Do OES bite?
PS. I know I need to post pictures! I will do that very soon. Ella |
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| All dogs can bite.
Some OES do bite - I think there have been behavioral problems in some lines. The only OES I have known have been my own and none of them would ever seemingly dream of biting a person. |
I have only ever had one problem with mine no actually 2. Once when a older fellow who was drunk came in to fast to pet them and Sami went after him. She was protecting us.(she did this twice to the same person.) And my 2 babies went after a fellow coming into our house at 3AM well we were sleeping and my dogs chased him out and he left the doors open and I was shocked they never went after him. They get an A+ and treats for that. And told my mom she can borrow them when every she wanted.  |
| ANY dog can bite if not given the proper amount of exercise discipline and affection. OES do not bite any more or less than any other breed. |
Congrats on your new puppy, and welcome to the forum. I agree with everyone....OES are no more or less prone to bite than any other canine on the planet. As a herding breed, they are known to nip as pups, but you can easily work through that with many tried and true methods mentioned here on the forum. 
I wonder where your vet asst got her stats? (I know, I know, her friend's sister's ex-brother-in-law got bitten by one 25 years ago.) 
Laurie and Oscar |
| Yup... all dogs can bite. But each dog is an individual and shouldn't be lumped into one stereotype. They have different bite thresholds, even on different days. Just like us they can have an off day.
A lot has to do with the socializing the dog is exposed to, the owner themselves and the handling they've done and the training that goes into the a dog. My four are actually from BYBs or rescue. One of my vets has said several times how easy my girls are to work with. Every one of mine loves people. However, when Panda was leaking urine into her abdominal cavity when bladder sutures failed, she tried to bite the vet. But this dog had suffered and the reaction was due to excruciating pain. This is the same dog another of our vets gets down to greet... and a vet-tech sat on the floor and played with Panda last week (someone asked if she had knocked her over  ).
But I did meet an OES a few summers ago that was very standoffish and aloof... not at all interested in meeting us. This was not what I was expecting based on my own experiences with the breed. Now... we want to see pictures of your new baby!  |
| Your vet was right to warn you. This breed can be very agressive. They need alot of training because they are so stuborn! And I wouldnt trust them around any small children. I talk from experience. |
Anonymous wrote: Your vet was right to warn you. This breed can be very agressive. They need alot of training because they are so stuborn! And I wouldnt trust them around any small children. I talk from experience.
And from experience, many, many people here would disagree, including me. While everybody should always be cautious with children and ALL dogs, I've raised three babies with OES as well as a have a slew of nieces, nephews and friends' babies and children who have never had anything harder than a slobber happen to them - and that includes a total of 6 OES, five being rescues. where's the phlbbbbbt emoticon? |
Quote: Your vet was right to warn you. This breed can be very agressive. They need alot of training because they are so stuborn! And I wouldnt trust them around any small children. I talk from experience.
So how many OESs have you had? Obviously we can only base our opinions on our own knowledge limits. A lot can have to do with the owner themselves and how they raise their dog. Not every dog takes to every form of training method. Then too, as with many breeds, there are also some lines out there that should never be bred... the adults should be spayed/neutered. Each dog is an individual and you have to base it on the individual dog. Stereotypes... jeesh! I'm always amazed at how people hide behind an anonymous post... it's obviously something they wouldn't say under a login ID.  |
6Girls wrote: Each dog is an individual and you have to base it on the individual dog.
Stereotypes... jeesh! I'm always amazed at how people hide behind an anonymous post... it's obviously something they don't have the guts to say under a login ID. My Mom always said, if you can't "own" your words, don't use them!!! |
Quote: My Mom always said, if you can't
"own" your words, don't use them!!! That's a very wise mama. |
| So, basically the vet assistant should warn all dog owners their dogs may bite? The vet office staff did tell me that I was only the second person in over 10 years to bring in an OES, so I know the vet assistant was not speaking from the office's experience with OES. The actual vet said nothing to me about it. I'll just make sure she is trained to be sweet and loving (except for a stranger coming in at 3am!). The assistant may have just wanted me to know how important it was for her to be a well trained dog.
Thanks for the replies! Ella |
Anonymous wrote: Your vet was right to warn you. This breed can be very agressive. They need alot of training because they are so stuborn! And I wouldnt trust them around any small children. I talk from experience.
I'm sure you do talk from experience-- your own obviously limited experience and lack of knowledge of the breed. Saying that there have been reports of OES biting people has seriously got to be one of the stupidest comments that I've heard in a long time. There have been reports of EVERY kind of dog biting people! I'd have loved to have heard about these "reports" from the person that said that to you. It makes me crazy when people just spew stuff like that out. This vet assistant shouldn't be allowed to talk to people. |
| I have only known two sheepdogs. So my sample is too small to be reasonablebut I have met a larger number of them and not seen or heard about them biting, nipping or a warning snap at someone of some thing that is pestering them. But not biting. I've seen Bella lick a toddler that pulled her ear when she tried to use it to stand up and even heard her growell and pull her head away when a 10 year old that tried to poke at her eyes to see if she could see. But never bite.
I don't know what she would do to an intruder at 3AM she does have a loud bark that I've heard at that time in the morning. |
Tasker tried to bite my ex husband once. I thought it was a sign of exceptionally good judgement  |
| We're forever having new sheepie owners come here with reports that their vets or vet techs or groomer or fill-in-the-name-here have told them that OES are aggressive, biters, difficult to handle, etc., only to have them also say that they've only had one or worse yet, never encountered one, they've just "heard" it.
Drives me nuts. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: Tasker tried to bite my ex husband once. I thought it was a sign of exceptionally good judgement
I am going to agree with you Ginny!
My dogs have never bit anyone. My parent's OES, Daisy, did grab someone by their arm and escort them off of our property. It was my next door neighbor, Robert and he was arguing with me. Daisy pushed passed me to get out the door and brought Robert back to his property line, let go of his arm and came back. What a great Big Sister she was!!! |
Quote: We're forever having new sheepie owners come here with reports that their vets or vet techs or groomer or fill-in-the-name-here have told them that OES are aggressive, biters, difficult to handle, etc., only to have them also say that they've only had one or worse yet, never encountered one, they've just "heard" it.
I really have to wonder if all this ignorance and stereotyping was based on a single case where an OES killed his owner's mother... this was in Detroit BACK IN 1985!
http://www.petpublishing.com/dogken/bre ... lish.shtml We all know how that mass-hysteria over a single incident can spread... |
| I think Holly's first OES was related to the killer OES somehow because I remember her telling me this story.
I guess there was more to it as well, like they weren't sure if it was an on purpose killing. I think the story was that the woman, who was pretty large, fell on the dog and trapped him and he was biting because he was freaking out. I know there was a big fight because they didn't want to put that dog down. Maybe Holly'll pipe up. I don't want to butcher the story. |
| On the other hand...
My first trainer's brother had an OES rescue about 40 years ago. the dog bit her all the time. I really think there were problems at one time. I now have a different trainer without conditioned childhood memories |
| In all fairness - the breed has a checkered past in terms of temperament.
My aunt, a die-hard dog person and former groomer was only bitten seriously repeatedly by one dog - an OES. I've talked to any number of groomers, trainers and vets who have first hand experience with the breed going back decades that isn't pretty, so let's not get too defensive here. When my girls' breeder moved from MI to MN eons ago she had a hard time finding a new vet, the breed had such a bad reputation. She finally found a breeder-vet (not OES) who would see her dogs and then expressed shock that they didn't try to take her face off. The shaggy dog movies and the poor quality mass production of the breed that ensued probably has a lot to do with it. But one of the breed's most prolific sires - behind most modern OES at this point regardless of their source reportedly had questionable hips (or at least produced a lot of it) and a bad attitude. We've made great strides in conquering the bad temperaments and some on the hips. The fact that we take such offense at the lingering bad rep thinking it can't possibly be so is kind of encouraging, actually . But if people remember the breed less than fondly, let's try not to assume there was one evil OES wandering the country wreaking havoc on their reputation. 
Fascinating article, Jaci. I don't know about the wobblers, though, unless what he's referring to is actually CA? Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Fascinating article, Jaci. I don't know about the wobblers, though, unless what he's referring to is actually CA?
Kristine SOunds more like some sort of a skeletal problem isn't CA more neurological or am off base there? |
kerry wrote: Mad Dog wrote: Fascinating article, Jaci. I don't know about the wobblers, though, unless what he's referring to is actually CA? Kristine SOunds more like some sort of a skeletal problem isn't CA more neurological or am off base there? No, you're right: CA is absolutely neurological and it doesn't respond to treatment. I'm just wondering if he got his facts wrong or we now have more medical crap to worry about in the breed 
I do think we have some spinal (skeletal) issues - we have a higher rate of spondylosis (spinal arthritis) at younger ages that you see in many other breeds, not atypical of large, tailless dogs - boxers are notorious in this regard - and, at least in our breed, reportedly especially if they are long in the loin. Kristine |
| I think they are actually referring to wobblers aka cervical vertebral instability.
http://www.petplace.com/dogs/choosing-a ... page1.aspx http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/Diseases/muscu ... bblers.htm http://www.chetbacon.com/wobblers.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wobbler_disease http://www.centralpets.com/animals/mamm ... og305.html Sorry for getting on my high horse too 
It's just that it's wrong to generalize an entire group as "bad". |
| i have only been bitten once since i got my oes...and it was by my wife. |
6Girls wrote: I think they are actually referring to wobblers aka cervical vertebral instability.
I know it occurs in OES, but supposedly relatively rarely, yet it comes up on lists of health issues the breed is predisposed to ahead of things we do know have a more widespread prevalence. I just find that odd. Especially the special attention it received in the article. On the flip side I know of at least one OES who was tentatively diagnosed with wobblers who, in retrospect probably had CA, so you kind of wonder what's what, that's all. We can fight the breed predjudice fairly easily - just keep getting our nicely tempered OES out there. I scheduled a private obedience lesson with one of the local OTCH (big shot competetive obedience) trainers a couple of years ago and had to swear upon a stack of bibles that Belle wouldn't try to snack on him or his BC. By the end of the session we had made our point and I doubt he's so quick to judge all OES the same way in the future. Kristine |
tmyslik wrote: i have only been bitten once since i got my oes...and it was by my wife.
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My cat bites me almost daily, yet no one has the good sense to be afraid of HIM. Except me
Kristine |
| I don't deny that OEs have had temperament issues but to say "There have been reports of OES biting people," is silly because it makes it sound as if it doesn't happen in other breeds, like there aren't reports of other breeds biting. It's just crazy talk. |
| Actually as of 2006 the only breed in the US without reported and I stress reported biting of a human was the Italian Spinone. all dogs can and will bite if provoked |
irescueoes wrote: Actually as of 2006 the only breed in the US without reported and I stress reported biting of a human was the Italian Spinone. all dogs can and will bite if provoked
That's only because they have the mob on their side. |
tmyslik wrote: i have only been bitten once since i got my oes...and it was by my wife. Like in the last week? |
| They are Sheepdogs, they're herders, therefore nippers.
I took Chauncey to a new grooming service...bad idea
She definitely had an fear of breed ( 1st thing she mentioned )...and Chauncey has come back looking like he was groomed with a hedge trimmer. The 1-2" cut is kinda, sorta 1-2" in most places. She did not touch his face or top-knot. 4" in some places
The body lenght is pretty much what I wanted....only I wanted it even. She did not trim his face.....he has a Col Sander's beard
She did not touch his top knot area....... Kinda a Duffus the dog look
I have used PetSmart and I have been disappointed that there seems to be a different groomer each time. They are just too quick to shave, but it's the best I've found in this area. I'm buying a grooming table....Hell I could have done this well blind. In fact we are through the coat change and we was wonderful to groom. We worry about our warm/hot summers These guys get a bad rep due to size & energy. |
| Any dog can bite they have teeth, I have teeth and I could well bite someone but I have other ways to protect myself and get my point across. I had two babies with my first OES (puppy mill dog ) and just got back from an elementary school reading program with lots of children. I also have a German Shepherd Dog and she loves kids but sometimes people hold on tight to their little ones when I have her out. OK my point is a nice doggie with a nice owner , that has some sense , most likely will not bite. I see a bite as a bite not a herding nip. I have known a couple of OES that bit (yeah I do rescue) I know of some GSD;s that bit (yep I do rescue) to make a statement that all OES bite is just a little nuts (after this long post I guess I am a little nuts) sigh |
4dognight wrote: Any dog can bite they have teeth, I have teeth and I could well bite someone but I have other ways to protect myself and get my point across. I had two babies with my first OES (puppy mill dog
) and just got back from an elementary school reading program with lots of children. I also have a German Shepherd Dog and she loves kids but sometimes people hold on tight to their little ones when I have her out. OK my point is a nice doggie with a nice owner , that has some sense , most likely will not bite. I see a bite as a bite not a herding nip. I have known a couple of OES that bit (yeah I do rescue) I know of some GSD;s that bit (yep I do rescue) to make a statement that all OES bite is just a little nuts (after this long post I guess I am a little nuts) sighAMEN!!! take a look at my arms legs and forehead! yup my forehead was bitten! ( of course that one had some alchohol and a tarp involved.. long story don't ask LOL ) |
| I've had two OES in my life. My Loki Bear and my very first dog, a sheepie named Pearl. She was 7 years old when my first son was born, and she would lay on the floor when he was a baby and lick him while he pulled her hair and climbed all over her. I would have trusted her with his life - She adored him and knew he needed to be looked after, so she did. It was her sweet nature and gentle spirit that made me, 25 years later, seek out another OES to share my life, and I have not been disappointed. Aggressive? Not in the least, and if ever a dog had cause to be aggressive or snappish, it's Loki. He was rescued from a puppy mill after the owner was arrested and charged with 140 counts of animal neglect.
Love your puppy. Be firm and gentle, correct her when she makes a mistake and show her that there's no need to bite or be fearful. Enjoy her. |
| We've owned three OES and under normal circumstances never had any of them bite. #1 bit someone's foot when they tried to kick him (it was nothing compared to what I did !!). #2 snapped at me when he developed arthritis and I inadvertantly touched a sore spot. #3 snapped at me while I was digging some really nasty, sharp burrs from between the pads of his feet. He warned me that he had had enough so I really provoked him. So yes, they can be made to bite if provoked or if they are in pain. Other than that, all three of ours were big, loveable teddy bears.
As for kids, our first OES loved to sneak into the bedroom, jump into the crib and sleep with our first son. When our son was old enough to walk he led Grizzly around by the ear. Our second sheepdog loved to roam into the park next to our business to play with the kids there. He would even join them in the town pool when he could sneak past the cashier. Our last sheepdog was a senior dog when our grandchildren arrived. He didn't like these little critters crawling up next to him, but he just got up and moved. I was never worried about one of them being bitten. If there are better dogs with children I don't know what they might be. |
| This information according to Wikipedia on the OES temperment:
This breed is intelligent, funny, social, and adaptable which means can live outside and inside, although they sometimes seem to not be all that intelligent on first impressions. It generally gets along well with children, other dogs, other pets, and visitors. Like all herding breeds, it requires plenty of exercise, both mental and physical. They are bubbly and playful, and some times may be stubborn, depending on their mood. Sheepdogs are excellent, intuitive and loving companions, even earning the title "babysitter" or "Dear Nanny" around young children. The herding instinct that has been carried down through the generations is still astonishing. They have been known to not only herd livestock, but also their family members. They will push (not bite or nip) any family member away from dangerous objects and people. These animals are gentle with other dogs and are always willing to play with you. As said in several other comments above, any dog can bite if threatened, afraid, in pain, provoked or protecting its guard (sheep, human family, or even food - resource guarding is a natural canine behavior). Even the most well trained dog can be unpredictable under adverse circumstances. However, from my experiences this breed is great with children AND strangers, and LOVES to be part of the family. The only time she ever growled at a stranger was when a very suspcious man approached us on the street. I don't know if she would have actually bitten, but she was warning enough for him to stay away and I'm glad I had her with me. In general, with proper socialization and behavior training from puppy-hood, you can teach any dog to be good with kids and to not bite when humans reach into the food bowl! I've seen the most loving pit-bulls and rotweilers raised with children who've never bitten a day in their lives despite being known as aggressive dogs. In my opinion environment is more important that genetics - otherwise canines woudn't be pets! |
Why are OES nicknamed "Nanny" if they are so bad with kids. I'm 22 years with OES in the house. Both of my children were raised by the vicious breed.  They left home with all body parts/skin intact. I did notice they picked up a few bad OES habits, like leaning on someone when the want them to change direction.
Most dog breeds have had spans of time where popularity led to poor breeding to meet demand. I've never met a mean OES. But with the right person in charge, any dog can be ruined. |
| "......although they sometimes seem to not be all that intelligent on first impressions"
I read years ago that sheepdogs are not intelligent. That is positively wrong. My wife and I sat one evening and ran down the list of words that our first sheepdog could understand. It totaled 70. All three of our OES learned my routines in short order. Our last sheepdog stood up as soon as I reached for my aftershave. He knew that the next thing I did every morning after putting on aftershave was to head downstairs. We had neighbors over for Thanksgiving dinner some years ago. They were amazed to see how our sheepdog would tug hard enough on a stick to pull me out of a chair while he tugged gently when one of the children present picked up the stick. Our last OES learned to answer 'yes' by a quick lick of his nose. If time is spent with a sheepdog (and what better way to spend time) they learn quickly and easily. All three of ours were smarter (certainly more percept) than a lot of humans I've known.[/quote] |
| I agree that they are very intelligent dogs...that's why they can be difficult to train sometimes because they need to be challenged so much! Also difficult to train because they're so stubborn! Definitely smart though. I can actually see my OES problem solve certain situations to get a desired result...its very interesting.
I think they may "appear unitelligent on first impressions" because they act so goofy and appear aloof. They are like bubbly, fuzzy tedde bears and mine anyway is a very "floppy" dog and a bit on the clumsy side. And when they turn their head to the side when you talk to them, it looks like they're saying, "huh? I don't get it. huh? are you talking to me? huh? huh? huh?" Plus you can't see their eyes so you don't see the intelliegence that lies beneath! They don't "look" smart, but they are! |
| Please don't cite WikiPedia (I call it WikiPeeingYa) as an authoritarian source about sheepdogs (or anything else, for that matter).
WikiPedia allegedly allows NO "Original Work," and claims that all materials need citations to the original work. You should cite and quote from and link to the original. If there are no citations, then at a minimum the article breaks WP's own rules. ANYONE can edit the info in WikiPeeingYa. Frequently people's personal pets show up as "famous sheepdogs" on that page. |
| When I began taking Pearl to obiendence classes many years ago,
I was told by a respected trainer that if an Old English Sheepdog does bite...it is more from fear than aggression and here are a couple of reasons: Bad breeding (BYB/ Puppy Mills) Not being socialized People see an OES...they look like the stuffed animal they had as a kid...they somehow don't realiza there is a dog under all the hair. Since they cannot see the eyes (you can tell alot from looking at a dogs eyes....) ...no tail to tell if the dog is scared (scared dogs will hold their tail between their legs)...they ASSUME this fluffy, wigglebum is going to LOVE them. People tend to approach these dogs and "swoop"down with a sort of bear-hug..."ohhhhh...you are soo fluffy and cute" as opposed to a more respected, hesitation. That is why, when a stranger comes up to me and one of my OES's, I gently take her head, hand over or under her muzzle, very lightly, with her face pointing toward me-- as a way of showing her that I am here, all is OK...and then, when the pets begin, before I know it, my sheepie is rubbing up against the stranger, ready to go home with them.... |
| Shortly after we got our first OES 30 some years ago we took him to the vet for a check up. The vet advised us to keep the hair trimmed away from his eyes as that had led to biting problems with other OES he had worked with. He wore glasses and explained that if he were painting his house and had paint smeared over his glasses that he would be very nervous if he then went to drive his car. He advised that when a stranger reaches for an OES that has restricted sight due to hair over his eyes he may bite out of fear.
I don't know whether or not he was correct but we have always kept the hair trimmed away from our OES's eyes; if nothing else, they don't seem to run into as many objects. Besides, it allows us to see those big, beautiful, intelligent eyes. |
Quote: Your vet was right to warn you. This breed can be very agressive. They need alot of training because they are so stuborn! And I wouldnt trust them around any small children. I talk from experience.
I disagree. ANY breed can produce dogs that bite. I currently have 2 OES, and run a home daycare as well as having my own children in the home. It takes common sense, training your dog AND kids well. In the 6 years that there have OES' in the house, no one has gotten bit. God help the stranger that tries to get into the backyard with the kids, though! Cooper actually separated my yongest from his grandfather when he thought that Grandpa was hurting him. |
| trying not to get too off topic from the original thread, but Ron's comment about where NOT to get information on OES (i.e. Wikipedia ) made me think: where is the best place to go for accurate information on behavior, breed, etc when you have a specific question?
When I first got my sheepie I had TONS of questions, and I googled "OES" and this site was the first one that popped up. I came here and found the information posted VERY helpful. I've found a few other "sheepdog info" websites out there, but what are the best, most respectable sites for breed information? I assume the AKC site and OES club of America have good resources, but it seems like those big site only have info on the breed standard for physical traits. I don't find alot on tempermet and behavior. It would be helpful to hear what experts have to say (although you show people are pretty good experts as far as I'm concerned - I learned that at the Harrisburg Grooming Event of 2008) Although it is obvious that many of the long-time posters on this forum know what they are talking about, in general I think its a good idea to take the opinions posted on this site for face value, they are only opnions. People who come here to find answers to very serious questions like, "Do OES bite?" should consider that when they make decisions about their dog/family based on opinions posted on a public forum, espcially when people like me use info found on wikipedia to support arguments |
I don't think there's any debate at all about where the best info about OES is housed on the web! 
Ya just gotta come here and search or ask. Remember, the "best info" will always include many different opinions! |
Quote: Although it is obvious that many of the long-time posters on this forum know what they are talking about, in general I think its a good idea to take the opinions posted on this site for face value, they are only opnions...
Although it is obvious that many of the long-time posters on this forum know what they are talking about, in general I think its a good idea to take the opinions posted on this site for face value, they are only opnions. People who come here to find answers to very serious questions like, "Do OES bite?" should consider that when they make decisions about their dog/family based on opinions posted on a public forum, espcially when people like me use info found on wikipedia to support arguments Not everything on Wikipedia is baloney... Just like many opinions may be based on only very limited knowledge or based on an unusual "case" that can skew an opinion. The more experience someone has with a subject, the more accurate the information shared... unless they have an agenda. So we each have to weigh what is being said/shared and see if it makes sense to us... and consider the source and do further research. |
Quote: People tend to approach these dogs and "swoop"down with a sort of bear-hug..."ohhhhh...you are soo fluffy and cute" as opposed to a more respected, hesitation. Be prepared if you have an OES pup: this happens SO much - it's not always a good thing, I can actually see how a bite could occur. When I take Fitzwilliam for a walk, we're often swarmed by moms with their strollers and toddlers, the moms excitedly encouraging the toddlers to pet my cute, fluffy, friendly-looking OES. But Fitzwilliam does not appreciate the excited attention, it scares him. I don't think he'd bite the kids - oddly, most of the kids themselves seem to instinctively know when to take it down a notch - but I just might start biting the moms!  Quote: That is why, when a stranger comes up to me and one of my OES's, I gently take her head, hand over or under her muzzle, very lightly, with her face pointing toward me-- as a way of showing her that I am here, all is OK...and then, when the pets begin, before I know it, my sheepie is rubbing up against the stranger, ready to go home with them....
Cool - good advice! |
Quote: Be prepared if you have an OES pup: this happens SO much - it's not always a good thing, I can actually see how a bite could occur.
So true... it seems to happen A LOT with this breed. A friend gave me a set of "Pet Me Not Leash Tags" for my not-so-social Schipperke-mix- http://www.poochie-pets.net/Pet-Me-Not.html I'm not sure if they're still available or not... |
| Archie used to nip a fair bit as a pup, I can't put it down to anyone thing why he doesn't do it so much anymore apart from when me and him rough and tumble, then I tend to check him with an over exagerated OOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW! NO! and hold the part that he bit. He tends to react as if very sorry, he still is a very mouthy 8 1/2 month old and I happily let him nibble on my fingers and thumb, but being very wary of his rear teeth, he has plenty of chew toys and socialises a fair bit with a wide variety of other dogs on his daily walks, if he gets to much the older grumpier dogs tend to put him in his place, with people who have dogs restrained and people without dogs I always put Archie back on his lead, and caution him before hand to behave himself and then praise him afterwards for doing so.
It may all sound a bit contrived to some owners but archie is my first dog and I am doing my utmost to try and encourage him to behave. At 6'2" I do have the abilty to chastise him firmly mainly to the sound on my voice and my stance without being cruel to him. So far all things being said Archie has given us an easy time of it, maybe another OES puppy would have been completely different - but remember it is supposed to be us in charge. Maybe I'll be back on here in a few months pleeing for help when he has turned into a teenage delinquent?
Don't forget dogs probably can be as different as humans even within a single breed, like humans they probably just crave love and attention, unfortunately being animals they may express themselves through their teeth! |
6Girls wrote: Not everything on Wikipedia is baloney... "The problem" with WikiPedia is that people perceive it to be authoritarian, probably because the name is similar to specific, fact-checked truly authoritarian works called "encyclopedia."
So we each have to weigh what is being said/shared and see if it makes sense to us... and consider the source and do further research. I have read MANY articles on that site that state in very matter-of-fact ways completely erroneous information. Only someone with intimate knowledge of the subject or someone researching the subject in depth would be able to know that the information presented was erroneous. You can NOT trust WikiPeeingYa for anything. It may be a good jumping off point to help you find some basic ideas for where to look for information, but you must read through to the citations or you should ignore the information. You MUST have another source, preferably multiple credentialed sources. |
Quote: You can NOT trust WikiPeeingYa for anything.
It's the same as opinions expressed... you have to try to figure out if its based on simply guesses, personal experiences (and how experienced the one sharing the info actually is) or facts as they are currently known (how many "facts" change 6 months later?)... and whether there is a personal agenda. So agreed... about Wikipedia and other sources... we each are responsible for researching information in order to get closest to the actual truth. |
| Max would invite a robber in for tea.....
We are very lucky that he has never even nipped. He barely barks. A friend of ours has an OES and she is fiesty! Bites and barks all the time. Different dogs, different breeders- differnet enviroments. All play a part in the personality of ANY dog. |
rdf wrote: Anonymous wrote: Your vet was right to warn you. This breed can be very agressive. They need alot of training because they are so stuborn! And I wouldnt trust them around any small children. I talk from experience. And from experience, many, many people here would disagree, including me. While everybody should always be cautious with children and ALL dogs, I've raised three babies with OES as well as a have a slew of nieces, nephews and friends' babies and children who have never had anything harder than a slobber happen to them - and that includes a total of 6 OES, five being rescues. where's the phlbbbbbt emoticon? I have just bought my third OES and have 6 children whom have all grown up with OES. Even when my children were learning to walk and used the dogs to steady themselves I never worried about any of my dogs biting. I think dogs do as there owners do and teach so I think that maybe anonymous should go for a very different type of pet or maybe a different vet who knows what there talking about. All dogs have the ability to bite but with proper love and training they will not !!!!! |
| Actually, there is always reason to beware of dog bites, no matter how steady the dog is. I'm not talking about playful nips or puppy teething--but real bites. A few true things about Merlin, our first OES whom we got when our youngest was 4 years old:
When Merlin was about a year and a half, and had most of his size (so, he was 90+ lbs---he was a BIG OES), he and I were playing outside, and I was pulling weeds from the lawn, so I was sitting down, in between chasing, kickng a soccer ball, etc. Merlin playfully comes comes up behind me and grabs me (gently!!!!) by the back of the head. Yep, his mouth was big enough to carry a soccer ball, or it turns out, my head. No injury intended nor did it occur and I immediately said NO and the incident was never, ever even remotely repeated. But I never forgot. Merlin was contrite and obviously meant no harm--Let's face it, our OES are big animals and could kill us all in our sleep if they wanted to. Bu they do not. When my daughter was about 5 and a half or 6--Merlin was by now full grown, my father visited with the woman he later married. Dad had met Merlin many times, and my daughter had met Dad's friend before, but Merlin had never met Charlene. My daughter came running into the room right after our guests arrived and literally flung herself on Charline who had her arms open to hug her. Merlin was right there, and took Charline's arm in his mouth in such a way that her arm was fully in his mouth and he was not pressing her arm in any way--just confining it to prevent potential harm to his little girl. Charlene is terrified of dogs and this was the first time she met my bruiser. However, I was right there, and it was all ok. I called Merlin off, and he immediately dropped her arm--no pinched or broken skin and Charlene, although afraid of dogs, knew that Merlin was only protecting his little girl. Without, btw, causing any real harm. Merlin and Charline became good friends immediately as he realized she was part of the family. When my oldest son was about 19 or 20, one of his friends was over and the guys were horsing around the way that guys do. Now, Merlin knew and adored all of my kids friends, but especially my oldest son's friends because the guys would take him to play soccer. Merlin even recognized their cars when we were out on walks. But my son's friend John had Nathaniel in a head lock, the way guys do, and I heard the guys call out to me from anothe room: Merlin had taken John's rear end into his mouth and was holding John--just holding him. John immediately got the picture and let go my son. No tear in the pants, and John swore no broken skin or bruise, but the guys were very careful about horseplay around the dog after. Merlin still loved John very much. BTW, my son told me that several of his friends, including John, cried when he told them that Merlin had passed away, years after they were all on their own. Merlin cheerfully allowed toddlers to pull on his hair, clamber over him, and even looked very patient and just sighed when a friend's small child rode her new tricycle over his front paw and stopped with the wheel on his foot--until I gently moved her off. But Merlin had very definite expectations for behavior from children and other people, based upon his (accurate, imo) opinion of their ability to behave decently towards dogs. If a child was behaving towards him in a way that Merlin thought was inappropriate, Merlin would walk away if he could. My youngest child and only daughter had begged to walk Merlin by herself for a long time and when she was about 10, we agreed. She had walked him many times with one of her older brothers or parents, Merlin would obey basic commands when given by my daughter and was generally well mannered. Merlin was good on a leash and old enough to have decent impulse control. We weren't worried he'd see a squirrel across the street and pull our daughter down. He outweighed her still, and of course, pound for pound, dogs are far stronger than humans. She was instructed NOT to take him to the school yard: too many kids played there after school and we didnt' want her to have to deal with too many kids mobbing Merlin. It was a short walk route, in our neighborhood. Of course, she disobeyed and headed straight towards the school yard. A few of the kids she knew of course came over to pet Merlin. One was a boy who had an unfortunate set of circumstances and had recently been placed into the foster care of his aunt and uncle by the court system. He grabbed Merlin by the ears and began to shake his head back and forth. Emily told him to stop that, and Merlin gave a warning growl but the kid persisted. Merlin snapped at him. Both the investigating police officer who saw the wound and even the foster mom (after she calmed down) agreed that no skin would have likely been broken if the kid hadn't jerked his hand away in (justifiable) fear. The kid had been under a lot of stress and wasn't used to being around dogs. Also wasn't the kind of kid who was going to listen to any other kid about anything. Foster mom/aunt took the kid to the ER for a tetanus booster since his vaccination record wasn't clear and the docs were mandated to report the bite. Merlin should not have snapped, I absolutely agree. But Emily was upset with the boy, and Merlin hated having his head grabbed and shaken by the ears--as would any one, canine or human. And as soon as my daughter got home, minutes after the bite, I called the foster family to assure them that Merlin was up to date on all his shots, gave them our vet's phone number and our phone number and address. They told us that the boy required no other treatment, that the wound was slight but that the police had been informed. The investigating officer assured us that the bite was only a tiny tear with slightly broken skin. Both the officer and later the foster mom felt she had over reacted a bit, but I assured them I understood and of course, the kid needed a tetanus booster. I offered to pay; she declined. Merlin was on house arrest for a few weeks and I missed my oldest son's college soccer game on parent's weekend because I either had to board my dog for 2 weeks or an adult had to stay with him/walk him 24/7. And Merlin had a record. The kid, btw, turned out to be quite a decent person. He and my daughter are now peripherally friends and there are no hard feelings all around. We were very lucky: this could have been so much worse. We always regarded Merlin as rock-solid. He was excellent with my mother, who had suffered a stroke years before and had limited eyesight, cognitive impairment and an unsteady gait due to slight paralysis and poor balance. Merlin was terrific with her: always moved well out of Mom's way when she was walking, would play tug very gently with her, would lay by her for hours, being petted. Never barked or jumped or showed any exciteable behavior, even when he was a young, exciteable adolescent. Merlin was also terrific with several neighbors who lived in a nearby group home for developmentally disabled adults and people in walkers or wheel chairs. But there was some behavior Merlin would not accept. And I am certain that if anyone had ever tried to actually harm any of our children, Merlin would have defended them to the death if he had to. |
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