My mom wants to give Walter away
I am so sad at the thought that they might actually make me give him away. No one would take him anyway! Who would take a people and animal aggressive dog that is destructive and naughty? I am also scared that when I move out (im 22 and graduating college this spring, so i will be moving out in the somewhat near future) walter will start attacking me again. Sometimes the only reason he backs down is because one of my parents is there and he knows that they are above him. He listens to me most of the time, but when food or the garage door are involved he will challenge me. I will NOT give up my dog, if it means trying ten thousand more medications or going to a more behaviorists/trainers then i will do it. If it means moving out and making him wear a muzzle I will do it. I dont know if thats selfish or not, but he means the world to me and I cant risk him not being loved somewhere else. What if we gave him to someone who hit him? what if they didnt want to deal with getting bit and gave him to a shelter?? Im sorry to vent, i am just so sad at the thought of giving Walter up. I dont know what to do anymore! |
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| Ohhhh how awful for you! I know how much you love Lil Walty as it's so apparent in all your post. Through you, the members here feel affection for him as well. I love that boy!!
Still it must be difficult being in this situation and I'm not sure what to recommend as I know you've had trainers in the past. Have you contacted Grannie Annie she seems to be the geru of OES's with lots of problems. If you need her email just let me know. I'm crossing my fingers others may have suggestions to offer as well. Marianne (give Walty a hug for me) |
| I feel terrible about this, especially after having met Walter on, apparently, one of his "good" days. Have you met with a behaviorist on a one on one? My vet in Lindenhurst has the name of an excellent one. She gave it to me for mean ol' Molly, before Molly got so sick. I'd be glad to pass it to you. Heather, please let me know what I can do, if anything to help. I think its a great idea to talk to Grannie Annie..she's wealth of knowledge! Deborah |
| I agree... getting in touch with G/A is your best bet. I'm so sorry.... you must feel awful... I wish I could do something to help...but we are all keeping our fingers crossed for you and Walter. |
| Heather,
This is a very difficult situation and I'm so sorry you are going through this. I hope you can work things out. Please call Grannie Annie - she's been through this with alot of dogs. There's a problem called "Rage Syndrome" that you should read about. If your behaviorist isn't still working with Walter - I'd get him to see someone and see if his meds need adjusting. Also - have you had his Thyroid tested by Dr. Jean Dodds?? My thoughts are with you! Hang in there! Kristen |
| You can do it! Hang in there. Take Walter to Puppy School. I had similar problems with Dudley last summer, he used to bite anytime you touched his feet or when I tried to put him in his crate. I think we hit rock bottom when he bit my 4 yr old nephew on the face on Christmas Day last year. (Duds was laying on the floor, and my nephew tripped and fell on him - this was an hour or two after the photo of my Avatar was taken) It was real bad for awhile, but now we're in much better shape. It took about 6 months of daily training in 15 minute chunks of time. One thing my trainer had me do that REALLY helped was hand-feeding him. I used to buy the rolled dog food - I call it the "Doggy Polenta" - and I'd cut it up and feed him, piece by piece. Same with the kibble - one piece at a time. AND - he had to sit quietly before he gets the food. Our trainer reccomended the "Nothing in life is Free" program. NILF What this means is that in order to do ANYTHING, he has to sit, lay down, or perform some kind of command. The reward is doing what it is that he wants to do. For example, Dudley LOVES to go car-car. Just the words 'car-car' cause him to jump around and do his happy dance. Before we exit the house, he must sit quietly while I put his collar and leash on. He must sit quietly in front of the door before I will open it, AND he has to wait for me to go through FIRST. (this part is real important, as it re-enforces your role as Alpha) He has to sit before I let him in the car, and he has to sit before I let him out of the car. Dudley now knows that when he sits, I will open the door and let him out of the crate, or in the car, or give him food, etc. It's sort of automatic now. Moreover, he knows that I'm the Momma! You need to be the Momma, too! I've learned that it's really important to take them to obedience training, even if it's only the basic class. We've since moved on to dog drafting, and maybe one day we'll try agility. Email Grannie Annie and see what she suggests. Please keep us posted, as we're all interested in you and Walter. Good luck! ~Katie, Dudley's mommy. |
| thank you all for the responses/support
i talked to my mom and she told me she wont make me give walter away. but everyone is definitely at their breaking point with him. we just refilled his clomipramine (the medication he takes for anxiety) but i think it might be time to try something new. i am going ot call the behaviorist monday and make an appointment asap. i suggested thyroid testing to her last time and she told me she didnt think it was necessary, but i will bring it up again. i have talked to grannie annie in the past, she recommended hand feeding and positive reinforcement training which we have been doing for months now. the hardest part though is that i really dont know why walter attacks sometimes so its hard to avoid it. hes just such a weird dog... his new thing is to come and lay with me in bed before i go to sleep. he plops down pratically on top of me but i if i pet him he shows his teeth at me and will sometimes give me a little snap. so i usually have to kick him out. the other night he was showing his teeth so i just rolled over the other way and the little brat came and put his paws and head on my side as if he was saying sorry. but when i rolled over he just kept showin his teeth. i just dont understand him. sigh... at least he keeps life interesting |
| sorry to hear about Walter,
Start by making him work for everything food, treats, anything do not allow him in bedrooms on chairs or sofas .If he attempts to bite shout ouch loudly seperate him from everyone put him outside. Oes are very sociable creatures so he will not like being removed from family. When dougal was smaller when playing he would catch you with his teeth. If when he catches us now when playing we dont even have to shout ouch anymore he puts his head down looks sorry for himself goes and sits down outside till he feels he has admonished himself enough. He really is a gentle giant. good luck with Walter. If you work with him he will behave. It can be easy to give into the little devils. Be firm but consistant they grow to be large dogs and its so rewarding when other people say what a terrific dog he his. love Pepe |
| Heather, the bed thing sounds like he's trying to prove his "alpha-ness". I'd stop letting him get in bed until things are better under control. |
| Heather, I had a dog with Rage Syndrome and it is scary. I had a Samoyed and a newborn son and a 3 year old toddler. I was vacuuming with Frosty stood on his hind legs and came at me growling snarling and walking nothing stopped him till he came out of this state of mind and knew nothing, I got him into the bathroom and after hours of talking with our vet and others they all said put him down. What choice did I have, could we control his behavior no, was my family at risk yes. I suggest you contact a new behaviorist and perhaps another one give them the dogs history and ask many questions. There is a lot of information on line about this, dogs showing their teeth is not normal behavior, please help yourself and family. I am old enough to be your mother and spoke as if you were my child I am around if you wish to chat but do something to help this situation. I wish you peace. Dolores |
| DON'T LET HIM ON THAT BED!
I know this is a hard one, both of my dogs earned the right to be in bed, but Walter seems to be taking a bit of a back-step, and that could be from the permissiveness of being on the bed. Jake was a big, dominant dog who occasionally (monthly, bi monthly, every 6 months ) ate ham off of my arm. Fortunately, Jake wanted to be in bed for a couple of minutes, then he'd jump down and find the cool tile. Mulligan wants to be in bed all night long. We have had to kick them both out for a while at times, and they both seemed to really understand that if they weren't on the bed they weren't pleasing us. (Of course, what was REALLY going on was probably they felt a bit more submissive, which we decided to accept as "sorryness"). The growl thing sounds to my uneducated ear like he is feeling that he is top dog in that bed, and if that's the case, it could be undoing all of the hand feeding and other nothing-in-life-is-free training. |
| E-mail me, I have a program you can put him on and I bet you anything it will work with him. It will be hard to be on but will work.
hdk9s@yahoo.com That way I can e-mail you the program. It has worked for many dogs but you have to stick to it. Samantha High Desert Rescue |
| Heather,
Forget about the behaviorist telling you that she didn't think thyroid testing was necessary - it's imperative that you have his thyroid tested (contact Jean Dodds) - thyroid and this type of unprovoked aggression goes hand in hand! If Walter bites someone - you could be in trouble and he may end up being deemed viscious. If it was being caused by something medical and you didn't look into it - you would never forgive yourself. Kristen |
| Hi Heather.
Sorry to hear Walter causes you trouble, but it's good to hear that you want to work with him to correct his ways. Lennon has set backs on his training from time to time too. Last one was last night when I was working with his food possesivness issues and I ended up with a bleeding bitten finger... ouch. What I've learned from dogs is that is very rare they bite or attack without a reason (In last night's case, the treat was so yummy, he got upset because I did not let him have it all the time) and the reason sometimes is not human understandable. Have a behaviorist work with him to find out the cause of his aggression, and rule out any medical issues that may be bugging him. Get him off the bed and start reassuring your alpha role in his life. Hand feeding stopped Lennon from being aggressive to Sofa when she came home, and when we applied the "Nothing Is Free" program for both we calmed them down a bit when they were beginning to regress in their training. Don't get dissapointed about Walter, He may need work, but if you have an undrestanding family that is willing to support you, he will be a very adjusted doggie. I can see from your post that he means a lot to you, and that's the most important ingredient, because it shows you are commited to make him a good doggie citizen. |
| Heather,
First I want you to know how much I admire your determination to work through the problems with Walter. I have read your posts for many months now and know how much you have been through with his erratic and aggressive behavior. I also know how much you love Walter. Sheepies can be a handful and when a big dog behaves badly it can be terrifying for everyone. You have probably read the posts about multiple dogs and how everything can be fine for a couple of days, weeks, or months and then all of a sudden there is a big blow up over the alpha position. Your situtation reminds me of those posts. Don't you think Walter isn't sure that you are always alpha and he is challenging you for that role? The advice already posted seems exactly on point so I won't add much just one suggestion: consistency. Your behavior must be extremely consistent--never ever let Walter get away with the slightest infraction, even when you are tired, frustrated and in a hurry. The training should be NILIEF--nothing in life is EVER free. Consistency should reinforce your position and let him know he shouldn't bother to challenge you. Henry and I send all our best wishes and support. Henry was (decreasingly) awfully behaved until about 6 months ago, they do grow out of adolescence eventually and it can be hell until they do. Keep talking here, we want to help! |
| Heather,
My heart goes out to you, because I know EXACTLY what you're going through. This will be a long post and I apologize for that in advance, but here is my story. After our first sheepie died in 1994, we were devastated beyond belief. The internet was in its infancy then, so my husband just started calling people he found in the phone book, in the classifieds, etc., to try to find us another dog. We found a rescue in Maryland who had a male, 18 mos old. Great! We went down to see him. The rescue lady didn't have any background on him. She rescued him from a Wash DC shelter, and they had no background on him. All they knew was that he was being turned in from his 3rd home - and he was only 18 mos old!! The rescue lady said he played well with her other dogs, although a bit roughly. She thought he had a good personality, in the short time (a few months) she had him. He was beautiful, and the visit seemed to go well, so we decided to adopt him. While we were in the kitchen, my son (who was 12 at the time) was playing with him in the living room. He picked up a toy near Farley, and was promptly snapped at. We were shocked but thought it was just because we were new to Farley and this was his house. The car ride home was pretty bad. We had a minivan and took the middle 2 seats out. Farley came up and kept staring at my hand. He snapped at me once, and I promptly smacked him on the nose and yelled NO. He understood, but then turned his attention to my kids. My daughter was only 8, and she's always been a very petite, little thing. Farley started staring at her, to the point where she was really getting scared and started crying. He then lunged at her and bit her on the upper thigh. Luckily she had heavy jeans on so he didn't actually break the skin, but she had 4 huge marks on her legs for quite awhile afterwards. But boy! Did she scream!! And this was just was Farley was counting on -he was now ahead of her in the pack. My husband and I were dumbstruck - NOW what do we do? We were almost home. Do we turn around and take him back to the rescue lady (about a 3 hour drive)? We got home and called her. She suggested we bring him back, or that she would pay for a behavorist to see him. Since it was a long trip, we opted for the behavorist. The behavorist evaluated Farley and gave us exercises to do with him. We did everything she told us, but he didn't improve much. We didn't know about having his thyroid tested. Even the vet didn't suggest it. We didn't know about possible connections between too much protein in his food and aggression. We just knew we had a dog that could go off without warning. He never challenged my husband. He accepted him as the leader of the pack. He challenged me a few times after the ride home, but he always lost. He knew he was above my daughter, so he set his sights on my son. We couldn't have him in the house when company came. He would sit there and stare at their shoes, then attack them (the shoes). Found out that dogs view human hands and feet like their paws, and their reasoning is that if they can get control of our hands/feet, they can overcome us in pack order. He bit one of Spencer's friends who was just petting him. The weird thing was that after he would bite, he would become so submissive, like he knew what he was doing was wrong. But it didn't stop him. One day when we were all outside, we had him on a leash attached to a rope, and the rope was attached to a tree. My daughter and I walked past him, thinking we were outside his reach. We were wrong. He charged up and bit my daughter's hand. Luckily we were just far enough away so that he couldn't get a good bite, but to this day, she has a mark on the inner and outer palm of her hand where his fangs hit. If he had been closer and he could bite harder, he would have gone straight through her hand. Again, he was very remorseful afterward. We tried to keep up with the training, but the kids were becoming increasingly scared of him. And to be truthful, so was I. The final straw came while we were decorating the Christmas tree in 1995. We were all in the living room, and Farley was just lying there watching us. My son took an ornament from the box and reached up with his right hand to place it on the tree. His left hand was down at his side. Without warning, Farley jumped up and bit my son's left hand. Hard. To the tune of 5 stitches between the knuckles of his middle two fingers. When we took him to the doctor's and they found out what happened, they said they had to write a report that this dog was dangerous. By this time we had Farley for about 14 months. We had tried everything we knew of and nothing worked. If this forum had been around then, it would have helped me understand a lot of what was going on in his mind, but I was just so scared for our safety by that point. When I called the vet to tell them, they said he would have to be put down, but by state law, he couldn't be put down for 10 days to see if he had rabies. I knew he didn't because I knew his shots were current, but they couldn't do anything for 10 days any way. During those final 10 days, my son's rage almost matched Farley's. He couldn't even stand to look at him, and I can't say as I blamed him. Every time he turned around for those 14 months, he was getting snarled at, snapped at, or bitten. Enough was enough. My husband had a hard time with this, because as I said, Farley never challenged him as leader, and he WAS a beautiful dog. But I said our safety had to come first and we couldn't go on like this. So sadly, we had him put down. Again, our house was dog empty. We couldn't stand it. Within two weeks, we found Drezzie from a rescue in NJ. She was such a god-send!! On the ride hom with her, all she did was kiss my kids. My son was hooked from the get-go. To this day, at 22 years old, he is so tender and loving with her and looks forward to the day when he can get a sheepie of his own. The first thing my daughter does when she comes home from college is run for Drez. I'm just so glad that our horrible experience with Farley didn't sour the kids on dogs in general. What a tragedy that would have been. I know this is long, but thanks for listening. Like I said, at the time we had Farley, not all of this information was available to us, but I still cringe when I read of Walter biting someone because it brings back such hard memories. I wish you the best and hope you can rehabilitate him. Chris |
| Chris,
I'm sorry your family went through this - but Thank you for sharing with everyone. Great post! Our family's first OES, Henry, had to be euthanized (or as a kid I was told "sent to live on a farm") due to aggression (typically involving one of our other dogs) and it elevated to my sister being in the middle of one of their fights and getting bit badly. Both Henry and our basset hound, Bosley, were put down. It was devastating for all of us - and an experience I will never forget (and one my mother who brought them to be put down will never get over either!). Sometimes there is no other solution but to euthanize a dog that has aggression issues. It's heartbreaking for all those involved. It's also one of the reasons that people should be so careful to get a puppy from a reputable breeder! Aggression is becoming so common among OES - it's scary! Aggression is part of the dog's temperment - you can't change temperment - you can only change behavior! Hopefully, Walter's aggression can be resolved with behavior modification and medication and Heather won't have to go through this same tragedy. Please everyone - learn a lesson from someone else's heartbreak! Kristen |
| I'm so sorry to hear your dilema. I can tell by your posts here that you really care for Walter! I know you have tried so many different solutions too, lets hope something works for him. Please keep us posted on his progress! |
| Hi Heather,
I can't give any advice, but just want you to know that you and Walter are in my thoughts and prayers. I hope that in time he will be better. I have followed his story and all of his antics from the beginning and know how much patience and love you have for him. Hugs to you! 
Stormi and co. |
| please keep us up to date on whats going on....i can only imagine how hard this is for you,and for your mom.with all the love you have given walter already im sure you will make the best decission for all of you.you have alot of good advice here and me and my boys are all hoping nothing but the best for you.....Good luck hun... |
| I'm so sorry to hear about everyone who had to put down or give up a dog due to aggression. its so unfortunately especially when we love them so much. I am very lucky in that I have a lot of support and a lot of hope that I will not have to give up my boy.
I have to admit that I've been slacking on some of the training, he was just doing so well with things like 'drop it' and 'leave it' when we saw other dogs in the park that I thought him being on the bed or getting canned food in his bowl would be ok. I am very impressed with some of his progress and know that its up to me to get tough on some of the preventable aggression (food + garage door aggression) I am also going to insist on getting his thyroid tested and see if there is possibly a better suited medication. Im pleased with our behaviorist, shes made herself very available to us and works at Walters vet, so hopefully she can help me devise a better plan for Operation Keep Walter. Its just been ridiculously stressful especially when combined with other stresses like graduating from college, applying to grad and law schools, and trying to decide where im going to live and how im going to manage to bring walter with me.... but im going to have to start getting tough, because im 100% positive i could never give up walter. |
| Keep the faith Heather! You can do this - with dogs like Walter - you can't give them an inch or they'll take a mile! Stick with training and living the "rules" regardless of his progress! Don't back down - he'll trample over you.
This time of year is difficult - especially when you're trying to decide what to do with your life (grad school. living situation, etc.) - but try and relax - your stress may trigger Walter's moods / tension as well. Best of Luck! We're here for you! Kristen |
| Hi Heather,
I think your attitude is the best! I think if anyone can do this, it is you!
I am glad to hear about the thyroid test. I think either it is going to help, or can be ruled out as a contributing factor. Here is a link through Dr Dodds, on the thyroid panel testing..... http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-ang ... ctions.htm You and Walter will stay in our prayers until he gets better. Stay strong and keep us updated. Big hugs to you both. Stormi and co. |
| Don't give up, Heather! You've put so much time, effort and love into Walter and I'm sure he loves and appreciates you. But like everyone else has said, don't lighten up on the training. Maybe once he gets out of his adolescence stage, he'll calm down better.
Good luck with graduating and grad school! Such an exciting, busy time. My son just graduated last May from Syracuse and is in the process of moving to DC. Good for him, I know, but I will miss him so much!!!  Where are you thinking of applying for law school? Spencer's girlfriend is going to Geo Washington in DC.
If you can handle the pressures of going to grad school PLUS taking care of Walter - more power to you! Just remember - one day, one step at a time! Chris |
| I hope everything works out for you. I know what you're going through. I had to have Neville put down a coulple of weeks ago. It seemed like there was no other option. I found out that some of his litter mates were the same way.
You have come so far with Walter he is lucky to have you. (he just doesn't know it) cher |
Cher wrote: I hope everything works out for you. I know what you're going through. I had to have Neville put down a coulple of weeks ago. It seemed like there was no other option. I found out that some of his litter mates were the same way.
You have come so far with Walter he is lucky to have you. (he just doesn't know it) cher Cher, I'm so sorry about Neville. That's such a heartbreaking situation but you did what was necessary and have my deepest admiration for the strength you have shown. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family! Hugs! Kristen |
| I know in the past with an aggressive dog I had we used a halti.
Sometimes they are called gentle leaders. If you leave it on them (it goes around mouth/nose and head) sometimes it will make the dog more submissive. This will not keep him from eating drinking kissing or biting if he really wants too but will bring him down the ladder. Keep a leash hooked to it in the house. This tool is great for dogs that pull since i dont believe in choker collars. The halti will give you complete control of the dogs head he will HATE it and try to take it off but they do work. |
| Cher,
We're sorry to hear about Neville. It must have been a very difficult choice, and I guess it took a lot of courage to do so. Our toughts are with you and your family! |
| I'm sorry to hear that you guys are dealing with such unexpected aggression. I hope everything will work out and Walter will mellow out soon. |
| have you ever watched "the dog whisperer" on the national geographic channel? it seems exactly like what you need! he basically says the same thing every episode - walk your dog every day and YOU are the pack leader, he's is a dog first, not your child. Anyhoo, maybe if you live close enough you could even call him to come help you. He works miracles!
Cesar's Way : The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding and Correcting Common Dog Problems (Hardcover), by Cesar Millan, Melissa Jo Peltier People Training for Dogs, Cesar Milan's DVD The Dog Whisperer: A Compassionate, Nonviolent Approach to Dog Training, by Paul Owens, Norma Eckroate |
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