I was told my dog is "Aggressive"
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Hmmmm, I don't think Gar should be nipping hard enough to remove fur and break the skin...  |
| I'm so sorry to hear this! How old is Gr? |
| Having fostered Gar....and given his "interest" in my cat.
He has high prey drive and you probably need to not take him to dog parks that don't have separate areas for small and big dogs. Personally, if I had a little dog I wouldn't be STUPID enough to take them to a mixed dog park because a lot of dogs, not just herding dogs, but especially sighthounds and the likes, are going to perceive them as prey. I've taken Lucali's faux Havanese with me to agility trials and I CARRY her around because you don't let a hippity-hoppity white and black ball of hair flit around even highly TRAINED dogs who are already in high drive. Sheesh, Belle's daughter Liz once took a clump of hair off of her mom's back - I mean she left a bald spot. Belle was running and Liz was chasing and wanted to make her STOP so she grabbed a mouthful of hair and put the brakes on . Is she aggressive? No. That's herding related behavior. What Gar is doing, if he's singling out little dogs, falls more into the strictly prey drive side of things but it's not aggression in the classic sense of he has "issues" with other dogs. It's instinct. One that could prove equally as deadly so it's going to be up to you to leash him and leave when some not so smart small dog owner lets his dog run with the big guys so it's at least not your fault when somebody decides to make a snack of the dog. Remember Mandy's Suzy and the bunny? Is she vicious? No. Prey drive. We forget sometimes that they ARE dogs. One of my current fosters is sweet as the day is long and I take her to dog parks and she fits right in with my pack and she has wonderful canine social skills and NO other dog issues. But when she sees my cat she loses it. I wouldn't trust her with small running dogs either. Kristine |
Now I want to see what happens if I leave Suzi alone with my mom's Bichon!!  |
Maxmm wrote: Now I want to see what happens if I leave Suzi alone with my mom's Bichon!!
I am so looking forward to this weekend! |
| I have posted this before but here we go again. I have had two behaviorist in two different states volunteer that they don't think dog parks are good for herding dogs. Herding is really prey drive redirected.
I am not sure where all this dog park mania comes from - I do take Morgan sometimes on the weekends but really dogs are pack animals, not social butterflies. |
| I have never, will never go to a dog park. We have quite large one in Ithaca. My dogs do "socialize" with other dogs, but only dogs I know and only in a controlled atmosphere.
But, I guess I have to agree, a "herding" nip should not be forcefull enough to break skin and remove hair. IIf he is nipping dogs at the dog park it may be out of fear not aggression but either way it is not acceptable behavior and he does not appear to ready for the "dog park" experience. Tasker has always "herded" other dogs but I have never seen him nip while doing it. The dog park may not be the best place for your dog. |
kerry wrote: I have posted this before but here we go again. I have had two behaviorist in two different states volunteer that they don't think dog parks are good for herding dogs. Herding is really prey drive redirected.
I am not sure where all this dog park mania comes from - I do take Morgan sometimes on the weekends but really dogs are pack animals, not social butterflies. Kerry, I don't think it's so much the social aspect as there are few other places you can legally take your dogs to really RUN these days. I know I don't go for the other dogs and much prefer to have the place to myself, but then I bring my own pack. Last night we nonetheless had an Aussie, a couple of BCs, a young Mastiff and a Sibe in addition to my four. A good time was had by all, but they are all dogs that don't have issues with other dogs, i.e. play nice. Being together doesn't change that or turn them into prey driven monsters. Dogs who have problems with other dogs regardless of breed don't belong in dog parks, it's true. But that's different. From what I've seen the parks don't create problems in socially adept dogs, but they make them worse in dogs who are not, or who are too socially immature to handle it. I.e. I won't take puppies there. Kristine |
kerry wrote: Maxmm wrote: Now I want to see what happens if I leave Suzi alone with my mom's Bichon!! I am so looking forward to this weekend! She said that she was going to bring him over for me to groom this weekend. I said only if she drops him off so that he can learn not to be such a momma's boy. I figured without her babying him, he'd learn to be cool with the big dogs! |
Maxmm wrote: kerry wrote: Maxmm wrote: Now I want to see what happens if I leave Suzi alone with my mom's Bichon!! I am so looking forward to this weekend! She said that she was going to bring him over for me to groom this weekend. I said only if she drops him off so that he can learn not to be such a momma's boy. I figured without her babying him, he'd learn to be cool with the big dogs! Or he'll be someone's lunch? We have a 3.5 pound long haired Chihauha in Marley's agility class (yes we all get a nice long rest). When the Chi walks the dog walk toward Marley the owner always asks me to move Marley so the little one won't feel intimidated. One of the other peole suggested we should just hope none of the other dogs are looking for a snack  |
| I find the dog park to be more trouble than it's worth.
That being said, an obvious missing tuft of hair on a small dog versus a big dog is a little bit more of a big deal. It takes a decent bite to pull out a hunk of hair and that's a bit more than a nip. Unfortunately, people use the word aggressive to describe any and all behavior that involves any kind of biting, even if it's just rough play. Like Kristine said, sometimes when a dog has a prey drive like that, though, the dog park just isn't a place for them. It stops being fun for you because you have to watch him so closely and you wind up being stressed out that he's going to hurt someone every time he plays. |
Mad Dog wrote: Kerry, I don't think it's so much the social aspect as there are few other places you can legally take your dogs to really RUN these days. WHich is why I have always thought dog parks should have runs for family packs. Quote: Being together doesn't change that or turn them into prey driven monsters. Oh I don't think that was the point. I suspected it was more of an issue of getting them riled up a bit and making other dogs (and dog owners) a little annoyed. Face it when my guys herd sheep they never hurt the sheep, but they do seem to chase them around a bit. soem dog owners don't like their dogs to have to play "sheep". Quote: Dogs who have problems with other dogs regardless of breed don't belong in dog parks, it's true. But that's different. From what I've seen the parks don't create problems in socially adept dogs, but they make them worse in dogs who are not, or who are too socially immature to handle it. I.e. I won't take puppies there.
At what point do you take them? I am asking because I am torn about taking Mr. Newfie Puppy. My problem with dog parks is all the owners saying they need to bring the dogs to socialize (not sure if that is true) and then all they do is stand around and socialize themselves. with no thought being given to how their dogs behave. One golden owner always takes the stand that her baby is submissive (thanks ceasar  ) and couldn't possibly be at fault so why did Morgan growl at him?
Now Morgan in addition to being the biggest dog at the dog park (until Mr. Newfie is full grown  ) is also the most balanced and stable dog you ever want to meet. this golden is always biting at Morgan's shoulders and trying to act dominant and Morgan usually just shakes him off - until he gets tired of him when he will turn and bark or growl. Personally I think Morgan is behaving very well - I have seen him turn on Marley for doing the same thing and pin her to the ground, so I know he is using his "company" manners. But at that point stupid mr golden hits the ground and rolls over - which is all the owner sees and she does "oh see how submissive he is Morgan is being mean to him" arrgh!!!! |
| Hi,
Ah dog parks - Yes definately not for all. It depends on the dog , the breed does have something to do with it and of course the dog's overall personality. I can almost say with confidence that the fellow playing tug of war with his little dog caused his smaller dog to emit aggressive sounds which Gar misinterpreted was directed at him. Most trainers and behaviorist suggest one should never play tug of war with their dog as this usually viewed by dogs as a vie for dominance. Unless the owner was absolutely sure they were going to win. I would never play tug of war with my dog at an offleash park, nor bring food, or let small kids on bikes race around nor use the dog park as a jogging park, but I've seen it all done by unknowlegable people. Gasp! I even saw one silly family set up a picnic in the offleash area and then complain the dogs were "bothering them" duh! I have heard in sheep trials that it's true if a dog nips the sheep too hard this is cause for elmination but not put down. Overall, it's been my experience that many many people who visit the dog park do socialize as Kerry mentioned and do not pay attention to their dogs and many more are not aware of dog behavior and view a majority of behavior as aggressive. I always comment it's kinda like letting someone hold your 10 month old child and they return it to you in an angry tone stating the baby is aggressive if they pulled hair or tried to grab the persons face. When you put it in that perspective it sounds pretty silly doesn't it? Previously I was the steward of the offleash dog park run by the city that was 3 blocks from my home. I got tired of explaining to people how dogs play (this did not include my own) and found the whole experience frustrating many times. I once had a Charles Manson lookalike pyscho guy tell me to get my "dirty disgusting filty dog away from his"  I laughed thinking he was joking and he gave me the weirdest look and picked up my dogs ball and threw it on the busy street. Thankfully all the gates were shut.
I now visit another 17 acre park which I go daily with Panda. Panda can handle it while Merlin tends to get rumbunctious. Merlin and Blue go for walks in the woods or around the neighborhood. The offleash park isn't for everyone - dogs and humans included and I'm sorry you had to experience that. Hopefully you'll find a place which you can bring your boy to race around to his hearts delight. Perhaps find a playmate that equals his exhuberance? I also started only taking one dog at a time in order to always watch their play and was able to distract if I saw a potential situation that may develope. The recall is very important and while Merlin would need a few calls , Panda comes immediately whether in the middle or play or not. That could be something you could work on before returning to the park. Sometimes letting them have a few mins away lets them calm down. Sorta like kids that get overexcited in some ways. Good luck! Marianne |
| Oh, Kerry - everything you say is so true...
Yes, you have to beware the owner who wants your dogs to exercise their dog while they stand around chatting, completely oblivious to the dynamics. I just keep moving and call my dogs with me. And, yes, there's also a widespread shocking lack of understanding when it comes to basic dog behavior. Many Goldens, labs and I think perhaps our breed should also be included, fall into the infamous group of "rude" dogs whose owners often can't see they are being rude, because everyone knows they are so friendly and wiggly and they're just playing, right? Or, in our dogs' case, "herding". Then they get their feelings hurt when another dog rightly tells the obnoxious dog off, and the dog who clearly says "enough!" gets labeled aggressive (maybe) In the grand scheme of the real damage dogs could inflict on us and each other, overall the vast majority of dogs are surprisingly restrained, yet we seem intent on labeling every little bark and growl as viscious. Anyway, dog parks and puppies. It's not a magic age - it's an individual assessment of the where the puppy is in terms of social skills (and size, though in Mr Newfie's case  ) I just try to make sure the puppy has been exposed to lots of other (predominantly other dog savvy) dogs in more controlled environments and is showing signs that they have some idea how to handle themselves socially (happy confidence) That way if a really rude dog runs up to them at the park, they can fall back on their social skills to deal with it rather than that being a big part of their actual socialization process. Or if they are rude and another dog tells them off, they speak dog well enough to take it for what it is, say thanks for the reminder, and move on.
It helps when the puppy is raised in a pack and it helps to go with a buddy. And the first few times I bring puppies (I've brought them as young as six months - more often 9-12 mos, but that's just a rough gauge) I'm hypervigilant, keep my guys away from any group play and cheerfully pack them all back into the car if I see trouble of any kind brewing in the park. No hard and fast rules: just know your own dog and know how to read dogs. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: In the grand scheme of the real damage dogs could inflict on us and each other, overall the vast majority of dogs are surprisingly restrained, yet we seem intent on labeling every little bark and growl as viscious.
You know I have given this a lot of thought in the last week or two - how odd. What I realized was everytime Marley made contact with another dog, even the time she had the poor silkie pinned to the ground in -ADVANCED obedience class - there was never a mark on any of the other dogs. she went after our thin skinned (literally and figuratively) Irish setter the other day in the kitchen when she thought he was going after her treat and I couldn't find a scratch on him. I know (from being stupid enough to get my hand between the two of the sheepies when they were teenagers and having an argument) that those teeth just need to make contact to make a punture wound (ouch). I think this take a huge amount of restraint. of course others don't quite see it that way.  |
You know, Annie has snapped, clicked, pulled tufts of hair and pecked Foz to the ground hundreds of time. For all those times, I can't even count on one hand the # of times blood was drawn. A few times was just on Foz's snout and the others were Annie biting her own tongue  That being said, Foz does know how to duck and get out of the way. This can be very scary for humans to watch (I get scared sometimes) and especially scary for unfamiliar dogs and people. Annie has herded small children before with her teeth (not aggressively) and people do freak out. |
Stacy wrote: people do freak out.
they just have no sense of humor |
Quote: At what point do you take them? I am asking because I am torn about taking Mr. Newfie Puppy.
I absolutely hate it when this happens: People take their little, impresionable puppies to the dog park. The puppy is so overwlemed it sits betweenits owner's leegs or it goes to explore and when a bigger dog tackles it, the puppy goes running to its owner. Then the owner backs away, and won't "protect" the puppy and tells it to stop being such a suck...Grrrr... What I did with Bosley, was at 4 months old I started to take him for short trips....I never was further than 3 feet away, and I kept a very close eye on who he played with. Any dog that had the remotest look of dominance or too rough play I called Bosley away and we moved on. Often I would stand in front of him, like a wall, away from dogs I did not want him to interact with. What I was doing is building up his confidence, and staying close so he had a shelter if needed. There was no way that he was going to be bullied by a rude dog and then he could be scarred or tramatized. Every trip was pleasant and fun. He only played with nice dogs and he learned to enjoy the company of almost all breeds. At a young age it is so easy for something to happen, that could impact his view for the rest of his life. But that being said, something must have happened at some point, because he does not like boxers....Must have happened when he went his my husband... |
| I feel so sorry for Simon's Mom who just wanted to let Simon enjoy a nice romp. |
| I've been taking Luna and Tonks to our dog park since they were 18 weeks old; the age our vet recommended to allow your vaccinated pup to be with other dogs of unknown medical history.
From the first day they loved it. But I've also had my girls in obedience training school since 12 weeks of age, and every 5-10 minutes they check back in with me. We also don't stay in one place; our park ahs 3 play fields, as well as paths through the woods. So we wander from field to field, socializing. Sometimes we stop at one for a while if a dog they are perticularly friendly with is there. And we walk the paths in the woods which they LOVE to do. and yes, I socialize with other dog owners, but I'm always watching where my girls go, and what they do. And at the first sign of ANY dog getting into an altercation, I'm always calling mine to come to me. |
Stacy wrote: You know, Annie has snapped, clicked, pulled tufts of hair and pecked Foz to the ground hundreds of time. For all those times, I can't even count on one hand the # of times blood was drawn. A few times was just on Foz's snout and the others were Annie biting her own tongue
That being said, Foz does know how to duck and get out of the way. This can be very scary for humans to watch (I get scared sometimes) and especially scary for unfamiliar dogs and people. Annie has herded small children before with her teeth (not aggressively) and people do freak out.I agree, and Tasker and Ty can get quite rough with each other (I've never seen blood flow). BUT I think there is a difference between dogs that live together "getting into it" and strange dogs at a dog park. Much as I sympathize with Simons Mom, I think if it were my dog that got nipped I would be upset as well. That being said, I'm all for segregating dogs by size. |
| I am really sorry this happened. Maybe we should find a dog park between Milwaukee & Madison for the dogs to get together and they could heard each other. Miley heards the dogs at the dog park as well.
For her it is not the little dogs but those just a little smaller her than she - a duck trooling retriever. She plays chase nicely for awhile and then she starts to go for the shoulder. For me that is my signal to move on. But sometimes the dog(s) follow so I ask the owner if they mind. I want to do the right thing and correct her behavior but I don't really know what to do other than leave. Any suggestions on how to correct? We started going to a different dog park that has more open spaces so the urge to heard is less but the other park is closer to home. Becky & Miley |
| I have never taken my dog to a dog park. I am mostly fearful of how other dogs will interact with Hollie. We have play dates at my house and I have never had any problems. We hike a lot and when Hollie is tired she starts to herd us by nipping at our heals and herding us. I find when she is done her exercise her nips get more often and a little harder. Nothing too hard though. |
| I don't know whether it's me, but reading these stories I come to the conclusion that the owners maybe the problem more than the dogs, certainly where I live in the UK the owners seem quite amiable to Archies bouncy behaviour, those that know there dogs don't handle situations with other dogs well tend to be kept on the lead - I don't have a dog park as such we have the town walks and surrounding fields and public spaces, and it seems that most owners adapt a policy of restraining their dogs on meetings with other dogs at first (you see people walking their dog freely of lead, when within distance of meeting an unfamilar dog or elderly maybe known grumpy , people put their dogs back on the lead) when the owners are happy with the respective dogs then they'll pass and let the dogs have a play. In the open fields it seems accepted that dogs will be off the lead and will play as dogs will, people who don't wish to expose their dog to other dogs off the lead like this tend to avoid going into the field or do it at a time when they know no one else would be there.
Interesting to read these stories not only about the dogs but it gives you an insight into other people and places. |
Quote: I once had a Charles Manson lookalike pyscho guy tell me to get my "dirty disgusting filty dog away from his"
YOU SHOULD HAVE PUNCHED HIM IN THE NOSE!!!!! That really ticks me off. As for the dog park, I'm so sorry -- that must have really hurt you and made you feel bad. Mona and I love the dog park but thankfully the small dogs are on the other side. I hope everything works out and maybe that person won't come back to the dog park!! |
| I do have to say this did hurt my feelings although if it was my dog that was nipped I probably would have said something too.
We have not been back to the dog park since mostly because we were on vacation . While we were gone we boarded the dogs at a place that is also a daycare. The dogs were in a daycare situation for eight days. I did tell them about Gar's herding small dogs. I called once to see how things were going(the only time my cell phone worked on top of a mountain), and they said great except that Gar's pads were getting sore(he has tender pads) and they curtailed his day at times. When we picked them up, I asked if there were any problems and they said no, they were great.
The reason I added the above paragraph is to show that BOTH of my dogs are good with other dogs. I will deal with the nipping issue by taking longer walks away from the open play area and putting Gar on a leash when we are in the company of small dogs. I don't take the nipping lightly but he IS a dog and this is what he does. HE IS NOT AGGRESSIVE in any way, shape, or form. |
| Keep in mind, too, in day care, they're being watched by professionals-- people who know dog behavior and don't freak out if the dogs looks at each other. They know the dogs they have there and understand how their personalities will mesh and can make adjustments for that. It's a lot less of a free for all than the dog park. For that reason, I much prefer day care. Forget the ol' dog park! |
Simon's Mom wrote: I called once to see how things were going(the only time my cell phone worked on top of a mountain), and they said great except that Gar's pads were getting sore(he has tender pads) and they curtailed his day at times.
Why don't you give Amy a call? That ongoing sore pad thing is really not normal. Maybe she'll have some idea what might be going on. Happy to hear the vacation went well for you and the boys. Kristine |
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