Buying a Quality Old english sheepdog

Hello ,
I have been reading past posts of people looking for a source to acquire and old english sheepdog puppy. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

There are three types of Breeders
The first is the one who breeds for greed, you will find these puppies in pet stores auctions and puppy Mills and some on the web or rescue

The second who breeds out of ignorance
Some of these breeders I feel do love there dogs and the dogs they produce ,However they do not have the knowledge to breed -heathy well ajusted puppies that adhere to the oes Standard and do not show there dogs because they don't think it is important or has anything to do with breeding better dogs. They do not generally screen potential owners of the offspring they produce. These puppies can be found from ad's run in local newspapers or the web or flyers you might find at your local supermarket or rescue.

The third breeds for the betterment of the breed.
They can not guarentee a heathy dog but they do everything in there power to produce one . They belong to a club, they show there stock, They screen the dogs before being bred .They grill potential owners as to there capability to care for one of there oes. They are there for the life of the dog with advice and mentoring and will always take back a dog for what ever reason and make sure they are the first one contacted if that situation arose. The puppies in each litter are graded pet or show quality and placed accordingly. The money involved in the transaction is secondary to the correct placement. This breeders goal is to produce an oes sound in mind and body with the capacity to live a full heathy life and be a member of a loving home and some of these dogs are chosen to carry on a thought- out breeding program with the goal of having better puppies in the next litter.
You will generally find these breeders at akc dog shows, specialty shows Westminster dog show, oesca website under breeders and some even are now on the web (very few). If you speak to them and they do not have a litter they can tell you if one is planned or refer you to another breeder who might have or will shortly have a litter.

Breeder three is the only way to go. If you love the old english sheepdog ask yourself why, Is it the shaggy coat,the bear like shuffle is it the sweet temperment. is it the ability to herd the list can go on and on about what makes an old english sheepdog an old english sheepdog and breeder number three is pationate about producing the true to standard oes.
Most of these breeders stock has crossed with other type three breeders stock in past generations however they have not crossed at all with breeder number one or two. What breed is number one and two producing? I like to think of the offspring of breeder one and two as a fake designer watch or pocketbook, to the lay-person they may look like the real thing ,but really they have nothing to do with the genuine article.

Respond to this topic here on forum.oes.org

Nice!!

I like the "breed for greed."

I agree with most of what was said. My only concern is that under Breed for Greed, rescue was mentioned. While rescue ends up with some of these dogs, we certainly aren't breeding them, much less making a profit. Maybe I am just interperting that sentence wrong?

Some puppy mills hide behind "rescue." Then sometimes people assume rescues should come free or a greatly reduced rate like the shelters. Well, shelters don't do the health, meds, training, grooming that rescues do, plus all the leg work in home checks, etc. All costs money. If reputable rescues made money on their dogs, then they wouldn't be begging for money, having bake sales, garage sales, on line auctions, etc.

So I'm assuming the poster meant those other types of "rescues" or is just uninformed.

SheepieBoss wrote:

I took it to mean that the mill and BYB dogs are the most likely to end up in rescue. I.e. where do you find dogs from the first two groups - you acquire them via the following sources: you either buy them via X, Y, Z method of advertizing or recycle them through rescue. The first time I read it I didn't get hung up on the money issue, I went, whoa! are you saying rescue BREEDS these dogs???? Then I read it again.

Otherwise I thought it in many ways the best summary I've seen of the distinction of the three. It's obviously written by someone who knows the issues inside and out, and parts of what was captured I've never seen discussed anywhere but on this forum, so why write it as a guest? Cleaned up a bit and with a source I might have asked to borrow it since our local OES club is finally getting a website :banana:

and we're were just talking about people's inability to distinguish between types of breeders.

It's even better than my "You might be a backyard breeder if...." list that I started a while back on an OES e-mail list. I donated the (borrowed) concept plus listings to the head of rescue nationally to work up into something useful if she wants. The most noteworthy part was part 3 because it's the first time I've seen someone who truly grasped what a reputable breeder should be all about. If people are going to get hung up on rescue, it would probably have been better to remove that refererence all together, though the short of it is that rescue is indeed a source of mill and BYB dogs - we just don't produce them, rather, we end up rehoming them because their producers won't take them back, and we rarely make money off of them. Or rather, it evens out in the end.

Since Wisconsin is a pretty small rescue run through the local OES breed club and I happen to be treasurer of that club, I actually track expenses versus donations for each dog, as well as cummulatively, and on some dogs we come back with a loss, and on others a small profit, and hopefully it all evens out. The seed money so we could pay medical expenses and so on was simply donated by the club and we hold some raffles and such throughout the year so we can hopefully keep an adequate cushion in the rescue fund, but, yeah, most rescues aren't exactly rich. Then again, neither are reputable breeders. Or rather, if they are, it ain't because of their dogs, quite the opposite. This hobby, if done properly, is a huge black hole monetarily, so you really have to love it and your dogs or you'd find a much less expensive hobby :lol:

That's why I just love this anti-breeder sentiment and accompanying legislation that is sweeping the US right now. Every time the issue comes up you inevitably get this lovely rhetoric directed at all those nasty, greedy breeders and there really is no distinguishing. I'm thinking more and more that we really need to track and publish our accounts. Though if we actually were a business entity we'd be the laughing stock of the business world. :lol:

The irony is that even though you often, but far from always, pay more for a puppy from a reputable breeder than the other sources, proper accounting methods would actually reveal that in most cases your puppy has been subsidized, some times heavily, by the breeder. But that's OK, she wasn't breeding to supply you with a puppy to begin with: she was breeding for herself.

Kristine

I have to agree with almost everything that is said here, with the exception of something that has been bugging me for some time now. Please dont shoot me over this its just my opinion. Let me first explain myself without losing anyone.

My friend breeds standard poodles. No she doesnt show. She doesnt have time. SHe only breeds occasionally and people from all around request her pups. She has a very good reputation. So that being said I dont agree on the show aspect. She produces well tempered, healthy pups that are the "real thing" She only breeds when she has enough requests because she doesnt want to have puppy overload with nowhere to go. But in everyones opinion here, because she doesnt show, she's considered a backyard breeder. I dont consider her that. sorry. and again I'm not trying to argue just stating how I feel.

I've seen poorly bred dogs and have owned a few because of my soft hearted protective side. so big difference between what my friend does and that.

OKAY on to the next thing. As far as breeding show quality dogs with champion parents here's the thing with the price they go for and the contracts that go with them yes people are in it for money as well as love of the breed. Yes they love the breed but there is an awful lot of money involved. and some of those contracts are ridiculous. I want to own my puppy outright.

I dont want to breed any of my dogs,
in fact my shepherd is spayed and one of my oes will be fixed trying to decide which one because I would love to show, and do agility with one of them. I dont want to breed any of my dogs. Never have and never want that responsibility. My mother used to have a stud minature poodle and this was back in the early 70's when they still killed the pups that werent marked properly. The owner of the bitch set aside a pup that was no lie, lol marked like a skunk to be killed my mother opted to take him instead of her stud fee. That incident left a big mark on me and I never want the responsibility of bringing pups in the world I love them too much. and also the stud my mom owned got nasty because of being intact.

PS ron please edit this if you find it offensive I know I am stating my opinion and I am open to others opinions. Thanks

Psht, well, I'm not Ron, but in my mind yours was a really well thought out and nicely presented post. It's not like we can't differ in our opinions.

The reason for the show aspects - or for some breeds, working line BCs for instance, work aspect: dogs must prove themselves in some capacity as a good working dog - is that by not showing, or trialing (or herding or hunting or sledding etc depending on the breed), you really have no measure of what is an appropriate example of the breed. So in the Std poodle case, it's great that she does health testing and breeds for nice temperaments and I'm presuming she stands behind her dogs and takes them back, so, really, she may be breeding very nice dogs, but they may or may not be nice poodles. How would she know? She has nothing to measure her dogs against. That is a BYB, but a grey area BYB - we have some in our breed too. And I've said it before, I have no beef with them because they try to breed healthy dogs with nice temperaments and supply a market show breeders cannot, and they don't burden rescue in the process. That's just my opinion.

As for owning a dog outright - if what you want is a pet, then you can typically find one. In the US, show dogs that may be bred are typically co-owned unless they are sold to another experienced breeder because responsible means responsible and selling a novice an intact dog with no oversight is not very responsible.

I co-owned my first two OES from a reputable breeder (my first ever was from a BYB and I owned her outright - whoopdeedo) I paid for neither: both were given to me - one as an adult after she had finished her championships in a couple of countries and been bred once - she was my first agility dog and as it happens she's spayed now. I was given the other as a puppy with the understanding that IF she turned out (i.e she finished her CH and passed her health clearances and we could find an appropriate male) she would be bred once. She did and she was. I still co-own her, though the breeder has no claim to her and if I wanted to I could go to her and say: sign her over to me, please. And she would. But I don't want that - I'm proud to co-own the dog with her. She is my mentor and friend.

Now I co-own one of my younger girl's puppies and own two more outright. Of the latter two, the boy is neutered and his sister may be spayed down the line when she is mature enough - even though I prefer my performance dogs, especially, to be intact (healthier, but has to be balanced against the incovenience and added responsibility). We may or may not decide to breed the co-owned sister some day. I don't want to go it alone - I'm still too novice and it's too much responsibility.

Different way of looking at it, but I get what I want: which is a say in trying to breed the type of OES I like - in addition to the obvious, healthy, nice temperament, bred with the standard in mind - one that hopefully has some type of working ability.

For some, that would be untenable, and that's fine. There are other options and each breeder is different within a basic framework, so you talk to different breeders until you find one you want to work with and who wants to work with you. If what you want is a nice pet, none of this applies and most, if they insist on co-owning at all, will only do so until proof of spay/neuter had been presented. But will they be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your puppy's life? You bet. Whether they sold the dog outright or not, they are ultimately responsible for that dog for life. That is our code of ethics. But that also means they'll be there when you have health and grooming and training etc questions. So will rescue, when people decide to go that route instead. In either case I consider it a bonus, not a burden.

Kristine

I do not show, I wanted a pet...
And hey, I don't want to offend you either, so maybe we can share the same soapbox?

Does your friend also get the necessary health checks and certifications?
Does she spend thousands to find out if the bloodline will have genetic issues?
Thyroid, Hip, elbow, eyes, heart? (this list could go on)
Would she take a dog back if need be?
I could care less if my dogs sire was a champion, but if he is going to be blind by 3 yrs old, that concerns me.
I just rescued my first OES, who was badly bred... It drives me insane not knowing what to watch for.
He has bad teeth, puppy celucitis, and any number of other crazy medical conditons and I won't be watching for and if he gets sick my vet won't know he's predisposed to.
They may not figure it out till he's dead.
He's just under 5 months, and is 65 lbs. The people I rescued him from were actually his 3rd home, and they had him in a crate the size of a laundry basket, because they thought he was going to be the size of a collie.
The breeder was contacted, but did not want his sickly puppy back.
Oh yeah, and in the month that I have had him, I have spent more money at the vet than in my other OES Maisey's entire life...(whom I did not buy from a BYB)
The last vet bill was getting him fixed.
It infuriates me beyond belief when people ask "when" am I going to breed my dogs...
"Hey, they're purebred's, think of the money.."
:evil:

"Hey, it's paper...think of the dogs..."

Thank you for your responses. I understand the co-ownership thing a little better.

My friend has her poodles hip certified by the vet. All shots and worming etc is done. She does sell them with a guarentee and will take puppies back if need be. She told me a couple of years ago that she doesnt breed very often because of the expense involved. We have talked many times about puppies because of my poor shasta and rebel and the horrible things they had wrong.

Now let me explain something else. When I was a teen we had an oes from champion stock. Both parents. He died at an early age only 3 or 4 years because of a health problem. He was guarenteed and everything, I had bought him from a vet that bred and showed dogs. His temperment was sweet but not as sweet and docile as Beau's. He was good with strangers if he met them on their turf but not on his turf if that makes sense.

I agree with puppy mills and the sickness of the whole breeding for profit. nothing makes me more angry than the people that dont think of the puppy's health and welfare. My shasta was a product of a bob that did not give a crap about health issues, we got her for free because they had two left without homes. (Now my friend she breeds if there are buyers and not before there are requests for an average litter if that makes sense to you). Shasta was small and thin for a GSD she couldnt put on weight, was aggressive to anyone coming to our house and we definately socialize our dogs so this was a bad issue with her. She had kidney, skin, and other problems, we were always calling or at the vet with her. THESE TYPE OF BREEDERS MAKE ME ANGRY> I still think breeders should be licensed.

Quote:

"Hey, they're purebred's, think of the money.."
"Hey, it's paper...think of the dogs..."

Bravo!

Quote:

My friend has her poodles hip certified by the vet.

When you go through OFA, it's the opinion of 3rd party who's both experienced and impartial.
It's not even that expense to have done-
http://www.offa.org/feeincrease2008.pdf

Quote:

When you go through OFA, it's the opinion of 3rd party who's both experienced and impartial.
It's not even that expense to have done-
http://www.offa.org/feeincrease2008.pdf

I didnt know that. There's reason's why you let the breeding to the professionals

I didn't either until I looked it up :lol:

Maisey's Mama wrote:

I could care less if my dogs sire was a champion, but if he is going to be blind by 3 yrs old, that concerns me.

Excellent opportunity for a pop quiz!

Questions re Maisey:

1) were her dam and sire breed and/or herding champions?
2) were their hips x-rayed and evaluated?
3) were their eyes checked by a specialist?
(these two are the bare minimum health checks)
4) did her breeder educate you as to what health problems exist in the breed as a whole, and which of those may already be known to occur in his/her line in particular, and what steps s/he was taking to minimize those health risks?
5) are you in touch with the breeder and does s/he help you out when you have questions?
6) did Maisey come with a contract that said, if nothing else, in the event you cannot keep her for any reason, the breeder must be notified and s/he will take her back?

You don't have to post the answers to the list, obviously.

If you answered yes to all six, you probably got her from a reputable breeder.

If you answered yes to 2-6, you got her from a grey area BYB.

If you answered no to 1 and 6, but yes to the rest, still a slightly better than average BYB. At least some (or all) health testing was done.

If no to all...BYB or maybe a mill.

This really goes back to the original post. People can't - or prefer not to :wink:

- tell the difference between a BYB and a reputable breeder.

You and Cheyennebuford may indeed basically have the same conception of what consitutes a wonderful breeder - i.e. it's not important whether the dog resembles the breed in either form or function, but it should be a sweet, healthy dog (agreed). But that's not what a reputable OES breeder is about. That breeder breeds for all of the above including breeding for OES who actually look like OES (and, ideally, works like an OES - remember, this is a working breed, not an oversized fuzzy lap dog). There is a very fundamental difference.

Part of the difference in breeding to the standard is that it describes, among other things, how a sound (now we're talking health again) OES should be structurally put together. In describing the ideal OES it also sets forth breed "type". Type is what should tell me at a glance and with great certainly whether Maisey is indeed an OES or could she perhaps be a beardie mix. I've seen a few OES (registered, so presumably purebred) who look like a shaggy grey & white great danes. An OES should not look like a dane. It should not look like a poorly bred beardie. It should look like an OES.

Then there's my Sybil, who acts like a goat - and we won't touch on her brother, Che, who looks like a miniature Dumbo (ear set - blech!). Ah, well, nobody's perfect. But a reputable breeder does try. A not so reputable breeder could care less.

OK, off my soap box so I can groom Dumbo, the amazing OES/elephant cross. Doesn't mean I love him any less. But I do worry when he's out running on windy days... :wink:

Though I bet elephants don't mat.... :lmt:

Kristine

Mad Dog wrote:

Excellent opportunity for a pop quiz!

Questions re Maisey:

1) were her dam and sire breed and/or herding champions?
2) were their hips x-rayed and evaluated?
3) were their eyes checked by a specialist?
(these two are the bare minimum health checks)
4) did her breeder educate you as to what health problems exist in the breed as a whole, and which of those may already be known to occur in his/her line in particular, and what steps s/he was taking to minimize those health risks?
5) are you in touch with the breeder and does s/he help you out when you have questions?
6) did Maisey come with a contract that said, if nothing else, in the event you cannot keep her for any reason, the breeder must be notified and s/he will take her back?

You and Cheyennebuford may indeed basically have the same conception of what consitutes a wonderful breeder - i.e. it's not important whether the dog resembles the breed in either form or function, but it should be a sweet, healthy dog (agreed). But that's not what a reputable OES breeder is about. That breeder breeds for all of the above including breeding for OES who actually look like OES (and, ideally, works like an OES - remember, this is a working breed, not an oversized fuzzy lap dog).

Question number 2 is why my friend doesnt breed very often (poodles) this is the expense I was refering too.

UMMM Beauford says "What do you mean??? I'm not and overstuffed lap dog??? Is this what mom has been trying to tell me all this time??? " :oops:

Sorry, I think I came off meaner than I should have because I am in the middle of dealing with Kuzco's medical issues.
I just get so frusterated. :oops:

Because it doesn't matter what their bloodlines are... they are my babies now.
And you don't love one of your babies less because they are sickly or special needs.
I think it's important for people to understand that purebred dogs have specific medical issues. Bred into them the same ways all that "Breed Standard" stuff is. (That's why it is more expensive to get health insurance for a "purebred" dog)
Northern Ontario is not what I would consider the purebreed capital of Canada. Does that make any of my friends or family's dogs less loved or important? No.
On the other hand it makes them less aware of what to watch for health wise.
I bought Maisey after I put my GSD X down because her hips at 14 were so bad, she soiled herself with the effort of standing up.
Maisey came with a guarantee on hips ( I used to think this was important) bacause I vowed to never go through that again.
I have since decided that guarantees only protect your pocket, not your heart. (my opinion)And that research is the MOST important thing you can do for your future pet.
If you want to know where I got Maisey, pm me...I don't want to open any cans of worms publicly. Would I buy my next dog there??? Uh-uh.
I also mean no disrespect to yourself or your friend.
I am sincerely glad to hear about the hip checks...
I honestly appologize if I offended anyone...
Maybe I shoulda asked Ron to edit too... :oops:

I dont think you said anything wrong. Everyone has opinions. I too believe you can buy a quality OES, that meets standards, without it being from Champion stock. I sometimes believe that money comes into play in that instance too. My dog is better than yours type money. When really a quality pet is a quality pet. So I know where you are coming from. We had health issues from our "champion bred" oes that I have yet to have with Beau. So its all a matter of opinion. There are good quality breeders out there that do not show. But there a lot more sucky breeders that are only in it for the money than there are ones that care.

Quote:

Sorry, I think I came off meaner than I should have because I am in the middle of dealing with Kuzco's medical issues.
I just get so frusterated.

Ooooh. It is terribly frustrating... we've spent thousands on Panda and it didn't even address her hips (hasn't yet been needed). Anyone who loves dogs can understand where you're coming from. Live with a dog that has to live with or died from the results of ignorant or careless breeding and you feel the same way.

6Girls wrote:

Quote:

Sorry, I think I came off meaner than I should have because I am in the middle of dealing with Kuzco's medical issues.
I just get so frusterated.

When I think of the things Shast went through brings tears to my eyes. And to think she has brothers and sisters with the same problems.

Truth be told EVERYTIME I think of Kuzco's medical bills (We have insurance now, but they won't insure any ear or skin problems because of his condition when we got him) And we pay 100% up front, then they reimburse us 80%.
Yeah, enough about us...
EVERYTIME I think about it, I check myself by thinking about Jaci.
I DO want to breed one day... but Maisey was my first OES, and then I was looking for my "champ sire" and read about Kuzco on this site.
Things happen for a reason, I was looking for a boy dog, and there was one in the rescue section...
I figured it was fate.
Can I add to the list?
7.)All responsible breeders SHOULD rescue.
I think maybe when my girls (4 yrs old this week) are older I may rescue more.

Maybe I don't want to breed at all. :roll:

Maybe I'm being called in a different direction, who knows.
Champion Breeders are cool. People that rescue, are my heroes.

I am the one who wrote as a guest about the three kinds of breeders of oes. When I wrote my opinion and was ready to post it I forgot my password(lol) and was lazy and just posted under guest status.

I was not clear about the rescue groups being a source of byb and mill puppies,. What I meant was the puppies or dogs that rescue handles and places were PRODUCED by breeders of greed(MILLS) and breeders of Ignorance(BYB) . I in know way meant that rescue breeds these dogs . I really think that resuce groups are the one's who pick up the pieces after a whole string of bad and predictable circumstacesthats have occured which are rooted in greed ,ignorance ,impulse(from orig purchasers) and sometimes abuse .

Thank you
Jason

cheyennebuford wrote:

It is quite true two dogs who are not champions can breed a champion and they can produce very nice pups if the breeder knows what they are looking for. Please explain to me what a quality OES that meets standards is, I'm sure a lot of breeders would be interested to know. The standard is laid out to protect the breed but it can be interperated in many different ways.

In my opinion and I am sure a lot of breeders will back me up with this there is no such thing as a good breeder who does not show, then how do they know the quality of their dogs if they don't show them and compete with other breeders, how do they pick a stud dog if they do not go to shows and look for good breeding stock.

Of coarse a pup from a reputable breeder cost more then there are very high costs involed in breeding, those top breeders earned their name through showing and using good stock, and most of them are not in it for the money. Of coarse a litter from a good combination can have illnesses and no top breeder can prevent this happening occasionally even though they research and consider the stud dogs ery carefully.

Unfortunately you do not say who the sucky breeders who are in it for the money are and this again in my opinion is an insult to all reputable breeders the world over.

Wow, this is a real can of worms...
I meant absolutly no disrespect to breeders who show.
Or people who rescue.
Both teams are really working for the love of the dogs.
I think there is a bit of self righteousness on both sides of this argument, and I personally believe both have valid points.
Really are we gonna settle this one?
Probably not.
As long as everyone realizes each other's necessity and good points, we are just arguing semantics anyway...
But who am I to stifle a good argument...let's have at it, I say....

Quote:

In my opinion and I am sure a lot of breeders will back me up with this there is no such thing as a good breeder who does not show, then how do they know the quality of their dogs if they don't show them and compete with other breeders, how do they pick a stud dog if they do not go to shows and look for good breeding stock.

I understand your opinion, but here is my perspective when I bought my first OES:

I was looking for a wonderful, healthy pet with an excellent temperment. Because of some slight allergies to dogs (with the potential for serious problems that we wanted to avoid) my husband felt very strongly that we had a better chance of avoiding allergy problems if we started with a known pure bred dog. My reading at the time (16 + years ago--no internet access for me) suggested that an OES would be a good choice on all counts: a larger, strong dog (I had 4 children, including 3 boys. I did not want something that might get stepped on and hurt in the normal course of our day to day life. My kids were well behaved, but they were kids and there was a lot of running about), good with kids, and low allergic potential. An OES was on our short list and since the dog was a gift to me, the one I chose as most appealing. I have always believed we chose correctly for our family. I knew I wasn't planning to breed or show (although I admit that I briefly considered both after getting to know Merlin better). I knew I wanted a healthy, sound dog with an excellent temperment.

Merlin's breeder was a farmer who raised OES with her kids, who showed them in 4 H events. Dam came from champion blood lines on both sides; sire was a champion. She had a litter every few years and raised the pups with the kids: an ideal set up for me, who had young children at the time. I knew that the puppies would be accustomed to being around and handled by children. The dam was on site: she greeted us calmly at our car and walked happily with us to the house. She was friendly but calm and confident with all of our family members, from husband to teenaged son to younger boys to our 4 year old daughter. I had already had a few conversations with the breeder and knew that she searched long and hard for the right sire. Both parents were health tested and certified. For my purposes, I felt that I was as certain as I could be that I was getting a healthy puppy who would have a good temperment.

I confess that I was somewhat ignorant of some of the issues about breedng. I knew I wasn't buying from a mill or a pet store. My "back yard breeder" was obviously knowledgeable about the breed, and took care to have healthy, well socialized dogs. Between the farm and the kids, I understood why she didn't show and to me, at the time, showing was rather 'snobby.' I don't mean to offend: I've already confessed a certain amount of ignorance.

To tell the truth, I don't know that I could have done better in terms of temperment and health than I did when I got Merlin. I understand why some would disapprove, but I think what I did was as ethical as I could have done at the time. It took me a while to find a breeder, but I don't think I could have done better had I been as informed and aware then as I am now.

Unfortunately, when we were ready to get another OES, she no longer was around, so I looked elsewhere. Archie came from an obvious back yard breeder who really had no business breeding anything and certainly not OES. I educated her about a number of issues regarding OES, and pointed her to some reading (again little or no internet access for me in those days and maybe none for this farm family). If I had had even the tiniest interest in breeding from my new puppy, I would have run away fast. But I was looking for a pet and both parents were on site and were calm, well socialized dogs with absolutely lovely personalities. Some champs on each side, but neither parent came from a champ sire or dam. The father was matted beyond belief. I wanted to take him home with me so I could get him looking decent. Mother had been shaved down 'because it was easier when she whelped.' To be honest, I looked at Archie's purchase as a rescue, and prayed that woman would decide OES were too much trouble to breed. I plead absolute ignorance as far as the issue of byb and OES.

Sherman and Sophie were from a back yard breeder. I almost walked away--and should have. Sherman is terrific; Sophie has issues. I had just found this forum and because of a complicated set of circumstances, felt it was important to find puppies on a shorter time frame than was strictly wise. I hadn't gotten a return phone call or email from my requests for breeders. I plunged ahead and while I don't regret Sophie or Sherman, I do regret patronizing breeders who I felt were slipshod in their ethics. I won't do this again.

Looking back over the years the first breeders of any kind of sheepdog were more than likely drovers or farmers although they bred for a different reason. it was in their interest to have healthy dogs with good movement and a good temperament to work with all kinds of livestock.

These people were not interested in length or volume of coat as it was normally clipped anyway, the dogs were normally the center point of the farm and everything revolved around the dog, it was expected to work hard with long hours and covering many miles, I would say a farmer who works with his dog knows the animal better than any breeder knows their breeding stock today.

It is true we have illnesses in the breed today but not all illnesses are inbred some are like human illnesses caused by stress, the environment etc, most breeders do try their best to breed healthy and happy dogs but it doesn't always end up as they expected and fact is mistakes do happen. If you do not try a combination you will never know how it would have developed.

Quote:

Merlin's breeder was a farmer who raised OES with her kids, who showed them in 4 H events. Dam came from champion blood lines on both sides; sire was a champion. She had a litter every few years and raised the pups with the kids: an ideal set up for me, who had young children at the time. I had already had a few conversations with the breeder and knew that she searched long and hard for the right sire. Both parents were health tested and certified. For my purposes, I felt that I was as certain as I could be that I was getting a healthy puppy who would have a good temperment.

I don't have a problem with this breeder. Showing would be nice, but there are forum members who are breeding, and applauded, without both parents being champions. At least the sire is a champion, and that is quite common with breeders.
The health tests are done, and the dogs raised in a family setting...hey, I'd get one from them..!. In my opnion if more show breeders would have more "pet" litters the demand for pups would be easier filled by health-tested stock and the internet sales and pet stores sales would dry up...In a perfect world... :roll:

Bosley's mom wrote:

In my opnion if more show breeders would have more "pet" litters the demand for pups would be easier filled by health-tested stock and the internet sales and pet stores sales would dry up...In a perfect world... :roll:

Hey Nicole, can you elaborate on that thought a little more?

Of course, I will not get a dog from a puppy mill or a pet store. But frankly, I have been so turned off by the process of dealing with a so called "reputable breeder" that I will never look for a dog through them again. And of course, when all criteria *are* ideal with a reputable breeder (i.e., nice healthy puppies, champion lines, all health certificates, breeder is actually a pleasant and patient person rather than a snob conducting an inquisition) the dog is likely to be priced way beyond my means. The last time I considered getting a dog from a reputable breeder, he wanted $2500 for a St. Bernard pup -- didn't happen. This is a "boutique" approach, and it is such an elitist thing.

I have no qualms about getting a dog from a rescue (we've had 2 rescues over the years), or a puppy from a BYB that is patient and pleasant, allows visits, is well informed, shows care for his animals, is not secretive about his background, and answers questions forthrightly. Whether or not the breeder shows is extremely insignificant for me, I just need to feel good about the person I am getting the animal from.

It seems like the term BYB was designed by the show-dog breeders as a put down, and to marginalize anyone who breeds dogs that don't measure up to their little furry champions.

Quote:

most breeders do try their best to breed healthy and happy dogs but it doesn't always end up as they expected and fact is mistakes do happen.

I think this should read "breeders striving for healthy dogs with good temperaments". In the USA, there are too many BYBs that never test for hips, elbows, eyes, thyroid, etc. or have the results substantiated by OFA. It's not necessarily that they don't love the breed but their ignorance or disregard for preventative breeding is obvious. All you have to do is look at the ads-

A deaf pup for $500 and for $300 you can get full registration. (Go to Puppyfind- OES in Minnesota and look for "Snowbal" or "Deaf".)

Because of Panda (my rescue with bad hips, allergies, urinary ph problem, struvite crystals, surgically corrected bladder defect, tail docked improperly), in good conscience I can never again purchase a pup who's parents hips are anything less that OFA good or excellent... and I want to know if the parents have allergies. Anything less goes against everything Panda has had to suffer through. I can't support a breeder that is not doing everything they can to create sound dogs or I too am helping to continue the suffering.

Quote:

Can I add to the list?
7.)All responsible breeders SHOULD rescue.

Maybe all breeders should first have to rescue so they will know the importance of what they need to prevent. (They need to keep disease and illness away when breeding.)

Quote:

I have no qualms about getting a dog from a rescue (we've had 2 rescues over the years), or a puppy from a BYB that is patient and pleasant, allows visits, is well informed, shows care for his animals, is not secretive about his background, and answers questions forthrightly. Whether or not the breeder shows is extremely insignificant for me, I just need to feel good about the person I am getting the animal from.

I used to feel this way... it's not that all BYBs are horrible people. Many are some of the nicest people you'll meet... they're simply ignorant, choose to take their chances on future pups created (of course they themselves won't be the ones suffering with a genetic health condition), and/or don't want to spend the money to test their dogs for health conditions that affect the breed. My BYB was extremely supportive, informative and kind and took a more natural approach to health... yet 2 of my 3 dogs from her have autoimmune conditions like low thyroid and allergies... my 3rd is Kaytee (cleft palate, severe eye problems... who has a littermate with a narrow trachea and enlarged heart). And then we have Panda. Could any of this have been prevented with pretesting?

Unfortunately there will always be BYBs who are not at a minimum testing their breeding dogs for known health problems... they take the approach "let the results tell us if we have problems". But these "results" are actually pups that can suffer due to this foolish approach.

So responsible dog owners that have lived with BYB or mill dogs with health problems either find a breeder who is responsible (I'll go with OESCA... not for the championships but because I know tests have been done to help make a sound pup) or I'll again turn to rescue. The money saved by going through rescue can be put toward any possible health problems that might present themselves if the dog is from a BYB or mill.

Just my personal views...

FYI-
As someone has posted on the forum before, these links will help you to determine the OFA ratings and CERF ratings if you know at least part of the dogs registered name-

OFA Ratings- http://offa.org/search.html
CERF (Eyes)- http://www.vmdb.org/verify.html

Maxmm wrote:

Bosley's mom wrote:

Hey Nicole, can you elaborate on that thought a little more?

Sure! Most people turn to pet stores or BYB because the pups are available NOW. Let's say I decide that I want a puppy my next time round. If my two dogs suddenly died tomorrow, I would not be wanting to go on a waiting list for a show breeder's pup that is planning a litter 8 months down the road. I would want one now. If I were uneducated I would go on Kijiji or the local BYB or pet store and get myself a pup. But, if I heard that a great breeder, who shows and tests their breeding dogs, always had puppies available, I would definitely go and pick one up (provided I was approved). Or if that same breeder was advertising pups on Kijiji or whatver, it would be quite obvious where I would go to.

Until good breeders start to loosen up a bit and have more quality pups available as the public demands then to be, we will continue to force folks to go to get a puppy where they can get one...NOW....from the BYB's and pet stores, that produce low-quality dogs. It is fine for good breeders to spout the merits of buying a quality pup, but to then tell Joe Public that they have to wait months for one....well, some people will, but most won't. And then the cycle continues.

But put them out there, and I think most people are smart enough to at least make the right choice, given that choice does not include waiting for months. If the market was saturated with healthy pups, from health-tested show homes, then the internet and pet store sales would not be able to compete, because the product is higher quality, with minimal price difference, if any.

Bosley's mom wrote:

Until good breeders start to loosen up a bit and have more quality pups available as the public demands then to be, we will continue to force folks to go to get a puppy where they can get one...NOW....from the BYB's and pet stores, that produce low-quality dogs. It is fine for good breeders to spout the merits of buying a quality pup, but to then tell Joe Public that they have to wait months for one....well, some people will, but most won't. And then the cycle continues.

You cut straight to the core of the problem and you're not the first person to suggest this, and in truth in an ideal world reputable breeders breeding more litters, rather than less (which is the trend) would absolutely be the answer to the problem. There's only one catch: we can't do it and remain responsible breeders. Or at least most of us cannot.

Think about it. So if we start churning out puppies just because the sire and dam have health, temperament and structural merit, how do we stand behind that many puppies responsibly? We have to stay in touch with all of their owners for the life of the dog. That could be a lot of owners! I'd need a social secretary or something. I barely have time to balance my checkbook and play with my own dogs as it is!

As for an earlier posters dislike of the spanish inquisition style screening, yes, you are correct, but we do that on behalf of rescue dogs as well: you can't just show up, check in hand, and expect me to hand you a puppy or a foster dog. It doesn't work that way. I have to be able to sleep at night and how can I do that if I don't know you from Adam or I do, and I don't think you're the right home for a specific puppy or rescue?. How do we stand prepared to take (potentially) that many puppies back? Having lessened our requirements for what constitutes a good bet as a home PLUS increased the volume?

It can't be done. At least not by the (decreasing - ask Mandy :wink:

) number of reputable breeders in existence.

The public demands ever more responsibilty of breeders. Not saying the demands are wrong - I'm perfectly comfortable that the careful screening and limited breeding are the right thing to do. But - and this is more to previous posters than in response to Nicole: you can't have it both ways. So for people who have to have their puppy here and now, no or few questions asked, a reputable breeder is probably not for them and you just hope there are some decent BYBs out there (frankly they are too few and too far between to justify people's faith in those magical high quality non-show breeders so many seem to think they got a dog from, but there are a handful.) That isn't going to change any time soon.

Here's the thing though: if you take the time to develop a relationship with a decent breeder, you don't wait months or years for a puppy. Once you've jumped through those hoops (proven that you're a responsible human being with a clue - or at least one who has the propensity to listen till you get one of your own :wink:

), you're on almost any reputable breeders "preferred" list for life. How do I know this? That's how I ended up with the dogs I have.

And yet I still can't send an unknown quantity to a breeder, even a breeder I know well, and expect them to sell them a puppy just on my say so. But if I wanted one for myself, I could get one tomorrow. OK, I might have to wait a few weeks. Why? Because they know me. That wasn't always the case. I got to know a number of them.

And don't be so sure, again, a general response, not necessarily in response to Nicole, that a reputable breeder wouldn't be thrilled to talk to you - how many actually contacted one before they ordered the puppy off the internet? They're like most people: some have better people skills than others, some are a better match for your personality. But one person who doesnt' fall over backwards trying to hand you a puppy the minute they pick up the phone isn't really enough of an excuse to whip out the credit card and order a puppy sight unseen. Thanks to the forum, you "know" people now and you can ask around. Actually, a lot of you do, and that's a good thing.

I'll tell you what bumps you to the top of the list of any breeder who puts a high priority on finding the right homes for their puppies:

1) experience with the breed (if you tell them you just lost your 14 year old OES they will collectively bend over backward to find you someone with a litter - I can almost guarantee it).

2) had an OES from another reputable breeder and she vouches for you, just doesn't have a litter planned herself

3) background in rescue = knows the breed (if OES rescue, but other rescue background also a plus) AND won't be an irresponsible owner

4) repeater - already had a puppy/dog from that breeder - straight to the top of the list

That may not be fair, but the fact is that it's easier to trust someone with a proven track record of some kind. If that sounds snooty, so be it. We're talking about living, breathing beings here. We'd like them to remain that way.

Kristine

What I think would be helpful would be to have more of the reputable breeders online and active that way. I would think most people (without any sort of 'in' knowledge) would start their research of trying to find a breeder online. When I was helping my parents, very few of the OESCA breeders in their area had websites or email addresses. My mom's a busy lady so she doesn't have time to call breeders all day long (not that it would take all that long, but you know what I mean). So emailing and websites are what she was attracted to. So, when those breeders with email/internet weren't having a litter, she googles OES and that starts the whole process of finding less than reputable breeders with cute and friendly websites.

Such valuable information. And I too, will claim ignorance in many areas of breeding.

After dealing with hip displasia with Oliver, I can honestly say that I will never again purchase a puppy from any breeder that is not reputable (OESCA approved). IMO $2500 is a small price to pay for the quality of dog you are getting. Medication, therapy, and surgery quickly add up to beyond that amount, not to mention my heart ache and Oliver's quality of life.

I don't care if the BYB is pleasant and patient-how does that confirm I am getting a healthy puppy?

I agree, many are ignorant. In fact, Oliver's breeder didn't even know a puppy could be tested to see if it was deaf. I should have seen the signs, I should have done more research, I should have waited longer to make sure I found a reputable breeder.

I love Oliver to death, and am very happy that we have him and can provide a good life for him. However, I too, choose to take a stand to end the suffering.

Sadly, I truely believe that as long as money can be made, BYB will continue selling puppies.

So, if you are new to the breed, or getting your first dog in your adulthood, how is it that you go about establishing that good relationship with a good breeder, assuming that one lives within any sort of driving distance from you? Mind you, I drove 4+ hrs one way for each of my dogs--and had a hard time locating a breeder at that close a distance. I know that reputable breeders do ship dogs, but I am not comfortable with that. And I also know that many disreputable breeders also ship dogs and puppies who do not fare so well in the travel.

tgir wrote:

With internet anything is possible :wink:

.
Sites such as this one, OESCA website, and rescue sites are all valuable tools.

tgir wrote:

It's hard if you live in an area w/o the kind of breeders you hope to get to meet, no question. You can still call one up, talk to that person and if it's someone you think you're inclined to like, see if he or she may be planning on showing in your area and offer to meet them to help to unload or maybe hold a dog ringside or whatever. You meet one breeder who, even if the two of you don't hit it off as well as you had hoped, may in turn introduce you to other breeders and so on. It's just networking, but it's generally a good learning experience as well.

Everybody can tell you a different story, I'm sure.

I went online looking for relief for my first OES' geriatric issues (arthritis), stumbled onto an OES e-mail list, stumbled into a chat room related to that list (IRC or something like that? it was a long time ago) which happened to be inhabited mainly by some friendly breeder/show type people. They started telling me about shows more local to me, the when and wheres. I'd show up if it was close, watch the dogs and never talk to anyone :lol:

After I lost my OES, I volunteered with my local OES rescue. At one point Madeline (head of NYS rescue) mentioned she'd be showing in Syracuse, 15 minutes from my house, so I went to watch her and just generally drive her nuts by being unable to keep my hands off of her dogs' ring-ready dos (she never said this, but really, knowing what I know now, she deserves a medal for patience :lol:

).

Kept talking to people in chat, a couple of show people in Wisconsin invited me and another pet person from PA who was also on chat (but chickened out) to drive out to the Wisconsin specialty (dog show). Emboldened by my experience with Madeline at the show ("oh! show people don't bite" - well, not most of them :wink:

) I did, I met Belle whom my new-found friends were going to be showing in conformation for her breeder once she was old enough - she was just short of six months old. Her breeder was judging sweeps so I got to baby sit (socialize) Belle, watch the show and meet a bunch of midwestern breeders. The rest is history.

It's just getting out there and talking to people. When Deborah was interested in adopting one of our rescues (Lizzie - whom, of course, she was fostering), I "knew" her from sheepiefest and from online and I knew people who knew her even better and so on, so it was a very short step to..."the dog is yours". It's not all that different with breeders. You don't have to go to shows. Though specialties tend to be a good place to meet breeders: there are usually luncheons afterwards and in addition to the concentration of show people/breeders, they also tend to hang out longer and be more social.

Even if you're not running into breeders, if you're out and about at sheepdog gatherings you may run into people whose OES you really like and you ask them how they feel about their dog's breeder and that may give you an idea of who you might want to contact - it cuts both ways, you get to be equally as picky about the breeder you want a dog from as they get to be about you.

Kristine

Which reminds me,

Upcoming midwestern specialties:

June 6 -Twin Cities Old English Sheepdog Club
Scott County Fairgrounds
7151 West 190th St
Jordan, MN

Sunny/Lucali and Dawn/Got Sheep should be there. Also obedience and rally on Friday with special prizes for OES

June 14 - Chicagoland Old English Sheepdog Club
The Lake County Fairgrounds
50 S Route 45
Grayslake, IL

Don't know if anyone I know from the forum is entering, but I believe I agreed to meet Wendy from IL there. :wink:

July 25 - Old English Sheepdog Club of Southeastern Wisconsin
Waukesha County Exposition Center
4-H Forum Building
1000 Northview Road
Waukesha, WI

A bunch of us will be there for sure - also obedience and rally that weekend.

August 22 - Western Reserve Old English Sheepdog Club
Moreland Hills, OH (near Cleveland)

http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... 202008.pdf

Sure there will also be forum members there.

Others will have to post Western and Eastern Specialties.

Will try to remember to post times once the judging schedules are released.

Kristine

tgir wrote:

(Kind of a general answer not directly aimed at the quoted poster.)

You have to make phone calls, send e-mails and network, just like you would to get a job. I've never had a show dog and never bred but some of my best friends are breeders, handlers and rescue people from out of state that I met on the internet that turned into friendships and volunteer opportunities.

If it's something you really care about, I don't think it's too much to ask to put a little bit of effort in or *gasp* wait a few months for a puppy! Instant gratification is great but when it comes to a companion that's going to be in your life for next 10+ years, who cares if you have a couple of months to wait? Also, a lot of the time, a reputable breeder can recommend other reputable breeders that may be having litters if they don't have one readily available. Sure, they want to sell their own puppies but, they love the breed, too, so they'll try to help you make a good decision. Sometimes you do have to do more homework and be willing to go the extra mile to get a good pup

But for my family, timing is important. We want to be able to spend a lot of time with a new puppy during a really relaxed time of the year for us. For us, that's been late spring/summer.

Of course if you have friends who are breeders or who show or who work in the pet care field, you can more easily find a good breeder for whatever type of animal you are looking for. But that's not most people. And it's not me.

Before we got Sophie and Sherman, we talked about it for several months, trying to decide if it was the right move for us. We had been through a difficult year, family wise and our lives were going to be changing even more. At first we thought we'd try rescue: my husband wasn't able to locate an OES rescue in our area on the internet--and he's a very internet-savvy person. I finally located this forum, registered, and we talked with the OES rescue in our state about a couple of different dogs. My husband in particular wanted to do rescue, but most of the available dogs were designated 'only dog' and we had Archie. Others were designated 'no small children.' Our children are college aged, but we live in the center of town, with a lot of foot traffic from all sorts of people: older folks, people walking their dogs, college kids, school kids. We hope that someday we'll have grandchildren: we felt we needed a dog who would be safe around kids. One dog we almost asked to adopt, but concerns over the 'no kids' made us wary. Sadly, his adoptive home had biting issues and he had to be put to sleep. Which broke my heart because maybe we would have been the right home for him--or maybe someone else would have been bitten. So, we began to explore puppies and I wasn't getting phone calls returned. Finally, I did get an email back, but it was after we found Sophie and Sherman. If I had been around this forum longer and knew that I could trust that I would indeed be contacted, I would have waited. But we were newbies here. I honestly had no idea if we'd ever hear back.

Were we too impatient? Maybe we were. If we had waited, we would have waited at least another year. We weren't looking for 'instant gratification' so much as we were looking to add to our family with timing that made sense to us, to our lives, and that would be in the best interest of the puppy.

Thing is, we are both well educated people who are not ignorant about rearing puppies.

WOW.

Is it hot in here, or is it just me?

Since it is such a sensitive and emotional set of issues, I'm really proud of everyone keeping their cool!

Just remember, everyone has opinions and they are entitled to them.
Not everyone is born an OES expert like me. :roll:

Nobody is perfect like me. :roll:

We are all dog lovers here, and we all want to do the right things.

...and we all agree to the oes.org mantras:

1) Assume the poster meant no insult.
2) Write your posts as if you are sitting at the kitchen table of a neighbor you don't know very well, sharing a cup of tea.

Nobody is every going to agree with anyone else on everything. How boring life would be! We'd all be clones, and you wouldn't want to be married to a perfect, expert and humble guy like me.

WOW.

Apparently the heat was all coming from Ron looking in the mirror.
:twisted:

Oiy!

I guess it is true, then...Doesn't matter what you know, but "who" you know.

I don't hang with the "show crowd" and most potential "pet" puppy buyers don't....
I hang with the "rescue crowd", where breeders are few and far between...LOL..so I won't find many breeders to chum up with there, either.
I don't belong to any dog clubs, so won't get a referral there, either.

I and many people like me are not interested in joining up with any club or following the show circuit. A show dog does not interest me in the least.

My criteria is a registered puppy raised in a non-smoking home environment, where the parents have been health-tested and cleared with good scores.
The breeder must rake me over the coals with questions, and insist on a hoem visit and vet reference.
The breeder must have in their contract that the pup must be altered (or better yet, do pediatric spays/neuters), and the breeder must insist on the right of first refusal if I can no longer keep the dog.
The breeder must have a good rapport with the local rescue group and be able to provide me with a good vet reference.

I cannot wait months for a puppy..I need a dog in my life at all times. If a puppy is not available under those circumstances, when I want one, I would move to another breed.

So if reputable breeders would produce more litters of pups that can go at 8 to 10 weeks old, then people less informed than me would not be tempted to go get a low quality dog, and then maybe think of breeding it themselves....and start that all over again.

We need more quality puppies out there, not less...so that people will buy them and not the millers.... No wonder the breed is going downhill. Those that are interested and able to change that downword spiral are not doing it...so cannot complain about the deterioration of the breed.

Saying people should wait for the right puppy and breeder is fine to say, and in theory would be great....but in most cases, it is not going to happen. When I say "most" cases I am talking about regular puppy buyers...not the OES obsessed people like the members of this forum... :wink:

.

And in case it might not come across that way, I am truely and absolutely thrilled that there are so many show people and breeders in this forums memberships.
Makes for some good, eye-opening discussions...!

I am sorry if I seemed upset: I am not. I made my decisions based upon the best information that I had at the time. I will live with my decision, including feeling bad about helping someone I know should not breed dogs continue to do just that. I am more concerned about what lies ahead for Sophie. So far the vet cannot find any medical cause for her issues, but issues remain...and so we are working on them.

Like Bosely's mom, I am more worried that people, with the very best of intentions and out of ignorance will go to less than reputable breeders. I did.

I truly do wish that there was a different path than either show or mill. I don't think that the answer is that all showing breeders turn out as many puppies as possible to satisfy demand. I do think that maybe some mentoring of people who are interested in breeding a litter or two might not be such a terrible thing.

People, please don't take this the wrong way but to say you don't hang out with "show" people so there is no way you can get connected with what others call "reputable" breeders or people who breed just is not true. Go to the breeder referral page on the OESCA website. Listed there by state are OESCA members who have had to meet an even stricter criteria than just "breeding according to the code of ethics of the national club". I know this for a fact because I was on the committee that worked on getting this breeder referral page onto the website so people looking for a good quality OES from a reputable breeder could do so via the internet. I get at least 5-7 calls or e-mails a week from people just as yourself, wanting a good quality companion. Reputable breeders are NOT going to breed a litter of "pets". We breed to better the breed, when we are ready for something to keep ourselves in order to continue our lines & as close to the standard (conformation, health & temperment) as possible. The reason our puppies are more (and the ones Cathy & I place are not $2500.00...they are quite a bit less) than the backyard breeders is because we spend a lot of money on OFA testing of hips & elbows, Cerf testing, breeding to a good quality & match of a stud dog, 10 weeks of feeding, raising & socializing the litter & 3 sets of puppy shots as well as a 1st bortadella inoculation etc. before you get your puppy . Yes we like to see as many of our dogs in show homes as possible but realistically we watch many of them be placed as companions just because show homes are not available. A good, sound, loving home is the most important thing to us for our puppies.

I am also a member of the Western Reserve Old English Sheepdog Club & if you want to see & meet several different OES & breeders, come to our specialty in August. We are having it on a Friday evening this year so maybe people who work during the day will be able to come, watch & learn about the breed & breeders. Don't be afraid to talk to breeders at a dog show....just remember to ask them when would be a good time to talk to them! Yes, I'd like the people who contact me to buy a puppy from us. But if I don't have puppies available & won't have them available in the not too distant future I'd rather direct you to another person I consider reputable that does have puppies rather than have you buy from someone who is in it for the $$$.

ChSheepdogs wrote:

I get at least 5-7 calls or e-mails a week from people just as yourself, wanting a good quality companion. Reputable breeders are NOT going to breed a litter of "pets". We breed to better the breed, when we are ready for something to keep ourselves in order to continue our lines & as close to the standard (conformation, health & temperment) as possible.

This is exactly the problem. I would not use that list, as I am in Canada, but from what I hear people call, and get no reply or they cannot find a breeder that is local where they can actually meet the dam and pups, and the breeder. If the local good breeders hardly ever have pups, then a purchaser is forced to go to the local low quality dogs...Unfortunately they are always available. I would never buy a pup from a breeder that I haven't physically met and seen where the dogs lived. I need to know who and what I am supporting with my money, so shipping is not an option for me.

If Club breeders were truely interested in improving the breed then they would be doing something to prevent the crappy puppies being sold out there. And the way to do that is to satisfy the market. Otherwise you are going to end up with an elite group of show OES's, and a small group at that, in amoungst the vast numbers of poor quality pups...We are almost there, now.
You and other club breeders cannot complain about all the millers and BYB's out there when you yourself are not interested in helping people get a healthy puppy. If you were then you would have healthy puppies available for people to buy. So this "reputable breeders only breed for themselves" mentality is not helping the breed at all.

ChSheepdogs wrote:

The reason our puppies are more ... than the backyard breeders is because we spend a lot of money on OFA testing of hips & elbows, Cerf testing, breeding to a good quality & match of a stud dog, 10 weeks of feeding, raising & socializing the litter & 3 sets of puppy shots as well as a 1st bortadella inoculation etc. before you get your puppy . A good, sound, loving home is the most important thing to us for our puppies.

I don't think anyone is disputing the costs. And people are willing to pay for all of that, but not to wait around until someone decides to have some puppies...months or years from now. If you want to preserve the breed, then make sound puppies available to good homes. If the most important thing is a good home...

ChSheepdogs wrote:

I am also a member of the Western Reserve Old English Sheepdog Club & if you want to see & meet several different OES & breeders, come to our specialty in August.

See point above...I and most people do not frequent the show circuit. :wink:

and don't feel that we should have to, to meet breeders who might have a puppy that I might want to purchase in a year or two from now. Not everyone is interested in spending a day at a dog show...for what? To get in the crowd so that you "know" someone? If not, does that mean that people like me don't qualify?

BTW, the last show I went to to meet OES breeders I was not given the time of day. And 3 of them were forum members...

I understand perfectly the reasons that good breeders keep their litters few and far between, and I respect them for that...immensely. But I need to make the point that it makes it very difficult for a well-intentioned buyer to get their hands on a good puppy and to support a good breeder's efforts...when they are so hard to come by...So the BYB's will continue to flourish.

I'm not sure why everyone is having such a hard time finding reputable breeders. You make a few phone calls and you talk to people. If one doesn't work, you call another. Like Marilyn said, she's glad to recommend another good breeder if she doesn't have pups for you and I know a lot of breeders are the same way. It may not always be the easiest process but sometimes you have to be diligent-- rescue can be the same way. You don't always get answers right away and there an be a lot of waiting for the right dog. It happens.

I should point out, I'm not out at shows every weekend mixing it up with breeders. The people that I met were from this forum. I just asked questions and was eager to learn more about the breed and they were all very happy to help. If you do OES rescue or are involved in some way, I think you're hard pressed NOT to talk to a reputable breeder at some point along the way or find someone else in rescue that is also showing. Going to a show one day is a small sacrifice to see a dog from a breeder. You wouldn't buy a car without test driving it first, would you? It's a big investment and not the time to get lazy.

I think it's a fine line to walk as well for a breeder. If you have a lot of litters, you get branded as a puppy mill (even if it isn't necessarily true), if you don't have enough you aren't "satisfying" the market. One thing we've always talked about on this forum is responsible breeding and part of that is having homes ready for puppies. It's kind of a catch 22 because if breeders line up owners, other people will have to wait for the next litter but if they don't go ahead and have homes ready to place them into, they may not be able to home the puppies in a timely fashion. That's not even taking into consideration the fact that their bitches and dogs can only be bred so many times, and just as important, there are only so many good matches available that will actually work to better the breed and keep the lines clean and disease free. Breeders would need an arsenal of dogs and a lot more time and expense to produce even more quality puppies. What the breed may need is more reputable breeders having occasional litters rather than a few breeders producing more litters.

I understand the thought behind it, but I don't think it's fair to expect reputable breeders to be responsible for crappy breeders-- they're already doing their part by producing quality dogs and many are involved in rescue, too. Even if there were more than enough puppies to go around, people would still go to BYBs because they aren't educated in the difference and aren't willing to go through the interview process of getting a good puppy with a good breeder. Unfortunately, there will always be ignorant people ready to breed and more ignorant people ready to buy.

Jill has made some very good points in her last post. If you want a quality dog, you have to put some effort into finding not only the dog but the breeder you feel comfortable with. Nobody (and I do mean nobody) can possibly ask more questions of a breeder than I did of Cathy when I was considering buying Isaac from her. When you mention you don't have an interest in hanging around at a dog show remember that some of those breeders there have traveled great distances to spend the day there & are more than happy to answer questions from the public. I wish I had a dime for every time I was asked "How much does he weigh?" & "How long did it take you to get him ready for this show" when we were at COBO Hall in March. I don't mind answering these questions...they are the start of more important questions interested people will ask. We spend a lot of time grooming at a dog show. So we aren't trying to be snobbish if we aren't talking to every person that walks by. I don't know you are interested in my dog or my breed if you don't speak up! If I absolutely can't carry on a conversation at that time I will tell you why & when to check back with me so you can ask any questions you want & you can then have a chance to touch, pet or go over my dogs.

We can't guarantee we will have puppies available on certain dates (birthdays, Christmas etc.) or "the 1st of June because school is out & the weather is best for housebreaking". Mother nature just doesn't care about those things Some years we have more puppies available than others mainly because we have more girls that have passed their health clearances & fall within the 2 year old to 6 year old window for breeding. And some years we have fewer because maybe 2 years ago all we had was a litter of 6 boys.

Just now finding this post. I havent been on in a while, just too much going on. but i would like to respond......

I don't breed litters to just be HAVING a litter. My litters are planned 5 years in advance... I am always thinking who is going to go to whom.... I breed for myself not for anyone else.

I will not be having a litter "just" to have a litter to satisfy someones want of having an OES as that is just an irresponsible breeder.
Did anyone see OPRAH and her show on Puppymills? The HSUS and PETA want to put ALL responsible breeders in the same sentence...

I had one man have his SECRETARY call me, to say he wanted a "white headed sheepdog with 1 eye patch, and one blue eye and one brown eye" and he was going to give this dog as a present to his girlfriend.

My reply: This isn't BurgerKing you dont' get it your way. Yes this may have been harsh but i could not believe the audacity of someone doing this.

I believe Amber on this list can attest as can other reputible breeders, that if we don't have a pup available we will definately refur someone that sounds a wonderful home on to other breeders that we know and trust. There are definately people in my area I wouldn't refer anyone to..... and yes they are OESCA members. I have my reasons. My pups don't go to JUST anybody...

I'm hoping to have another litter here in about 2 months, This will be the 2nd litter in 2 years. The previous litter with pups for sale was 6 years ago. And this will probably be MY last litter for another 3 or 4 years at that. As I wont be needing anything else for ME to show.....

The issue isn't whether or not good breeders will help interested people to find the right pup for them--and the right breeder.

The issue is that a lot of people don't really know how to go about finding such a breeder---but they will acquire an OES anyways.

It might be in the best interests of the breed if more people produced good quality puppies. How to go about that seems to be fuel for a great deal of debate.

Obviously my point is getting missed.

So the BYB's and mills continue to pour out the OES pups because the responsible breeders are not helping the situation.
They are keeping all the cards close to themselves, not willing to share, and then complain becasue the breed is going downhill.

And by only breeding for themselves...well THAT is being irresponsible. Who is then going to breed high quality puppies for normal Joe Public who just wants an OES puppy that is not being produced by parents with HP?

Personally I think that IS the responsibilty of a good breeder....having high quality puppies available so that people don't have to turn to the lower quality ones. A breeder who has a litter every 5 years is suppliing other breeders with dogs, and keeping themselves in stock, and maybe the odd puppy buyer. So where do the other folks go?

I don't know how else to say it, but I think I have beaten this one to death.... :wink:

I understand what you are saying. But please try to understand some things from the responsible breeder's standpoint. First, if they are lucky, responsible breeders break even when they breed & sell a litter. I know most of you don't believe that but it is true. And I am not factoring in what I spend on showing the dogs (sire and/or dam) to their CH. That is my hobby & hobbies cost money. Why in the world would we want to spend all our time producing puppies that we can't even make a dime of profit on? Secondly, responsible breeders do this to better the breed & not as a "job". I am not a salesman. I can't even sell a box of Girl Scout cookies. Almost all of your responsible breeders hold jobs to make a living. I do & my working allows me to continue my hobby. So therefore we can't house 20 bitches for breeding. Not enough time to give dogs individual attention. We have generally a 4-5 year window where we can breed each bitch. And we can't breed them every heat cycle. My bitches that Cathy & I own are bred , at the most, 3 times in their lifetime. If they are in a show home, co-owned with another person, usually we ask the owners to allow us to breed them only once. The reason? These dogs are their family companions first. Then let's take into consideration the bitches that pass all their clearances & for some medical reason never conceive or can't carry puppies to term. There ia a lot of money & time lost there. And do realize that there are an awful lot of people out there that are NOT willing to pay what we need to charge to break even! They can buy an OES 30 miles from me on an Amish farm with 6 toes on each foot (we won't even talk about the temperments) for $1100 LESS than we are asking to break even. Until you have bred litters & talked to the number of people we have over the years that approach us about about getting a puppy & helped out to rehome some of these OES that come from the BYB, please don't be so hard on us responsible breeders. My first responiblilty is to the breed.....bettering it & protecting it....not to produce more quality puppies for the public. Off my soap box now & off to my job.

There is one thing that I would like to put out there and that is that if you are a regular here on the forum then YOU DO KNOW SHOW PEOPLE! You don't have to haul yourself off to a show, we're right here. (But for those of you who would like to come to a show I LOVE people to unload my stuff for me! :kiss:

)
I have had several people here ask me to help them find good people with a litter and have busted my butt making phone calls and doing prep work for them to get a pup because I have interacted with them and feel they are good people. (I have met most of them in person, also.) Heck, I even said I'd be Jill's sponsor to get into the OESCA and she'd better not get me kicked out!

I know that I do not have the time, or the dogs, to do a ton of breeding. I have one tiny girl that probably couldn't even hold enough puppies for me to break even on a litter. So there is no way that I could be producing a lot of dogs and I would have to be very picky in who gets the dogs I would produce.
Now, the bigger kennels have more litters but they are very busy with their dogs so that's one reason they don't answer phone calls and emails. Although, it can be done! If you have someone who's caller id that they recognize to refer you it is much easier!

Ok, I think I hear breeders saying that they breed as many litters as they feel comfortable breeding/can afford to breed, as it is not a profit generating business, but an (expensive) hobby that involves devotion to their dogs as individuals, the breed itself, any animals they produce, future owners, and of course, good ethics. I absolutely believe this to be true and respect the dedication --and time and expense such an undertaking requires.

I hear (some ) forum members saying that of course it is easy to find a breeder: if you are a member here, you already do know (several) reputable breeders.

And I hear Bosley'sMom (and my voice joins her) saying that is all well and good--except sometimes it isn't possible to find a breeder with a litter of pups when you are ready to have a puppy, especially if you want to be able to meet the breeder and dam and litter in person.

I am not worried about people who find their way to this forum BEFORE they purchase an OES puppy. I feel pretty confident that members here do a good job of educating and directing prospective puppy buyers to the right people.

But look around the forum: how often do we get new members (or guests) who seem to find us AFTER they've already gotten a puppy. And maybe are having some issues. And we all know that too many OES end up in rescue because of health problems from bad breeders and families who aren't prepared to deal with these (expensive) health problems or because people acquire the puppies without realizing the commitment or size or energy or maintenance required. These are the people who need to find (more easily) good quality puppies that might never take a championship but who would be a wonderful pet.

Least you think that 'those people' deserve what they get, ponder this: the puppies do not.

So, what should be done to provide an alternative to people who can't or won't wait for a puppy from the reputable breeders to become available? They won't all wait . We all see that. Some of us have been that.

tgir wrote:

And we all know that too many OES end up in rescue because of health problems from bad breeders and families who aren't prepared to deal with these (expensive) health problems or because people acquire the puppies without realizing the commitment or size or energy or maintenance required.

I am fully convinced of the noble and humanitarian spirit in arguments such as the one above, but this line of reasoning maybe faulty. Breed preservation and the dog population in pounds/rescues are different issues.

Sure, some OES will fall through the cracks and end up in rescues, but the pet overpopulation problem needs to be addressed as a public health/humanitarian/quality of life issue, and not in a breed-specific or as if it were a mere breed preservation effort. To save only OES while letting other dogs suffer seems ethically problematic to me.

Here in California, the pet overpopulatiion problem is huge, but I doubt that it affects the OES breed as much as it does other breeds and mixes. Before getting my current OES pup, I monitored Northern California and Western Nevada shelters and rescues offerings for nearly six months, and not a single suitable OES candidate emerged. I also called breed specific rescues and left messages indicating my interest in adopting a young adult, and only got one call back that didn't lead to much.

So maybe there is actually a shortage of OES pups in the West, and the breed tends to create or attract more devoted owners that don't give up their dogs as easily. To reduce pet overpopulation, we need spay and neuter campaigns, as well as public education and conscientization -- in the same way that people came to understand global warming these days. But to tell pet owners that want a specific breed that they can only get the animal from an elite, "boutique" breeder ain't gonna work -- it already isn't.

Hmm, I guess I lucked out then. The first person we almost bought from was a BYB. We nixed that in the nick of time from information we found on this web site (had not a clue how to look for a dog). We got our deposit back and I emailed a few people on the official list. One person got back to me, that didn't work out as she only had one puppy left that someone else took. She referred me to another lady on the list who did have puppy's a week old. We did drive six hours both ways first to look at Edgar and then to pick him up when he was old enough.

I do understand all the issues brought up here. I'm not sure that there really is a good answer to everything. Obviously where a lot of people go wrong is not knowing what to look for. That is what almost got us. And know when I hear other people talking about buying dogs I cringe because they aren't informed and see nothing wrong from buying a BYB dog. Boy how my views have changed since reading this web site. As for our new dog Emma, we were looking for a rescue so it didn't matter. And i think you can tell she isn't as nice a quality in body shape. She has fat ears for one thing.....lol :twisted:

I think maybe the biggest stumbling block I run across when people call me about getting a puppy is they want it right now & they don't want to wait. I can truely understand not wanting to be without a dog. A lot of people just can't believe that we don't have a supply of puppies on hand. Also, the idea that they need the dog for a birthday gift, or in June when school is out because it is easier to housetrain it when everyone is home for the summer & they don't want to stand out in the rains of spring with the pup. I wish these people would think back on when they had their own children. How many of us were able to plan that around when it suited us best? I do feel bad telling people that have called me this week that we bred one of our girls last week (the last week of April), if the breeding takes puppies should be born sometime around June 28th & ready to go to homes at the end of the 1st week in September. That sounds like such a long time. But that is how long it takes & we can't rush nature. If I know of anyone I consider reputable with puppies, I pass on the information rather than have the people buy from a BYB. I encourage people who call to place their name on our puppy list if interested. Doing so doesn't obligate them to buying from us but if we don't have anything at the time & other reputable breeders don't either, at least we have their name to call when we do have a litter. I think we need to educate people looking for a puppy to start the search early. Most people don't decide Monday to buy a new car & then go out Tuesday & get it. Why would they want to do that with a living being that they are making a 12-15 year commitment to?

I wish I knew back when I got my first 3 babies, what I know now. I love them to pieces and could not imagine my life without them. BUT, I have learned so much on this forum, I wished I would have found it before I got them. Mine, thank god, have no health problems, good temperement, but they do not measure up to breed standard. I understand breeding for the bettterment of the breed now. We show Elliott, he is not the best dog, but not the worst either, but he has made a good practice dog. What we have learned about the breed at the shows has been invaluable to us, most of the people really are wonderful and will answer your questions, no matter how dumb they may sound, right Mandy? God knows I have asked her enough :lol:

Dog shows are anything but boring, you may even get bitten by the show bug as Rick & I did. I have been looking and asking questions for another pup since last fall ,I just found out yesterday that a pup will be reserved for me out of a July litter. Was it worth the wait? you betcha :!:

I know this pup has a bigger chance of starting out healthy and good temperement vs. byb. So do your homework and save your money it will be worth the wait :!:

My grandma always told me,"Good things come to those that wait".

Cadenza wrote:

Sure, some OES will fall through the cracks and end up in rescues, but the pet overpopulation problem needs to be addressed as a public health/humanitarian/quality of life issue, and not in a breed-specific or as if it were a mere breed preservation effort. To save only OES while letting other dogs suffer seems ethically problematic to me.

Which leaves you with the option of adopting a nice shaggy mix out of some shelter. Absolutely nothing preventing you from doing that. I have a number of friends who are involved in allbreed rescues, and others who choose breed rescues because they feel their experience with a certain breed makes their contributions most useful in that area. A number of OES breed rescues will take in shaggy mixes as I'm sure you noticed and place them too. Frankly, there are many, many great mixes, if that's where your heart is.

Cadenza wrote:

Here in California, the pet overpopulatiion problem is huge, but I doubt that it affects the OES breed as much as it does other breeds and mixes.

I doubt you have a pet overpopulation problem so much as a PeTA overpopulation problem :wink:

, or you wouldn't be importing 10,000 Mexican bred puppies annually into San Diego alone. And that doesn't count the Meximutts some CA allbreed rescue groups are importing.

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/CustomsToday/2006 ... uppies.xml

Cadenza wrote:

But to tell pet owners that want a specific breed that they can only get the animal from an elite, "boutique" breeder ain't gonna work -- it already isn't.

Actually, there's nothing to stop you from getting an OES from any ole source you want. What has been said is: this is what a reputable breeder is, this is how you find one. We will help put you in touch with some reputable breeders if that's what you want. How someone proceeds from there is up to them.

Kristine

tgir wrote:

I am not worried about people who find their way to this forum BEFORE they purchase an OES puppy. I feel pretty confident that members here do a good job of educating and directing prospective puppy buyers to the right people.

oes.org is the first link that comes up if you type Old English Sheepdog into Google. Ultimately, if you did one iota of internet research before buying a puppy, it would be nearly impossible NOT to find us. The second link is OESCA. If people aren't doing any research, it's pretty hard to educate them beforehand. It's there, but they have to read it.

You members have done a lot of great work to get oes.org to come up first in the listings.

I just wanted to pipe in that our local Buddy Dog Humane Society also has a shortage of dogs, and imports strays from Puerto Rico to <strike>sell</strike> adopt out. They say it is for humanitarian reasons, but it's really a way of raising funds to keep their doors open. In the end, I guess that's a humanitarian reason.

Think it's not a big deal? They have saved 1500 dogs from Puerto Rico, in just 5 or 6 years.

Quote:

Fortunately and quite remarkably, the New England area has seen a decrease in local strays and unwanted litters. This can be credited to education and a successful movement towards spaying and neutering all pets.

http://www.buddydoghs.com/html/saveasato.html

Yeah, and don't forget all of the work by great organizations like NEOESR and Yankee Golden Retriever Rescue, two of the premier breed rescue organizations in the country.

I don't understand how a reputable breeder can be irresponsible for not keeping up with supply and demand. A reputable breeder is there for the life of the dogs she breeds. I have a female who had to be placed and has been in 3 homes before mine. She has a strong/difficult personality and took 3 1/2 years until she was in a home that the dynamics worked for her. It was the breeder who contacted me and asked if I could take her. Thankfully, this will be her forever home. She is noisy and bossy and it is just her personality. I am sure she will never be calm, but she still deserves love like all dogs. I am glad I was there for her, and that her breeder was there for more than just breeding and showing. Being there for the lives of the dogs you cause to come into this world is the true mark of a reputable breeder.

From the perspective of someone who isn't a breeder and doesn't expect to become one, I see a dilemma for all of those who love OES as follows:

1. We all want OES to be bred by people who know what they are doing: who know, understand and love the OES breed, who have the highest possible standards for producing the healthiest, best tempered puppies possible. I think I am correct when I say that every breeder connected with this forum believes an important component of producing excellent OES is showing the dogs to their championship before breeding them.

2. We all know that there are a LOT of puppy mills, indiscriminant breeders who are hoping to turn a quick buck by churning out as many puppies as possible--OES and other breeds. In addition, there are the hobby breeders: back yard breeders who do it for 'fun'. They may or may not know what they should about their sire and dams' pedigrees and what constitutes a good OES and how to get one.

3. Probably no one, no matter how ill informed, deliberately buys a puppy that they believe might not be healthy and have a good temperment. Many buy what they can easily find--which often means from pet stores and byb. Most people are not going to be willing to wait for a year or two or 3 to find their puppy. They will take what they can get when they want one.

Given that the breeders who adhere to the highest standards limit their litters to a 2 or 3 for the lifetime of a dam, and only produce a litter every year or two (so, what? maybe 8 puppies available for other owners), and given that most have their most of their prospective puppies spoken for before the litter even arrives, that leaves a very, very limited number of puppies available for people who are looking to buy from the best.

So, where does everybody else go? To the pet stores and bybs and the person down the street or their cousin's neighbor, etc. Which is something that good breeders and those involved in rescue know is a bad idea. But so far, I haven't seen any proposed solutions to this situation. We can say that only people who are willing to wait years and spend a couple of thousand dollars deserve to own an OES, everybody else be hanged. Works out good for the breeders: they rarely have to worry about not finding a good home for their puppies. Works out good for those who are fortuante enough to be able to ignore price and time. Maybe the less fortunate or less patient don't deserve better.

What about the other puppies? How can we help ensure that they will get off to the best possible start?

Bosley's mom wrote:

I have read the posts on this subject and, at the risk of embarassing myself, I must admit that i wouldn't know a show OES if I fell on her/him. I've never been interested in showing or breeding but only for the love of the breed and a wonderful pet. I have to say though, I was very fortunate to get Patch, she is such a nice dog with, knock on wood, NO health problems. I was told later that she was bred as a show dog something i would have never known. Last year I fostered a sheepie for 4 mos that was in horrible shape. But after a good grooming, all sores healed and some tlc she was the best dog - she went to a wonderful family who just loves her. But, as far as I am concerned, rescue is the only way to go. Kudos to you all for taking in these badly treated and wounded dogs and giving them a wonderful new start in life.

tgir wrote:

We can say that only people who are willing to wait years and spend a couple of thousand dollars deserve to own an OES, everybody else be hanged. Works out good for the breeders: they rarely have to worry about not finding a good home for their puppies. Works out good for those who are fortuante enough to be able to ignore price and time. Maybe the less fortunate or less patient don't deserve better.

I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but it may surprise you to know that OES puppies from reputable breeders don't necessarily go for $2000+. They should, actually, if we were trying to come close to breaking even. But at least here in the midwest, with one exception I know of, they don't.

Furthermore, Dawn (Got Sheep), as an example, didn't wait years. She planned to show up at an OES specialty wanting to talk to some breeders. She happened to run into a friend of mine with her OES, mentioned she was interested in a puppy, and my friend introduced us. If I didn't happen to have a litter at the time and she hadn't expressed an interest in looking into the litter, my friend and/or I would have personally and very happily escorted her over to the show ring and introduced her to a bunch of other breeders. I had some health testing left to do on the litter, so, yes, she had to wait a while longer, but we are talking weeks, not years.

Translation: she did her home work. I could be wrong but I don't think she was too traumatized by her efforts. If she didn't want to go to a show, or didn't know where to find one, she could have gone to the OESCA web site, found the breeder referral section and started dialing instead.

Yes there are lots of people who don't know any better. Who don't know how to find these elusive show breeders. I understand that. But thanks to the forum, now you do. I really do think that for some it comes down to wanting a simple exchange: I give you $$$s, you give me puppy, no/few questions asked and stay out of my life. I.e. we want breeders to be responsible, but those rules shouldn't apply to us. What if we can't stand up to scrutiny? What if the person doesn't <gasp> think an OES is right for me? Or does, but still makes me listen to endless lectures about how to take care of the breed, and about their behavioral quirks and their grooming requirements and so on?

For the people who don't want to jump through those apparently overwhelming hoops or find us snooty show breeders insufferable on principle :wink:

, you have the better quality backyard breeders. They health test at least. Thanks to the forum, you now know what health testing to expect. Still, many people seem not to believe that this testing is important if they're not getting a puppy from a "show breeder". Are those dogs the only ones expected to be healthy? Don't you deserve a decent shot at a healthy puppy? Why wouldn't you expect that? If you demanded proof of health testing, the BYB market would reflect that.

The point isn't to feel sorry for the puppies being churned out in less than desirable conditions with little thought to their future health or their parents' wellbeing. You're not "saving them" by buying them and giving them a home. You're telling the breeder there's a market, so make more. If you genuinely want to save a dog, please contact a rescue organization.

Kristine

All I can say is "THANK YOU KRISTINE" for this last post! You said it all!

BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO KRISTINE!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess from a snooty show breeder........
but at least my kids have all their health testing.

I am sorry that you are misunderstanding me.

Please see this thread for some of my concerns:

http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=17 ... c&start=15

tgir wrote:

I am sorry that you are misunderstanding me.

Please see this thread for some of my concerns:

http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=17 ... c&start=15

I think I do understand. I also understand where you're coming from, but that the argument you're trying to make doesn't hold up upon closer scrutiny.

Our last exchange on the subject: :wink:

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tgir wrote:
I think it would be wise for breeders to discuss this possibility and to find ways to encourage the introduction of fresh bloodlines into the general world of reputable breeders.

[my response then:]

What you write is so on target, but the time is NOW. The problems are here NOW. And there are no genuinely fresh bloodlines within the breed.

What should we do? Go to the backyard breeders and use their often generations of untested dogs that in any case go back to the very same dogs (follow some BYB pedigrees back, it gets very interesting - this breed is not old and the founders are few, plus throw in some genetic bottlenecks here and there), except that they are from the parts of those litters which the reputable breeders had already decided should not be bred for health or structural or temperament question marks to begin with...?

Yeah - believe me, I know. Tough one.

We have to go forward with what we have - only smarter. As for genetic diversity, we can start by not breeding generations of dogs to the same 5-10 at any given time popular stud dogs

I don't mean to suggest that we're at the point of no return, healthwise. But we've had some real wake-up calls and we need to pay close attention to what we're doing and be thinking at least 3-5 generations down the line.

Your points are well taken (and eloquently written ) though.

Kristine
------------------

It always comes back to health, doesn't it? And rightly so.

Do you really think there are fresh OES bloodlines out there outside of the show lines waiting to be tapped? What there are are generations of dogs who go back to the same dogs my dogs and all OES go back to, except few have bothered to do any health testing or selecting against genetic disease for X number of generations, never mind that few of their dogs actually resemble the breed at this point except superficially.

If they truly offered a path towards a healthier breed without compromising proper temperament, I'd probably be the first to take advantage and risk the inevitably conformational set-backs. It would be worth the trade-off to me in the long run because I'm a performance person first: pretty, just for the sake of pretty, doesn't impress me much. Functionality does. Health does. Good temperament does. Who does the best job of breeding for that in our breed? The show breeders. Why? They actually read the breed standard, have a decent understanding of what constitutes sound, and they screen for health issues. Most BYBs do not.

No health advantage means why would I want to go there? That same degree of genetic diversity maintainence - such as it is - can be found by utilizing a greater % of the breadth of the showline pedigrees instead of focusing on a relatively small number of sires. New "blood" will only be found by opening the closed registry and allowing some limited and controlled outcrossing to other compatible breeds, or for some breeds - not ours; we don't have that option - a native or other registry population.

There is precedence and a population geneticist/breeder friend of mine insists we should be considering this. I happen to think she has a valid point from a health perspective, but it's a risky move and I don't think the breed is in a position to take advantage of something like this right now, nor that the breed is in such bad shape that it is strictly necessary. Somewhere down the line this may become accepted practice for all breeds, though, in order to maintain a minimum sustainable level of genetic diversity.

As for the BYB population, they get periodic inflows of CH lines (I've been studying these pedigrees when opportunity arises), thus presumably "helping" the genetic diversity of their bloodlines. And then most of them continue right back to what they were doing to begin with: nothing in terms of health.

There are exceptions, though they're still few and far between. I can think of at least one show breeder more recently who dipped into one such gene pool. I happen to know the breeder she chose does an excellent job of health screening and has some concept of what the breed is supposed to be like. A bold move - it has happened from time to time in the past as well -and one more of us might risk emulating if there were more quality BYBs. But most have no incentive to go there. There's a thriving market for inexpensive and easily available. To supply that market, you need to cut corners, and one of the ways you do that is forego even basic health screening. That's fine for them and the people who buy their dogs and are OK with that, but it's not doing the breed any good.

As for me, I'm not a proposer, I'm a doer. And what I do is that when a BYB - or call the better ones a non-show breeder, if that's less offensive - contacts me with health questions, and it does happen periodically, I'll tell them what I know or where to look for the information they need. If they want to focus on breeding healthy dogs, I'm all for it.

Right now I'm mostly offline this week as I strive to make my dogs presentable for Sheepiepalooza. Lord knows, having a strong but indetermined link to the porcine gene pool, this is a losing battle and they will no doubt show their true colors (mud brown and grass stained green) 5 minutes after we get to St Louis, but by golly they will LOOK like OES when we get there.

What they look like upon return is anybody's guess :wink:

Kristine

I know that if you go back to the origins of the breed, you will find that the breed started from only a few lines. This is true of all breeds.

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I'm a performance person first: pretty, just for the sake of pretty, doesn't impress me much. Functionality does. Health does. Good temperament does.

Me, too.

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Who does the best job of breeding for that in our breed? The show breeders. Why? They actually read the breed standard, have a decent understanding of what constitutes sound, and they screen for health issues. Most BYBs do not.

This is one thing that I would like to see change--that more people become better educated about what does and does not make a good OES (including comformation, sound health and sound temperment).

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There is precedence and a population geneticist/breeder friend of mine insists we should be considering this. I happen to think she has a valid point from a health perspective

Exactly. She has an extremely valid point. I am not a geneticist, but I know enough genetics to feel alarm bells going off regardng OES and other breeds. And, from reading this forurm, there are a number of breeders of OES who also have concerns.

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That same degree of genetic diversity maintainence - such as it is - can be found by utilizing a greater % of the breadth of the showline pedigrees instead of focusing on a relatively small number of sires.

It seems to make sense to use a broader pool of sires. I don't know if there are enough in the show world to suffice. I don't have the numbers.

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There's a thriving market for inexpensive and easily available. To supply that market, you need to cut corners, and one of the ways you do that is forego even basic health screening.

Exactly. The other way to cut corners is to forgoe showing to championship. I understand why this raises red flags and ire from the best breeders. I agree. But few people have the financial (or time) resources to show. I also understand the risk to breeders' reputations--and ultimately the vitality of the breed. But given the number of uneducated bybs out there, I think that there needs to be some way to reach out and mentor people who are breeding without showing and perhaps testing.

When I suggest that something needs to change, I am doing so out of concern for the health, vitality and well being of the breed.

Here's another discussion:

http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=19971
[/quote]

Mad Dog wrote:

Still, many people seem not to believe that this testing is important if they're not getting a puppy from a "show breeder". Are those dogs the only ones expected to be healthy? Don't you deserve a decent shot at a healthy puppy? Why wouldn't you expect that? If you demanded proof of health testing, the BYB market would reflect that. Kristine

One of the my favorite lines that I hear from people that are looking into or just got a puppy is "We don't care about champions or any of that, we just want a healthy puppy." It makes me want to scream! I've had several experiences where I've tried to explain that a "show" breeder isn't just about looks, but quality. They do genetic and health testing, breed research, etc. The guy down the street can't offer you that! People always have a way of justifying their choices when they want something, though. Most people don't really want to hear what you know because they've already made up their mind.

Honestly, and I expect I won't get a lot of fans by saying this, but I think that the problem isn't that there is not enough reputable breeders, too many BYB or any of that. The problem is attitude and willingness to follow through from people. People who are unwilling to wait--that have to have a dog NOW. People that don't want to make a few phone calls around and talk to breeders. People that are angry because they didn't get responses back fast enough. People that have one bad experience with a breeder and want nothing to do with any of them anymore. People unwilling to spare a day to go meet a breeder at a show because they don't like dog shows or don't like show people. All these preconceived notions and, basically, excuses are what's making getting a dog from a reputable breeder a problem, not that they aren't available.

I just think when it comes to finding a companion that's going to be with you for next 10+ years, you have to put those things behind you and make an effort. If you don't want to wait for a litter, plan ahead. Call breeders when you aren't ready yet until you find one you like, then you'll be ready for when you are. They should be able to tell you when they're planning litters and then you'll know. If they don't have a litter when you're ready? Ask them to recommend someone else who may be having one in a better time frame for you. Most reputable breeders know when their colleagues are planning litters, too.

Jill i think what you and Kristine have said are hitting the nail right on the head.

People are in an instant gratification mood and don't want to spend the time letting breeders get to know them. They just want a pup NOW.. they don't want to take the time to know our dogs, nor our backgrounds nor why we turn away more people than we let have our dogs....

I have one pup from my last litter that yes, I KNOW she is in a great home, I would love them to keep in better contact with me, in fact it was in the contract, but they don't. (Hey Val how is the pup across the street doing by the way?) I don't want to be a police officer in the fact but i do worry and wonder about my 'kids'............. i still keep in touch with people from my litter 8 years ago.....

but no. i don't have them on the shelve and ready to hand out to everyone on a whim....

tgir wrote:

The other way to cut corners is to forgoe showing to championship. I understand why this raises red flags and ire from the best breeders. I agree. But few people have the financial (or time) resources to show. I also understand the risk to breeders' reputations--and ultimately the vitality of the breed. But given the number of uneducated bybs out there, I think that there needs to be some way to reach out and mentor people who are breeding without showing and perhaps testing.

Hey, if you breed OES's and your dogs are tested and their pedigrees are clear and tested, and the only thing that you do not do is show, well I would certainly buy a dog from you if you have one when I am ready!

(Providing that they are raised in a non-smoking environment, that is...Healthy is not only for hips...) :wink:

ahhhhhhhh but the BUT........

I will NOT breed UNLESS my dogs have their CH. and have been evaluated by other breeders/judges. I don't belieave ANY dog should be bred that doesn't have it's Championship and has not been evaluated by our peer's.

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nor why we turn away more people than we let have our dogs....

Thank you for making (one of ) my point(s).

Bosley's mom wrote:

Chances are, if you find a breeder that does detailed testing, they will be involved in showing as well. While it's not necessary to actively show a dog in conformation to be able to recognize good structure, etc., very few who don't actually can.

People who want the best dog possible are willing to wait and to jump through whatever hoops are necessary to get a great puppy. Too many split-second decision, BYB-produced dogs are ending up in rescue. Many have serious health and temperament problems.

Kudos to all of you quality, ethical breeders out there who don't settle for less than the best and truly care about the life you are responsible for putting on this earth.

A dog from a puppymill can be loved just as much as one from a top show breeder. Nobody here should be ashamed of their dog's beginnings, they all deserve to be loved. :hearts:

tgir wrote:

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nor why we turn away more people than we let have our dogs....

Thank you for making (one of ) my point(s).

Not really. The irony is that rescue does the same thing, just more so because we don't typically know a rescue intake's background as well as we know our own breeding. But in that case it's called responsible screening :wink:

And if we don't hear from the people who adopted on a regular basis to make sure everything is OK, we get pretty darn antsy too.

You still want a good fit for the dog, whether it's a rescue dog or your own breeding. They both deserve the same consideration.

Kristine

tgir wrote:

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nor why we turn away more people than we let have our dogs....

Thank you for making (one of ) my point(s).

I don't think that makes a point in and of itself. A lot of reputable breeders turn people away because they're quacks, not just because they're trying to not let them have one their puppies on some sort of principle. They want them to go to good homes, which is what all breeders should be striving for.

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Nicole, I understand where you're coming from but what does that do for the longevity of the OES breed? If you're working with a breeder that doesn't have any way of evaluating her dogs to the standard, over time, you're going to start deviating further and further from what an Old English Sheepdog is-- not just physically, but temperament, movement, etc. If you don't already have many years of experience with the breed, there is no amount of mentoring that someone can do to let you evaluate your own dogs. The ONLY time I would find it acceptable for someone to not be showing (like if they retired or was unable to show anymore) is if they'd spent their entire lives in the breed by breeding, showing and doing events with the breed and knew them well enough (and their own breeding stock) to create successful breeding pairs for good breedings.

Not to mention, if someone is going to take the time to be mentored, you may as well go the extra mile and show your dog since you're already time invested anyway. If you're going to be a breeder, it's a pretty small thing to do if you want to be considered reputable and you care about the breed. If you're serious, it's the price you pay. All the education in the world won't change a lot of these people anyway because they see puppies as a way to make money. They don't really care what kind of dog they're making.

Yes, I know. Being careful is a good thing.

But the demand is still outstripping the supply. Those who aren't able to get the best quality will go elsewhere.

I am really only looking for suggestions for ways to remove barriers to people who would like to breed OES--for the same reasons that all the other excellent breeders do: for the love of the breed.

tgir wrote:

But the demand is still outstripping the supply. Those who aren't able to get the best quality will go elsewhere.

I am really only looking for suggestions for ways to remove barriers to people who would like to breed OES--for the same reasons that all the other excellent breeders do: for the love of the breed.

And I am interested in ways to make it easier for people to get a well-bred puppy so they don't support the breeders who do not test.

Theoretically, all breeders should show, and all the agruments for why are good...amd the waiting lists are a great idea...In theory only....... Realistiacally, there are not enough to supply the demand...so until the drreamers wake up and realize that the battle is not going to be won that way, ill-bred un-tested pupies continue to be born and the breed will go downhill.

There are tons of breeders who are not members fo this forum...and tons of puppy buyers who are not yet memebers...but will be as time rolls on...Where did all those people get their puppies? And most of the members here are good puppy families...but could not get a puppy from a show breeder, so went elsewhere.

We did a poll once about where people go thier puppies, and it was almost 50-50 between breeder and rescue...But out of all the "breeder" puppies I would bet that there are a very small percentage on this forum who got one from a show breeder...(If I knew how to start a poll I would :oops:

- Just for the PET peoplee..

So unless most of the pet puppy owners here are bunch of losers, which I doubt, why did they not get their pups from a show breeder? Because they either didn't know how, or couldn't or there were none.

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And I am interested in ways to make it easier for people to get a well-bred puppy so they don't support the breeders who do not test.

You said it better than I did.

tgir wrote:

Hm, the demand is only outstripping supply if you wake up one morning and decide you MUST have an OES today. Jill and any number of other people have explained ad naseum why a little bit of forethought and effort means most people wouldn't have much of a problem finding a quality puppy if they really wanted to, and not spend years nor take out a second mortgage to do so.

The barriers to breeding for quality you're referring to being, I presume, that it takes years to learn about the breed and what goes into breeding wisely and you need to learn that from the people who themselves put that level of effort into the breed?

You either put genuine effort into it, as a breeder, or a purchaser, or you don't. That's a choice. No amount of handholding is going to convince someone who doesn't feel it's worth it to go that route to do so, and no amount of catering to them will prevent them from getting a puppy from the easiest route possible. That's reality.

It all comes down to this: there are no short cuts to quality. Not in producing in, not in purchasing it.

While we're all having this fun conversation there is a person who genuinely wants to learn what it takes to be a breeder who I'm working on arranging learning opportunites for, and a couple of us are working on finding her some potential mentors to pick from. She know there's a lot to learn, but she hopefully also knows we'll go out of our way to help her because she's interested, she asked for help and she's willing to put some effort into what she wants.

She started out on the same footing as most of us. Didn't "know" anybody. Took the initative and didn't serve up umpteen reasons why she shouldn't have to waste her time and effort learning about the breed and breeding. Shocking, I know :roll:

Kristine

I've started to write this probably five times now and then deleted it five times... wasn't sure I was ready to share this quite yet but we are hoping to have a puppy-boy by sometime in late August.

We seriously started looking in early April. All I knew was that I wanted a pup with the best chance of growing up with good health and excellent temperament. We had to pass on the first pup we considered... his father has mild hip dysplasia... this was something I just could not get past. The second breeder we had written to and left at least 3 messages for never replied. In the end, a friend was very kind and gave me a list of breeders she herself would purchase a puppy from. Several of them were very gracious and quickly let us know that pups weren't available... some had litters planned for later in the year. Another was very busy with business and showing but was always cordial each time we bothered him :oops:

. Since we are looking for an excellent companion, we found we wanted a breeder that provide more hands-on care rather than one that maintained more of a kennel environment.

Now... a breeder close to me has had 3 litters of puppies in just February and March.

We could have easily driven the 20 miles for this quick puppy-fix from dogs with no championships and no mention of health testing. There were 20 puppies in just two of these litters and they're selling for $1,000 each so you can get an idea of the profit involved in 3 litters if they don't show and if they don't test. But as I've said before, this would be totally against what Panda represents to me. For those that don't know Panda, she's a rescue sheepie we adopted in 2005... we adopted her because she has hip dysplasia. She also HAD severe separation anxiety which we worked through, HAD an undiagnosed persistent urachus so she peed in the house the first 1+ year (housetraining issues were actually part of her Petfinder description- we had the defect surgically corrected in February 2007), has a urinary ph imbalance, has allergies, has low thyroid, etc. We KNEW she would be difficult to place so we offered to adopt her. It seems people who live with a dog that has to suffer due to a genetic or congenital condition simply have stronger feelings about responsible and ethical breeding practices because of the suffering or challenges they have witnessed firsthand.

Anyway, instead of getting a quick and easy puppy, we're hoping for a pup from an OESCA breeder that has selectively bred and shown dogs for decades. The mother has her championship, the father does not... both are OFA "good" on hips, father OFA normal elbows, CERF with no notations. We'll have to wait 8 days or so to see if there is even a boy in the litter... then 10-12 weeks for him to grow to see if he'll be a companion-quality or champion-quality dog. There's a risk that there may not be a pup for us... oh yes, there will be tears if it doesn't happen. But it just seems a better and more responsible risk... of possibly not getting a puppy as soon as we had hoped by going with a reputable breeder rather than going with a breeder pumping out puppies, that doesn't invest in quality lines or doesn't appear to take preventative steps that responsible breeders take to help ensure healthier adult dogs.

I have to say this too... we had offered to take two special needs boys over the past year. Scruffy from a year ago and a deaf boy about a month ago. Rescue found them good homes. Some wise person (you know who you are :wink:

) recently told me this...

"Responsible pet owners either buy from a responsible breeder or they rescue."

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Hm, the demand is only outstripping supply if you wake up one morning and decide you MUST have an OES today.

Not true for us. We decided and started looking months in advance. And no, we didn't feel we would do the best job we could with any puppy if we got a puppy during the cold winter months, which are also very busy months for our family. This may seem silly to you but it isn't to us.

It wasn't a whim--it was a very thought out process for us. I went through phone calls not returned, emails not answered.

Just to be clear: I am not looking to become a breeder.

Ali wrote:

Okay this is just a musing:

Could there be another system - perrhaps in a perfect world. say one where dogs could be checked against the standard by a number of independent (read not co ownners of the parents etc) experts and determined to be "breeding stock" and not be shown? face it the dragging a dog around to get a championship happens and some dogs who get the championship are not the very best of the breed. there are show quality dogs sold to many people who don't show who could if they were interested breed quality OES.

with all that goes into showing (and now with the cost of even getting to shows) it is possible that the gene pool will shrink in the championship ring rather than expand leading to a bigger issue in the near future.

Bosley's mom wrote:

Theoretically, all breeders should show, and all the agruments for why are good...amd the waiting lists are a great idea...In theory only....... Realistiacally, there are not enough to supply the demand...so until the drreamers wake up and realize that the battle is not going to be won that way, ill-bred un-tested pupies continue to be born and the breed will go downhill. .

Why won't that work? Because asking people to plan ahead is pretty much ridiculous?

I keep hearing about demand outstripping supply but I'm wondering where this information is coming from? Just because people are going elsewhere, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a supply and demand issue.

Number one, people buy emotionally. Then, they try to rationalize their purchases. Nothing will ever change that.

It could be a marketing issue-- a lot of breeders don't have good or any websites, especially the older ones and in today's age, most people go to the internet first. Reputable breeders don't usually use resources like newspaper ads or something you stick up a bulletin board because they aren't looking for buyers looking for puppies on a whim. They want their pups going to the best homes, people who are planning ahead, not someone making a decision based on a picture they saw on their way out of the grocery store.

Just because there isn't a breeder close to you, it's not really a supply and demand issue. There's just not a breeder nearby (I guess that could be a demand issue-- you demand that a breeder be closer to you!). There may very well be puppies available but they may be further away than you'd like and you may need to get one by alternative means than driving a few miles to get one. So, in this case, it's more of a convenience issue.

It could be a communication issue with a breeder. Some people come off as huge jerks on the phone or e-mail (on either end) which can be a big turnoff to the breeder or the buyer, resulting in someone not getting a puppy. Puppies may be there but the relationship wasn't.

I see backyard breeders more as filling in the gaps in the existing market. They get first time buyers who didn't know better yet. They get the buyers that don't research and buy on a whim. They get the people that think show breeders are only for people who want to show. They get people who are willing to sacrifice quality over a couple of hundred dollars.

I don't deny that there isn't a need for more good breeders, if for no other reason that the existing ones are getting older and without new blood, the breed will begin to fizzle away. More puppies from reputable breeders won't drive people away from backyard breeders. The only thing that will is education. Talk to anyone who'll listen about buying from a good breeder, no matter what breed they want. Explain to them what it means to be a reputable breeder and why to only get pups from someone who does health and genetic testing. Explain what and why there's a breed standard. Show them pictures of some of the poor dogs that wind up in rescue that are there because the breeder wasn't there to help re-home them, as reputable breeders will.

I have absolutely nothing against consenting adults who want to get together and size up each other's dogs, and I'm sure I'd have a ton of fun attending a dog show. But dog owner responsibility apart, I'm just not sure I could conduct business with people who are so possessive about their product. I know we are talking about cuddly puppies, but if it has a price, it is still a product -- all fancy talk aside.

Again, back when i was trying to find a St. Bernard pup from a reputable breeder with alleged champion parents (sent me pictures of their dogs with lots of ribbons next to them), the process became so degrading and irritating, and I found the negotiation dynamics so insufferable that I will probably never try to get a puppy in that manner again.

After back and forth negotiating, before even showing me the puppies the breeder's posturing was that I was unsuited to own their little creatures -- despite a six-figure income, a home with a yard, and a flexible work schedule. After more pleading from me, the breeder's next move then was "prove it that you're good, then, by paying my price": $2500. If i was willing to pay that amount, they'd condescend into making an appointment to show me their damn puppies. The experience was enough to send one to a puppy mill, so I gave up on the idea of having a St. Bernard.

So eventually I got my OES pup from what some here might put down as a BYB. She was most patient and kind, knew a lot about the breed, and owned both parents. I pestered her with daily questions both before and after purchase, and she didn't mind. The pup was AKC registerable, but I didn't bother, as I wasn't going to show or breed him and papers are not important to me. I am very happy with my pup, it was one of the best decisions I've ever made. I'm not saying this to condemn the gold standard of responsibility in acquiring a pure bred pup as laid out by posters here, only to point out that it is an unrealistic standard for a lot of dog owners, even for well-meaning and responsible ones (of which I include myself).

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I keep hearing about demand outstripping supply but I'm wondering where this information is coming from? Just because people are going elsewhere, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a supply and demand issue.

Breeders on this forum say they turn away prospective buyers. Sure, some are flakes and shouldn't own any pet, but unless I misunderstood, that isn't every potential home that is turned away. And there are members of this forum who tell tales of waiting years for puppies, of being turned away multiple times. This tells me that there are more prospective OES owners who are looking to buy OES than there are responsible OES breeders with puppies available. IE demand is outstripping supply.

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Number one, people buy emotionally. Then, they try to rationalize their purchases. Nothing will ever change that.

But that's just what you are trying to do by convincing people to buy only from reputable breeders.

Our desire for a dog was emotional. But a lot of thought and a lot of research went into deciding which type of dog--including mixed breed/rescue vs pure bred would be right for us. It was not a whim for us, any of the times we got an OES.

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Just because there isn't a breeder close to you, it's not really a supply and demand issue. There's just not a breeder nearby (I guess that could be a demand issue-- you demand that a breeder be closer to you!). There may very well be puppies available but they may be further away than you'd like and you may need to get one by alternative means than driving a few miles to get one. So, in this case, it's more of a convenience issue.

We drove 4-6+ hrs each way every time we purchased an OES puppy. I realize that it is becoming more and more common to purchase puppies sight unseen, and have them flown to you, but I don't feel comfortable doing that. I want to meet the breeder, the dam and if possible, the sire. I want to see whether the pups are being raised in clean conditions, are well socialized. Maybe that's oldfashioned or unrealistic but that's part of the deal for me. BTW, this is information that no website--assuming the breeder has one--can tell me. I am not luddite enough to be unaware that people pirate other people's images and photoshop to clean up images.

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They get the people that think show breeders are only for people who want to show.

That was me. I didn't want a show dog because I didn't want to show and I didn't want to breed. I wanted a companion for my family.

BYBs also get the people who can't get a puppy from a reputable breeder, either because they don't know how (the existance of this forum notwithstanding) or the breeders they can locate don't have puppies available for them. This is a concern to me.

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with all that goes into showing (and now with the cost of even getting to shows) it is possible that the gene pool will shrink in the championship ring rather than expand leading to a bigger issue in the near future.

And so is this.

tgir wrote:

Quote:

Number one, people buy emotionally. Then, they try to rationalize their purchases. Nothing will ever change that.

But that's just what you are trying to do by convincing people to buy only from reputable breeders.

No, that's actually exactly the opposite of that.

It could be a marketing issue-- a lot of breeders don't have good or any websites, especially the older ones and in today's age, most people go to the internet first. Reputable breeders don't usually use resources like newspaper ads or something you stick up a bulletin board because they aren't looking for buyers looking for puppies on a whim

You know, i fall into this area. I do NOT know how to do a web page and have relied upon someone else to do it. I am so out to date on mine it is ridiculous...... but in the scheme of life, it is just not that important for me. I feel that word of mouth will and has worked....

Lordy i WISH i knew how to do a web page myself!!!

i got my first OES in 1974. He was the love of my life, but the most horrible of a BYB OES there could be. I had gone to a OES breeders house (one of our ex presidents of oesca btw) to see her dogs and was treaated like dirt and spoken down to unbelieveably......

did these two fractions stop me? No my next dog i went to a reputible well known OES breeder and I made payments..... they knew i was serious.

I didn't start showing until some years later, and then had to quit. After we lost our last oes at that time, my new husband and i decided we wnated another one, and i looked in England for 'new' blood. I waited for TWO years for that girl and another six months for the Boy to follow. They were my foundation.

Duncan is my boy from that girl..... Rosie that i lost last year at 14 1/2 years.... she was spry right up to the end. I bred Rosie to the most fantastic OES in MY mind/day Higgins..... to get my boy ...... and i knew /know the way i wanted my breeding program to go. I waited for years for a pup from his breeder to bring into my program but something was always 'not the right time'....... and eventually i had to look elsewhere for a girl similarily bred to continue on with what i want to go... and i found my girl Delilah......... now after 5 years, I have shown her to her titles in 3 countries, shown her at CRUFTS ...... (shown Duncan at the Swiss Euro) and fullfilled my contract with Delilah's breeder last year.... and i have just now bred 'MY" dream litter....... hopefully.

so let's see ..... 2008 minus 1974 is 34 years of waiting to get what i want and am proud of............. and people think waiting 1 year is long????

I had Brie on order for 8 years, a litter was born in the meantime but all males and was adament for a bitch. Was the wait worth it? YES

First Sheepie girl after we lost our Pet Boy took 3 years of waiting, again well worth the wait & patients. :wink:

Quote:

so let's see ..... 2008 minus 1974 is 34 years of waiting to get what i want and am proud of............. and people think waiting 1 year is long????
_________________

You had the specific goal of establishing your breeding line. If that had been my goal, I would have expected to wait a long time, as well. As it was, I wanted a companion for our family, especially while my children were growing up. I waited 13 years after starting our family to add a dog. If I had to wait another 34 years, well, I'd still be waiting, my kids would be grown, I'd be too old to manage a large dog. I still wouldn't be looking for foundation stock. I'd still be looking for a companion.

Simple answer is that yes, waiting a year or more for a companion animal is longer than most people are willing to wait. You can look down your nose all you want. The fact is that people are turning to less prestigious breeders because they want a companion not the cornerstone of a breeding program.

Simple answer is that yes, waiting a year or more for a companion animal is longer than most people are willing to wait.

Please don't be so condescending...... don't put words into my mouth.....I'm not looking down my nose at anyone.

But I find if people aren't willing to wait for a QUALITY dog...then they probably won't have the patience when it comes to this breed in growing up with housebreaking issues (something this last year has been an issue with my dumber than rocks boy) to learning to properly groom this breed!

ButtersStotch wrote:

tgir wrote:

Quote:

Number one, people buy emotionally. Then, they try to rationalize their purchases. Nothing will ever change that.

But that's just what you are trying to do by convincing people to buy only from reputable breeders.

No, that's actually exactly the opposite of that.

Actually, my apologies. I misunderstood the way you were interpreting that upon reading my post again. I probably wasn't as clear as I should've been. My intent was to say that the only way we can shift some of the emotional buying is through educating people. We'll never get rid of it all, but perhaps people will think twice before making a decision between convenience and quality.

You just don't get it.

The folks like 6girls who is getting a pup knows how to research and what she is looking for. She is not your typical puppy buyer. She admits she has learned a lot here. What about people who have never come here?

The first-time OES owners, or dog owner for that matter, does not know what to look for or even how to. Making it difficult to find a good quality PET puppy is not helping the breed...It is pushing the pet buyers to the BYB's who are often pumping out low-quality dogs...and it is easy to get a dog from them.

Given the choice between a breeder with high quality dogs, and a breeder with low quality dogs....if both are available, I would suspect the normal buyer would be willing to go for the better dog...If the breeder is taking the time to educate.

But if noone is helping with that education, and there are no good quality dogs available, and the buyer knows no better, the BYB wins every time. I would suspect that over half of the puppy purchases, maybe even 3/4 of them, by new forum members were from BYB's. They come here once the puppy is bought, and then finds out they might have supported a not-so-good breeder.

And why is that? Because there were no high quality pups to be found...either none available or none could be located. OR the breeder is actually a great breeder, but doesn't show thier dogs.

And just because folks say that buyers SHOULD wait a year for a dog, doesn't make it happen. Buyers won't. I won't. So therefore, because most breeders keep their cards so close to themselves that they won't share, what is left?

If you want to find a breeder and wait a year for a dog, fine! Go for it! But most people won't, because they don't care about where their puppy come sfrom, as long as it is healthy. And those people can be very nice, wonderful homes...Maybe someone who just lost their 10 year old pet store OES, who wants to do it right this time round, but cannot bear to wait a year for another one...And knows nothing about dog shows, and knows no-one in a club.

There is a big difference in getting a pup or a rescue dog. Rescues are on websites, and available, and can be found...There is such a stupid "taboo" about good breeders posting their dogs that is is causing the problems. Most breeders might not have dogs for sale, becasue they are all promised to people on a wating list! Or they do have dogs, but area afraid of advertising them, so they wait in kennels getting older, in case a home is refered. What a waste of a puppies first few months of bonding time.

So the cycle continues...

Whoops! We psoted at the saem time...Jil, my "you just don't get it" was not directed at you... :oops:

ButtersStotch wrote:

We'll never get rid of it all, but perhaps people will think twice before making a decision between convenience and quality.

How do you propose this education gets done? Leaving it to the buyer willnot work. Any ideas on bringing it to thier attention, if they don't go looking for it?

I apologize if I was condescending. Perhaps if you go back and re-read a lot of this thread, you might see how I felt that other posters were condescending to those of us who dare to question whether it might be possible to find an acceptable way to produce more excellent quality puppies to drive out the irresponsible breeders. Or who don't wait years for a companion.

Pretty often when I am out with my dogs people ask me about getting one. I always, always, always discourage them by emphasizing the amount of work it takes: walks, grooming, training, their intense need for affection and contact with their family. Because they are cute--but very high maintenance.

Quote:

But I find if people aren't willing to wait for a QUALITY dog...then they probably won't have the patience when it comes to this breed in growing up with housebreaking issues (something this last year has been an issue with my dumber than rocks boy) to learning to properly groom this breed!

Actually, I find this condescending.

I didn't wait years to find my dogs, yet I do have the patience to train them well, provide them with excellent vet care, keep them groomed, exercised, socialized. And loved. Imagine that.

Ali wrote:

You know, i fall into this area. I do NOT know how to do a web page and have relied upon someone else to do it. I am so out to date on mine it is ridiculous...... but in the scheme of life, it is just not that important for me. I feel that word of mouth will and has worked....

Lordy i WISH i knew how to do a web page myself!!!

The only thing I'm thinking is that, overall, it would be nice for everyone to have a website even if it's just for informational purposes and betterment of the breed. Even if it's a little out of date in terms of litters and things that, those things are less important that OES info. Where I think the real benefit would be is to have information on quality breeding, what makes a good breeder/puppy, etc. If there are enough reputable breeder websites available, at least the education gets out if people are clicking on them. If the internet gets flooded with quality breeders' sites, they'll be the first ones that people will see (hopefully) in a search engine, before the junk.

Bosley's mom wrote:

Whoops! We psoted at the saem time...Jil, my "you just don't get it" was not directed at you... :oops:

ButtersStotch wrote:

We'll never get rid of it all, but perhaps people will think twice before making a decision between convenience and quality.

How do you propose this education gets done? Leaving it to the buyer willnot work. Any ideas on bringing it to thier attention, if they don't go looking for it?

Oh no, I didn't think it was. I just wanted to apologize to tgir because I jumped to the wrong conclusion.

I think it can start with word of mouth but it really does turn into a marketing issue-- not marketing to sell, but marketing to educate and share ideas. Exploring avenues that people use, like the internet in the way of web sites for reputable breeders is a good way to start.

I think we're posting at the same time again, lol.

you know, i run the list for owners/breeders/exhibitors..... once a month we ask who has pups available........ if Ron would not mind we could put this out here too.....

what we put is number of male/female pups available.... where they are located, and breeder name and phone number . We do not advocate any one person over the other, just who has pups available......

Ali

Ali wrote:

This may seem like a dumb question, but why doesn't OESCA list that?

they will only list names of breeders by state that have signed the Code of Ethics....... it's a liability thing............last i was told.

Bosley's mom wrote:

But if noone is helping with that education, and there are no good quality dogs available, and the buyer knows no better, the BYB wins every time.

And why is that? Because there were no high quality pups to be found...either none available or none could be located. OR the breeder is actually a great breeder, but doesn't show thier dogs.

Sorry but I am not real proficient with using the "quote" segment of this forum. So I sort of selected what I wanted out of this one post to respond to. I just did a google of Old English Sheepdog. The #1 listing was the AKC site. The #3 listing was the Old English Sheepdog Club of America website. If the large majority of people are using the internet to find an OES then this should show that it is very easy to find educational information about the breed (AKC site & OESCA site) and several reputable breeders to choose from by using the very user friendly OESCA Breeder Referral Page on the OESCA website. The OESCA site also has a page with questions to ask the breeders. And a lot of people are using this method as I get several calls and or e-mails every week from people who start the coversation of with "Hi, my name is ???? ???? & I got your name off the Old English Sheepdog Club of America Website." I know a lot of the breeders listed on that referral page & I know that most of them return calls promptly & are happy to answer questions about the breed. Obviously those of you who say you aren't getting any responses have not contacted me at all as I make a point to return all phone calls (I have both my home & cell numbers listed) & all e-mails (my e-mail is listed as well as our website). Remember if you call or e-mail on Friday evening I may not get your message until Monday evening if I am away at dog shows that weekend. I respond whether I have puppies available or not. Sometimes the conversations end quickly when the buyer hears I have nothing available to go to homes until a certain date. But the majority of times the people are contacting me to start their search for an OES puppy & want to ask questions. I never have a problem with that.

[quote="ChSheepdogs"][quote="Bosley's mom"]

I make a point to return all phone calls (I have both my home & cell numbers listed) & all e-mails (my e-mail is listed as well as our website). Remember if you call or e-mail on Friday evening I may not get your message until Monday evening if I am away at dog shows that weekend. I respond whether I have puppies available or not.quote]

me too Marilyn............

ButtersStotch wrote:

This may seem like a dumb question, but why doesn't OESCA list that?

Because even the OESCA knows better than to stand by the product of all of their membership breeders. You can screen and test your stock until you are blue in the face, but there is simply no such thing as a guarantee when it comes to health no matter where your pup comes from, so caveat canis.

There are also marketing considerations here; we all know we shouldn't get pets from puppy mills or pet stores, but which breeder in the world will be willing to say, "I'm one of those UN-reputable breeders"? The show dog world is a world where everybody is above average, and frankly, if a show dog breeder is unscrupulous, how is a novice buyer supposed to know and identify fakery? Have there been cases where AKC titles or certification being interchanged or "re-used" among dogs? And if all you are looking for is just a nice pet, there is simply no reason to pay for all that show ring "prestige."

While I do believe that most show dog breeders are interested in bettering the breed, from my experience it does not seem to me that because someone is showing dogs it necessarily precludes some of them from being unscrupulous in business. It is a lot to ask of prospective dog buyers: "put your time, checkbook and faith on my hands, because I show my dogs and you'll be doing the right thing." On the other hand, hobbyist breeders may not have the most prestigious breed lineages, but it doesn't preclude them from turning out decent healthy animals and from being responsible businesspeople.

We tell people not to buy off the internet, yet expect them to go to the internet to find information on where to get a puppy? Doesn't make sense to me.

Someone looking for a puppy has already decided on that, so all the educational websites will not interest them. They are now ooking for a puppy, and where they can find one. If the only breeders with cute pictures of available puppies are BYB, then that is what will be found on the internet.

I ran into a guy last year who had an OES from a less than reputable breeder. He had it flown in from 4 hours away. He was quite surprised when I told him there where breeders within an hour's drive, and wanted to know where, as he was unable to find one 3 yeares ago when he was looking.

I, personally, would never get a puppy flown to me. I want to see the place they are born, myself, and would want to be comfortable with the breeder where I got him from. A telephone conversation and a few emails would not do it for me. And unscrupulous breeders hide behind a nice, flashy website with show ribbons etc. but the dogs are kept in filthy cages in the back barn.

All of this has been very interesting, and if nothing else, I hope that new puppy buyers who are not yet forum members are reading this and learning...

Yet how many members come here AFTER the fact, and say they wish they found this site before they got thier puppy? If people are actually on the internet then it shouldn't be hard to find, right?

So I am not convinced, still, that the general public is doing all the research that is necessary to get a healthy puppy...so that needs to change, and it will, over time. Not only for the OES, but for any breed.
In the meantime, the there really needs to be some way to make it simple to get one...So NOT to support the BYB's and the mills, and pet stores, and to stop the flow.

There are cute pictures of puppies on the internet from reputable breeders! Go to: www.kenbears.com & tell me you don't see some cute pictures of puppies. Are they available for sale? No. They are examples of what the puppies in our litters look like. It depends on when you call if we happen to have a litter at that time. We can't tell mother nature when to have our girls come into season. And believe me they don't come into season for breeding or whelp their litters at exactly opportune times either! Many times we have foregone going to particular shows or changed vacation plans because they fell during a time that a litter was due or the 5-6 day window for breeding. And as for the internet....years ago yes, I would have said most of the people advertising on there were out for the money only. But just as everything has changed with time, so has this. That is EXACTLY why OESCA went to all the trouble of setting up the breeder refferall page was to make it easier & less steps for the averagae person looking for a puppy on the interent to be able to contact a reputable breeder. I was on that committee & believe me a lot of time, discussion & work went into that effort from a wide crossection of members. Now people can contact member breeders directly instead of having to make a phone call to a person who will direct them to breeders in their area. People can now read about our particular breeding program & take a look at our pictures & see what our line looks like before they even expend the energy to dial a phone or type an e-mail. I would say that OESCA has grown with the times in this area. As I said before, if you google up Old English Sheepdog, the OESCA site is going to be there. We can't make it very much easier to find a reputable breeder.

ChSheepdogs wrote:

As I said before, if you google up Old English Sheepdog, the OESCA site is going to be there. We can't make it very much easier to find a reputable breeder.

Absolutely, and so does oes.org.

How many times has someone come on asking about a breeder they're looking into and people have explained that probably not so reputable, here is what reputable looks like, here's where to go to locate reputable breeders' contact information, just to have the person say: "thanks for the advice, folks, but all this health testing and being willing to stand behind your dogs for life sounds like bunk, so this breeder works for me".

Ok, then.

What's the old saying? "You can lead a horse to water, but..."

Many of us started out getting our first OES from a BYB. A lot of us learned the hard way why that's less than ideal. Didn't mean we loved our dogs any less, but we knew to expect more on behalf of our future dogs the next time around. Maybe it's a rite of passage that can't be short-circuited, I don't know. Most of us before the advent of the internet, though. So you hope that with the informational tools at our disposal now, if you keep putting the information out there, perhaps fewer people will have to make the same mistakes we did.

Frankly though I've often found it easier to educate BYBs than many OES puppy buyers. Not that I won't keep trying with the latter, but the former tends to have a more widespread effect.

I've had countless conversations with people insisting they got their dog from a reputable breeder, just to realize they have no concept of what reputable means and the breeder they got their dog from could be a poster child for the type of breeder not to get a dog from. But they have superb marketing skills, and most hobby breeders do not.

To get turned down by a reputable breeder or put on a waiting list for years <?>, you have to actually contact at least one first. Marilyn, if you don't have a litter planned or on the ground, you refer to someone you know does, right? You don't "hoarde" potential puppy buyers. You send them along. I usually send them to the breeders I know have more time and patience for talking to new prospective owners. I've referred people to you, as a matter of fact, knowing you'd take the time to talk to them. I do have a short list of breeders I probably won't refer to except in a face-to-face as their phone skills are somewhat lacking to put it politely.

Tgir - feel free to PM me the names of the show breeders you contacted who never contacted you back and I'll be more than happy to have a word with them. It's a small world and since you stayed pretty local, I can guarantee you I know who they are and won't refer people to them in the future if your bad experience is indicative of a bigger trend.

Kristine

Bosley's mom wrote:

We tell people not to buy off the internet, yet expect them to go to the internet to find information on where to get a puppy? Doesn't make sense to me.

Again though, it's the difference between reputable and non-reputable information. I'm not talking about sites set up just to sell, but sites set up to educate and give people contact information for good breeders. Not an online bulletin board where it's just a bunch of pups for sale a la Puppyfind.

First off, the internet is one of the last places I'd look to find a reputable breeder of anything, unless I already was familiar with the site. If I was a newbie, I wouldn't be. If everything had gone well with my first OES, I might not be. In my case, I had no internet when I got my first OES and I don't think I did for my second, who is turning 9 in about 11 days. I did a lot of reading from books from the (gasp) library, and bookstores, etc. Always was on the lookout for those. But since I didn't intend to show or breed, I didn't go looking for an association in my state. And I live outstate. Minneapolis/St. Paul really doesn't remember we exist most of the time--and then it's only the govt. But I get a statewide newspaper. I don't ever remember seeing OES events advertised--but I wasn't specifically looking.

Second off, not everybody uses google as their search engine (gasp!). M default search engine is Netscape/AOL. Just now, I typed in old english sheedog and in order, this is what came up:

1. Old English Sheepdog . home raised Live Puppy cam some have blue eyes (webaddress)

2. Cocker Spaniel Puppies. Bargan prices. You want it, we got it. BizRate

3. old englsh sheepdogs AOL Search Reference Center (general info)

4. Old English Sheepdog (Wikipedia entry)

5. Old English Sheepdog Information and Pictures (dogbreedinfo.com)

6. Everything about Old English Sheepdogs (this site)

7. Old English Sheepdog Posters and Prints....

8. AKC Old English sheepdog site

9. OESCA site

10. NOESR.org

11. Us again

12 Debs Old English sheepdog page (basic info)

13. Texas OES Rescue...

You get the picture.

So, pretend you are a newbie and you find this site. Now, look for breeder referral:
On the main page, there are 2 links that would imply this is where I'd go to find a puppy:
1. Want an Old English Puppy? This link takes me to the OES rescue link, a list of 10 reasons I want an older dog and a list of ways to choose a puppy--but no breeder referral or even anything that would help me decide if this was a decent breeder or not.
2. Get a Sheepdog! same links as above.

I remember thinking that this site does NOT want me to get a puppy.

I went to the community link. Which also led me to the rescue link and 10 reasons to consider an older dog. And the forum.

I scanned the forum subheadings and found: (first on the list of stickies)
Looking for a puppy or a reputable breeder?
A post by Ron with the email contact info of Tarja.

Second post is a quick note saying that she (temporarily) didn't have email access.

This was after we had tried rescue and there were no dogs available who seemed as though they'd work in our family, with one other dog already.

I don't remember where I got the link to Minnesota (and Wisconsin) breeders, but those I contacted did not contact me back. Maybe I'm a jerk. Probably I was too impatient: after a week or so, I ventured out on my own again, and found Sherman and Sophie. I knew this wasn't the best situation but forged ahead, not really knowing if I'd ever find what I wanted elsewhere. I have run into only one or two people in my town who EVER owned an OES. And that was years back.

Would I have gone about things differently if I were looking for a show dog or a dog that I wanted to breed? Of course. I would have expected to wait perhaps years to find just what I wanted. But what I wanted was a companion that I'd never breed. I had good luck previously, and so I took another chance.

Most people in this day and age do go to the internet first for most things, especially younger people. You're in the minority of people that don't use the internet as a search tool not to mention, you're not getting a really "clean" search if you're using AOL. Try using a better search engine like Google (which is what most people use above all other search engines) and you'll see that oes.org and OESCA are first.

tgir wrote:

I don't remember where I got the link to Minnesota (and Wisconsin) breeders, but those I contacted did not contact me back.

Back then, you'd never have found a reputable breeder without going to a show and you wouldn't have known how to find show information because only the biggest ones ever get even a newspaper mention. The only way you were going to find any breeders were through newspaper ads and reputable breeders weren't supposed to advertise there, so it was all word of mouth.

The WI OES club's president shocked all of us a couple of years ago by stating she was going to advertise her litters in the paper. (She was also our rescue coordinator for years).

Gasp! Say it isn't so!!!

She said: "That's where people go to find puppies and what are they finding? BYB puppies. Better they find me! I'll still screen my potential puppy buyers like I always do".

She was right, of course. Times change, but finding the kind of information Marilyn talked about online is recent.

Maybe I'm a jerk.

Of course you're not. Or if you are, most of us are too. Told you. Been there, done that.

And you're right that you will be steered towards rescuing a dog before you ever hear about how to purchase a puppy. It's the politcally correct thing to do. We've all been indoctrinated to some extent. There's been a push for at least the last ten years to eradicate breeders, all breeders.

Reputable breeders took the criticisms leveled against them (all breeding being essentially evil, you know) and worked hard to become more ever more responsible, making themselves even more invisible and even more protective in some ways.

I remember when breeders, reputable breeders, mind you, were online and active members of general OES e-mail lists sharing their experiences - grooming, health, training, whatever - helping people. They helped me. They never sold me a dog, never tried to; they were just caring people who reached out and helped novices any way they could when asked.

Ten years later almost all breeders have been silenced on the list I'm thinking of.

Then I turn around and what do I see: some are still alive and well on this forum. Where we may get a little rowdy some times, but you'll still run into people of all kinds of backgrounds and with all kinds of experiences.

As far as I'm concerned, this forum is the best thing that ever happened to the breed. It brought people back together, brought issues out in the open and into the forefront.

I may be tired of talking to people who don't want to listen about what a reputable breeder is, but I'll also take any complaints back the breeders I know and say: hey! We're doing a bad job of responding to people. What can we do better?

Healthier for the breed in the long run.

Kristine

Ok, the quote above is only partially me. Just to be clear.

Quote:

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:40 am Post subject:
Most people in this day and age do go to the internet first for most things, especially younger people. You're in the minority of people that don't use the internet as a search tool not to mention, you're not getting a really "clean" search if you're using AOL. Try using a better search engine like Google (which is what most people use above all other search engines) and you'll see that oes.org and OESCA are first.

I know what Google is and I know which search engines give me better results depending upon what I'm looking for. That's not the point: google is not the exclusive search engine for a lot of people, depending upon what provider and what computer set up they use. It's not even the main search engine for my employer, which is a very large organization.

The point I was trying to make was that this forum is not always that easy to find and once here, it isn't always that easy to figure out how to contact reputable breeders, although everybody on this forum says that's the only responsible thing to do. I wonder if it would be possible to link to OESCA?

I work with mostly people in their mid-twenties to early 30's--I'm old enough to be the mother of most of my co-workers. ONE actually did go to the internet to find a puppy: she got a puggle. I know. I agree. She talked with the 'breeder' and purchased her puppy seen only in photographs. The poor thing was flown out to her and arrived underweight and parasite ridden. It took a lot of money for her to clear up the parasites. Dog still has health issues. Behavior issues will never clear up, probably.

A few of us look on PetFinder to find rescues and a couple do breed specific rescue. Most people who are looking for specific dogs go by word of mouth. Just like in the olden days. But I'm still the only person I know (aside from the internet) who actually owns an OES.

See, I have to agree with Jill. For me, before I do anything else (lol, even before I look for a restaurant phone # in the yellow pages), I look it up online. Google is my search engine of choice. So of course there are many different search engines out there that people can use, but it's hard to deny Google is going to be awfully high on people's lists to use first.

If I wanted a puppy and didn't have any contacts with anyone, the first thing I would do is get on the internet. And that's where it gets hard, though, because like many have said before, lots of the reputable breeders don't use the internet to advertise (or not even advertise in the sense of selling their puppies, but in the sense of having their presence known out there, so newbies can see the difference--even through a website and photos--between byb and more quality dogs).

You have wonderful rescue people in the WI/MN area and they know who the bad breeders in the area are. Most of the dogs taken in come from them. :evil:

If you don't like using the internet, contact someone on the rescue contact list (or several of them if you'd like) and ask their opinions of a breeder that you're interested in. They may not be able to recommend a specific breeder (I always mention several as I try not to play favorites) but they can help steer you in the right direction.

Well now I know how to go about it. I didn't with my first 2 oes. For one thing 16 years ago (Merlin), I had no internet access at all. 9 years ago (Archie), my only internet access was limited and through work or through my husband's work. 2 years ago (Sophie and Sherman), I eventually found this forum--. My husband contacted rescue but at the time the only OES available were for 'only dog' homes--and we had Archie. Except for one who had possible aggression problems. We seriously considered him but in the end, were concerned because we live smack in the middle of town and it seemed risky. We didn't want to fail that dog. So I tried the puppy route via this forum. I didn't get phone calls or emails answered for a couple of weeks--and so I went out on my own.

It will be quite a few years before I puppy hunt again, if I do. I'm just trying to get people to realize that it isn't as easy as all that if you are starting relatively cold. Pretend you don't know what you do now: try negotiating this site like a newbie. Say, your 14 year old OES died last year and you want to get another. You now live 5 states away and feel better trying to find someone closer to you. Try to find a reputable breeder--try to find yourself! as if you were brand new to puppy hunting.
Just try and see if it is as easy as you think--if what you find first is a list of good reputable breeders.

I just bought my first dog and I did buy from an OESCA breeder. However, the first thing I did was check AKC.org. I thought that the dog being AKC was all that mattered, at least that is what I had read in a puppy book. It was because of this site that I found out that AKC means nothing. How to buy a good quality puppy is not in the dog books. The dog books warn against puppy mills but they do not go into detail about the health risks that come from byb. In fact, I read in one book that Champion breeders only proved that their dogs won a beauty contest and you were only paying extra for a better looking dog.

I think this site does a fantastic job informing people. Once you come here and read around you cannot claim ignorance if you buy from a BYB. In fact, after reading all the things you all said about BYB I was too afraid to even look at their puppies! You are very convincing here!

Ella

Part of the answer is good search engine placement for key information on how and where to buy quality puppies. If people aren't searching online for breeder information, I'm not sure how they're going to go about finding contacts for breeders. Heck, the one 20 miles from me doesn't even advertise in the local paper... I found them online! You won't be able to save the buyers who won't use the internet as a tool... or those that simply choose to buy from the BYB in their own backyard because it's convenient... or those that just want a cheap dog. You could invest in door to door education, TV ads or direct mail to reach people not using the internet but that's just impracticable. I think you have to accept these buyers can't be saved from their lack of knowledge.

Quote:

The folks like 6girls who is getting a pup knows how to research and what she is looking for. She is not your typical puppy buyer. She admits she has learned a lot here. What about people who have never come here?

4 1/2 years ago I was that clueless, first time buyer. I had never purchased nor owned a purebred dog in my life. We contacted the local local kennel club and eventually took our search online. We NEEDED a puppy NOW because we had lost our beloved OES-mix of 11 years and were devastated. So I can understand the impatient buyer and have learned this is not a good quality when searching for a companion dog. Our first two sheepies came from someone termed a BYB and I love them dearly. We asked about hips but did not know to ask about OFA ratings... nor thyroid, CA, PRA, epilepsy, serious autoimmune conditions, allergies, etc. We could have ended up with really bad qualities so we were very fortunate.

The next two sheepies we got were special needs rescues. We adopted them BECAUSE they had problems. They taught me that all breeders should pretest to help prevent suffering in the dogs they create... I feel breeders are obligated to do this if they're breeding ethically.

Championships alone do not indicate a dog is ok to breed. Beautiful packaging can hide things like mild hip dysplasia. Testing alone does not mean a dog is ok to breed either. How many conditions can't you test for that might cause serious problems? Again, just my uneducated view here but it seems it takes the above two things combined with a knowledgeable and experienced breeder who has researched lines and is carefully selecting breeding pairs to make the best puppy possible. This is the approach I'm hoping will provide me with a sound puppy.

Quote:

Obviously those of you who say you aren't getting any responses have not contacted me at all as I make a point to return all phone calls (I have both my home & cell numbers listed) & all e-mails (my e-mail is listed as well as our website).

Yup! I tried to stay closer to home this time :wink:

I contacted Cathy in mid-April and can definitely say that Ken-Bear's promptly replies to emails! We were hoping to have a pup by August but were told none will be available until fall. Other OESCA breeders were also prompt in replying.

There is one though that failed to respond to any of the 3 messages left or the email sent... beginning April 7th. If she's impossible to reach now, she'll be at least difficult to reach after we get a pup.

I can't get past this "having to wait for a year or two" to get a pet quality dog... do you mean from a specific breeder within driving distance? I found that several breeders are planning pups for this fall so even if you were to start you're search today, you might have to wait only 4-5 months maybe?

I agree with Jill also. When we were looking for Edgar we did almost all of our looking around on the internet. I remember finding it very frustrating not being able to find sites that had puppy's. Yeah I saw the offical list but didn't realize the importance of it. And none on the breeders on the list had web sites for me to look at. The first place (byb) we almost bought Edgar from had a great web site. And they were close. Thankfully we figured it out from oes.org and a dog lover friend that the place we were going to buy from was a byb. We did not want to support that. We had already put down a deposit on one of the pups. We were willing to walk away from that $250 deposit then buy where we shouldn't have (though we did get the money back).

Lee and I came to the conclusion after our experience that finding a good breeder with a web site was just not going to happen. You have to call numbers. I would so rather look at someones web site before calling. Maybe if all the good breeders had a web site and reinforced why puppy's should be bought from a good breeder it would be better.

Though before we moved into our vacation condo two weeks ago the owners were asking about our dogs. When they found out we had a boy and girl (at the time) we were asked if we were going to breed them.

YIKES! So maybe if you could find a solution for the issues here it still wouldn't help the half of the population who don't care/see what the big deal about it is.

crustybirds wrote:

Lee and I came to the conclusion after our experience that finding a good breeder with a web site was just not going to happen. You have to call numbers. I would so rather look at someones web site before calling. Maybe if all the good breeders had a web site and reinforced why puppy's should be bought from a good breeder it would be better.

There are some good breeders who have good, informative websites. More are coming online, but it's slow going. The Europeans and Australians are light years ahead of breeders in the US.

The WI OES club is finally constructing a club website. The club has been around since...the 70s??? Yikes! :lol:

Western Reserve just got their own site, if I'm not mistaken

Even at the club level going online is not the first thing that comes to mind. A local rescue person has to help both the Chicagoland and Wisconsin clubs get their rescue dogs on Petfinder. Nobody in our club knows how! We made her a club member. Poor woman. :lol:

Kristine

The good news is that dog cloning is coming, and in a decade or so people will be able to mail order a perfectly healthy and beautiful cloned puppy from a catalog, and not have to deal with breeders altogether, reputable or otherwise:

From today's NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/us/21dog.html?ref=us

May 21, 2008
Biotech Company to Auction Chances to Clone a Dog
By JAMES BARRON

A California company is planning a string of online auctions next month to clone five dogs, with the bidding to start at $100,000.

... and you thought buying from a reputable breeder was expensive????

I really hoped that my orig post would spark debate at least people care.

i am looking for a good breeder i had an oes who passed away at 11 years old from bone cancer i see so many ads for puppies ranging from 400.00 to 20000.00 i live in long island new york and i am getting real iconfused i have emailed different breeders back yard breeders to sho w breeders no one in my area has pups right now i will wait until the right breeder and pup comes into my life dose anyone know of a good breeder long island new york

I know a good breeder in Canada who ships out of Buffalo NY. [redacted] has beautiful dogs. I have a 14 month old I got from her last year...and I live in Los Angeles. She was there for me when I lost my last OES. Good Luck!!!

Welcome guest.

Sorry to hear of your loss of your 11 y/o to cancer.

Please consider registering on the forum so that you can take advantage of all the features including the ability to send and receive private messages.

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your 11 year old. It's always difficult to loose one of these beloved companions.

If you register and post again, I can send you a private message about puppies currently in Indiana.

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AKC CHAMPION Parents. OFA & CERF Certified.

So sorry to hear of your loss, If you register and pm me, I know a breeder in upstate NY, who has puppies now. Again I am sorry for your loss.

Lost my 10 year old in May to cancer. It's such a shock.Please know we are thinking of you and know we too are getting a puppy. The house is just too quiet.

rts243@optonline.net wrote:

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