before but I'd never heard anything like based on age and weakness.
My vet told me about it, and my trainer backed it up when I asked her. I was surprised too. In fact, I had a friend that when her dog got older, and lost its vision, they brought in a younger dog of the same breed, specifically so it could help the other dog. And it did; its like somehow it knew that it needed to help, and he acted like a seeing eye dog for the blind older dog! I think what we are hearing here is that there are bad case scenarios and good ones, and you cannot know which you will get until you do it. You just need to be aware of what may happen, and be prepared to cope with whatever your situation throws at you. |
| Oops I realized in my morning rush I wasn't clear regarding when waiting for a litter that I was referring to how I ended up with Merlin. I had my heart set on a girl. Then of course circumstances once again prevailed and I ended up with Panda. Just wanted to clarify things.
My previous girl Shaggy, ruled the roost and when she passed Merlin was only four months old as I was sure she would have 'whooped him into shape" as she did Blue, had she lived longer. Blue used to quide aged Shaggy down the stairs, and would lean against her on walks when her eyesight diminished leading her back onto the pathways. He learned from her that all creatures great and small in my household were never chased - she left us that legacy and in turn Blue taught it to Merlin - the only time he stands up to him. Merlin, in turn, taught it to Panda. As a result all the boys accept all small creatures from the bunnies, cats, guinea pigs and even the mice are never harrassed or chased. Having them too close together would have not worked in my household but each household is different and it's an individual choice. I see Merlin now doing the same caring for Blue. Eventually he may he may do it for Panda. My dream sheepie girl(in the future) may someday do it for Merlin. I like the spread in ages regarding cost, training and my own energy. |
| I would space them out a year or two. It has always worked best for me to have a well trained older dog at home when the pup comes in. They can usually show the pup the ropes, and correct them when they misbehave. I thought that would be the case with Nigel, but my Std Poodle female that I had when he got here developed cancer and wasn't here with him very long.
It is good to have a couple of years between them so that you don't end up with two geriatric dogs at once. Take your time with the first one until you are ready to add the second. It's easier to train one at a time. |
| I had one female and decided to breed her. I planned on keeping one female pup. Hubby and I both had a favorite of the litter and neither of us were willing to budge, so I kept them both.
I had no problems with them until they were about a year old with fighting. I don't know what set it off. I was in the shed, I called one of their names and a fight from hell broke out. After that, I eventually had to keep the sisters seperated. It wasn't worth taking a chance on one getting hurt, and I didn't have access to trainers where I live. Their mom would get into the fight and always backed up the same one, but she got along with both on an individual basis. I think with me yelling out their names to stop it, she thought she was helping me break it up?? Training went fantastic, except teaching them to speak! Their mom would always speak so they eventually just looked at her when I said speak! Even when she was out of sight she'd hear me so they just sat there. Finally, around maybe 8 months they spoke on command.
It was a lot of fun having them all in the house together until the fighting started. If you can prevent that you'll love it. As for them bonding with one another instead of you. I think that depends on how much time you spend with them. If you work, they're going to be together more and of course they're going to be more bonded with one another. No different than when you leave a child with a baby sitter, and they start calling her mom. 
I was lucky. Momma died young, about 8. One of my girls died at 12 and the other one was 1 month shy of being 15 when I lost her. There's pros and cons to having more than one, but if you're home and willing to devote the time with them, there's nothing better than having multiple sheepies in the house! I ended up with 8 at one time. All lived to be at least 8 years old, most were at least 12. It's a lot of work, fun and love. Yes, there's pain, but I'd do it over again in a heartbeat! |
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