We need 6,000,000+ puppies a year
If we guesstimate that the active show dog population to be 200,000 dogs (I'm really guessing here, how off am I?), and if we all got dogs from the show dog breeders of the responsible kind, it would mean that each show bitch would need to produce about 60 puppies a year. A biological impossibility obviously, so I believe that informed, responsible BYBs in business should actually be encouraged, because if they don't, outfits like the Hunte Corporation will only be too happy to pick up the slack and supply those six million puppies for the U.S. market. I'm sure most of us consider dog ownership a good thing: it teaches us responsibility, brings us joy, companionship, protection, lowers our blood pressure, engages us with others, and bonds us with nature. While there is the pet overpopulation problem, animals in pounds and shelters are by and large a) unwanted, b) have problematic behavior c) have health issues, or d) are victims of abuse, neglect or ignorance. Some of these animals can be rescued and adopted, but it is a problem that will never be fully solved. We can only minimize it through education, spay and neuter, consciousness raising, public campaigns, and public and private subsidies. And unless we force pet owners to forego pet ownership altogether, insisting that people only get puppies from boutique show dog breeders will do nothing to address this problem. |
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| That is an interesting way of looking at it. |
| This problem will never be solved anyway. There will always be a demand for $250 to $700 OESs because you won't be able to-
1. Educate everyone. 2. Stop some people from simply being cheap (this is the biggest problem). 3. Make people actually care- if someone gets a cheap dog, it's easier to dump them at a shelter or AC and simply go get another puppy. These dogs put more burden on rescues/shelters. I heard the other day that someone once had gotten rid of their OES because it turned gray... another time that the OES wasn't big enough. Quote: insisting that people only get puppies from boutique show dog breeders
Are you purposely belittling show breeders with the word "boutique"?? I just can't understand doing this to breeders that care more about the dogs they produce, will take a dog back for any reason and take steps to ensure their pups are as healthy as they can be. Now, I do believe there are better show breeders than others out there... I honestly used to be where you now are on this. "Why would I want a dog from a show breeder if I'm not going to show/breed? I'll settle for the $800 and $500 dogs" because I didn't know any better. THEN I learned more when I adopted two difficult to place dogs with hereditary/congenital defects. Have you ever rescued a dog before or worked with a rescue or shelter? How about a dog born "defective"? Most people haven't purposely done this so maybe I'm the fool. Just trying to get a handle on why you purposely used the word "boutique" and what experience you've had with a show breeder in the past... Is your dog from a BYB? I've got 3, probably 4, that came from a BYB. Just because a dog comes from a BYB does NOT mean that it's not a good dog!! In my opinion, a BYB means the breeder is taking risks. What do you think should be required to breed two dogs? Pretesting or no pretesting? Pretesting of what? Should the breeder know how to research a pedigree or isn't a pedigree important? If not, how will a breeder know they aren't using lines that have CA or life threatening autoimmune conditions in them? That deaf OES is still being offered on Puppyfind. The price dropped $50... now she's only $750 if someone wants to BREED her! Such disregard for the breed and future puppies. Anyone can breed any two dogs... it takes ethical and educated people to do it right. |
| Uh, interesting math. We are talking OES, are we not?
In some breeds, your "boutique " (i.e good breeders) include breeders who test their dogs in ways other than the show ring - take labs - a very popular breed - there are actually two types in this country and many excellent breeders whose dogs never see a show ring, but are tested in the field. Ditto for herding breeds like border collies. Point is they are breeding purposefully, evaluating how their dogs measure up, and most, one would hope, health testing. So you need to dig deeper into those numbers before you throw them around like that and presume there is such an overwhelming need for BYBs, i.e. breeders who just throw two dogs of the same breed together with no further thought, knowledge or testing. And then go a level deeper and look into the OES numbers. Seriously. It's an interesting proposition. Just make sure you understand what you're looking at and not just throwing numbers out there to support your personal point of view. There's enough of that going around in this country as it is. You can start with the AKC stats like numbers of OES registered every year, numbers of litters born, numbers of CHs in the breed - dig around the site a bit and it should yield you some good raw data. I don't know if the last health survey ( www.oeshealth.org ) has data on the average litter size. Check and see. That number would predominantly be reflective of the show population since the survey was limited to the OESCA membership. The new one (us boutique breeders are keen on evaluating health trends) is coming out this summer and will go world wide with demographics questions included to better answer some of the questions you'll need - I designed most of them - so stay tuned for those results and you may have more to work with. A bunch of us boutique breeders got together last night for an hour and a half telephonically to discuss the health survey, the open health registry, what research efforts OESCA can support in terms of autoimmune and cancer in this breed and so on. You know, in between snubbing pet people and getting our nails done. Or our dogs' nails done. Or whatever it is boutique breeders do 
How to extrapolate actual demand? Hm, that may take some more digging, but if you're game, go for it! Fundamentally, you have a good point. Good breeders will never be able to supply the entire market for DOGS. That in itself is not an excuse to not do basic research and try to find a decent breeder and doesn't tell us much about OES, but given some time, additional data and effort, you could come up with some interesting trends. Keep us posted. Off to bathe my boutique sheepdogs so we can leave for St louis looking reasonably boutiquish. I.e. clean 
Have fun. Love numbers. Should be a fascinating project!! Kristine |
You must work for the government.  |
6Girls wrote: This problem will never be solved anyway. There will always be a demand for $250 to $700 OESs because you won't be able to-
1. Educate everyone. 2. Stop some people from simply being cheap (this is the biggest problem). I agree we can never educate everyone - and that there are legitimately different ways to look at things. However I object to your assumption that people who don't want to spend this much money for a dog are cheap. some people just can't afford to pay that much money. However, I think you need to adjust your model because many of the dogs that are bred are retired from the show ring, as well as what Kristine said. |
| I've read studies reporting the same conclusions. Whenever the demand outstrips the supply, something will slip in to fill the void either free market or black market. |
Quote: However I object to your assumption that people who don't want to spend this much money for a dog are cheap. some people just can't afford to pay that much money.
Please note that it says "some", not "all". It's those who CAN afford to pay for a quality dog yet despite their knowledge, still CHOOSE to go with a BYB who does no testing. The sad thing is, some don't understand that if they can hardly afford to buy a dog now, they surely won't be able to afford any big medical bills to properly care for the dog later. And we who purchase from a BYB, rather than going through rescue for a $200 to $300 dog, will continue to keep the BYB in business with "business as usual". What is it that's being proposed... to increase the quality of the pups BYBs produce? I'm pretty sure we're all for this! I've heard "mentors" mentioned in another thread... are you expecting show breeders to mentor the BYBs? To ok breeding dogs they themselves would never consider breeding? I just can't see you being able to convince a BYB who sells their dogs for $500 to pretest and OFA certify... or to spay/neuter and start over with new breeding stock if there are problems. They probably have other things they intend to spend that last litter's profits on. |
| I think it's a great point.
There is much more demand for dogs than there is supply, which probably causes an overpopulation of puppy mills. Instead of ripping specifics, what's the solution? Since the best breeders can't meet the demand, can something be done, somehow, to meet the demand with the best possible secondary source? What would that be? How can we help to make that a reality, or should we just continue to hang out and lament about the mills? Maybe we should just give the mills the best breeding stock, the best lines, so that at least the hordes come from healthy lines?  |
| but then what would people complain about?
kidding 
There probably are people who many consider backyard breeders who do all the testing etc and can afford to sell slightly less expensive dogs because they are not paying for the show overhead and advertising etc. I think in an earlier post I suggested there could be an independent evaluation system. no one picked up on it. It is an interesting concept from a purely academic point of view. |
Quote: Note: If a breeder won't allow you to have breeding
rights with your purchase, they may not be of good quality! Honest, this is actually on a breeder's website and the pups are listed for $1,200 each. 
Not champion sired, no championship bloodlines, but yes, they do have show potential according to the ad? I know of two show breeders that were selling pet-quality pups for $1,500. Parents have championships and are extensively pretested and OFA/CERF. What makes the first dogs worth $1,200? If you can get to the buying public before they make their purchase, teach them what questions to ask and why they should ask them, maybe there's hope that some BYBs will eventually be forced by the public to make changes that will improve the quality of pups produced. |
| Well, sure, you could show any AKC-registered, intact dog, technically, right?
Here's what I think: I think that all of the very best reputable breeders are doing a terrific job. I also think that they cannot maintain their high standards and supply the demand for OES puppies. Unfortunately that means that people will acquire their puppies elsewhere. What I'd like to see is a way to increase the odds of OES puppies being born healthy and with a good set of genes to help ensure healthy lives and terrific dispositions. I believe that breeders should be licensed--no matter what breed. Part of the licensing process would be limitations on the number of bitches which could be breed under one license, the frequency of the litters and the number of litters from one bitch, and quite possibly sire, as well. Clean and sanitary and appropriate conditons, including but not limited to food, shelter, socialization, exercise, vet care, etc. All screenings for known genetic disorders for each breed. It differs by breed, and should be required. I would like to see some system by which the better of the casual breeders (I'm substituting this term for byb--just trying it out) could be drawn in more and more closely with the model set forth by the exemplary breeders who show and do everything to the gold standard. The fact is that show breeders aren't able to fulfill the demand for even the best quality puppies, much less for those people who think that show breeders are only if you are looking for show dogs and not simply a good family companion. There aren't enough younger people coming along to take up the reins, either. It seems to me that it is in the best interests of every breed to try to mentor promising people who show some interest and some talent for producing good puppies but aren't quite 'there' yet. |
tgir wrote: Here's what I think: I think that all of the very best reputable breeders are doing a terrific job. I also think that they cannot maintain their high standards and supply the demand for OES puppies. I agree. Sophistic arguments aside, we need more breeders producing "goodenough dogs" (animals that people actually want) under healthy, humane conditions. The show breeders need to show leadership in education, not simply repeat the mantra "get the dogs from me and you'll be good. Get them elsewhere and you'll be an irresponsible idiot supporting the exploitation of dogs." I love dog shows, and this is not an attack by any means on any of the breeders posting on the forum, because by the mere fact that they are here on oes.org posting and sharing much appreciated advice satisfies me that they are doing their part in disseminating good information. While I have no doubt that the recommendation to get a top-notch dog from a responsible show breeder is well-meaning, based on my limited experience this message has been thwarted by show dog breeders who also happen to be shrewd business people. It becomes a typical exercise in marketing strategy of premium products: 1) produce actual or perceived quality in your own product ("my dogs are from champion lines, and have all certifications"); 2) marginalizing the competition ("BYBs are bad, because quality is not important to them."); 3) plant fear on consumer's mind about inadequacy of competitor's products: (e.g., "a BYB dog will probably have horrid hip dyplasia or congenital diseases"). I am cheap, and cheap is not necessarily a bad thing. For my own personal individual spending priorities, if I had $2500 to spend on a dog, I'd prefer to get a $500 dog and then donate $2000 to a rescue, than to buy a $2500 dog outright. But if other people can afford and want a super duper puppy for $2500, they should absolutely exercise their freedom of choice and go for it! |
I have at least 3 dogs from a BYB and would not trade them for anything nor do I take anyone's condescending remarks about them because I love them dearly. None of this is to make anyone feel bad about the dog they have. It's about educating people on how to purchase a dog that will have the best possible health potential. At least for me it is... 
Quote: if I had $2500 to spend on a dog, I'd prefer to get a $500 dog and then donate $2000 to a rescue, than to buy a $2500 dog outright. If people would actually take that $2,000 and donate it to rescue AND keep their dog if it has hip dysplasia, CA, a serious autoiummune condition, etc. AND, in the case of HD, pay to have either FHO or total hip replacement, I would say this is wonderfully fabulous. If they just keep their dog and get it the care it needs, that would be responsible. Quote: plant fear on consumer's mind about inadequacy of competitor's products: (e.g., "a BYB dog will probably have horrid hip dyplasia or congenital diseases") It's more about buyers making informed decisions... I would think that many people who buy from a BYB are uninformed... at least I surely was. Have you ever had a dog with hip dysplasia or lived with one that has this condition? I never did before Panda but we wanted another special needs dog. Allow me to share Panda's HD with you... * Here are her x-rays at 9 months of age, not long before she was surrendered to rescue- http://oesusa.com/MadisonXray.jpg . And these were taken later on- http://oesusa.com/PandaXray1.jpg Note that socket is supposed to tightly cradle the head of the femur... this article from OFFA.org shows the differences- http://offa.org/hipgrade.html NOTE: According to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, of the 9,985 Old English Sheepdogs rated from 1974 to 2007, 18.9% were dysplastic... so IF my math is right, this means of those 9,985 OESs, 1,887 dogs had some level of hip dysplasia. That's close to 1 in 5... right?  So this is not simply a marketing ploy but rather a real concern. http://offa.org/hipstatbreed.html* At least two owners that we know of did not keep Panda. So she went from the breeder, to probably her first home (we can only track it back as far as this owner), to a humane society for 3 weeks, then her second home, then to OES rescue, then to her third home all by the time she was 10 1/2 months old. So the HD, the bladder defect and later the separation anxiety that resulted were difficulties the previous owners were unable to cope with. * She has had to endure the pain of this condition. I really wish I had taken movies when she first arrived but you can see how she moved in these still shots that were taken the first few days after she arrived- http://oesusa.com/Panda2005.jpg * She did improve greatly after we had her but she will never be normal. She cannot go for long walks... she cannot play for extended periods of time... she sometimes has difficulty standing from a down position... oh yeah, and she "tap dances" if she has an itch... my son is home and asked what the heck she was doing because she was tapping her hind foot- I told him she has an itch but can't scratch it so go scratch her. If her chin itches, she's found that she can sit on the edge of the Kuranda bed, lower her face so she can scratch it. Her hind legs just will not raise that high. And if she over-extends a hind leg, she'll have pain that makes her limp for a few days. At some point she may have to endure surgery if her condition becomes truly debilitating again. I love her so much... she sleeps on my left side each and every night... she's an exuberant, fun loving, mouthy and rowdy girl. I wish I had had the power to save her from this condition. Since I couldn't do that, I figured I'd try to do the next best thing... she took part in the gene study to try to identify the genes that cause hip dysplasia in Old English Sheepdogs- http://oeshealth.org/NewsFlash1.htm#200701HipStudy . Maybe her affliction might some day help to prevent others from suffering the same genetic problem. This is just one person's reason for wanting pretesting and a knowledgeable/experienced breeder and not the haphazard bringing together of two OESs because they're pretty in the breeder's eyes. Where did this $2,500 price tag come from? Was there actually a show breeder you spoke with that wanted this amount for a pet quality dog? I just haven't found this high a price in my recent search... Quote: The show breeders need to show leadership in education, not simply repeat the mantra "get the dogs from me and you'll be good.
There are show breeders that already mentor... did you know this? What exactly should they be teaching BYBs and where are all these BYBs that actually want to learn? |
| Part of the issue from where I am is that the premium breeder charge so much for their dogs.
Quick story. I was in contact with a premium show quality breeder. I wanted a pet quality puppy. I told her this multiple times. She offered be a two year old dog that was found to have genetic defect for $1500. I balked. The then told me that I could get a retread show dog (18 Mo) for $2000. The dog had a disqualification that would not allow it to be shown. When I balked again, She told me that I would get what I paid for by going somewhere else. I guess when you are the "best" and have "the best". You can have a little bit of an attitude. I am sorry that I will not pay $2000 for someone elses dog when I wanted a puppy for my son to grow up with. The fact is that a good owner researches the dog they want. They know what the risks would be. Even with the best breeder there are risks. The risks are lower if the breeder will take the dog back, but there are risks. That is why I love this site so much. People on this board love dogs and especially OES. They know what they are talking about and want to inform others. I learned the hard way... Let the show people sell to the show people. I will do my research and find the best BYB there is for my dog. If I pay $1000 -$1200 for a puppy and have to take a little bit of a risk, then I will live with it. Either way I can assure you one thing. The dog will be loved. |
Quote: I will do my research and find the best BYB there is for my dog. If I pay $1000 -$1200 for a puppy and have to take a little bit of a risk, then I will live with it. This is all well and good---you are willing to take the risk--of what? spending a lot of money for medical care for a dog with a preventable genetic condition? What about the risk of debilitating illness or pain to the poor puppy who had no chance to purchase better parents? No matter how much you would love any dog, you would not be the one who was in pain because of a debilitating illness or condition. Quote: The risks are lower if the breeder will take the dog back,
The risks are lower if the breeder is careful and knowledgeable enough to research the medical history of the sire and dam and to do the requisite testing to ensure that only animals who have a low risk of passing on deletrious genetic conditons are bred. I don't think anybody here will argue that you have the right to risk your money. The issue is the risk to the puppies throughout their lives. This is what I want to prevent. Hey, I don't say this lightly: my dogs all came from various degrees of byb. So far, we've been lucky--and by we, I mean my dogs. The other part of the equation--and this is the one that I wrestle with from several different angles is: breeders who show are more likely to have available puppies which truly represent the best of the breed--looks and temperment wise--in addition to health. |
Quote: I learned the hard way... Let the show people sell to the show people. I will do my research and find the best BYB there is for my dog. If I pay $1000 -$1200 for a puppy and have to take a little bit of a risk, then I will live with it. Either way I can assure you one thing. The dog will be loved.
Did you know that the highest price you mentioned is only $300 less than prices I got for a pet-quality OES puppy from two OESCA show breeders who test extensively and have decades of breeding experience? I guess this is my point... maybe you don't need to spend $2,500 for a pet-quality OES from a show breeder. Whatever breeder you go with, OESCA or BYB, ask what conditions have appeared in the lines or if specific conditions have appeared in the lines. Someone that has a sister of Kaytee's had lost two dogs purchased from a different breeder to autoimmune disease by the ages of 2 years and 4 years and both her dogs had the same parents so it's important for me to know if autoimmune problems have appeared in the lines... the same with hip dysplasia. I don't want to find Canine Ataxia either. I didn't realize this when I first started searching but I later found it's probably best for my dog to be raised in a home rather than strictly a kennel environment. Ask for the sire's/dam's names, you can check OFA and CERF result- OFA- http://offa.org/search.html CERF- http://www.vmdb.org/verify.html This is only my first time at trying to buy a dog with the best potential for good health AND temperament so hopefully others with more experience will chime in. Me... I forgot to ask to see the contract.  |
| Madegg, from your location and the words you used, I can pretty much guess who you spoke with. That is probably the only breeder who charges that much for their dogs and uses those terms in that way. Most breeders that I show with charge between $1500 and $1800 for their dogs; so it isn't that far off what you are willing to pay! Also, most of them don't have quite the elitist attitude that you ran into. Please don't take 1 breeder's prices and attitude as the model for what everyone else is doing. You may still have a great experience with another great breeder without having to jump through hoops to do it. |
We spent $1,200 for Edgar as a puppy two years ago from a breeder on the official list. Stick with the list if you can  . You will be able to find what you want. Our breeders were very nice. |
Madegg wrote: I learned the hard way... Let the show people sell to the show people. I will do my research and find the best BYB there is for my dog. If I pay $1000 -$1200 for a puppy and have to take a little bit of a risk, then I will live with it. Either way I can assure you one thing. The dog will be loved.
You're selling yourself short to do that. There are definitely a lot of "show" breeders that don't charge such a premium price and you'll still get a fantastic dog right around the $1300 to $1500 range with a lot less risk than a BYB. I know you'll love any dog that you'll get but definitely give a few others a try first before letting one bad experience scare you off. There are a lot of great breeders out there breeding for the betterment of the OES and they're worth checking out. I know a lot of our forum members would be happy to give you some recommendations. |
ButtersStotch wrote: There are a lot of great breeders out there breeding for the betterment of the OES and they're worth checking out. Just wondering... if they want to improve the breed, how come they don't allow non-show dogs from excellent lines or their champion dogs to be used as AI sires for the pet trade?
Isn't there some way that we could get some of those excellent genes out into the wild to reduce hip issues and eye issues and... |
Ron wrote: ButtersStotch wrote: There are a lot of great breeders out there breeding for the betterment of the OES and they're worth checking out. Just wondering... if they want to improve the breed, how come they don't allow non-show dogs from excellent lines or their champion dogs to be used as AI sires for the pet trade?Isn't there some way that we could get some of those excellent genes out into the wild to reduce hip issues and eye issues and... Well, if you take hip issues as an example, hip dysplasia (CHD) has a polygenic mode of inheritance and breeding to one nice show dog with good hips won't mean squat if you're breeding a dysplastic bitch, which you probably don't know about because you didn't x-ray her in the first place, and then don't screen the next generation and thereafter and so on. The genes of CH sires (and dams) have inadvertently - one presumes - been let loose in the "pet trade" time and time again via pets that were supposed to have been s/n and weren't - I know, I enjoy tracking pedigrees of all sorts - and after very few generations they have little to no positive health impact since their get are being bred as indiscriminantly from a health point of view as anything else out there. So what's the point? If we could just breed an OFA excellent dog to an OFA excellent bitch and be assured that their get would magically never, ever produce CHD, then I guess using the well-screened, carefully bred dogs to sort of assure that breeders who can't be bothered to do health screening and so on themself were producing better dogs. But the whole point is that you have to KEEP screening, generation after generation, whether it's genotypically or phenotypically, depending on what tests are available. The showbreeders do. Most pet only breeders don't. Whether the showbreeders intentionally allowed their dogs to be used or not has virtually zero impact in such an environment. And that's just for CHD. There are a number of other health issues you need to track. Many of these breeders don't even bother to research what health issues are of concern in the breed. Once money has exchanged hands the future of the pup is of no concern to them so there is really no incentive to care about what they produce. Bottom line is it's pretty much a lost cause unless you can convince these other breeders to take breeding more seriously and at least do the most basic of health screening. And until their puppy buyers demand it, why would they? It's a purely profit driven market and if you are breeding for that market and there is no perceived value added to spending money to screen for health issues, why bother? The irony, based on this conversation, seems to be that a number of these breeders are charging more for their pups than a lot of show breeders I know. I think they can afford to spend some $$$ and get the parents' hips x-rayed and eyes checked at least. Regular thyroid checks would be nice too. BAER testing as well. The kind of things that might actually have some positive impact. Kristine |
Ron wrote: Just wondering... if they want to improve the breed, how come they don't allow non-show dogs from excellent lines or their champion dogs to be used as AI sires for the pet trade?
Isn't there some way that we could get some of those excellent genes out into the wild to reduce hip issues and eye issues and... I'm going to speculate the answer to your question is that there are too many unknowns to just make collecting dogs for AI's to become available. A breeder who prides themself on breeding the ethically would worry about where these puppies were going, especially if their reputable kennel name was attached to them. The nice thing about the Old English Sheepdog Club of America is that there are rules, checks and balances among the members to ensure that their peers are doing the right thing. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, and people do make bad choices, but ultimately they will suffer the consequences by getting ousted by the organization. Most of the show breeders that I know personally sell most of their OES puppies to pet homes. I'm not sure how the "show vs. pet" puppy has gotten misconstrued. Ideally a breeder would want all of their bred puppies to be show-worthy to live up to the breed standard. Realistically, showing is not even a consideration for most people, and that leaves plenty of quality puppies available. I think the misnomer about people contacting breeders asking for "pet quality" puppies is that they see this as an opportunity for a discounted price, whatever that price may be. I also really don't understand why a "backyard breeder" would not try to join their national breed club to at least be a part of the breed as much as they can, especially when they are producing puppies. I've seen the excuses written here that these breeders: "don't like the politics", "don't want to show", etc. You do NOT have to show to be a member, but understanding the standard is a lot more than reading text books. There are politics which sometimes can get tiring, but you have to step back and think that this a passionate group of people. These dogs are their lives, just like how it is for most of us members here on the forum. |
Quote: . I'm not sure how the "show vs. pet" puppy has gotten misconstrued. Ideally a breeder would want all of their bred puppies to be show-worthy to live up to the breed standard. Realistically, showing is not even a consideration for most people, and that leaves plenty of quality puppies available.
I think the misnomer about people contacting breeders asking for "pet quality" puppies is that they see this as an opportunity for a discounted price, whatever that price may be. I suppose I stumbled across the terminology of 'show quality' vs 'pet quality' while puppy hunting (whether I was actually looking for a puppy or not) and took it at face value. Rather than say that someone looking for a 'pet quality' puppy is looking for a discounted puppy, I have to say that I knew I wasn't interested in showing/breeding and so didn't want to pay an extra premium for a puppy the breeder thought would do well showing. Of course, I always realized that it is not possible to know a puppy's full potential at 10 weeks or 10 months, for that matter, but I understood why someone would attach a higher premium on some particularly valuable characteristic or set of characteristics. As for why people do what they do--how can we ever really know?: sure, I've known bybs who were obviously trying to supplement their income via puppies. I've also known ones who simply loved their breed, put a lot of effort into understanding what went into a good breeding pair, researched the lines, took great care to socialize, to choose parents who had excellent temperments, great conformation, great health. A few days ago, I was digging through this forum to see what posts I could find about actually how to get into showing your dog. I can't find it right now, but someone went into great detail about the day of the show. And it confirmed that this is something that I don't think would ever be my thing. There's nothing wrong with it: it's just not me. Which is probably why I can see why some breeders would elect not to show. That I understand. It isn't even the expense or the money (and I know it takes a LOT of both) but simply the whole thing of it. It's just not me. As for being members of their breed club--I don't know about why you wouldn't, unless you didn't want to face the disapproval of breeding but not showing. And I've found that in general, some people are joiners, some are not. |
Quote: I think the misnomer about people contacting breeders asking for "pet quality" puppies is that they see this as an opportunity for a discounted price, whatever that price may be. I think this Boxer World article said it well... Quote: What is the difference between a show quality and pet quality puppy? Very little! If you buy from a reputable breeder, that is. The difference between a show quality puppy (or more correctly, a show potential puppy) and a pet quality puppy may be as little as different, more evenly or attractively placed markings. A reputable breeder breeds every litter for the best quality healthiest puppies possible, with the aim of producing dogs that closely fit the standard, or blueprint, for the breed. What makes one puppy a better show prospect than another is a matter of judgement (and some guesswork!) as to which will develop the best structure, markings and personality to make it in the showring and ultimately to breeding the next generation. There may be a price difference between show prospect and pet puppies, but this should be minimal as all puppies in a litter have required the same investment in time, money and health testing... Source: http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/view_boxer-dog-faq.htm |
Cadenza wrote: We can only minimize it through education, spay and neuter, consciousness raising, public campaigns, and public and private subsidies. And unless we force pet owners to forego pet ownership altogether, insisting that people only get puppies from boutique show dog breeders will do nothing to address this problem.
Having read this post multiple times. I still am not quite sure which "side of the fence" you sit on. But the last sentence keeps coming back to me over and over. Perhaps some people should forego pet ownership. The majority of the abandoned, abused, and poroblem dogs come from owners who should never have owned them to begin with. The overcrowded shelters and rescues are a direct result of irresponsible breeding. If people were required to obtain dogs only from reputable breeders and pay for the value of that service there would not be so many impulse purchses and ill thought out aquisitions that ended up being abused and abandoned. If we really have an problem with supply and demand, and if 6,000,000 puppies are required every year to fill that need there would not be a single shelter or rescue in this country. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: If people were required to obtain dogs only from reputable breeders and pay for the value of that service there would not be so many impulse purchses and ill thought out aquisitions that ended up being abused and abandoned.
I am sure you aren't trying to imply that only people who can afford relatively expensive pets should be able to have them. I think we need to look at the issue form all sides. I know my parents would never had been able to purchase a dog that cost the equivalent of what I paid for my dogs. nor could I have done it at another time in my life. there need to be GOOD alternatives for everyone. not sure what they are but let's keep everyone in mind please. For some people the purchase of a dog at $600 takes as much forethought and planning as someone else's $2,000 dog. in the case of need they will turn to their credit cards like many on this list and give the dog the best possible care and a great home. I think I may be wrong here, but names like Michael Vick come to mind, the well off aren't immune from abuse and neglect tendencies. There has to be more than one solution to any social problem. |
| It was a comment said a bit tongue in cheeck in response to the previous poster. You have referenced only a part of my comment. Owning an animal is not a right, it is a privilage.
BUT, I am not sure that it isn't a good idea for aquisition of an animal to include financial committment. Many animals are turned into shelters daily because they turn up with medical problems that the owners cannot afford to pay for. I feel very strongly that if you cannot provide the medical needs that arise during the lifetime of an animal you should not be owning an animal. I am not saying that ALL animals should have EVERYTHING done but too many people take on the responsibility without looking down the road. How many dogs are there aut there that don't even receive "routine" vet care because their owners can't afford it. I'm just saying, it is something to think about. |
I agree it something to look at but I also think that purchase price and ability to pay for or willlingness to pay for the adequate level of care are two differnt issues. wouldn't it be better for a good home where cost of care can be "managed" than a bad home that can afford anything? ALso coming up with $2000 at one time with tuition and bills and kid costs is different than coming up with a few hundred for other costs. and most of us live on the edge financially anyway who are we kidding  |
| Well, I am not sure where you came up with the figure of $2000 since I never mentioned a specific amount one should "have" to pay for an animal. I don't know that there is a "magical sum" one should pay for a dog. What is more important is that you be prepared financial to take care of the needs of the dog for life. From my own experience I know that if you cannot pay for a large unexpected medical bill you should post pone animal ownership until you can. |
| reasonable people can disagree on details. I think we are saying the same thing with the one caveat I have that good caring people can afford to care for a dog properly and may not be able to come up with the $2,000 (approximately) it takes to purchase a well bred dog from a "responsible breeder". (only in quotes cause I am quoting you) |
Quote: I agree it something to look at but I also think that purchase price and ability to pay for or willlingness to pay for the adequate level of care are two differnt issues.
They are different things. The latter is the most important in my view... providing necessary medical/nutritional care, no matter where you purchased your dog, should the need arise. Not everyone is financially able to provide an adequate level of care if it involves surgery or continuous care. If the buyer was barely able to afford the purchase price of the dog, hopefully they're willing and able to put vet care on plastic rather than allowing the dog to suffer (they could face neglect charges for not providing necessary care). There are a lot of dogs that are surrendered to rescues/shelters that haven't even been spayed/neutered because the owners couldn't afford it... this is the absolute minimum of being a responsible pet owner. |
6Girls wrote: Not everyone is financially able to provide an adequate level of care if it involves surgery or continuous care. If the buyer was barely able to afford the purchase price of the dog, hopefully they're willing and able to put vet care on plastic rather than allowing the dog to suffer (they could face neglect charges for not providing necessary care). While what you are saying maybe true, I wouldn't have the heart to deny some people their pets. In the urban areas of California you see a number of homeless who own dogs. For many street people their dogs are their most prized possession, and often they will manage to feed their dogs before they feed themselves. 6Girls wrote: There are a lot of dogs that are surrendered to rescues/shelters that haven't even been spayed/neutered because the owners couldn't afford it... this is the absolute minimum of being a responsible pet owner. My local municipal animal shelter in does a superb job, putting even the operation at the local humane society to shame. One of the services they provide is free or low-cost ($25) spay/neuter vouchers for the asking, for both cats and dogs, redeemable at local privately-run veterinary clinics. |
Quote: While what you are saying maybe true, I wouldn't have the heart to deny some people their pets. In the urban areas of California you see a number of homeless who own dogs. For many street people their dogs are their most prized possession, and often they will manage to feed their dogs before they feed themselves. Yes, I do know this... being poor and living on the streets does not take away your compassion and love for your companion pet. If you'll notice, I said... Quote: The latter is the most important in my view... providing necessary medical/nutritional care, no matter where you purchased your dog, should the need arise. I would think that the homeless people you mentioned in your area probably have an easier time finding free health care for their dog if they have a serious, painful health condition. I saw a show once where the local shelter, in a big city, basically boarded a dog for a homeless person so they could get medical treatment themselves. They also vetted the dog and got it up to date on vaccinations. But how many outside your area don't have this service available to them? I don't care who you are or how much you make... you do NOT allow a pet suffer. Honest... there are MUCH worse ways to go than being humanely euthanized. I guess our life experiences make us who we are and help form our opinions. If you've had to watch loved ones slowly die due to terminal illnesses, you see first had the suffering that is possible for all living creatures. Some of us are protected from ever viewing this suffering. I honestly don't think compassion is something that can be taught... and THAT is part of the problem. And this is not about the snob factor... it's about the responsibility people have to their pets. I know what it's like to be poor... not the out-on-the-streets type poor but poor none the less. We did not have a dog either. I also understand that bad things can happen in good people's lives that force them to make the difficult decision to surrender a pet and they should not be shamed for this. It's usually before they've allowed their pet to suffer or get in deplorable condition though. Maybe I missed your answer... have you ever had a dog with hip dysplasia or another genetic defect and witnessed the suffering?? Have you personally ever assisted a rescue or a local shelter to see the condition dogs come in? Granted, your city has a well thought out plan that's working so the dogs always come in spayed/neutered. If you haven't ever done this, you might consider fostering a special needs dog as just a way to broaden your understanding about at least trying to prevent preventable genetic conditions through responsible breeding practices. Me, I had never had a dog with hip dysplasia... (yeah, the story yet again  ) we felt we could help one more special dog so I purposely chose a dog that would be difficult to place. I was willing to learn what I could do to make this dog's life better when others chose to surrender the "challenge"... she's a dog that had been rehomed 2 times before coming to us and had spent 3 weeks at a humane society and a little time with OES rescue by the age of 10 1/2 months. Yeah, I even paid $300 to get her to me. Because of this dog, I have very strong feelings about minimum breeding requirements all breeders should follow in order to be ethical. Quote: My local municipal animal shelter in does a superb job, putting even the operation at the local humane society to shame. One of the services they provide is free or low-cost ($25) spay/neuter vouchers for the asking, for both cats and dogs, redeemable at local privately-run veterinary clinics.
That's fabulous for YOUR city and that they offer this for all pets. I'm not being a SA about this... I wish all cities offered this. I hope you understand that your sharing what's going on inside your little bubble though. I can tell you that MY area doesn't offer this. IF you were to adopt a female dog over 50 pounds from MY local Humane Society, you are offered low-cost spay/neuter of that particular pet only and the low-cost fee is $140... $120 for under 50 pounds. I just got off the phone with them. This "discounted" service is not offered to anyone else or for any other pets. 3 years ago I had found a stray cat and I was getting her ready to turn over to rescue. http://oesusa.com/Kitty/Mary.htm The local Humane Society refused to take her... they weren't taking in any more cats (didn't matter that we had donated $2,000+ in new items for them to raffle off). We did find a rescue that would take her and... lucky us!... we I got the rescue discount It cost close to $300 to have her spayed, fully tested and vaccinated. We actually had the spay done by our own vet because the fee was a little lower! Please remember that some large cities provide this service to ALL their residents but many of small cities just don't have this type of funding available.
Did you know that many rescues have to pay full price to get dogs going through rescue properly vetted meaning spayed/neutered, tested, vaccinated, etc.? The vet only has so much time in a day and has to make a living too. I hope some of the rescues will share with you what they have to pay to simply get a female OES vetted and ready to place. I was shocked what one midwest rescue has to pay for a spay... it's more that my own vet charges for my "pets"!
Stepping off my soapbox now... |
| In my opinion, this is absolutely a no win situation. I have not contributed to this topic since I until now really refused to be a part of it, since I know how nasty other show breeders can be( I have heard many times bitter breeders trashing other breeders), especially when your dogs are winning in the show ring. This seems to be the magic cue to be pegged as a "puppy mill".
Well apparently its now my turn! It was brought to my attention today that apparently I am a new target for a few breeders. Apparently I have too many litters a year vs their standards, so I am a bad bad breeder. In 2006, I had 1 litter. In 2007, get ready, BIG GASP, I had THREE LITTERS!!!!! The first litter of that year resulted in one puppy, who I am proud to say received her first set of points last week-end! The other two litters have started making their show debuts. We have 3 Champions so far from those litters, one that will be making her show debut the end of this month, and a male who I am sure has almost completed his US Championship. I also should brag, as I am sure their owners would be happy to, about the other pups who have made the most wonderfull family pets, which in my opinion is just as important as having a great show dog, since even the show dogs are first and foremost our devoted pets. Health testing on my breeding dogs-done! Championships on my breeding dogs-done! Health concerns - other then poor Tucker with whom we all know hit a tree which resulted in a Staph Infection, none to date....knock on wood. I have bragging rights on my dogs hips.....so I don't know.....if this makes me a bad breeder than I guess I am the worst!! Hey, even with the best of intentions and the most carefull planning things can creep up on you unexpectedly. Its how they are dealt with in my opinion that makes a great breeder
I have been showing since I was 11 years old, and trust me, it is only the true love and passion for this breed that has kept me going. Growing up, wanting to learn.....nobody helped me! I did it all on my own. You would all laugh if you seen how my first few show dogs were trimmed. But I would watch and learn, and keep trying. I truly love showing, and I really really fear for our breed when the breeders that are on track and breeding responsibly in my opinion are criticized. Hearing all the crap you hear would be a discouragement to most. But not to me, which is why any time someone new approaches me with a genuine interest in learning to show and eventually breed I welcome them with open arms and offer every bit of guidance and help I can to keep them on track....even if they don't have a puppy from me! I plan on showing and breeding OES until old age dictates that I no longer can, which hopefully is at least another 40 years My plea is to the next generation of breeders to please not follow in the footsteps of SOME of the older breeders and not be so vicious! Let's all be kind, helpfull. The future of our breed is counting on it! |
| Amber,
Thanks to you I have the most beautiful healthy OES I have ever had the pleasure to be owned by. When his brains kick in all the way (1 yr old) he will be perfect. It's breeders like you and Ali that have inspired me so much that I do want to show eventually. I want to get the teenagers on their way to college first. The one litter a year thing is nonsense if you are actively showing like you do. You need to have dogs to show, and when they finish, new guys to show to their championships. Thank you for being so active in showing our breed...we need to keep the numbers up in the shows. |
| If the boy Amber is referring to is my Gabriel. I am PROUD to say he has 10 points with limited showing, had back to back BOW last weekend, and yesterday was BOB against several lovely bitch specials! This guy is from a "puppymill", as Amber knows a term thrown around just to be malicous. I myself have been called a "puppymill" when the fact is I have never had a litter and never will. It's a sad commentary on the breed that breeders feel the need to be so nasty toward each other, it only serves to hurt the breed. I know of breeders who don't know me but will barely speak to me because I didn't buy a dog from them. If this breed is to stay strong we need the breeders to help each other, not fight each other. The best solution is to let your dogs speak for your superior breeding by winning |
| Let me tell you all, I am PROUD to know Amber and praise her to everyone i know! She is NOT a puppymill and i will be the first person to tell anyone this........
I too try to help everyone and fear for this breed in the future if we don't start being nice to each other. What a wonderful change it was in Chicago we all had lunch and everyone at least appeard to be having a good time and nice to each other. It was great to have people actually HAPPY to see you........ and help you with some grooming tips too! COMPEITION at that! Holly, CONGRATULATIONS on your BOB! I was hoping to see you in Chicago but glad you had your wonderful win in OHIO........ |
| Thanks Ali, it just didn't work out timewise. Congrats to you and your boy, nice going . I was looking forward to seeing another Beamer boy, maybe we'll see you at the nationals. |
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