We're Having Aggression Issues....
Luna, the smarter and cuter half of Tonks and Luna, has an aggression problem. When I brought it up to our first trainer, when the girls were only 12 weeks old, she said I just didn't recognize "puppy play". I wish I knew where she lived, so I could punch her in the face. At 12 weeks old, we could have totally fixed this. Now they are 6 months old, and 50 pounds each. And when they fight? Well it brutal. Adam has been bitten twice trying to break them up. I was bitten once. We are both afraid to approach her; we've no idea what will set her off. And we approach her anyway; I know I can't show fear to my dogs or I'll lose the Alpha postion. But I don't think Luna cares. I've had her in 2 obedience training sessions, 6 weeks long each. I've had the second trainer to the house for one on one training, and neither has made any difference. So we have two options left. A behaviorist; guy with a PhD in animal psychology that teaches it at a university here in GA and writes books on the subject. But he wants to do a 2-hour in house visit, and then ahve 6 weeks ov follow up over the telephone. It just doesn't sound "hands on" enough for me. My second option is a trainer that does aggression specific training; she has a dog camp for really bad cases. But she also doesn't seem capable of answering my emails. I will be calling her in the morning. And if those options don't work; if either of these people reply to my inquiries, meet the dogs and decide they can't help? The vet says that Luna has to be re-homed, or worse... PLEASE say a prayer for my little family. We need it right now. I need my sweet, sweet puppy to be sweet again. Getting these dogs was the fullfilment of a life-long dream for me. It's on the verge of becoming a nightmare. Thanks for letting me vent. This has really become such a huge emotional burden. BUT! I'm still very hopeful; and I'm not entirely out of options. I look forward to writing you all to tell you that our problem has been fixed. |
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| you know this had happen to a doctor in my town that had 2 huskys. Came from the same litter. No matter what they did the same as what you said, they did rehome one of them in town here. He said even if they walk past the other one they rehome she charges the fence. He had to rehome one because he was afaird of one getting killed or famliy he hads 3 young kids. Sad but I have heard of this happpening with same litters but not always? |
| its so strange though... they get along 99% of the time. And "get along" doesn't even begin to cover it. They are so sweet together and cute and affectionate to one another. At Doggie Day care they are inseperable. Att he dog park, when we walk in the woods, they are so happy to be with one another, running back and forth to each other.
And then they fight. And its vicious. |
| I don't have any advice but I share the same experience...
I have three dogs, Clayden the sheepie mix and the other two are husky mix and st.bernard/retriever mix. They are both girls. Apparently not from the same litter but they are just a few months apart. They also arrived our home one week after the other. These two girls are very sweet to each other 99% of time. The husky mix would groom the retriever mix affectionately. They play together, sleep close to each other. If I take one away (like vet visit or something) the other would be very worried. BUT...when they fight, its like they really want to kill each other. It happened a few times already. It was never fighting for food, fighting for toy. It was when someone walk pass our gate, they both went beserk, barking their head off and somehow escalated to barking at each other and the fight started. The strange thing is that once I broke up the fight, its like they suddenly snapped out of it. Normally after breaking up a fight, I separate them. They would whined and pleaded to see each other and once they did, its all licking, kissing! I still don't know how to completely prevent this but I learned to be ready to break up a fight. I have a high pressure water hose set up in the backyard ready for breaking up a fight. I also have an air horn inside the house, in case it happens indoor. I bought a small air blast and carry it around my neck when I let the dogs out to play. Both dogs are very submissive to me. I think (and hope) it is just because their age of around 1 year old...being teenager, they are trying to assert their rank. I think perhaps you might want to consider doing extra session of one on one with Luna, to re-inforce that the leader of the pack is you and there is no point for them to fight for it. I had joked about it saying two teenager bitches in the house, I should have expected that 
Come to think of it, I remember how I was with my 18 months older sister when we were teenager. We fought and made up and fought again and then made up and fought some more.... I feel so sorry for my mother. I feel ya... |
| thats EXACTLY how my girls are! If I seperate them, they cry to be together. One minute Luna wants to kill Tonks, and he next they are cuddling!!!!
My bigger concern is that the behavior has grown beyond just being focused on Tonks. Luna has begun growling at me, at Adam, at our two friends (whom they've known since the day we picked them from their litters)... Luna even growls at an empty room. She growls at artwork on the walls, until I get a sheet and cover them. And now Tonks is learning the behavior. 
Gigi wrote: I don't have any advice but I share the same experience... I have three dogs, Clayden the sheepie mix and the other two are husky mix and st.bernard/retriever mix. They are both girls. Apparently not from the same litter but they are just a few months apart. They also arrived our home one week after the other. These two girls are very sweet to each other 99% of time. The husky mix would groom the retriever mix affectionately. They play together, sleep close to each other. If I take one away (like vet visit or something) the other would be very worried. BUT...when they fight, its like they really want to kill each other. It happened a few times already. It was never fighting for food, fighting for toy. It was when someone walk pass our gate, they both went beserk, barking their head off and somehow escalated to barking at each other and the fight started. The strange thing is that once I broke up the fight, its like they suddenly snapped out of it. Normally after breaking up a fight, I separate them. They would whined and pleaded to see each other and once they did, its all licking, kissing! I still don't know how to completely prevent this but I learned to be ready to break up a fight. I have a high pressure water hose set up in the backyard ready for breaking up a fight. I also have an air horn inside the house, in case it happens indoor. I bought a small air blast and carry it around my neck when I let the dogs out to play. Both dogs are very submissive to me. I think (and hope) it is just because their age of around 1 year old...being teenager, they are trying to assert their rank. I think perhaps you might want to consider doing extra session of one on one with Luna, to re-inforce that the leader of the pack is you and there is no point for them to fight for it. I had joked about it saying two teenager bitches in the house, I should have expected that Come to think of it, I remember how I was with my 18 months older sister when we were teenager. We fought and made up and fought again and then made up and fought some more.... I feel so sorry for my mother. I feel ya... |
| I wonder if she is having some type of vision problems?
I've gone through those scarey fights with China/Violet. It is very scarey, but I don't get in the middle of it. If I get hurt, how can I help the othe dog? My hubby has put himself in the middle and he has been lucky and has not gotten hurt yet. I really don't think it has anything ot do with Alpha at all. For whatever reason the other dog gets "set off". It has not happened in a long time here, but I used to keep a can with coins in it and as soon as it would start I would shake the can and it caught their attention...of course the whole time I am telling Violet to stop...she is the instagator...hence the nickname Violator. Gigi gave you some great advise with the "noise" makers. Good luck...do what you have to do. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: its so strange though... they get along 99% of the time. And "get along" doesn't even begin to cover it. They are so sweet together and cute and affectionate to one another. At Doggie Day care they are inseperable. Att he dog park, when we walk in the woods, they are so happy to be with one another, running back and forth to each other.
And then they fight. And its vicious. Been there done that. Marley and Morgan are not littermates but only 6 weeks apart in age. During their teenaged months (seemed longer at the time) they could go off at the blink of an eye and it was awful. 1) don't panic or despair 2) don't assume your dog is aggressive 3) learn the triggers - ours were food and one spot on the living room for that Marley thought she owned 4) don't leave them alone together until you know all the triggers. I feed the dogs seperately - or I stand between them saying be nice. I worked more obedience and now when I say enough - they can be growling and snapping and they stop. And I have said it before - get control unleashed and look for a CU trainer in your area - it is amazing how it will work with reactive dogs- which it seems is more your issue IMHO ALso first - a full medical work up to ensure there are no physical issues or thyroid problems. |
| There seem to be alot of triggers. It has been suggested to us that she is "asset guarding". Food used to trigger it. But I moved thier bowls further apart, and spent weeks feeding them while standing in between thier bowls. I can now leave the kitchen and nothing happens. So she is responding positively to some corrective measures.
But among the assets she is being "triggered by" is affection from Adam and myself. If she is being pet and Tonks naturally walks up to get pet too, she'll go off. This was one of the instances Adam was bitten in. He was sitting on the floor between them petting and loving on both, and Luna just "went off" and started fighting on top of him! So if we are working together in our studio, and Adam pets one, I'll instinctively now reach for the other, so theres no quarrels. But Adam and I aren't always within arm's reach of each other.... And then there are times when Luna just sits in an empty room and growls at nothing. That I have no idea what to do about. Or she'll growl at a painting of a person on the wall. Or a Wig on a mannican head. kerry wrote: Darth Snuggle wrote: its so strange though... they get along 99% of the time. And "get along" doesn't even begin to cover it. They are so sweet together and cute and affectionate to one another. At Doggie Day care they are inseperable. Att he dog park, when we walk in the woods, they are so happy to be with one another, running back and forth to each other. And then they fight. And its vicious. Been there done that. Marley and Morgan are not littermates but only 6 weeks apart in age. During their teenaged months (seemed longer at the time) they could go off at the blink of an eye and it was awful. 1) don't panic or despair 2) don't assume your dog is aggressive 3) learn the triggers - ours were food and one spot on the living room for that Marley thought she owned 4) don't leave them alone together until you know all the triggers. I feed the dogs seperately - or I stand between them saying be nice. I worked more obedience and now when I say enough - they can be growling and snapping and they stop. And I have said it before - get control unleashed and look for a CU trainer in your area - it is amazing how it will work with reactive dogs- which it seems is more your issue IMHO ALso first - a full medical work up to ensure there are no physical issues or thyroid problems. |
Quote: Both dogs are very submissive to me. I think (and hope) it is just because their age of around 1 year old...being teenager, they are trying to assert their rank.
Ah... the joys of "coming of age". We had a problem with Kaytee when she was a year old. The bossy little brat anyway... she would jump on the other girls backs and bite them. Around this time we had also brought in Panda... she and Meesha would go at it. The trainer we used had experience with aggressive dogs and we learned to step in before a fight could occur and to avoid situations that caused fights. We had to constantly supervise... stepping in between them and sending them in different directions. One trick we learned through experiencing these confrontations is that moving furniture into them almost always diffused a fight. You stand behind the chair and push it toward them... you DON'T simply forcefully push it across the floor you you'll hurt them). You probably need wood or tile floors though. Just the motion of a big chair moving toward them usually sent them in opposite directions. Another was that Kaytee is not allowed to go outside with Emma and Darby. Panda, Maggie and Meesha are fine because they can handle themselves but Emma and Darby are much more submissive. We had a scuffle a few months ago and Kaytee got a puncture wound on the ear flap- http://oesusa.com/KayteeBabushka.jpg http://oesusa.com/KayteeBabushkaMookie2.jpg Kaytee can occasionally be set off by sounds. We were getting ready to run a errand and I had moved the dehumidifier... the excitement and the sound set Kaytee off and she went after Emma. Meesha can be set off by the sound of confrontation... she came in and got after Kaytee. Of course it took place in the narrow hallway. What a trip that was. Thank goodness it seldom occurs anymore.
When the dogs are at daycare, they are off their home turf so they stick together... probably fewer problems between the two of them. When you bring them back into the home, they may again be trying to get top dog position. Growling in an empty room is not a good sign. Meesha growls all the time but it's to keep others out of her personal space... though these warning growls drive me nuts at times, they serve a definite purpose... it also lets Kaytee know exactly where she is so she can avoid her. Personally, I'd bring in behaviorist... you have some escalating problems to address that may result in one of your dogs being rehomed so you're reaching the end of your rope. Best wishes~ |
I would definitely look for a certified trainer - and interview them over the phone first (don't ask for solutions they hate that) but talk (opr email) about their theories. SHe sounds like she may be a sensitive girl and need some time out from stress (and anyone with sisters knows they can cause stress  )
Believe me my house is very peaceful now - even with the new puppy because I learned to recognize when Marley is stressed and we move her into a positive situation. If I were better about doing the relaxation protocols etc it would be better but I tihink we have found a balance we can live with. |
Quote: If she is being pet and Tonks naturally walks up to get pet too, she'll go off. This was one of the instances Adam was bitten in. He was sitting on the floor between them petting and loving on both, and Luna just "went off" and started fighting on top of him! So if we are working together in our studio, and Adam pets one, I'll instinctively now reach for the other, so theres no quarrels.
Pet one dog only until another starts to head your way. Then stand up or turn away so NO one gets attention. There is nothing to fight for this way. As for feeding... if you always supervise feeding times, you can prevent all future challenges. This way they look to you to prevent a problem rather than having to handle it themselves. And pick up the bowls when they're empty. Code: And then there are times when Luna just sits in an empty room and growls at nothing. That I have no idea what to do about. Or she'll growl at a painting of a person on the wall. Or a Wig on a mannican head.
I think she needs to be seen by a behaviorist. Have you tried to distract her with a toy or something or have you told her to "leave it"? Just wondering if you could snap her out of her growly behavior. |
6Girls wrote: I think she needs to be seen by a behaviorist. Have you tried to distract
her with a toy or something or have you told her to "leave it"? Just wondering if you could snap her out of her growly behavior. "Leave it" seemed to work in the begining. Its one of their better responded to commands. But now, not so much. |
I'm sorry to hear about Luna. 
Have you discussed this with your vet, as there might be a medical component to Luna's problem? There are a few medical conditions that can contribute to an unexpected rise in aggression, including hypothyroidism, encephalitis, hypoglycemia and epilepsy. We will be sending positive vibes your way. Laurie and Oscar |
| I have to wonder at their ages if you have spayed them yet? If not, the excess hormones at this age can be part of the problem. Nigel was starting to challenge Bella's authority at around 8 months...so I had him neutered. I haven't had one single incident since. It seemed to solve my problem. It certainly would be a smart suggestion with two "bitches". |
6Girls wrote: Quote: If she is being pet and Tonks naturally walks up to get pet too, she'll go off. This was one of the instances Adam was bitten in. He was sitting on the floor between them petting and loving on both, and Luna just "went off" and started fighting on top of him! So if we are working together in our studio, and Adam pets one, I'll instinctively now reach for the other, so theres no quarrels. Pet one dog only until another starts to head your way. Then stand up or turn away so NO one gets attention. There is nothing to fight for this way. As for feeding... if you always supervise feeding times, you can prevent all future challenges. This way they look to you to prevent a problem rather than having to handle it themselves. And pick up the bowls when they're empty. Code: And then there are times when Luna just sits in an empty room and growls at nothing. That I have no idea what to do about. Or she'll growl at a painting of a person on the wall. Or a Wig on a mannican head. I think she needs to be seen by a behaviorist. Have you tried to distract her with a toy or something or have you told her to "leave it"? Just wondering if you could snap her out of her growly behavior. I think Jaci gave you some excellent advice. This doesn't sound like normal coming of age fighting or even food or attention triggered aggression. If she's sitting in an empty room growling at nothing, that's something that really requires the assistance of a behavorist right after being absolutely sure she has no medical issues that could be contributing, like thyroid or even neurological problems. The growling at nothing sounds like it could even be a seizure. |
wendy58 wrote: I have to wonder at their ages if you have spayed them yet? If not, the excess hormones at this age can be part of the problem. Nigel was starting to challenge Bella's authority at around 8 months...so I had him neutered. I haven't had one single incident since. It seemed to solve my problem. It certainly would be a smart suggestion with two "bitches".
nope; Spayed 2 weeks ago. And the behavior has been around in one form or another since about the 3 - 4 months of age. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: wendy58 wrote: I have to wonder at their ages if you have spayed them yet? If not, the excess hormones at this age can be part of the problem. Nigel was starting to challenge Bella's authority at around 8 months...so I had him neutered. I haven't had one single incident since. It seemed to solve my problem. It certainly would be a smart suggestion with two "bitches". nope; Spayed 2 weeks ago. And the behavior has been around in one form or another since about the 3 - 4 months of age. Actually from what I have researched there is no correlation between agression and spaying or not in a female dog. |
| You don't know how sorry I am to hear this! The very first thing I would do is take Luna to the Vet for a full check up and let them know what is going on. The sitting in a room and growling at nothing is something. You just have to find out what it is. The next is look for signs that something is about to happen eg a fight. The signs are there...usually. One look... ear perked... something that says a fight is about to happen. Next go to a boat supply store and get a few airhorns. Keep them handy and if a fight does occur, one blast from the airhorn and its sure to get them out of the fight mode. Next is to see someone who can handle this and get a hold on it. It sounds like they are fighting for top dog.
I know its scary, I've seen it happen with my two males just once and it scared the pants off me. A lot of good advice is given here and hopefully something will work for you. My prayers are with you as you go down this rough path. |
| I am sorry that you are having a difficult time. I can't offer any advice because it sounds like you already have professionals involved.
I have always heard that it is not a good idea to have two puppies from the same litter, or two puppies at the same time for that matter. I don't know if it would have made a difference in your case but it certainly must be difficult to raise and train two young ones at the same stage of developement at the same time. I hope you are able to get a handle on the behavior! |
| I had wondered about epilepsy too... it's a bit different in the description they give here but maybe there are varying degrees of this condition- http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-ang ... _focal.htm
Quote: And then there are times when Luna just sits in an empty room and growls at nothing. That I have no idea what to do about. Or she'll growl at a painting of a person on the wall. Or a Wig on a mannican head.
Is it one particular room where she growls... or is it any room? Just wondering if she's hearing something that you might not be picking up on. Have you tried taking the wig down so she can see and smell it so she can learn it's no big deal... then let her watch you put it back in it's spot? The same with whatever may be bothering her? Maybe ask if this can be a vaccination reaction? Did she test negative for MDR-1 gene? Have you spoken with the breeder to see if any of the pups they've had a hand in creating has ever shown this behavior before? Or do you know of others who have littermates that you can speak with? |
6Girls wrote: Is it one particular room where she growls... or is it any room? its any room. The other day we went out to have lunch at a sidewalk cafe. She was REALLY well behaved, just sat next tot he table, loose leashed the whole time... until shortly before it became time to leave. There was a brick wall behind us and she just began to bark at it. I thought myabe she was hearing people behind the wall, but we walker her all around it, and she was fine. Until we got back, and she began to bark at one spot on it again... 6Girls wrote: Just wondering if she's hearing something that you might not be picking up on. Have you tried taking the wig down so she can see and smell it so she can learn it's no big deal... then let her watch you put it back in it's spot? The same with whatever may be bothering her? We did this at the time, with no results. We had to put a towel over it. 6Girls wrote: Maybe ask if this can be a vaccination reaction? Did she test negative for MDR-1 gene? I had her tested; she is negative on the MDR-1 6Girls wrote: Have you spoken with the breeder to see if any of the pups they've had a hand in creating has ever shown this behavior before? Or do you know of others who have littermates that you can speak with?
Negative on both accounts. Immediately after getting the girls the breeder stopped answering my emails and calls. I get the impression she was happy to have my money and that was it. |
| So I met with the aggression specific trainer yesterday; it was very enlightening. She was able to walk in the room, and just from the way my girls greeted her, identify Luna from Tonks!
We are going to try going forward with e-colors. They are medical grade electrical pulse collars. Its a "tens unit"; the same sort of device a chiropractor would use for muscle stimulation. Rather than shock, they create a mild spasm in the muscle. Both Adam and I had it done on our hands before we'd ever let the device be put on the dogs. Adam (bless him) asked her to keep turning up the "severity" of the pulse until he couldn't take it. He said he wasn't willing to do it to the dog unless he knew what it was doing. He tolerated it well past the level the dogs will be using it, causing his whole arm to jerk. But it wasn't painful. So I'm glad for that. This is how it was explained to me; its not corrective or used as punishment. The collar is used in conjunction with commands; you tell your dog to sit at the same time that you giv them a pulse. Its like tapping them on the shoulder. In the begining, it will be annoying, and they dog wil be inclined to fight it. The trainer says she expects Tonks to fall right in line; she has a very people pleasing nature. So in Tonk's case, I'm very excited. She's very distracted during training, and it has been a slow road of learning. Luna however, is where our problems will Lie. We have been warned that she is really vying for that dominant postion, not only over Tonks, but us as well. So for us to suddenly have the upper hand through the collar will not be pleasing to her. She will act like its killing her. She will whine and beg rather than comply with our commands. She will try and manipulate us to get us to stop. And when that doesn't work (which it won't, I'm promising myself I won't fold) she will up her aggression levels. At first it will get worse towards Tonks, and then if that gets her no desired results, it maybe even turn towards us, which she has yet to do. We've been warned that for 2 - 4 weeks (no real telling how long, we're just hoping that will be our range) it will get worse before it gets better. We are hoping for the shorter time range, as 3 weeks takes us into Sheepie Palooza.... However; our end results will be dogs that are trained to be completely off-leash! Obedient and responsive. Without the aggression problems. And the collars are a training tool, and not a permanant addition to their lives. (At least in Tonks' case; we have to wait and see with Luna). Sooo... thats where we stand right now. I need to order some collars, and we start the training next week. |
| Sounds very interesting, please let me know how the training goes, it may be something I could look into for Walter! Good luck! |
| Well; while I'm uneasy with the thought of it getting worse with Luna before it gets better, I'm very excited to have off-leash dogs. Its something I've always fantasized about, but didn't think I was up to the level of training it would require. But now we've no choice; its this or getting rid of Luna (and theres no question about what we have to do).
So I was doing some research this morning. I wanted to make sure there's been no negative feedback about the program (Sit Means Sit) or the product before I committed us to it. And I came across this video. What I like the most is that the dog is wagging his tail the whole time; our trainer's dog did the same in her demo for us. These dogs are happy to be following their owner's commands.... The video is here |
| If anyone wants my opinion on this type of training, and what it will do to your dog, and why it is NOT a good option, and why these dogs are wagging thier tails, etc. etc. etc.send me a PM and I will be happy to enlighten you.
It is not good. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: This is how it was explained to me; its not corrective or used as punishment. The collar is used in conjunction with commands; you tell your dog to sit at the same time that you giv them a pulse. Its like tapping them on the shoulder. In the begining, it will be annoying, and they dog wil be inclined to fight it. The trainer says she expects Tonks to fall right in line; she has a very people pleasing nature. So in Tonk's case, I'm very excited. She's very distracted during training, and it has been a slow road of learning.
I'm really glad you're trying to address the issue and not just throwing in the towel but I'm really confused as to how this works. Just to see if I understand: if it's not corrective or used as punishment - then how exactly does it work? How does the dog get the connection? You ask for a sit and zap them at the same time and they somehow know spontaneously how to sit? Do they know how to sit? Help me out here, please - how does this teach a dog to come when called? Or are there some missing pieces to the puzzle? From what you described all I can fathom is that it works thus if used as a training tool: You call the dog's name and zap them and they get scared so run to you, hopefully, and not the road? Or? What am I missing? WHat happens if you ask for a sit and they don't get it? Do you turn the strength up and zap them again? If it's just a slight annoyance, which could be the case at really low levels - I took a dog to PT for 6 mos and her therapist used a tens unit and I've seen how it works - I guess it can be used as an attention getter, but...it's medical device, not a training tool and there's room to cause your dog pain and fear. I guess I'm just really confused. If I did this to Sybil just once I doubt she'd ever trust me again. I know you're scared because of what's going on and of Luna and I absolutely understand that and I have a lot of respect for you for wanting to address it, but from what little I understand of the method it's scaring the h^%$ out of me. I know you're not that kind of owner, so there must be something about this I don't understand?
Kristine |
| I understand peoples' concerns. I too am concerned. But I have to do something; the aggression is escalating, and I can't wait until my dog mauls a small child before I get serious. If I do this now, and I do it right, we will never have to worry about worst case scenarios. That Luna is showing such aggression at a yound age is an indicator that given time, she will grow into a FAR more aggressive dog than we can hope to handle. We can hardly handle her now when she "goes off".
I love my dogs. I love them to bits. I cry myself to sleep at what Luna is becoming. Everyone will have an opinion, but I don't think myself cruel for doing this; I'm thinking long term here. A short period of discomfort will insure a lifetime of joy. For me AND my dogs. As for how it works; We train the heck out of them. Right now if I give a command, Luna sizes me up and says "I don't think so" or "yeah okay, I'll do it this time". Since she wants dominancy, she is challenging my every command to her. With the collar, she will do as I ask and I'll continue to ask until she obeys. She will be kept so mentally busy, that by the end of a day she'll be worn out. The same way that after taking a test you feel exhausted, even though you were sitting down. Her being constantly trained, constantly worked like this, will keep her tired enough to keep her from wanting to fight; from having the energy to fight. And it will keep me in her view as the Alpha role. And? The reward for my dogs will be being off leash. They LOVE that at the park; now they can be far more often. Otherwise Luna will have a life spent mostly in a crate, to keep her from attacking Tonks, Adam myself, guests to the house... we'll have to stop taking her to the park, and for car rides (things she loves) and it is no life for a dog of mine. NO its not an easy answer. But its better than alot of my other options. And I for one am going for it. |
| I thought I was the only one who was confused - so for once I was quiet.
What kind of certification does this behaviorist have and I wouldn't have gone for an aggressive behaviorist because the dog may be reactive and fearful and not aggressive. |
kerry wrote: I thought I was the only one who was confused - so for once I was quiet.
What kind of certification does this behaviorist have and I wouldn't have gone for an aggressive behaviorist because the dog may be reactive and fearful and not aggressive. The trainer came recommended from Kata Miller right here on the OES board... as well as from my vet, and the doggie daycare i go to, and the obediance school I took my pups too. This trainer is a Certified Dog Trainer through Animal Behavior College and AKC Canine Good Citizen Evaluator. She is also a member of The Association of Pet Dog Trainers. Please understand I have been researching this for WEEKS. Luna is aggressive. She is not fearful, she is not reactive. I've had 2 behaviorist tell me so. My vet has told me to get this done or to be prepared to have her put down, as has my obedience trainer. She shows all the aggressive signs; I've been reading books and talking to training professionals. Because I am only just now posting about it on the board, doesn't mean I am only just now seeing signs and over-reacting. This has been months of work on our part. I know its controversial. But so is having my dog bite a person, and get euthanized for it. I can't live with that; with letting that happen. And I think this training program is FAR more humane than some of the others I've been researching. And the American Humane Society approves of it; that goes a long way for me. |
| is she aggressive towards people as well? I thoguht I only saw reference to her being aggressive with her littermate.
I've just never heard of the technique. |
kerry wrote: is she aggressive towards people as well? I thoguht I only saw reference to her being aggressive with her littermate.
I've just never heard of the technique. Last week she was growling, so a close friend that was at the house "put her down"; flipper her on her back into a "submissive" position. And she flipped out. Growling, barking and trying to bite him. Finding aggressive traits in a dog this young is indicitive of a much greater problem (or so I have read). Its like finding a 5 year old with a swtichblade at your throat. You don't say "well, we caught it early, so it will be easier to fix" Instead you look at the problem and realize that it runs DEEP. Luna was food guarding, and we got her to stop. I saw this as a win. But the behavior didn't stop, it was transfered and multiplied. She used to just guard food. Now she's fine with her food bowl, but she is guarding her toys, bones, and even the affection we give her. And if "guarding" meant "growling" I'd say "no problem". But its fights and the agression has begun to turn towards people. And this is where she is at only 6 months old. The program we are going to enroll in is "Sit Means Sit". I have been Googling it all morning, and not come up with any negative reviews. I have a call into my vet, who recommended this trainer, to ask her about any potential problems and her experiences with pets that have used this training system. We haven't had a fight in 3 days. I have been trying to keep them physically exhausted, so they can't fight. Long walks, multiple training sessions, time at the park, car rides. But I'm also exhausted from the effort and the emotional strain, and I'm falling behind in my work. Three days is a long time for us to go without a fight; Adam and I are both on pins and needles, waiting for it to happen. Hoping we don't get bitten. Hoping Tonks won't have to be taken to the emergency Vet. If someone more or equally qualified to Kata, my vet, and my obedience trainers can suggest for me an alternative route, I would be more than willing to look into it. I'm not mean, and I'm not cruel; I just want happy dogs, healthy dogs, and I want to be a responsible dog owner. |
Quote: Last week she was growling, so a close friend that was at the house "put her down"; flipper her on her back into a "submissive" position. And she flipped out. Growling, barking and trying to bite him. Yikes... I don't know that I would have allowed a friend to do this to my dog. It seems that there would of course be a challenge. And I would never touch my own dog if she was growling... they're telling you they're reaching their limit. I have one that I used to flip... I just tell her "over" now and she rolls over instead Seems to have become a game instead. Some dogs will never accept "the flip". It makes it difficult when we aren't actually experiencing what someone else is experiencing... words can only share so much. Quote: Finding aggressive traits in a dog this young is indicitive of a much greater problem
This just doesn't sound like a normal rebellious teenager. If Luna is a dog that was bred poorly (please understand that I am NOT saying this to be mean but some dogs just should never be bred) then steps outside the norm may be required rather than selecting the alternative of simply putting her down. So the trainer compared it to a tens unit? My husband had 3 surgeries on his wrist after it had been shut in a county truck years ago... with the 2nd one (which was 20+ years ago) he had used a tens unit for a while. It was not painful but rather sent sensations through his wrist... described as a tingly sensation. I don't know how an aggressive dog would respond to this. Even with the best of training, I could never trust a dog off-leash. If the dog fails just once to be 100% reliable, the dog looses and emotional scars are left behind. |
| Darth snuggle I sent you a PM |
| I just want to offer some words of support/encouragement. Having an aggressive puppy is EXTREMELY HARD! I don't fully understand the training method, but it doesn't at all sound like Luna will be hurt in the process and I definitely trust Kata's judgment, so I say definitely go with your gut and heart in how to proceed with your dog!
If you ever need to vent feel free to send me a pm, I've been dealing with this with Walter for 5 years now so I can definitely empathize |
| Can't offer any advice but just wanted to wish you and Luna the best of luck and I know you will do what you think is best for her out of your love for her |
I hope this works for you!  I can't even imagine having to deal with this.
-crustybirds |
| I want to thank everyone SO MUCH for thier opinions, the personal experiences they've shared with me here and through PMs and thier support. And also thanks to the people who expressed their doubt; it made me make some extra phone calls and do some extra research online today, and have left me feeling alot more confident.
This has been tremendously difficult for us. Luna and Tonks represent, for me, the lifelong fulfilment of my desire to have my own sheepdog. For Adam, it was his opportunity to face his childhood issues with dogs, and with having been bitten multiple times. So imagine how hard this is for us both. But, I think it is even harder for Luna. She's just a dog, who wants what she wants, and has no idea that it isn't okay. And she doesn't understand why i cry; she doesn't understand why Adam is upset, and she wants to comfort us. She's so lovely, and sweet, when she isn't that other, aggressive animal. I owe it to her to try everything I can to bring some stability and control into all of our lives, and I really think this is the way to do it. I'll be sure to keep everyone updated on our progress. |
6Girls wrote: Quote: Last week she was growling, so a close friend that was at the house "put her down"; flipper her on her back into a "submissive" position. And she flipped out. Growling, barking and trying to bite him. Yikes... I don't know that I would have allowed a friend to do this to my dog. I agree with you 100%. It was not his palce to do this, and I told him as much. He has since come to us, and a friend that is often over our haouse, and asked that we let him know, in the new training program, how he should behave to be helpful to us. Which I apprecaited him doing. 6Girls wrote: Quote: Finding aggressive traits in a dog this young is indicitive of a much greater problem This just doesn't sound like a normal rebellious teenager. If Luna is a dog that was bred poorly (please understand that I am NOT saying this to be mean but some dogs just should never be bred) then steps outside the norm may be required rather than selecting the alternative of simply putting her down. Our new trainer said that aggression like this can turn up randomly in the best bred lines. That being said? No, I don't think either of my dogs are particularly well bred. My so-called breeder stopped returning my calls and emails the day I brought my pups home. but I knew going into it that she was a bit sketchy, and more likely than not, a BYB. 6Girls wrote: So the trainer compared it to a tens unit? My husband had 3 surgeries on his wrist after it had been shut in a county truck years ago... with the 2nd one (which was 20+ years ago) he had used a tens unit for a while. It was not painful but rather sent sensations through his wrist... described as a tingly sensation. I don't know how an aggressive dog would respond to this.
Its not compared to a tens unit; it IS a tens unit. Its a medical rated device. I talked to my vet today about it, to ask if there was any long term issues; if they had any negative experiences with it, treated dogs that had used it, etc. They not only said that they had no negative experiences, but said if its what my trainer suggests (and they know and recommend her) then they would say I need to do it. Our new trainer showed us a dog in her care; a dog that at 2 years old had hospitalized 2 other dogs and a small child. That dog was now 5, and had been using the devide for 3 years contantly. She called him the "Hannibal Lector of the canine world", and said that vets and behaviorists had said this dog needed to be put down. But we watched him behave beautifully. To the point that when Luna lunged at him, he looked to the trainer, and then to a spot further away, and then back to the trainer. She told him "yes you can move. Spot." and she pointed to where he was looking and he trotted over, putting more distance between him and Luna. ("Spot" is the command for "go over there, to your Spot") Rather than respond with aggression, he asked for permission to move. It was stunning not only to see it, but to see the level of communication and understanding between them. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: ...We've been warned that for 2 - 4 weeks (no real telling how long, we're just hoping that will be our range) it will get worse before it gets better. We are hoping for the shorter time range, as 3 weeks takes us into Sheepie Palooza....
Although I don't agree with this type of training, I do hope you have a handle on this behavior before attending Sheepiepalooza. This could be an extremely dangerous situation for a lot of people and their dogs. One of the best things at last year's gathering was the ability for all OES to get along off-leash at the dog park. Looking forward to updates. |
Quote: Its not compared to a tens unit; it IS a tens unit. Its a medical rated device.
So it's different than traditional "shock collars" many of us hear about. I don't know anything about either... other than what my husband described with the tens unit. None of mine are OESCA dogs either. All are from a BYB or rescues and have good temperaments... though I did have a dog aggressive OES-mix for 11 years... she bit my son on the thumb twice. You're right, aggression can pop up in different lines... it seems there would be fewer problems though in pups carefully bred for temperament and health. But I'm not a breeder. Has anyone with a lot of dog experience tried to keep Luna for a week or two to see if her unusual growly behavior and alphaness continues or lessens? Just wondering if she was away from Tonks if her behavior would improve... if all other options fail. |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: Although I don't agree with this type of training, I do hope you have a handle on this behavior before attending Sheepiepalooza. This could be an extremely dangerous situation for a lot of people and their dogs. One of the best things at last year's gathering was the ability for all OES to get along off-leash at the dog park.
Looking forward to updates. I'm really very much aware of this, and I would never endanger anyone else or thier pets. Luna currently enjoys our dog park every afternoon for 1 - 2 hours without problem. If I thought it wouldn't work, I wouldn't bring her. If between now and then, she changed enough, became volatile or hostile towards other dogs or people, I wouldn't bring her. I thought I was pretty clear that I have my community as well as my dog's best interest in mind. If the folks that arrange Sheepie Palooza have any concerns, I can have our doggie day care and trainer write a letter regarding Luna's behavior with other dogs and people. Or they can ask me to not attend. I would defer to thier judgement, as its thier event. |
6Girls wrote: Has anyone with a lot of dog experience tried to keep Luna for a week or two to see if her unusual growly behavior and alphaness continues or lessens? Just wondering if she was away from Tonks if her behavior would improve... if all other options fail.
I wonder the same thing. But the trainer has said the behavior won't magically go away; its part of who Luna is; she's hardwired to be this dog. So I think she'd most likely just transfer it to a different dog, or maybe even a person if Tonks wasn't around. We are going on a business trip in 3 weeks, for a week. Luna and Tonks will both be staying with our trainer for that period of time. So I'm curious as to how it will afffect them. |
| Just wanted you to know that I fully believe you have Luna's best interest at heart. I hope this training method works well for you. We are all here to give our opinions, advice, and support.
Jennie |
Quote: Last week she was growling, so a close friend that was at the house "put her down"; flipper her on her back into a "submissive" position. And she flipped out. Growling, barking and trying to bite him.
I saw that on Dog Whisperer and when Mona Lisa was a puppy she would get too wild and aggressive and my husband used to use it on her and it worked. Now she just lays down and rolls over on her own. It's really sweet - he never hurt her but she learned to get calmed down and stop being so wild and biting everyone. I feel bad for you and I hope everything works out... |
| As when deciding what to do with children, as a concerned parent all that you can do is be as informed as possible, keep asking questions, and go with your gut feeling. You are doing all of the above and are acting responsibly. There should be no guilt on your part. Keep telling yourself that you are trying and will keep trying. That is all that you can do. Remember that opinions and experiences can vary with each person asked. Filter through all of it and move forward. You will overcome this. Don't fall into despair, Luna needs you.
So here's one more question: Some have suggested seizures as a possibility. Have you had this medically ruled out? With children sometimes before a very mild seizure they will look away just slightly, not focused, before the seizure. Then, immediately they will bite or show aggressive behavior. Most around them wouldn't even notice that it was a seizure. There was a 5 yr old that I evaluated once which was told that he had to find another school because of his aggressive behavior. He was sweet as pie 99% of the time. Then occasionally the behavior I described above. They are usually a bit disoriented afterwards and scared. More food for thought. |
DandAbi wrote: So here's one more question:
Some have suggested seizures as a possibility. Have you had this medically ruled out? With children sometimes before a very mild seizure they will look away just slightly, not focused, before the seizure. Then, immediately they will bite or show aggressive behavior. Most around them wouldn't even notice that it was a seizure. There was a 5 yr old that I evaluated once which was told that he had to find another school because of his aggressive behavior. He was sweet as pie 99% of the time. Then occasionally the behavior I described above. They are usually a bit disoriented afterwards and scared. More food for thought. Good point, Dee. I thought that when she described the growling at nothing. They're called focal seizures and some have suggested that they may be the cause of at least some rage cases. For a while some severely aggressive and also severely OCD dogs, as I recall, were experimentally treated with anti-seizure meds, but I think that practice has fallen out of favor. 'I think Dr Dodman at Tufts may have been involved. The hard part with focals is getting a diagnosis since they're not as observationally obvious as a grand mal. What concerned me, beyond the obvious, when she mentioned the e-collar is what electrical stimuli would do IF she's experiencing focals, since seizures are by definition already misfirings in the brain. Not to scare you, kiddo - this is pretty far out there. I don't know that anyone would necessarily know. It might be worth talking to a neurologist, though. Kristine |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: Although I don't agree with this type of training, I do hope you have a handle on this behavior before attending Sheepiepalooza. This could be an extremely dangerous situation for a lot of people and their dogs. One of the best things at last year's gathering was the ability for all OES to get along off-leash at the dog park.
Not all dogs can handle being off leash with other dogs they don't know. that is no reason for people to avoid an event. Everyone should have control of their own dogs at all times - whether on or off leash and they should know when they can play with another dog or not. I am sure darth snuggle will do what is best for her dogs and what need to be done to keep them safe and happy and I can't wait to meet both her dogs. |
kerry wrote: [quote="Maggie McGee IV]
Although I don't agree with this type of training, I do hope you have a handle on this behavior before attending Sheepiepalooza. This could be an extremely dangerous situation for a lot of people and their dogs. One of the best things at last year's gathering was the ability for all OES to get along off-leash at the dog park. [/quote] Not all dogs can handle being off leash with other dogs they don't know. that is no reason for people to avoid an event. Everyone should have control of their own dogs at all times - whether on or off leash and they should know when they can play with another dog or not. I am sure darth snuggle will do what is best for her dogs and what need to be done to keep them safe and happy and I can't wait to meet both her dogs.[/quote] I think part of the reason I am SO looking forward to Sheepie Palooza is that my girsl are so good with other dogs! Between the 12 weeks of obedience classes (2 classes of 6 weeks each) daily trips to the dog park and doggie day care; my girls LOVE being with other dogs. They are tremendously social. That being said, I would never endanger anyone or thier furry companions by bringing a dog that I thought was likely to mis-behave in a violent fashion. Thats not who Luna is; her aggression (for now) is aimed directly at Tonks. Should that dynamic change for the worse, and her focus for her aggression begin to include other dogs or people, we would not attend the get-together in St. Louis. |
| I'll call my vet again today and ask her. I talked to her yesterday, and she seemed in favor of having Luna go through the training first, to eliminate that as the possibility, and if the behavior was still a problem, to then pursue the medical angle. I thought she was considering the financial aspect of things, but thats just my assumption; I could be wrong.
Mad Dog wrote: DandAbi wrote: So here's one more question: Some have suggested seizures as a possibility. Have you had this medically ruled out? With children sometimes before a very mild seizure they will look away just slightly, not focused, before the seizure. Then, immediately they will bite or show aggressive behavior. Most around them wouldn't even notice that it was a seizure. There was a 5 yr old that I evaluated once which was told that he had to find another school because of his aggressive behavior. He was sweet as pie 99% of the time. Then occasionally the behavior I described above. They are usually a bit disoriented afterwards and scared. More food for thought. Good point, Dee. I thought that when she described the growling at nothing. They're called focal seizures and some have suggested that they may be the cause of at least some rage cases. For a while some severely aggressive and also severely OCD dogs, as I recall, were experimentally treated with anti-seizure meds, but I think that practice has fallen out of favor. 'I think Dr Dodman at Tufts may have been involved. The hard part with focals is getting a diagnosis since they're not as observationally obvious as a grand mal. What concerned me, beyond the obvious, when she mentioned the e-collar is what electrical stimuli would do IF she's experiencing focals, since seizures are by definition already misfirings in the brain. Not to scare you, kiddo - this is pretty far out there. I don't know that anyone would necessarily know. It might be worth talking to a neurologist, though. Kristine |
| [quote="Darth Snuggle her aggression (for now) is aimed directly at Tonks. [/quote]
You know how when you are in a bad mood or don't feel well and mad at your boss you yell at your husband? Sounds like what you are dealing with. Did you have a full blood work up for the pupper? Poor baby. |
| I cant offer any advice as ive never been in this situation,
But what i can tell from all that you have written is you love and care for your dogs with all your heart, and you only want whats best for them,and for this i aplaud you.. I can see by all your replies to all the questions,that you have done your reserch and not taken any advice lightly I wish you all the luck til you find the cure for her behaviour,and i hope this comes to you sooner rather than latter.. Fingers crossed. |
sharon & oliver wrote: I cant offer any advice as ive never been in this situation,
But what i can tell from all that you have written is you love and care for your dogs with all your heart, and you only want whats best for them,and for this i aplaud you.. I can see by all your replies to all the questions,that you have done your reserch and not taken any advice lightly I wish you all the luck til you find the cure for her behaviour,and i hope this comes to you sooner rather than latter.. Fingers crossed. I can't thank everyone enough for thier support, and even thier questioning my choices; like i said earlier, it forced me to do even more research, and really double check my facts. I've been told there's no "cure"; its like curing a personality. This is just who Luna was born to be. But there's management and there's our ability to adjust to make things easier. An example: last night we had some Chinese food, and Adam was eating a fortune cookie. Luna came over and sat down for a piece; Adam told her to lie down, she did, so he gave her a piece. He ran through a few more commands, each time giving her a little piece of cookie. Tonks heard the commands, and in her doggie brain must have said "Hey! There's treats to be had!" and trotted over. Instantly Adam and I saw the potential for a problem, but Luna was still faster than us, and was on Tonks as soon as she came along side her. There was no growled warning, that a "normal" dog might have given. But Adam and I were ready, if not fast enough, and I rolled my chair back into the fight and it was over. Luna was guarding her human, and her cookies. Tonks was just wanting some of the fun. What Adam and I can do is make sure that if we are training Luna with treats, that in another area of the house Tonks is occupied or getting her own training with treats. Thats one form of "management". Our new trainer will show us others, and maybe the advanced training techniques will allow us to command Luna to her "place" when we see a potential for a fight. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: An example: last night we had some Chinese food, and Adam was eating a fortune cookie. Luna came over and sat down for a piece; Adam told her to lie down, she did, so he gave her a piece. He ran through a few more commands, each time giving her a little piece of cookie. Tonks heard the commands, and in her doggie brain must have said "Hey! There's treats to be had!" and trotted over.
I'm not a trainer but I have always had more than one dog and one of the first things I would say is no dogs in with people when you are eating. too much chance of a problem. the best thing to do is NOT set them up for failure. In our recent positive training journey I am amazed at how important that really is. Honestly your example is normal doggie behavior and dogs have to be much older in most cases to be able to handle food at the same time - mine are jsut getting it (and now we bring in a new puppy talk about setting them up for failure )
I hope it works out for you and the girls they look great in the doggie day care pictures |
kerry wrote: I'm not a trainer but I have always had more than one dog and one of the first things I would say is no dogs in with people when you are eating. too much chance of a problem. the best thing to do is NOT set them up for failure.
In our recent positive training journey I am amazed at how important that really is. Honestly your example is normal doggie behavior and dogs have to be much older in most cases to be able to handle food at the same time - mine are jsut getting it (and now we bring in a new puppy talk about setting them up for failure ) I hope it works out for you and the girls they look great in the doggie day care pictures oh i am right there with you; dogs don't get our "meal time" food. But these are Adam's first dogs, and he's making all sorts of "mistakes" when he thinks I'm not looking. |
Quote: But these are Adam's first dogs, and he's making all sorts of "mistakes" when he thinks I'm not looking.
It takes a lot of thought and close observation. It's a learning process for the humans and can be difficult for some people to do effectively. For some it comes almost naturally and others it takes much longer. We too dealt with some of what you're experiencing so I'm just sharing some thoughts here... I definitely don't have all the answers, just hope something might help. Only you know your dogs and what training and handling they will tolerate. I'm just wondering if you teach them BOTH to respect each other's space if Luna will eventually stop these confrontations. Maybe she'll be more secure in her position and come to understand she doesn't need to lash out. Maybe do some roll playing with your husband. If he can become more observant about who is entering HIS area, he may be able to prevent a tiff from even occurring. Our dogs DO get human food... we simply taught them that they wait their turn... not usually at the dinner table though. (I say "simply" but it wasn't really that simple  ) Before, when there was a squabble, that was it... NO more treats for ANYONE and I would walk away. There are times I simply say "MINE" if they're sitting there watching me 
First start with an "all gone" signal. I take my hands, make a dramatic wiping of them together with two stokes and say "ALL GONE" and leave the area. It now only takes a quick hand signal and the group disperses. What would happen if you teach Luna and Tonks to take turns? Mine gather around for a treat. I usually say a name, then give that dog her treat. We go round and round with no particular order. It takes a lot of repetition... most likely with someone having control of Luna (leash) to prevent her from reacting at first. We had a problem with tiffs if food hit the floor. Panda and Meesha would go after whoever tried to get it. So I worked with them both one-on-one. It would be best to work with BOTH Tonks and Luna so neither goes after a treat on the floor. I would take a biscuit and drop it on the floor and say "leave it"... then "look at me". If she tried to pick it up, I covered it with my foot and again said "look at me". If she still went after it I said "MINE... LEAVE IT". When she looked at me, she got a much better treat than that old biscuit. We did this for weeks until they would no longer go for what was on the floor and would rather "look at me"... because there is ALWAYS another treat to be had. Now if food hits the floor I just say "MINE". I KNOW you love both your dogs and are trying to find a solution. None of this is a cure-all but maybe something here will help. |
| These are all really great suggestions. But here's part of my dilema; Luna is inconsistant in her aggressiveness. Last night I think she was bent out of shape because it wasn't a usual treat, and perhaps to her thinking, something special. Mabye because it was HER time with Adam, in her mind. I often re-inforce their training with them being side by side, give one a command and then a treat, and then the other. And we don't ever have a problem.
I like the idea of teaching them both to respect each others' space; that really would eliminate alot of our troubles. I'm going to ask our trainer about that! 6Girls wrote: Quote: But these are Adam's first dogs, and he's making all sorts of "mistakes" when he thinks I'm not looking. It takes a lot of thought and close observation. It's a learning process for the humans and can be difficult for some people to do effectively. For some it comes almost naturally and others it takes much longer. We too dealt with some of what you're experiencing so I'm just sharing some thoughts here... I definitely don't have all the answers, just hope something might help. Only you know your dogs and what training and handling they will tolerate. I'm just wondering if you teach them BOTH to respect each other's space if Luna will eventually stop these confrontations. Maybe she'll be more secure in her position and come to understand she doesn't need to lash out. Maybe do some roll playing with your husband. If he can become more observant about who is entering HIS area, he may be able to prevent a tiff from even occurring. Our dogs DO get human food... we simply taught them that they wait their turn... not usually at the dinner table though. (I say "simply" but it wasn't really that simple ) Before, when there was a squabble, that was it... NO more treats for ANYONE and I would walk away. There are times I simply say "MINE" if they're sitting there watching me First start with an "all gone" signal. I take my hands, make a dramatic wiping of them together with two stokes and say "ALL GONE" and leave the area. It now only takes a quick hand signal and the group disperses. What would happen if you teach Luna and Tonks to take turns? Mine gather around for a treat. I usually say a name, then give that dog her treat. We go round and round with no particular order. It takes a lot of repetition... most likely with someone having control of Luna (leash) to prevent her from reacting at first. We had a problem with tiffs if food hit the floor. Panda and Meesha would go after whoever tried to get it. So I worked with them both one-on-one. It would be best to work with BOTH Tonks and Luna so neither goes after a treat on the floor. I would take a biscuit and drop it on the floor and say "leave it"... then "look at me". If she tried to pick it up, I covered it with my foot and again said "look at me". If she still went after it I said "MINE... LEAVE IT". When she looked at me, she got a much better treat than that old biscuit. We did this for weeks until they would no longer go for what was on the floor and would rather "look at me"... because there is ALWAYS another treat to be had. Now if food hits the floor I just say "MINE". I KNOW you love both your dogs and are trying to find a solution. None of this is a cure-all but maybe something here will help. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: These are all really great suggestions. But here's part of my dilema; Luna is inconsistant in her aggressiveness. Last night I think she was bent out of shape because it wasn't a usual treat, and perhaps to her thinking, something special. Mabye because it was HER time with Adam, in her mind. I often re-inforce their training with them being side by side, give one a command and then a treat, and then the other. And we don't ever have a problem.
I like the idea of teaching them both to respect each others' space; that really would eliminate alot of our troubles. I'm going to ask our trainer about that! 6Girls wrote: Quote: But these are Adam's first dogs, and he's making all sorts of "mistakes" when he thinks I'm not looking. It takes a lot of thought and close observation. It's a learning process for the humans and can be difficult for some people to do effectively. For some it comes almost naturally and others it takes much longer. We too dealt with some of what you're experiencing so I'm just sharing some thoughts here... I definitely don't have all the answers, just hope something might help. Only you know your dogs and what training and handling they will tolerate. I'm just wondering if you teach them BOTH to respect each other's space if Luna will eventually stop these confrontations. Maybe she'll be more secure in her position and come to understand she doesn't need to lash out. Maybe do some roll playing with your husband. If he can become more observant about who is entering HIS area, he may be able to prevent a tiff from even occurring. Our dogs DO get human food... we simply taught them that they wait their turn... not usually at the dinner table though. (I say "simply" but it wasn't really that simple ) Before, when there was a squabble, that was it... NO more treats for ANYONE and I would walk away. There are times I simply say "MINE" if they're sitting there watching me First start with an "all gone" signal. I take my hands, make a dramatic wiping of them together with two stokes and say "ALL GONE" and leave the area. It now only takes a quick hand signal and the group disperses. What would happen if you teach Luna and Tonks to take turns? Mine gather around for a treat. I usually say a name, then give that dog her treat. We go round and round with no particular order. It takes a lot of repetition... most likely with someone having control of Luna (leash) to prevent her from reacting at first. We had a problem with tiffs if food hit the floor. Panda and Meesha would go after whoever tried to get it. So I worked with them both one-on-one. It would be best to work with BOTH Tonks and Luna so neither goes after a treat on the floor. I would take a biscuit and drop it on the floor and say "leave it"... then "look at me". If she tried to pick it up, I covered it with my foot and again said "look at me". If she still went after it I said "MINE... LEAVE IT". When she looked at me, she got a much better treat than that old biscuit. We did this for weeks until they would no longer go for what was on the floor and would rather "look at me"... because there is ALWAYS another treat to be had. Now if food hits the floor I just say "MINE". I KNOW you love both your dogs and are trying to find a solution. None of this is a cure-all but maybe something here will help. I think you may be starting to see this isn't as unusual as you thought and really may be part of the growing pains having two puppers close in age. |
| The part about Luna not being consistant with her aggressiveness caught my eye...
That doesn't matter now. The new way for these 2 is based on prevention. A new way of life, new structure. You no longer can be reactive - as you have found out - it just doesn't work. The goal now is to be preventative - to set them up so the old habits can't ever happen. You are setting them up to succeed! That is how our multidog, multi breed household functions, as well as having foster dogs popping through often. We have rules and structure, and everyone follows them. Even (especially) the perceived victim. Known triggers (objects) or habits and actions are eliminated. You don't want to be in the position of trying to fix something after the fact. Prevention is the way to go. Another key thing - catch them being good. Any behavior that is something you like - immediately praise. In my classes I call it praising random good behaviors. The girls still need all the positives, to counteract the change. I think of it like a scale with the balance in the middle. Put all the negatives with things you are trying to change on one side of the scale. You need to heap the opposite side of the scale with positives to keep (or exceed) the balance. You better still be coming to Sheepiepalooza - I can't wait to meet these 2! |
| I don't want to put a negative vibe on your situation at the moment and I truly hope it will work out between the two girls.
Just want you to know sometimes even with the best training it does not work out. A friend of mine quite a few years back kept two bitches from the litter, they did not get on and it did not matter how they approached the situation there was a great dominance issue between the 2 girls. Bitches going at each other is far worse then two dogs having a fight. Anyhow to cut a long story short, after 16 months of things not working out and the fights between the 2 getting worse, she ended up re-homing one of them into a one on one situation and both girls never looked back. They bloomed and the one being bossed flowered into a wonderfull girl, the dominant one had what she wanted total attention and learnt manners and became a sweetie being in a family where she was the Queen of her domain. It's very hard to have two at the same age, you have one step forward and many steps back with regards to attention, training and issues regarding if one starts guarding there food and owners etc and the other one is submissive and getting boxed up all the time. This lady has had OES for over 30 years and she resolved the problems by needing to re-house one of the girls and has never looked back and it ended up being the best thing for both the girls, they lived a long and happy life with no issues as both being queens of their own domains. Just a thought there as to what can transpire from having two youngster, as I said I hope you can resolve your problems with the girls. Sometimes even though they are from the same litter they just don't get along regardless of how much you do try to resolve the issues. |
| I don't view the plain truth as your being negative. You are being realistic. Adam and I have already talked about "worst case scenarios" and god-forbid we have to re-home one of the girls, that family will be getting one REALLY well trained dog.
I don't believe in passing my "burden" on to another un-suspecting family or individual. Adam and I will try everything within our power to find either a resolution or a workable situation for our 2 girls. But should that not be an attainable goal, we have talked about re-homing. We've even talked about our worst fears, that Luna develop into a really vicious animal, and what that would entail our having to do. But we are keeping a positive attitude, and doing what we can now, to try and avoid those possible outcomes. lisaoes wrote: I don't want to put a negative vibe on your situation at the moment and I truly hope it will work out between the two girls. Just want you to know sometimes even with the best training it does not work out. A friend of mine quite a few years back kept two bitches from the litter, they did not get on and it did not matter how they approached the situation there was a great dominance issue between the 2 girls. Bitches going at each other is far worse then two dogs having a fight. Anyhow to cut a long story short, after 16 months of things not working out and the fights between the 2 getting worse, she ended up re-homing one of them into a one on one situation and both girls never looked back. They bloomed and the one being bossed flowered into a wonderfull girl, the dominant one had what she wanted total attention and learnt manners and became a sweetie being in a family where she was the Queen of her domain. It's very hard to have two at the same age, you have one step forward and many steps back with regards to attention, training and issues regarding if one starts guarding there food and owners etc and the other one is submissive and getting boxed up all the time. This lady has had OES for over 30 years and she resolved the problems by needing to re-house one of the girls and has never looked back and it ended up being the best thing for both the girls, they lived a long and happy life with no issues as both being queens of their own domains. Just a thought there as to what can transpire from having two youngster, as I said I hope you can resolve your problems with the girls. Sometimes even though they are from the same litter they just don't get along regardless of how much you do try to resolve the issues. |
| Hi,
Just wanted to comment on another possibility with a dog that barks at supposedly nothing. Panda too experienced episodes of this and it was discovered he probably saw "floaters" or shadows due to his diminishing eyesight. This was suggested to me by the vet and optomologist who he later saw, that confirmed some loss of eyesight in one eye. I also noticed Shaggy doing this as her eyesight diminshed with old age and with both Shaggy and Panda the problem usually occurred at dusk or when they glanced in a darkened room. Simply turning on the light stopped the barking. Perhaps when you go to the vets it's worth asking them to check eyesight to rule it out perhaps? I am really wishing you the best and hope you find a solution to this problem. Hugs! Marianne |
| I have also experienced similar behavior from Violet to China, and usually food related. So when we are handing out treats we are very vigulant about what is going on the whole time. I make sure something, my leg, table leg or something is between Violet and China. Many times China will be under the table and Violet will stand next to me. As soon as we read into Violet's body that she is getting excited...the treats stop. When we are done handing out treats I hold up two hands and say "all gone" and Violet will then walk away. We have not had an attack in quite sometime now, thank god, they are scarey when they happen.
When giving them the remainder of my dinner, I make sure they have eaten their dinners first...having a full belly with Violet seems to help curve the behavior also. China and Asia have learned to give Violet her "space". Good luck! |
| Hi Marianne;
thanks for the suggestion; I talked to my vet yesterday and asked if they felt a vision check might not be a possible option. They said I should try the training first, and if the problems didn't ease up, that they could recommend a vision specialist. I'm going to talk with the trainer again tomorrow. The girls spent 7hours at Doggie Daycare today, and were exhausted when they got home, but still found the energy to have a big old fight. I'm now skeptical of the training keeping them tired enough to not fight, if 7 hours of straight playtime didn't do it. They seem to want to fight far too much now, and Tonks was almost as bad an instigator tonight as Luna was.... Funny side note though... they started fighting like crazy, and one of my cats comes racing out of the bedroom (now mind you, my cats and dogs have yet to become even remotely social) stops at the edge of the fight, and hisses at them. As if to say "stop it you guys!" I of course had to get her out of the fight too. I have NO IDEA what she was thinking... I cannot afford a trainer for my aggressive cat as well.
Marianne wrote: Hi, Just wanted to comment on another possibility with a dog that barks at supposedly nothing. Panda too experienced episodes of this and it was discovered he probably saw "floaters" or shadows due to his diminishing eyesight. This was suggested to me by the vet and optomologist who he later saw, that confirmed some loss of eyesight in one eye. I also noticed Shaggy doing this as her eyesight diminshed with old age and with both Shaggy and Panda the problem usually occurred at dusk or when they glanced in a darkened room. Simply turning on the light stopped the barking. Perhaps when you go to the vets it's worth asking them to check eyesight to rule it out perhaps? I am really wishing you the best and hope you find a solution to this problem. Hugs! Marianne |
here they are at four and five weeks old. Looks like Luna was a trouble maker from the start. I should have seen the signs...
 |
| They are gorgeous, |
| That's another problem that you are facing is the fact these babies left the nest way too early. So that does not help, it is amazing what they learn off their mother and other siblings with social behaviour towards each other. Having them under 8 weeks they miss out on a lot of these vital learning skills.
Wishing you all the best and again I hope it is something that can be remedied between the two of them and they end up great company for each other. |
| Did you have them at 5 or 6 weeks old? I guess I missed this.
My Schipperke-mix's mother was hit by a car... she was an only pup and orphaned at around 5-6 weeks?? http://oesusa.com/Meesha-Maggie/Meesha12.jpg They miss out on so much education from their mama and littermates. My OES-mix disliked my Border Collie-mix but we made it work. It was like living with a loaded gun though... we never knew when she was going to go off. My BC had 3 stitches in her leg once... she had rolled over as submissive in the backyard and my OES-mix laid into her. going for the legs, belly, head... and SHAKING while biting. NOT your normal behavior. It took a plastic broom-rake to get her off her. We lost our OES-mix maybe 2 years later to kidney tumors... thankfully we never had another confrontation like that but we had gates in the house and learned what to avoid. After she died, our BC-mix, at that time 5 years old, blossomed into a different dog. No longer as timid... more confident... happy. She was no longer ruled by an unfair dictator. She didn't have to be careful on how she responded. Looking back, we should have rehomed our BC-mix. Sigh. She is now probably our packs "alpha" and rules with a gentle mouth. I say probably because I'm not really sure sometimes if any are actually. I also realize how lucky we were that Emma and Darby are great together  Our vet at the time pointed out that they would keep each other entertained. Never mentioned anything about possible problems.  |
Darth Snuggle wrote: here they are at four and five weeks old. Looks like Luna was a trouble maker from the start. I should have seen the signs...
Honey, there is NOTHING in that picture that would have warned you (unless you actually got them at that age, in which case, Lisa makes a great point about the age puppies leave a litter and having missed out on critical social development, that could be there source of your problem right there.). But there is nothing in 12-14 week old play that would have warned you. All puppies I've known have played rough. It's part of (hopefully) learning what the limits are. Any and all siblings I have lived with have gone through a stage of working things out. I don't know what other factors are at play at your house and I won't pretend I know how to handle serious aggression issues, but most times they quite normally go through these various stages, and beat each other up till they come to some kind of truce and then move on. Your girls haven't reached that truce for whatever reason. Sybil and Mace went through that. And their mom and her sister Bebe did as well. It looked and sounded horrific, but there was no bloodshed, just a lot of clacking of teeth, throwing each other to the ground and telling each other off that usually lasted for weeks, maybe on a smaller scale months, I can't really remember. When I got Maggie and her sister (Deb's Lizzie) in at the same time to foster we quickly split them up because the sanctuary where they had been living reported that one was bullying the other. Deb was to foster Liz (the rest is history ). Maggie, the pushy one, stayed with my pack and at 13 mos old she was still testing her limits and has tried to get into it with all of my youngest in turn. As soon as Liz left, Mags and my little "princess" Macy started trash talking to each other - the same again - no bloodshed, just vocally expressing their disdain for each other. It took months and it honestly wasn't a big deal, and then they sorted themselves out. They actually seek each other out and sleep next to each other now. Teenagers! Who knows?
Just this morning Maggie - who is always looking for someone to annoy - jumped on the more tranquil sister, Sybil, when her back was turned. Literally just jumped on her - nothing more. But it was rude. Unlike her trash-talking sister, Sybil believes that anything worth saying is worth saying with enough force so she doesn't have to keep repeating herself so she flipped Mags to the floor and all but sat on her. (I don't get worked up about these things - I cheer them on and just watch that no one else decides to try to enter the fray). When she finally let her up, Mags was still right there, following her around, nose up her butt. Sybil turned around and walked the little missy into a corner all the while staring her down. At which point Maggie finally backed down and came back to me. ("She was mean to me!"<bats eyelashes and looks pitiful> "Yeah, whatever.") Not trying to trivialize what you're going through in any way, but you can stop beating yourself up over missing some mystical signs. What they were doing back then was perfectly normal puppy behaviour. Evidently it escalated beyond that, but nothing and I do mean nothing, in that picture says anything but cute. And normal. Looking forward to meeting you and the girls in St Louis. 
Kristine |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I'm going to talk with the trainer again tomorrow. The girls spent 7hours at Doggie Daycare today, and were exhausted when they got home, but still found the energy to have a big old fight. I'm now skeptical of the training keeping them tired enough to not fight, if 7 hours of straight playtime didn't do it. They seem to want to fight far too much now, and Tonks was almost as bad an instigator tonight as Luna was....
Yesterday when you mentioned that they "patrol" the day care together I suspected they might really be too nervous to relax and enjoy it aand I think what you saw last night might support that. It seems like the days tension might have spilled over. I would suggest you get Controll Unleashed and read that before you spend money on this training program. ALso Karen Overall' Relaxation Protocl is priceless (I think you really need a certified behaviorist not a trainer. Been there done that - a real intuitive and well trained behaviorist changed Marley in one consultation! we still have issues and we still go to classes but it is a different dynamic. And since Morgan has been on thyroid medicine there have been no real tiffs between them - which makes me think she was picking up and reacting to something from him we were missing. Link |
lisaoes wrote: That's another problem that you are facing is the fact these babies left the nest way too early.
Oh no no! I got them at 8 weeks. I just got to visit them every week leading up to bringing them home; the breeder was within driving distance! So I have weekly photographs of them from 3 weeks on up. |
Quote: Oh no no! I got them at 8 weeks.
Very good. |
| I find it odd that a vet would not want to rule out medical conditions before going onto a training program that has the capability of causing behavioral problems to get worse. It doesn't make sense to go cause a dog to go through mental anguish when it could be a medical thing. And most vets would want to clear that, forst,. I would get a second opinion.
If the other dog has been in the program for 3 years it doesn't sound like it is working very well. How long would Luna have to be subjected to the punishment before it is discovered that it doesn't work and she had a medical condition? Then you have a basket case of a dog that would require re-hab to undo the re-hab...She would have to go into a rescue that would be willing to take her on. The program Kerry mentions, sounds softer, soothing, relaxing and hands-off. I would be much more inclined to participate in a program that is gentle and comforting and pleasant to a dog, rather than something that the trainer has already said will cause her great discomfort. To inflict stress on a dog without her actually knowing why and what to do about it sounds kind of cruel to me... Rehabilitation and behavior modification programs take months, sometimes years. There is no quick fix that is reliable...None. The most reliable training method is positive reinforcement. Negative training methods may appear to work, but just because that is what the dog wants you to think. It is not how the actually dog feels, so is never predictable. A behaviorist is the person to see with behavior problems...not a trainer who will try out one particular training method that may ruin the dog.... |
| I actually sought a Behaviorist first. And not a self-proclaimed one, that thinks they know dogs, and can therefore help. Not some pop-psychologist from some TV Dog trainer show. But a person with a PhD in animal studies, and psychology. The gentleman I talked with holds a masters and a doctorate, and he's taught at both Clemson and Mercer Universities. He's also on the faculty of The University of Georgia's School of Veterinary Medicine. He is a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist. He has written several books and is a frequent international guest speaker on the subject of canine and feline behavior.
He wants almost $600 to come into our home for a 2 hours evaluation and training. At the end of the evaluation he will tell us what to do to adjust our dog's behavior. We are then to call him weekly for 6 weeks to advise him on our results, and he can consult with us regarding our success or failures. THAT is what a behaviorist will do. Spend 2 hours with my dogs. I told him I was looking for a more hands-on approach. He did not reply with a higher rate for such service, but suggested we get a trainer. He even offered to recommend some. So. The behaviorist suggested a trainer. I am following that route. My vet recommended a trainer, and even our prior trainers recommended a trainer. All recommended THIS trainer. I'm just a well intentioned dog owner; I'm not a behaviorist, a trainer, a vet... so who am I to disregard all of these people's advice? I know everyone here is concerned and wants to help, and I really appreciate that. But I'm also not lazy or lackadasical in my choice on this very important subject. Nor am I so trusting and stupid as to think one person will know all and fix everything. So while I am turning to this trainer with my dogs and thier problems, I am asking questions and continuing my pursuit for more answers. I had a pile of books I ordered from Dogwise.com written by behaviorist Jean Donaldson arrive today, and I am going to try and get through them before our first training session next Wednesday. That way I will be in the best possible position to help my dogs, and help my new trainer help my dogs. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: Oh no no! I got them at 8 weeks.
I'm just trying to understand this a bit better, the two girls are not litter Sisters? One is a week younger then the other? Is that correct? If so then did one come home at 8 weeks followed by the 2nd a week later? Or did both come home at the same time with one being 8 weeks and the other 9 weeks old. Or was it 7 & 8 weeks when they came to you? Just want to get this right because it might explain some of Lunas behaviour if she did come to you at 7 weeks and missing out on that last vital week before leaving the nest. Registered breeders have to follow a strict code of ethics that states no puppies can leave to their new homes under 8 weeks of age,there is a good reason for that for the benefit of the puppy, most breeders do not even release them that young and keep them for another couple of weeks. Reason being the more they interact with their siblings and Mom the more they learn their social skills. |
| Luna was 2 days short of 8 weeks old; Tonks was 3 days over. There is a 5 day difference between their ages. They have the same sire and 2 different dams.
lisaoes wrote: Darth Snuggle wrote: Oh no no! I got them at 8 weeks. I'm just trying to understand this a bit better, the two girls are not litter Sisters? One is a week younger then the other? Is that correct? If so then did one come home at 8 weeks followed by the 2nd a week later? Or did both come home at the same time with one being 8 weeks and the other 9 weeks old. Or was it 7 & 8 weeks when they came to you? Just want to get this right because it might explain some of Lunas behaviour if she did come to you at 7 weeks and missing out on that last vital week before leaving the nest. Registered breeders have to follow a strict code of ethics that states no puppies can leave to their new homes under 8 weeks of age,there is a good reason for that for the benefit of the puppy, most breeders do not even release them that young and keep them for another couple of weeks. Reason being the more they interact with their siblings and Mom the more they learn their social skills. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I actually sought a Behaviorist first. He wants almost $600 to come into our home for a 2 hours evaluation and training. At the end of the evaluation he will tell us what to do to adjust our dog's behavior. We are then to call him weekly for 6 weeks to advise him on our results, and he can consult with us regarding our success or failures. THAT is what a behaviorist will do. Spend 2 hours with my dogs. You get what you pay for. A behaviorist studies dog behavior. That is what they do. They know dogs, and why dogs do what they do what they do. That is what you need for Luna. A behaviorist needs to let changes slowly have impact on the dog...and the program tweaked as required. That helps makes the behavior change, permenently. You are looking for a "hands-on" approach which normally means a quick fix....something where you can see results in a short time...that will not happen unless the dog suffers. A trainer knows a little but about dog behavior...enough to train a dog to do something. A trainer is not as knowledgeable about why a dog does what it does, and then the best way to change that. A trainer trains. A trainer does not necessarily change behavior. A very simple and vague example could be a barky dog. A behaviorist will figure out why the dog barks, and then put a plan together to change the dog's barking behavior, using the dog's naturally development canine instincts and working with them. .... While a trainer can show you how to train the dog to stop barking on a cue (or command).., but does nothing to change the dog's barking problem. Or how to use punishment like citronella collors, shock collors, spray bottles etc...but the reason for or actual solving the barking is not addressed. See the difference? Darth Snuggle wrote: .
had a pile of books I ordered from Dogwise.com written by behaviorist Jean Donaldson arrive today, and I am going to try and get through them before our first training session next Wednesday. I LOVE Joan Donaldson.....Let me know what you think.... And I do believe you are trying to do your best, and I applaud that. I am not, however, convinced that the choice you are leaning towards is the best one for Luna. Dogs are not little robots that need to do our bidding as requuested. They are living and breathing animals with their own agenda, and needs. Yuou mentioned that your dream is to have your dogs well-mannered and obedient...Heck, I think that is everyone's dream...I know that my two both have issues.....and things that I wish I didn't have to deal with,  but I know that they are happy, and I do everything I can to keep them that way. They each only have one life to live, and I am blessed to be the one to travel this journey with them. And I think they are pretty lucky, too.
I certainly hope for Luna's sake that you are also considering her needs in all of this....and that she gets to enjoy her time with you. |
Quote: Yuou mentioned that your dream is to have your dogs well-mannered and obedient...Heck, I think that is everyone's dream...I know that my two both have issues. Amen to that sister I need to do a lot more work with my hooligans. Mine are NOT angels. Mine each have issues too and while they are not the best trained, we do live in relative harmony. We found ways to make it work so everyone can co-exist. Quote: Dogs are not little robots that need to do our bidding as requuested. They are living and breathing animals with their own agenda, and needs.
Looking at the video on Sit Means Sit website, you put into words what bothers me. They don't act like "normal" dogs with free spirits. http://sitmeanssit.com Granted, being a free spirit can be dangerous at times, especially when off-leash, but it just seemed too perfect. I like mine with some mischievous attitude... like when we come home and Darby starts barking at us, wiggling all over and using our legs as weave sticks. I'd never make it as a professional trainer  |
Bosley's mom wrote: You get what you pay for. Well yes, but my certified behaviorist charged $150 for a two -three hour consultation and then $95 for 6 one hour sessions. Since December I have spent less than $300 plus the cost of the book and my time A behaviorist studies dog behavior. That is what they do. They know dogs, and why dogs do what they do what they do. That is what you need for Luna. A behaviorist needs to let changes slowly have impact on the dog...and the program tweaked as required. That helps makes the behavior change, permenently. They also really teach you how to see what you need to see and need to change. The difference being my guys went to trainers for puppy classes and learned sit, stay etc etc. Mr Newfie puppy goes to the behaviorist - my husband is learning how to teach the puppy self control, as well as sit stay etc You are looking for a "hands-on" approach which normally means a quick fix....something where you can see results in a short time...that will not happen unless the dog suffers. A trainer knows a little but about dog behavior...enough to train a dog to do something. A trainer is not as knowledgeable about why a dog does what it does, and then the best way to change that. A trainer trains. A trainer does not necessarily change behavior. A very simple and vague example could be a barky dog. A behaviorist will figure out why the dog barks, and then put a plan together to change the dog's barking behavior, using the dog's naturally development canine instincts and working with them. .... While a trainer can show you how to train the dog to stop barking on a cue (or command).., but does nothing to change the dog's barking problem. Or how to use punishment like citronella collors, shock collors, spray bottles etc...but the reason for or actual solving the barking is not addressed. See the difference? |
Quote: Yuou mentioned that your dream is to have your dogs well-mannered and obedient...Heck, I think that is everyone's dream...I know that my two both have issues.
Amen to that sister I need to do a lot more work with my hooligans. Mine are NOT angels. Mine each have issues too and while they are not the best trained, we do live in relative harmony. We found ways to make it work so everyone can co-exist. Jaci, you have six dogs. Females, to boot! Anyone who says that they can do sitmeanssit-style training with six (of their own) dogs at the same time is either a liar or a magician! You're doing something right because you're still alive to talk about it, lol. It's tough to keep the attention of multiple dogs at once, especially in the home. Even if you've trained them individually and they're rocks, you put them together and they're different dogs. I don't expect perfection at home. I just want harmony and relative well manneredness, which we have but it wasn't without our fair share of fights along the way. It happens. However, I think it's a heck of a lot easier to take a "this too shall pass" attitude when it's behind you and you're looking back at it. While it's happening, it's probably one of the most stressful things you'll have to go through with your dogs. It takes away all relaxing at home because you're on edge and on watch constantly. I think I sat on the edge of the couch for almost 2 months, ready to spring up to intervene at every weird look between the boys, every change in body language. It sucks. A lot. It's a terrible thing to go through. I don't know if you're doing this already, but I'd suggest keeping short leads on them in the house so it's easier to get control of them without getting yourself too involved and getting bit. We kept 12 inch leads on the boys all the time (under our supervision) during their rough time and it helped a lot to have an easier means of leading them away from each other when it was necessary. It's great for even before anything happens because you just walk them away from each other and diffuse the situation. |
| I don't mind the cost of the behaviorist; the trainer isn't any cheaper. Money is not my issue. What I want is more than a 2 hour meeting with my dogs. I'd LOVE to start with a 2 hour meeting that Kerry described, followed by 6 one hours sessions over 6 weeks. I just don't feel that phone calls will suffice. I'm already being shown by my one meeting with the trainer, body language I'd never noticed before. If I don't notice it, how can I tell a behaviorist over the phone that my dog is doing it? |
ButtersStotch wrote: I don't know if you're doing this already, but I'd suggest keeping short leads on them in the house so it's easier to get control of them without getting yourself too involved and getting bit. We kept 12 inch leads on the boys all the time (under our supervision) during their rough time and it helped a lot to have an easier means of leading them away from each other when it was necessary. It's great for even before anything happens because you just walk them away from each other and diffuse the situation.
Our trainer did suggest this; I have to get the shorter leads though. We tried it with regular leashes and they got caught up. And in Joan Donaldson's book, she suggests a "dog fight kit" in the house of things to help you break up a fight if you have to. I need to get that stuff too. |
| Hi,
I feel for you being in this predicament and do agree changing the behavior and desensitizing them takes time. Something that's viewed positively for even a min should be praised then increased by a mere min the next day, and the next..and so on..always end on a good note before anything happens. As a special ed teacher, currently working with children with autism my experiences with children or animals are very similar in some ways. It does take months to change behaviors, consistency from everyone involved and positive reinforcement. ( I view things by minutes and increase it very slowly) I mentioned I also do dog behavioral consulting when time permits. I use the same strategy with non verbal children and animals. That is - just watch and observe, learn their body language and signals and become aware of anacedents - precursors to what causes them to react, what are the triggers, what stresses them out as well as what motivates them. I don't interfere with anything at first, but just observe. (Saying, that I also want to say even behaviorist don't have all the answers as there are many factors that come into play and each dog just like each child is an individual.) They have to get to know the dogs through observation before they can give advice. Children with autism can sometimes take up to a year before you really get to know them. One little fellow I work with, I've come so intuned with his body language I am aware of slight changes that may not be noticable to others such as fist clenching, or his body posture even if he doesn't verbalize anxiety. I can redirect him or take a break. You have the advantage where once you become aware of Tonks and Luna's body language, you will as their mom have the potential to diffuse any situations before they escalate info fights. Panda (after his honeymoon period) could have filled a page with things he needed to be desensitized to. I worked on one thing at a time - picked a priority and slowly worked on it. I spent the first three months just sitting on the floor in a room with him at the other end and let him approach me. Although, I realize your situation is different as Panda was a rescue with a sad history while Tonks and Luna have lived the good life with you. With three dogs in the household, I remember the first year where I'd grab chairs, blankets, ect when Ole Blue would try to attack Panda. He too has his own issues with the newcomer as he had been isolated in someone's yard the first year of his life. I realized the importance of being pro-active and I sound like a broken record but I was constantly watching the body language and avoided any triggers in my homes. Things that some not familiar with dogs may not have been aware of, such as blocking doorways, food, toys, could be triggers and anacedents to fights. I made sure that nothing was left lying around and I was constantly watching. Those that have well adjusted dogs don't have to worry about these potential triggers but for others that had dogs that fight it's better to remove them until the fights no longer occur. I remember telling my sister to move out of a doorway and she rolled her eyes at me. Panda was on one side, Blue on the other wanting her attention and no escape for either of them to avoid direct eye contact nor an escape route as she was blocking the doorway. The battle was on. It only took that one time for my sister to believe me when I'd say "move out of the doorway". At home by myself it was much easier to be aware when the dogs would be in situations when they could avoid face to face contact. If I saw a potential situation I would simply get up and walk around my house so the dogs could reposition themselves and avoid conflict. Pro-active always. I mentioned in another post my two arms out - Meaning if both dogs wanted my attention I would open up my arms so each dog could go to "their" side for a pat and not be side by side facing me. Both dogs acknowledged Merlin as boss and would simply move away if he wanted my attention. In some situations two dogs will fight and one will give the surrender position (belly up) and thus will show submissiveness towards the other dog. Supposedly the submissive dog will then acknowledge the other is boss over him/her and the next time they meet will acknowlege the "superiority of the other. However ,if the other dog refuses to back down and both want the top spot the battles continue. I saw it happening in my own household where Ole Blue was unwilling to give up his spot to Panda in the heirachy and thus tried to attack him every chance he got. Panda would always avoid conflict , lower his eyes and move quickly away - thus needing an escape route -(why it was important for doorways not to be blocked in my house). Just become observant and write down situations where fights occurred and the precursors before - you may then start to become aware of a pattern with your own dogs and may be able to avoid the situation in the future. What worked for me may not be what works for Tonks and Luna but if you keep a journal of behaviors you'll be able to eventually see a pattern of their behavior and potential triggers and then how to work on those. A social dog will acknowledge the belly up and in canine rules leave the dog alone, an aggressive dog will break the rules and continue the attack. It took aprox a year of constant work and vigilance to change behaviors in my household, but I continue to never let my guard down even after 4 years. There is now harmony and all live in peaceful co-existance and they all sleep within inches of each other. I still continue to avoid the triggers however - food is the biggest one. In an nutshell, I feel all the hard work that I put in did pay off as Panda especially is in all honesty the best dog I've ever had the pleasure of sharing my life with. Blue continues to be grumpy with other dogs and Merlin is still his rambunctious self but overall they are all well behaved and life is peaceful in my home. There is a light at the end of the tunnel for you - I am confident you'll find a solution as you seem to be trying very hard. Perhaps with both Tonks and Luna, neither willing to let the other gain advantage over them (in their eyes) and both are vying for top spot. Luna may be the one that is doing the fighting but perhaps Tonks is causing her anxiety that is not apparent at this time. Althought the barking at "nothing" concerns me and I'd also ask for a second opinion at the vets to rule out anything medically. I didn't want to give out any advice as so many things could be going on and it's too difficult to know unless we could observe the dogs first hand. However, we're all trying to help and come up with something you can work with. I know some other members in the past came across this situation and one dog had to be rehomed (I know that's the last solution for you) but both did really well after the separation. Anyhow we're all here for you and there's been some wonderful advice from all the members here. I'll be thinking of you! Marianne |
| Donaldson is fabulous. A couple of other excellent resources:
Patricia McConnell - The Other End of the Leash Suzanne Clothier - Bones Would Rain From the Sky I think the reason you keep getting questioned over and over about your choice of training methods is that the first tenet of training is to not make the situation worse, and the method has the potential to do just that, starting with redirected aggression. Nor, as Nicole and I think Kerry as well point out, does it cut to the underlying problem, rather it merely, if successful (success being defined as aggression towards her sister - because that appears to be the crux of it, correct? - ceases), supresses behavior, which means the causes simmer under the surface and can reappear in other ways. The behavior may be gone, so our lives are less stressful, but the stress on the dog herself can be immense since the underlying problem has not been addressed. Whatever Luna is or is not, she is fundamentally a dog behaving like a dog. Even while her behavior is unacceptable to us, to her it is a perfectly logical canine way to deal with whatever it is she is dealing with. Now think about how you would respond if you were going about your business and your husband zapped you for behaviors he didn't like. He doesn't explain to you that your humming at the breakfast table makes him nuts - he just zaps. That shocks you out of humming. What the h&^^? After a while, if he zaps you every time you hum, you'll probably get the connection, so you'll stop. Now he expands that to other behaviors he doesn't like. What do you learn? You probably learn to stop doing those behaviors but also - do you trust him? Are you comfortable around him? He may be happy because you're afraid to do anything that might get you zapped, so you sit there almost catatonically and don't nag him. Or you rush up to greet him when he appears and try to cater to his every whim in hopes of staving off the zapping, hoping you don't do anything to inadvertently set him off. But how do you feel? About him? About your life? Or maybe you're a different kind of personality and even though you can't see the zapper and can only suspect it's him, the next time he zaps you, you deck him. Or maybe you think it's Luna who's zapping you, so you attack her. That doesn't even touch on the ethical questions. I think most of us who work with dogs in some capacity or another have at some point or another had to look at ourselves in the mirror and ask: at what cost? To the dog and to our relationship with that dog. If it's to earn a title (a human predilection and of no importance to the dog's wellbeing), then inflicting pain and fear can never be justified. If it's to save a dog's life...? At what cost and what are the alternatives? I know there are trainers that have used e-collars successfully. And while that wouldn't be my choice, chances are there are people out there who are accomplished enough to do so with minimum damage to the dog and situations that perhaps justify their use. But here is the million dollar question: you're handed a powerful tool with the potential for abuse - it they tell you to expect whining, whimpering and screaming, then it's more than the equivalent of a tap on the dog's shoulder, right? - are you a good enough trainer to use it effectively and humanely? And the corrollary: do you trust anyone else with your dogs to that degree? I know you're in a tough spot and I know you've been doing your research and aren't just jumping into this lightly. But please also understand why a number of us feel so darn uneasy with the situation. Kristine |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I don't mind the cost of the behaviorist; the trainer isn't any cheaper. Money is not my issue. What I want is more than a 2 hour meeting with my dogs. I'd LOVE to start with a 2 hour meeting that Kerry described, followed by 6 one hours sessions over 6 weeks. I just don't feel that phone calls will suffice. I'm already being shown by my one meeting with the trainer, body language I'd never noticed before. If I don't notice it, how can I tell a behaviorist over the phone that my dog is doing it?
I agree totally - it has to be in person - reminds me of the pet psychic who does telephone consultations.
What I didn't mention though is the f/u sessions are in a class situation with other dogs and we are still getting so much out of it - when we go. give the book a chance and try to find a CU trainer in your area - as the saying go Priceless!! |
And Kristine hit the nail on the head (in a very professional way) the thing I didn't like about the old trainer was that although my dog was learning to behave - she was losing some of her personality and was becoming more reserved. now who wants a reserved sheepdog 
The behaviorist (and remember the first trainer called herself a behaviorist), the real behaviorist, also made me see that my other dog was also suffering from the trainer's methods although I didn't see it - he is one big happy party guy. We ar emuch happier now - things aren't perfect, but you live with what happens as it happens. ANd I know my dog isn't agressive - she is fearful and needs to learn to handle things in a better manner (we all have siblings we would say needed bettter coping skills as well I am sure  ) |
| okay, I'm going to try and clarify...
I am NOT using a shock collar training system. The training I am taking my beloved dogs too will NOT associate undersireable behaviors with a jolt of eletronically delivered pain. Shock Collar vs. Tens Unit Collar I have held the tens unit in my hand while it was activated; it does not hurt! And it is activated not when they do something bad or undesireable. Instead, I give a command like "Sit!" and press the button, delivering the impulse. Its like I am standing next to them and giving a tap on the head. At my last training session, my trainer observed that my dogs don't always focus in on the activity we are doing. They are distracted. She said to take a lock of their hair and give a gentle tug, and say "Hey; we're working !" Thats what the tens unit does; only I don't have to be standing next to my dogs to tug that lock of hair. How is this going to help with thier problematic behavior? Luna does not view me as the boss; or if she does, she sure is challenging it. This training will make her acknowledge both Adam and myself as the dominant beings in the house. Could I get the same results through positive reinforcement obedience training? I could... if Luna would participate. We had to stop going to our obedience lessons a couple of weeks short of our last class, as Luna had lost all interest in listening to myself of Adam. Treat training wasn't working; she would size us up; check out the treat and you could see her think "nah; its not worth it' Now; I could starve her, so that she'd be dying for that treat, and would do anything to please us to get it. But that would be cruel and inhumane. This training program my girls are enrolled it, with the electrical collars (not shock collars) is used by the Humane Society to help "unadoptable" dogs work through thier issues so that they can be placed in homes. If its good enough for the Humane Society, I cannot see it being painful or in-humane. I may still have to employ a behaviorist (if I can find one that will work with me for more than one hands-on session) in addition to this training. That's why I am reading the books by Jean Donaldson; to try and focus in our the root of the aggression (which I now think after a long night of reading isn't aggression at all, but resource guarding). And Jean offers up some excellent training suggestions to help deal with our guarding issue, that I can use with my girls... but it works if they can do a Sit or Down Stay. So one more time, I find myself needing the girls to be able to do thier commands, to even be able to help them work through thier resource guarding. |
| I am neither a trainer nor a behaviorist and I well understand my limitations in such matters. I am truly sorry that you are having these struggles. I also understand how difficult this is: you wanted a happy household with two happy dogs and you have such a struggle.
I absolutely agree that you should vigorously investigate any possible medical causes for Luna's behavior. Growling at nothing is troublesome. Either she's having serious problems or there is something amiss in your house that you aren't aware of. I don't know much about the tens method you are using but from your description, I understand the intention of it as a method of focussing your dog's attention on you rather than on whatever is distracting or provoking the animal. I firmly believe that not all strategies work with all individuals, be they dogs or be they humans. I personally think that positive reinforcement is the better way to go whenever possible, but sometimes it simply isn't the right strategy. For example, if your dog (or child) ever ran suddenly into oncoming traffic, you might need to take forceful enough action that would indeed frighten the dog (or child) to prevent serious injury at that second, and worry later about how to prevent such another occurence the next time. I have used squirt bottles to stop my dogs barking. I did not do this to punish them nor did they seem to feel punished or frightened or injured. They liked it--and indeed would try to get me to spray into their mouths, even though a full bowl of water was right next to them. I did it to distract them from their focus on barking and it worked well. They did know whether I had a squirt bottle in my hand or not and behaved accordingly, until they grew up a little and got over their barky phase. I am terrible about using a clicker for training. As stupid as it sounds, I am not coordinated enough. What I stumbled upon instead is snapping my fingers. My fingers are always there and I never have to search my pockets for one thing. However, instead of the snap being the reward, it serves to bring my dog's attention to me--which is what I am after. This is followed by praise--the reward-- when they turn their attention to me, the (first) desired behavior. I do the same thing with vocal sounds--sometimes the tsch! like Cesar Milan, sometimes a deep "nuuuuu" just like my dad, depending on the situation. I find it focusses my dog's attention and conveys disapproval when necessary. Sophie still will go after Sherman from time to time. Never any blood drawn that I have seen. He stands up to her sometimes--and is clearly much larger and stronger, but much more laid back. This seems to be a matter of resource guarding--the resource most likely to provoke Sophie is attention/affection from a human. We are working on this: the best way to disrrupt this that I have found is to either leave the room or send ALL dogs out of the room. This is one reason that my dogs understand the command "Git" delivered with a forcefully pointed finger at the end of a fully extended arm, moving sharply and emphatically in the direction I desire them to go. Sophie will also growl and snarl when the dogs are fed if I am not in the room. (My husband does most of the feeding as I leave early and return late each day). This is not a reflection of Sherman or Archie going after her food or water but rather her perception that they might. The fact that she behaves differently for me than she does for my husband shows that she, like all my dogs (and children) know who means business and who does not. BTW, I am far, far, far less likely to raise my voice than my husband. Neither of us would ever physically hurt our dogs or intentionally frighten them. |
| What you have to remember too are these 2 girls are only 6 months old. There attention span is only a few seconds before they are bored or ignore you.
With relation to the obedience training you were doing with Luna, shame you cut it short, maybe is was too repetative and she was bored with the same thing week in and week out. She might need more variety and stimulation there to keep her interested and focused on you with new things in technique and commands being brought in to her training routine to keep her thinking and working with you. Just on a side note, shock collars and the other one "Tens Unit Collar" devices like that have been banned in Australia for years, anyone caught with using them is charged and fined with cruelty. I personally think there is better ways to resolve behaviour issues in dogs, it might take a lot more work and longer but using something like that on 6 month old is IMO just not on. Luna is just being a dog in her mannerismn, trying to be top dog in the house and she needs more challenges and goals set and achieved to keep her occupied and thinking. That way she is not going to be so interested in attacking the other one. Again they are only 6 months old, no brains yet, I always say they don't grow brains till at least 2 sometimes 3. Yes the behaviour needs to be sorted for peace and harmony in the house, but also remember at that age the attention span is limited.
Jills (Butterstoch) suggestion of the leads for awhile in the house is a good resolution for the time being, that way you HAVE full controll on both girls and I would go further and let one out in the yard to potty and play and spend some time individually with each one. Bring in your obedience commands outside with the one that is out there as well as contructive play then swap them over. Makes each one feel special and I think also with maturity they will mellow and grow out of it as far as the fighting between the two of them. If they have to sleep and eat apart for awhile then so be it, even if that means in the house you put one away and fuss over the other then again swap them over, then hopefully work on having the two together in the house with lead controll, eventually working up to no leads then progress slowly to the two of them being outside. All this takes time, I don't think Luna is aggressive I just think she is Dominant of the two bitches and staking her claim in the house to that affect. JMO Firstly also before any of this I would definately rule out any medical problems that could be associated with her behaviour. That is I would definately have her eyes checked and also her hearing to see if she is hearing in both ears as well. I cannot understand your vet saying to do the training firstly before ruling out firstly a medical problem that may be contributing to how she is. |
| I know i've said it several times before, but I will say it again;
Thanks to everyone for thier input and advice and personal experiences. Its all been REALLY helpful. I love this messageboard! |
| Hi Again,
I saw the photo of your two sleeping angels taken only a month ago and couldn't help but think" The photo speaks a thousand words".It's obvious they do care for one another or else they would not be sleeping in those positions. I'm glad you're listening to all the wonderful advice given so far and sending good thoughts your way. Tonks and Luna 
Marianne |
| Okay; we had our first training session on Wednesday, and have been using the collars since then.
WOW what a revealing day Wednesday was! I have to say I am VERY impressed with our trainer. She noticed all sorts of things in the way the girls behaved, from thier body language and their actions, that tells us SO MUCH about the issues we are having. The best news? Luna isn't aggressive. She isn't even dominant. Our trainer, Kate, had us each take a dog and do excersizes with her. Tonks did everything we asked, which we expected. She's very eager to please. But Luna? She spent most of her time straining on her leash trying to get to Tonks! She isn't dominant, and she isn't aggressive; she's dependant on her sister. And to a certain degree, Tonks displayed signs of needing to be with Luna too. So; we have two dogs that turn to one another before they look to us. All the books I read had warned me it could happen, and it did happen, and I never even noticed! So now the outlook for our training is alot brighter. Going forward we will seperate the girls for their training and some other activities, so they look to us as their support, instead of each other. Here's an example: Today I took Tonks with me to run errands and meet a couple of friends for lunch. And the entire time I trained with her collar. Meanwhile; Adam worked with Luna; he took her for a long walk and then spent the day playing with her and doing some training. He told me later that Luna actually walked in a "heel" position for 75% of their 45 minute walk!!!! Tomorrow I'll take Luna with me to the pet store to get some supplies, and Adam will take Tonks on the walk We've both noticed a tremendous difference in Luna, in this short time. Sounds stupid, but she's happier. We've had no growling since Wednesday. She and Tonks are playing alot more. And starting yesteday, she's been offering me her belly to rub; something she hasn't done since she was a little puppy! Tonks is just Tonks. Thank goodness for that! |
| Thank god the news is good news, and it can all be fixed..
Good luck for future training |
| This is great news!
Had you been training them together a lot or always going for rides/walks together??? Maybe you'll be on your way to having two dogs that enjoy each other all the time.
Our trainer in our very first puppy class had stressed the importance of working with "The Twins" one-on-one. She told us to make sure we separated them for activities/walks/training or they might become too dependent on each other. We were told that if one were to die, the other would be left a basket case. So my husband and I would rotate dogs each night as we play-groomed them... I trained them separately... sometimes one would stay home when we took the other for a ride... other times they would go together. While they play extremely well together and have never fought (they do this sisterly and goofy snap, snap, snap of their mouths to each other sometimes), they can be apart.
Good luck to you! |
| i am so happy for you i have learned alot of this topic.. i just got a pup and don't want any problems in the pack |
| okay; an update.
We are about a month into our new training, and what a HUGE difference in our home! Fights have mostly stopped. They'll get a bit growly, and I'll tell them to stop and they do! Luna is a dream. Walks in a heel, and even does it off leash. She's eager to obey all her commands with and without her collar! She's gone from guarding everything; her food, her toys and her bones from Tonks, to sharing them with her! Tonight I watched them race around the house, playing a new game they'd made up where one had a bone, and the other would chase. Then that dog would get the bone, and the other would chase. The whole time I was braced for Luna to start a fight, and it never happened. I'm overwhelmed with relief and joy! Tonks has not been as easy a transition. But oh my; I've learned so much about her; its like I never really knew who she was before. We thought Tonks was eager to please; that she was our "dumb but pretty" dog in comparison to her criminal master mind of a sister. We couldn't have been more mistaken. Tonks it seems, is so darned smart that she knew enough to play at being dumb! SHE'S our Alpha, but in a laid back way. So once we began training in earnest, she didn't want to do it, and has set about trying to train us instead! An example. I'll tell Tonks to "sit"; every command is accompanied by pressing the button on the remote, activating the collar. So I say "sit" Tonks feels a little twitch, and she sits. At least thats how its supposed to work. Instead, I say "Sit" and Tonks slams her butt down so fast i don't have the chance to use the remote. I thought "what a good dog!" but the trainer explained that its Tonks trying to train us to NOT use the remote; because she subtly wants to maintain the Alpha role and not give it over to us. And sure enough, she was right. I thought "I'm not going to use the collar if Tonks doesn't need it" and within hours Tonks was not doing her commands. I'd say "sit" and she wasn't throwing her butt to the ground at break neck speed; she'd leave the room instead! Once Tonks realized we were onto her, it became an all-out war of wills. Tonks would do anything OTHER than the command! She became so willful, that I had to go back to crating her. She began to spite poop in the house, and on three occassions has eaten large pieces of our linoleum floor in the kitchen. I was begining to despair, and then we were due for a business trip that would take us out of town for 6 days. We decided to board Tonks and Luna with our trainer, and pay for them to be trained the entire time we were gone. Best decision we could have made. Luna made great progress; she loves learning new commands; it gives her "something to do". And it gave the trainer a really good understanding of the hard time we were having with Tonks. And while Tonks is still not 100% on board, she's doing much better. Its just got to be perseverance with her. She needs to know that Adam and I are Alphas, and that our will is law, and that she needs to obey. And its finally working. Yesterday I had my first walk with her were she was in a heel 100% of the time, without my having to ask for it. It was such a joy for me, I almost cried. In fact, every block or so I sat down and gave her a big hug, and praised her. Today I did gardening in the front yard, which isn't fenced in. In the past, I'd have had to leave Tonks and Luna in the house, as they bark too much at the people and pets that walk through our neighborhood. But today they were able to join me, and if I saw people coming I could tell them to sit, and they would. They didn't bark, they just sat til the people would pass by..... and that was without thier collars! I'm overjoyed at our results. And to think a few weeks ago I thought we were going to have to get rid of one of our dogs!!!!!! |
| I am happy for you, that you are enjoying your dogs. I must admit, however, however, that I feel quite sad for your dogs. |
Bosley's mom wrote: I am happy for you, that you are enjoying your dogs. I must admit, however, however, that I feel quite sad for your dogs.
ditto |
| This is such great news! I suppose the temptation when there is a problem is to think of the worst right away. But I am so, so glad that you were able to perservere and work through this. I know it's still a process and will take a little while, but you know what the result will be and are having such totally amazing progress. Congratulations!! I couldn't be happier for you!! |
| Don't feel sad for my dogs; they lead VERY rich lives and aren't being harmed in any way. Sad would have been seperating them when they are the best of friends, or worse, being misled into euthanizing them.
I actually had trainers telling my I would possibly have to euthanize Luna. Euthanize a dog that seemed aggressive and vicious without reason, when with more strident training, she's as happy as can be. The woman that runs our holistic pet food store is against the use of "shock collars" but knows me well enough to know that I'd NEVER hurt my dogs. So when I came in with the girls wearing what appeared to be traditional shock collars, rather than lecture me on the evils of electric collars, with a very open mind she asked "My I try one?" I took off one of the girls collars and she held it in her hand while it was activated. She was surprised and said "It tickles a little". I explained that what might feel like a tickle was done in conjunction with the command, so it was like saying "Sit!" and tapping my dogs shoulder, to remind them that I need them to focus on the task at hand. And while one activation 'tickles", its probably sort of annoying after a few repeated ones. So at first the dog does the command rather than be annoyed. Then the dog learns to do the command with the first sensation, and lastly the dog is so in the habit of following your command that the collars are no longer used. I know not everyone can order one of these collars and hold it in thier hand, to prove that they are not cruel. But if you have the chance, if you see someone using it, ask if you can try it out. Rather than be sure that this is so horrible, see for yourself what I am trying to explain. Technology has come a long way since the introduction of the "Shock Collar"; much to the benefit of my dogs!!!! |
| I am so glad that you found something that works for you and the dog. You are to be commended for researching and trying- that is being a responsible dog owner. Not all methods work for all people or dogs. My new motto for the month..."question everything and then go with your gut." |
| I have always been against shock collars too. But after reading your posts and talking with you at Sheepiepalooza I know you are going out of your way to make your puppies happy well adjusted girls. I'm glad to know that technology has improved on training or shock collars. My mom has 2 oes and she was thinking about using a shock collar. I was so against it. I asked her to try it on herself first. My crazy mother put the shock collar on her own neck and on the highest setting shocked herself. The shock collar is now somewhere hidden in the garage. THANK GOD!!! |
| I think the key here is that your Mom TRIED it, and so did Darth Snuggle. Your mom's was obviously a higher voltage, more painful one, whereas the one Darth is using is clearly much calmer, and like she said, more akin to a tickle or a little gentle poke. |
WCLARKE wrote: My mom has 2 oes and she was thinking about using a shock collar. I was so against it. I asked her to try it on herself first. My crazy mother put the shock collar on her own neck and on the highest setting shocked herself.
The shock collar is now somewhere hidden in the garage. THANK GOD!!! OH MY GOD!!!!! You NEVER use the highest setting!!!!! They go from 1 - 100; Tonks responds with the collar set as low as a 12, and as high as a 20. Luna (Adam likes to call her "cool hand Luke") responds anywhere from a 20 to a 40. Every dog is different. But our trainer warned us against ever going over a 60. Makes me wonder why it goes all the way to 100.....? That's why I urge people; don't just buy the collar. Its really important that this kind of training be implemented with the help of a professional trainer. |
Mel & Tucker wrote: I think the key here is that your Mom TRIED it, and so did Darth Snuggle. Your mom's was obviously a higher voltage, more painful one, whereas the one Darth is using is clearly much calmer, and like she said, more akin to a tickle or a little gentle poke.
EXACTLY right; if I had tried this collar and it had hurt? I'd have had to try another avenue to "save" my dogs. I'd NEVER do anything to hurt my girls. I have wanted these dogs for over 20 years, and having them now, I know it is as close to having children as I will ever get. Their emotional and physical well being is my first priority. |
| After meeting you and meeting your dogs, I know that you have only the best interest of your kids. I am glad the training is going so well. They are two great sheepie pups. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: Don't feel sad for my dogs; they lead VERY rich lives and aren't being harmed in any way. into euthanizing them.
You cannot fathom how I feel about any dog that is misunderstood for beign a dog, and then manipulated cruelly like a little robot. These are 7/8 month old dogs that should be running around learnign how to be fun-loving creatures and allowed to make mistakes and learn by them. You can call it what you like, but they are "elevtric collors" . The dogs are going to be lving lives full of stress. Anytime there is a deterent that is beyound control, it cause s stress. That is what you are doign. And the mention of your dog controlling you by doing what she is asked, is just plain wrong. Dogs are not trying to take over the world. You ask eh rot sit, and she does, and she still gets xzapped???That is a loosing situatuion. Your trainer is totally clueless, or you are misunderstanding. The simple premitting of electrically shock devies to be supported and thier use applauded on this forum has destressed me for a long time. It is obvious you love your dogs, and I dont' think you are really convined this si teh right thing to do. Or if you are, then you shouldn't be. By shipping your dogs off to get trained, and then again when it doesn't work, and then trying to convicne other people that it works, is just plain wrong. And Ron, here is another one you can edit, or delete or whatever, I am always for the dogs, and that is not a popular belief here.. |
| Honestly, I don't see how using this method could possibly work... I think possibly it's improving the situation because you are more focused on it now, into a routine and have your attention completely on the dogs.
(not that I think you weren't paying attention to them before, it's obvious you love them and want what's best for them) I cannot fathom how using a negative method can provide positive results. |
| I dont agree with using shock collars either. I know that all the best intentions are in place but still. We would never do this with our own children why with our beloved pets. Yes you are getting the results you want but still. My husband was in the USAF and helped with training the patrol dogs. He said at that time, it may have changed by now, but they never hit, shocked or did anything like that to the dogs. He trained Cheyenne with the same method he used in the USAF and she is the best dog to walk, etc. I wish more people would use his methods. |
Willowsprite wrote: Honestly, I don't see how using this method could possibly work... I think possibly it's improving the situation because you are more focused on it now, into a routine and have your attention completely on the dogs.
(not that I think you weren't paying attention to them before, it's obvious you love them and want what's best for them) I cannot fathom how using a negative method can provide positive results. All negative/positive training aside, if it's like a tap on the shoulder, than why not tap on the shoulder instead? I don't really understand what the philosophy is as to why they need an external physical force to pay attention to you? I'm not finger pointing or attacking, it just seems like the focus that the zap is supposed to provide is the very thing that you may want the dog to learn positively in its formative years. Was the difficulty that you were having because the two of them were all over the place and wouldn't focus on you? |
| When I was a kid, my dad and uncle raised and trained hunting dogs: beagles, coon hounds, german short haired pointers. At one point, they decided that with a particular dog, they needed to try a shock collar. I don't remember which dog they used it on--this was over 30 years ago. They gave it up in a fairly short time for two reasons, and I suspect, a third.
1. Eventually, the dog only responded if it was wearing that particular collar. As field dogs, my father did not want to keep this collar on the dog all the time. He was very concerned about the collar getting hung up on brush or a fence, etc. They used collars only so that the dogs could be identified if they were lost in a hunt: this was pre-microchip days. 2. The collar was only effective if the dog was in range. See above: as field dogs, they ranged far away from their humans. Ultimately, I think my father decided that the collar was inhumane. He worried about having to escalate the shocks and how it would affect the dog. My father was fairly strict about discipline with his children and his dogs and not averse to spanking us kids when we were small. His disclipline methods would be considered harsh by most today. But the collar made him uncomfortable. Of course, technology has changed in the last decades. I believe you when you say that the 'shock' is more of a tingle. Will you use the collar her whole life? I'd also worry that down the road, your pup will develop a tolerance and you might find yourself needing to use higher settings--higher than you are comfortable with now. If you don't have other training tools in place, how will you handle the situation? |
tgir wrote: When I was a kid, my dad and uncle raised and trained hunting dogs: beagles, coon hounds, german short haired pointers. At one point, they decided that with a particular dog, they needed to try a shock collar. I don't remember which dog they used it on--this was over 30 years ago. They gave it up in a fairly short time for two reasons, and I suspect, a third.
My Dad trained Brittany's and English Pointers growing up as well, and also purchased a shock collar. I don't think he even had an opportunitity to try it because my little brother was playing with it and shocked himself. It wasn't even turned up high, but my brother screamed bloody murder and cried for a long time. I guess my dad realized that even if it doesn't hurt, it scares you. |
| I have to say this is very enlightening. Everyone has an opinion and no one gets down on them for disagreeing. Questions them, yes, some agree and some not.
This is a decision that someone had to make to make life better for BOTH her dogs. That is what everyone wants, right? A lot of people here have invisible fences and yet I don't see anyone getting down on them because of this. This is the use of shock collars. The dog learns (by getting shocked) that if they don't back off quick enough they are going to get shocked. I had one once many years ago and the dog learned that if he ran fast enough he could get through without being shocked. I am not agreeing or disagreeing of the methods used here. I do disagree that the dogs are being harmed. It seems to me from what I am reading that the dogs are happier. I did meet these dogs and they did not seem to be mistreated or have any ill effects from this training method. I respect you for being pro-active instead of re-active. |
BatonRougeSheepies wrote: After meeting you and meeting your dogs, I know that you have only the best interest of your kids. I am glad the training is going so well. They are two great sheepie pups.
it was great to meet you all as well! I love your "Mafia"!!!! |
Simon's Mom wrote: II am not agreeing or disagreeing of the methods used here. I do disagree that the dogs are being harmed. It seems to me from what I am reading that the dogs are happier. I did meet these dogs and they did not seem to be mistreated or have any ill effects from this training method.
Well, I'll respectfully disagree. What she described re Tonks behavior should be setting off major warning bells for anyone who has done even a cursorary study of dog behavior and it saddened me more that I can say. Pam, if you ever have issues that are so hard to deal with that you think you need to resort to the kinds of methods discussed, call me and I'll help you work through them in a way the dogs can understand.  to the boys. It was great to see both of them at 'looza Garfunkle has really blossomed. I know he's not an easy dog but you're doing a great job with him.
Kristine |
| Bosley's Mom;
please read every page of this post before expressing your opinions. I have been very clear on why I have had to do this, and on all of my research. I do not have my girls in e-collars to train them to "sit". I have gone to this length because of vicious fighting that was going on between them. My vet was telling me to be prepared to have to re-home one, or worse, euthanize one because it might be "psychotic". I have an Idea; I'll llet nature run its course, and when Luna attacks and mauls a small child, I'll say "but I didn't want to hurt my dogs; I wanted them to be free and fun loving". That will put that parent at ease, and will keep my dog from the gas chanmber. I should have seen that from the start. You have no right to judge me, until you live in my home with my dogs. When you are bitten on multiple occassions trying to break up their fighting, THEN you can tell me how to raise them. When you have to sob yourself to sleep, thinking one of your "babies" might be headed for an early death, then you can tell me how to manage my dogs. Luna and Tonks have not had any fights in 4 weeks. They used to fight 3 and 4 times a week. I call this "success". You call it cruel. To me, cruel is allowing my dogs to hurt one another, and eventually people and other dogs. You are obviously very passionate about the well being of dogs; and that is to be commended. But you should try educating yourself more on the subject, before you criticize. Bosley's mom wrote: Darth Snuggle wrote: Don't feel sad for my dogs; they lead VERY rich lives and aren't being harmed in any way. into euthanizing them. You cannot fathom how I feel about any dog that is misunderstood for beign a dog, and then manipulated cruelly like a little robot. These are 7/8 month old dogs that should be running around learnign how to be fun-loving creatures and allowed to make mistakes and learn by them. You can call it what you like, but they are "elevtric collors" . The dogs are going to be lving lives full of stress. Anytime there is a deterent that is beyound control, it cause s stress. That is what you are doign. And the mention of your dog controlling you by doing what she is asked, is just plain wrong. Dogs are not trying to take over the world. You ask eh rot sit, and she does, and she still gets xzapped???That is a loosing situatuion. Your trainer is totally clueless, or you are misunderstanding. The simple premitting of electrically shock devies to be supported and thier use applauded on this forum has destressed me for a long time. It is obvious you love your dogs, and I dont' think you are really convined this si teh right thing to do. Or if you are, then you shouldn't be. By shipping your dogs off to get trained, and then again when it doesn't work, and then trying to convicne other people that it works, is just plain wrong. And Ron, here is another one you can edit, or delete or whatever, I am always for the dogs, and that is not a popular belief here.. |
Willowsprite wrote: I cannot fathom how using a negative method can provide positive results.
its because you are viewing it as a negavite method. Time and time again i have explained, these are NOT shock collars. They DO NOT HURT. THEY DO NOT HURT. I have worn them. If people would read the entire post, from page one to the end, they would see that this is NOT a traditional shock collar, but a medical device that any doctor would use on any human being. Its called a tens unit; google it. |
cheyennebuford wrote: I dont agree with using shock collars either. I know that all the best intentions are in place but still. We would never do this with our own children why with our beloved pets. Yes you are getting the results you want but still. My husband was in the USAF and helped with training the patrol dogs. He said at that time, it may have changed by now, but they never hit, shocked or did anything like that to the dogs. He trained Cheyenne with the same method he used in the USAF and she is the best dog to walk, etc. I wish more people would use his methods.
the method I am using is the same that is used to train police dogs and search and rescue dogs. Its the same method that they Humane Society has been using to make "un-adoptable" dogs capable of being put in homes. The Humane Society uses this method; that tells me its humane. Not cruel. Not mean. |
| I believe you've done a super job on every aspect of managing this issue, Darth Snuggle. I do not think you've used aversive training methods, I understand the difference between a shock collar and a TENS unit and I think it's a blessing that you were such a thorough and caring puppy-parent to hunt out the right solution for your unique issue. One size does not fit all. Congratulations, well-done! |
| okay; I want to post this in really big letters, so no one mis-understands:
I am not using shock collars on my dogs. The collars I am using has a tens unit on it; by its very nature it is not painful; please read the following: http://arthritis.about.com/od/assistive ... nsunit.htm or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcutan ... Stimulator and if you wanted to order one online, from a company that supplies training aids, its not even IN the shock collar category: http://www.pet-super-store.com/pet-supp ... g-collars/ its defined by retailers and manufacturers as a "training collar". If you go to the "shock collar" page, the dogtra model I am using is not there... because it is not a shock collar! I have tried postive re-inforcement training. We did two 6 week sessions. And not at a Petsmart; I went with a dog training school. And that was great for "sit" and "stay" and "come", but didn't do anything for "hey, don't fight viciously with your sibling!". I know this is a touchy subject; but I've been defending myself, my situation, and my decision for 8 pages at this point. PLEASE read some of what I have already written before attacking me and my choice. I liked this board alot up until now, as I felt it was a really warm and welcoming community. But I guess its only warm and fuzzy provided you do what everyone else thinks is correct, by their standards. I have received alot of private messages supporting what I am doing, from people that don't want to be involved in the public spectacle this is becoming. And I don't blame them; I'm wishing I had never posted here looking for help in my situation. I should have depended on my own ability to research and find the right answer, instead of hoping that someone here had gone through something similar, and would be willing to share their experiences with me. I was looking for help; instead I found alot of opinion but not alot of facts. I found some support, and I have been hammered with criticism. I'm sad that the fun is going out of OES.org for me. |
rdf wrote: I believe you've done a super job on every aspect of managing this issue, Darth Snuggle. I do not think you've used aversive training methods, I understand the difference between a shock collar and a TENS unit and I think it's a blessing that you were such a thorough and caring puppy-parent to hunt out the right solution for your unique issue. One size does not fit all. Congratulations, well-done!
Thank you so much. When Adam and I really despaired over our situation, we thought at the same time we were glad. If anyone else had gotten Luna, and she had exhibited the issues we had with her, she probably would have been euthanized. We felt like we were in a unique postion to be able to help; no kids, we work from home so can work our training with the dogs several times a day, and we while we aren't rich, we can afford the financial aspect of what we are trying to do. So despite it all, we both agree that we are lucky Luna ended up with us. It also helps that she and Tonks are both such sweet goofballs, when they aren't fighting with one another! |
| Perhaps, as I suggested before, it would be wise to simply end the discussion. If you are comfortable with your choice then just let it go. Why chose to continue a discussion for which there can be no consensus?
It is starting to feel like you aren't going to let it end til everyone agrees with you and believe me, that isn't going to happen. |
| hye i too am having major problems my derby just lost his 2 sisters last week and i feel for you now .. derby turn into an brat . i have had to pull him off the new puppy every nite.. so i do know what you are feeling. derby under so much stress sad thing the vet and trainer decided to put him on prozac poor guy now just is so quiet he doesn't eat or wnat to do anything but hoping like you this is tempory.. i know you are doing the right thing , it is so easy just to give up but hang in there |
Tasker's Mom wrote: Perhaps, as I suggested before, it would be wise to simply end the discussion. If you are comfortable with your choice then just let it go. Why chose to continue a discussion for which there can be no consensus?
It is starting to feel like you aren't going to let it end til everyone agrees with you and believe me, that isn't going to happen. I don't expect people to agree with me; but when I am asked questions, I like to answer. Afterall, it is a thread that I started, in hopes of finding help for my situation. Perhaps someone else might get some insight or help from what I have experienced. And as for letting it go; I was just posting an update to my situation, in the theread I started, about my dogs, when my choices and decisions came under fire. What I am doing is not for everyone. I know that. So i felt it important for those people that choose to not read the 9 pages written here to know that I did do my research, and to know what I had learned. |
| I feel a "once... at band camp" story coming out of my mouth soon. Although I don't play an instrument, ...and have never been in a band. I still think I can come up with something interesting. |
| Let's all play with our furry friends and laugh a bit. We are all passionate about our babies and their well being. That is why we are obsessed with this site. Deep breath everyone.
Did I tell everyone that I had to shave Abi?!? |
| i'm on another message board where things can get a little heated. Over there, I'm usually the one to diffuse the situation, and I usually do so by posting cute puppy pcitures of my girls. Any time something gets sensitive, someone will post "isn't it time for Allison to put up a cute puppy picture?"
somehow I don't think that will work here... |
| I had a placement director highly recommend an e-collar to me too. I won't be using one again...
It's too bad people at Sheepiepalooza didn't ask Allison if they could test this device on themselves. I'm not being sarcastic here... I honestly would have liked to see what it feels like. |
6Girls wrote: I had a placement director highly recommend an e-collar to me too. I won't be using one again...
It's too bad people at Sheepiepalooza didn't ask Allison if they could test this device on themselves. I'm not being sarcastic here... I honestly would have liked to see what it feels like. I had hoped some people would, to be honest. But I didn't want to force it on anyone either. I was very afraid that I'd get a cold reception at Sheepie Palooza because of this, so didn't want to bring it up. |
| It's too bad people at Sheepiepalooza didn't ask Allison if they could test this device on themselves.
I'm not being sarcastic here... I honestly would have liked to see what it feels like.[/quote] This might have worked. Face to face people are nicer, and both sides might have learned something. Man...why didn't someone think of this? |
| probably because people were overwhelmed, see if you had come you would have thought of it! |
DandAbi wrote: Let's all play with our furry friends and laugh a bit. We are all passionate about our babies and their well being. That is why we are obsessed with this site. Deep breath everyone.
Did I tell everyone that I had to shave Abi?!? Aw, you did? That sucks. Was that coat change just killing you? I feel your pain, have a look at my post: http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=20223 |
Bosley's mom wrote: I am happy for you, that you are enjoying your dogs. I must admit, however, however, that I feel quite sad for your dogs.
Allison I am sorry to say this but after reading the posts I have to agree with Nicole, I think you and your husband have missed the point somewhere alone the line, like Nicole I strongly disagree with the use of such devices and in my opinion they are a last resort for so called trainers who cannot cope with the situation they are faced with. In my opinion no sensible breeder would have sold you two pups the same age even though they come from a different mother, the confronation you now have was programmed right from the start and unfortunately you did not know how to handle it, I feel sorry for both the girls and sincerly hope you make the right decision. |
| I would agree that my breeder was irresponsible. But I still have to deal with those consequences.
I thought that enrolling the dogs at 12 weeks old in positive re-inforcement obedience training was the right thing to do. And when I told that trainer that my dogs were fighting, she didn't say "start training them sepreately" or "you need to establish yourself unquestionably as the alpha now, before it gets out of hand". No, she told me that I obviously didn't understand what "puppy play" was. My second trainer came to the house, to observe my girls, and left saying they were very good dogs, well trained and well behaved, and things would "sort themselves out". Of course, that was before Adam and I were bitten multiple times. So I had an irresponsible breeder, and two trainers that didn't know what they were talking about. I have been the victim of morons, it would seem. So I have found what I see to be an acceptible solution, and I am getting more than satisfactory results. The people that want to chime in and say they disagree with my choice of a solution don't ever do anything more than tell me that they are sad for my dogs. That I am cruel, or wrong, or mis-guided. So I ask you; give me an alternative. Tell me what I am suppsoed to be doing with my dogs. But tell me quiick, before they hurt one another, or me, or a stranger or their dog. I tried positive re-inforcement training under two different trainers. It didn't work for my dogs, to help with thier fighting. My point is; its easy for people to sit at their computers, and pass judgement when they do not have to deal with my "problem". I would appreciate it if someone that has dealt with my problem, in a fashion different from my own, would tell me to how they handled it. I would gladly take suggestions from someone that has personal experiences with this, and has succesfully resolved the issue using a method other than the one I am implementing. But people chiming in to say mean things don't really help anyone. I am not asking everyone to agree with me, as has been suggested. I am asking people to offer me specific answers to my dilema, other than the answer I have. At least thats what I was looking for when I started this thread. Once I started getting good results, I wanted to share them with the board. I like my training method, and at the risk of calling down a sh!t storm on my head, so do my dogs. When we went to the trainer today, it was the first time we'd seen her since before Sheepie Palooza, when my dogs had boarded with her for 6 days. I carefull watched my dogs behavior, looking for fear or anxiety at returning. Instead they raced over to my trainer, with thier butts wiggling like mad, and they jumped on her licking her face. They weren't afraid of her; and they didn't act like they dislike the training. I'm getting great results; my dogs are relaxed and happy; they play with one another without any aggression. In my book, that makes my solution a good one. It won't be good for other people; people that aren't in my position. But its doing the job for me. dairymaid wrote: Bosley's mom wrote: I am happy for you, that you are enjoying your dogs. I must admit, however, however, that I feel quite sad for your dogs. Allison I am sorry to say this but after reading the posts I have to agree with Nicole, I think you and your husband have missed the point somewhere alone the line, like Nicole I strongly disagree with the use of such devices and in my opinion they are a last resort for so called trainers who cannot cope with the situation they are faced with. In my opinion no sensible breeder would have sold you two pups the same age even though they come from a different mother, the confronation you now have was programmed right from the start and unfortunately you did not know how to handle it, I feel sorry for both the girls and sincerly hope you make the right decision. |
| I would love to have FIRST HAND testimony from someone who has successfully dealt with the same issues.
I know how to raise my brother's kids to be angels. |
Ron wrote: I would love to have FIRST HAND testimony from someone who has successfully dealt with the same issues.
I know how to raise my brother's kids to be angels. man...why couldn't I sum it up like that? All my posts are stupidly long winded. Thanks Ron! |
Darth Snuggle wrote: cheyennebuford wrote: I dont agree with using shock collars either. I know that all the best intentions are in place but still. We would never do this with our own children why with our beloved pets. Yes you are getting the results you want but still. My husband was in the USAF and helped with training the patrol dogs. He said at that time, it may have changed by now, but they never hit, shocked or did anything like that to the dogs. He trained Cheyenne with the same method he used in the USAF and she is the best dog to walk, etc. I wish more people would use his methods. the method I am using is the same that is used to train police dogs and search and rescue dogs. Its the same method that they Humane Society has been using to make "un-adoptable" dogs capable of being put in homes. The Humane Society uses this method; that tells me its humane. Not cruel. Not mean. My husband trained dogs at the DOD dog center in san antonio texas for the USAF, They NEVER EVER EVER used collars like that. I REPEAT NEVER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
cheyennebuford wrote: My husband trained dogs at the DOD dog center in san antonio texas for the USAF, They NEVER EVER EVER used collars like that. I REPEAT NEVER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that would be why I did not say "the USAF" have used this method. I said police, and search and rescue, and the Humane Society. Rather than get upset, perhaps you could tell us what method your husband did use; perhaps it would be helpful to other people. |
Ron wrote: I would love to have FIRST HAND testimony from someone who has successfully dealt with the same issues.
I know how to raise my brother's kids to be angels. Which issue? Raising siblings/multiple puppies? Mine are two now. They're not perfect, but apart from Sybil's goat like tendencies, they're easy to live with and civil to each other, to company and when I take them out in public. What would you like to know? I can't tell you about stopping them from fighting with each other because I if they showed even a hint of looking like they might squabble I simply told them 'knock it off' and they listened. Go figure. Which portion would you like me to cover? Coming when called? Sitting when told? Seriously. If there's a specific behavior someone wants to learn how to teach, throw the question up in the appropriate section and we can compare notes on how we teach it. The majority of us have survived raising at least one puppy successfully and have probably learned a thing or two of value along the way. Heading off to training. Dogs don't train themselves. Tried that method. Didn't work
Kristine |
| I don't mean to be argumentative, but the point is someone has dogs with specific issues. I am THRILLED that your dogs stopped when you said "knock it off." Does it sound like that would work for her dogs?
I have a dog that pulls and pulls and pulls. We tried everything to get him to stop pulling. The ONLY thing that worked for us was the use of the prong collar. When he wears the prong collar he doesn't pull. It's not that he is hurt by it, it's not even that he's uncomfortable with it. He has learned that when he wears that collar he should not or cannot pull. It is best for everyone; he is safe, we are safe, our arms aren't 6 inches longer and he is not in danger of being returned to rescue. I had another dog (Jake, my avatar) that used to bite. I trained him not to bite by not putting him into any situation where he would want to bite me. In other words I didn't get the bite out of him, I accommodated him. He also counter surfed. We solved that problem -- well actually, we just got everything off the counter so when he did surf he didn't get anything. He also, to the day we had to put him down at 13 1/2 never ever learned to take food gently. We didn't shock him or put a collar on him. We tried day after day after day --literally never missed training a single day of his life-- to get him to take food gently. We all do what we have to do to make our lives possible. G/A uses Mr. Bark Collar because without it she would not have been able to place the thousands of dogs she has placed, nor built the organization she has built, nor would I have had my dogs. How many OES would have been PTS if she didn't have the right or ability to use Mr. Bark Collar with a few of her fosters? Please don't sit in judgement about a barking dog and how to fix it unless you have the patience of Job like Valerie did or you have actually solved the problem of an incessantly barking dog with love and kindness. It's very easy to sit in judgement about biting dogs until you've had one eat ham off of you and curl his lips at you on a frequent basis. Please feel free to tell ME how much better you have done than Joan and I did with an aggressive 106 pound biter who (we were told) would have been put down if it weren't for us. You do what WORKS; you start with love and food, but you wind up doing whatever works. I HATE IT when our members turn on someone with disdain when they are doing the best that they can, and the best that they know how. It frustrates and angers me like you wouldn't believe. |
Ron wrote: I would love to have FIRST HAND testimony from someone who has successfully dealt with the same issues.
I know how to raise my brother's kids to be angels. this is the most insightful post. i'm so nosy- i feel like i'm snoopin'! but, it is a forum. |
| ok.............I have been reading all of the posts....and I will qualify first and foremost that I am not an expert on ANYTHING this serious BUT, please permit me to give my two cents worth.....
I feel for Allison...she is trying her best to improve whatever the past has dealt her...(greedy breeder, trainers only equip to train the round dogs that fit in the round peg so to speak, etc--Luna (like my Cosmo) seem to be the "square dog and no matter how they try they will NOT fit in the round hole.) I am empathic and sympathic to her situation. To be honest, I don't know what I would do if Cos would become aggressive and begin to bite. She has explained that the other choices she has is either rehoming...and to who??? AND possibly, if things get worse, and that is a strong possiblity, to put her down at what....1 year old???? I hear what the "other"side is saying also.. and I totally agree....... BUT....can't anyone give her some of expert advice...experiences...Ron?...you know everyone on this site...you know what their strengths are and where they live...Kristine? You know sooo many trainers, behaviourist etc....Nicole? HELP!!!! Everyone who has posted...isn't there some advice you can give her???? What can WE do to help her...???? Isn't there ANYONE in her area that will volunteer to 'mentor' her???? Maybe even go over and have some 'tea' and talk to her about it face to face? I KNOW we have sooo many experts on this forum. I KNOW if any of us hear of a dog who has to be rehomed or "put down" our heart breaks for both the person and the pup. Let's give her help BEFORE it gets that bad!!!! If I am out of line....I apologize to everyone on the forum....It is not intentional......but, sometimes, you just have to stand up and state your feelings...whether they make sense to others or not. |
Ron wrote: You do what WORKS; you start with love and food, but you wind up doing whatever works.
That's what it all comes down to. Ultimately, we do what we do because we do love our dogs and want the best for them. I can't make a judgment on someone who's trying their best, working hard and exploring all possible options. |
Mad Dog wrote: I can't tell you about stopping them from fighting with each other because I if they showed even a hint of looking like they might squabble I simply told them 'knock it off' and they listened. Go figure.
Which portion would you like me to cover? Coming when called? Sitting when told? Seriously. If there's a specific behavior someone wants to learn how to teach, throw the question up in the appropriate section and we can compare notes on how we teach it. The majority of us have survived raising at least one puppy successfully and have probably learned a thing or two of value along the way. Heading off to training. Dogs don't train themselves. Tried that method. Didn't work Kristine My two come when called. They sit, they stay, and they lie down, and they did all that before we started the collar training. Shoot; they pee on command, they can do "close" which was the heel position, and "watch" which is when they look to you for their next command, and "in the house".They did all of that at 4 months old. They were good at their obedience classes (Luna was better than Tonks); treat training and positive re-inforcement worked for us in those areas. I'm not dealing with your usual training issues, and from the start I think I was pretty specific about what our problems were. One of the big problems with the fights was that there was no warning signs; or we'd have had the time to seperate them. Luna would not growl to warn Tonks off; she'd go from affectionate to monster in the blink of an eye. I'm not looking for someone to tell me how to make my dog "fetch" or "quiet" them when barking. I'm looking to make our home liveable for all involved by eliminating the aggressive behaviors displayed by Luna. And so far I have found a method that works, and I have not been offered an alternative. So I'm sticking with what I am getting good results with. |
sheepieshake wrote: BUT....can't anyone give her some of expert advice...experiences...Ron?...you know everyone on this site...you know what their strengths are and where they live...Kristine? You know sooo many trainers, behaviourist etc....Nicole? HELP!!!! Everyone who has posted...isn't there some advice you can give her???? What can WE do to help her...???? thanks Val; I came looking for help and advice, and I got alot of criticism. One of the boards members is a qualified trainer, and did counsel me via PM, then email, and then through a series of phone calls. After we tried everything she could think of, she recommended me to the trainer I am now using, and the training collar program as well. sheepieshake wrote: Isn't there ANYONE in her area that will volunteer to 'mentor' her???? Maybe even go over and have some 'tea' and talk to her about it face to face? I KNOW we have sooo many experts on this forum. I KNOW if any of us hear of a dog who has to be rehomed or "put down" our heart breaks for both the person and the pup. Let's give her help BEFORE it gets that bad!!!! If I am out of line....I apologize to everyone on the forum....It is not intentional......but, sometimes, you just have to stand up and state your feelings...whether they make sense to others or not. I think we are all "stating our feelings" and for the most part everyone is doing so respectfully, and I think thats good. I've said it before; if everyone did not question my actions, I might not have done as much research as I did. And that research really allowed me to feel comfortable in my decision. |
| I'm happy that you've found something that is working for your dogs. Like Ron, I resorted to the prong collar for one of my dogs.
She was so strong! It only took her wearing that collar a couple of times for her to think that she always had it on. I loaned it to a neighbor after her male shepherd dragged her through the park on her side. It worked for him too. I think you have to look at it like people. There are some that no matter what you do - they just don't get it. You don't want to resort to something that seems so horrific, but isn't it better to put a little shock into their day than to put them down without at least trying? It would be awful to kill them and find out later that just few shocks might of been all it took to straighten them up and save their lives. I had two that fought. I thought they were going to kill one another. They were sisters and I also had their mother. After a couple fights mom picked one and then if the pups got into it it became a 2 against 1 fight. Mom got along good with both unless a fight broke out so my solution was to seperate the sisters. I do think that in the beginning we humans interfer too soon in what comes natural to a dog, and we make matters worse by doing so. |
| i had training class tonight - well actually hubbie and mr newfie puppy had class but hubby is sick so I had to pinch hit. we go to an IAABC certified behaviorist and honestly Mr newfie Puppy is a piece of cake after two OES. this is the same behaviorist I use for my own dogs and I did a lot of research to find her.
After class I asked her about the tens unit. she couldn't say there was a benefit, she couldn't figure out what it would be in fact. She did say if you use one you are deluding yourself that you are not using an e collar. just trying to understand the situation. |
Ron wrote: I would love to have FIRST HAND testimony from someone who has successfully dealt with the same issues.
I think if you look back my first post on this subject started with been there done that. I did give her concrete things to do and an open ended solution as well. I didn't get any follow up questions. I believe her mind was made up. and I don't think a prong collar is the same as the e collar. I used a prong on an OES that was unadoptable from our humane society because he pulled so much. he was the best dog ever and after we used a properly fitted prong he no longer pulled - he didn't even have to wear it - it was a tool to learn with. |
| "I have received alot of private messages supporting what I am doing, from people that don't want to be involved in the public spectacle this is becoming. And I don't blame them; I'm wishing I had never posted here looking for help in my situation." Darth Snuggle (like some famous quotation!)
paper cuts and lemon juice whenever i chime in...so i Know how you feel. but that is really human nature. i'd put a collar on 'em all if i could! (joke--I'm petrified to say anything around here - Not!!!) but i do want to make sure my "jokes" are taking as that. never let people dictate or intimidate your thoughts or speech. (i'm too American, i guess!) and i can see by your posts you didn't - you just got some battle wounds for having an opinion. but you're tough and kept your sense of humor up admirably. now, on to why i'm talking to 'ya! (the opinions expressed in the following sentences may not be suitable for all readers. OES Member's discretion is advised!) i got a parrot about 7 years ago from a person that no longer wanted her because of aggression. i'm so smart, i took her! she's an amazon and very green, like the HULK! and just as scary. i got every book available, read on line, tried every possible method i could and although she was "better" she was still fairly aggressive. how? oh, lunge at you and dig her ice pick of a beak deep into your arm, hand, ear, whatever she was lucky enough to get. the pain is quite excruciating and lasts weeks, cause it goes deep into your muscle -- i mean, my muscle!!!! well, the various methods "worked" sort of, in that "sometimes" she didn't try to attack me! finally, i was like "why am i petrified of this little bird i can easily beat up!!! she was like a bully and had played mind games with me. i kept giving her my lunch money! but just like all bullies do, she met her match! i had it. that bird's not gonna beat me up any more, i said to myself! (i'm only half kidding) so i decided i would try something that i'm almost positive 99.9 percent of the folks who replied to this thread would disagree with (horror!) thus the lemon juice reference. of course i knew she is nothing but feathers with a tiny minuscule frame beneath, (which is what gave me the courage to begin with!) so, gentleness was the protocol! armed with her stick perch, the next time she attacked me, i....how to describe...kind of used the stick, putting it over top of her, and sort of gently "pushed" her around. she hated it. i was fighting back, and she couldn't bite me. boy that got her goat (if birds have goats). i started to use the stick if she threatened me (flaring and challenging me) and slowly but surly, she knew i could beat her up!!!! she decided to let me be the boss after all. and we were able to be friends. that was two years ago. i now can take her anywhere from the livingroom to the park, and we get to enjoy each other. But...amazon parrots are the moodiest creatures --PMS, the P is for parrot i think! and sometimes she gets mad at me if i don't talk to her "enough"- she has issues! but if she acts like she's up to her old tricks i'll bring out the stick!---today was one of those days. after reading all your troubles, i thought hey, i'm gonna tell darth about this parrot! she's a funny bird now! and quickly apologizes with a..."bo bo bo" which is what we say to eachother when we're being affectionate. Moral of the story???? sometimes we have to show 'em who's boss. in a gentle spanking way!!!!! |
| Allison, when you take on two pups the same age you are going to have double trouble its perfectly normal. They have to sort out the pecking order between themselves, although two dogs are better than two bitches. Then with dogs it sounds terrible but they rarely do anything to each other, with bithches it is different they can inflicht serious injuries to each other. I have three sheepies at home and I assert my authourity and go inbetween a scruffel with the boys, yes the sometimes growl at me but I do not think one of them would dare bite me then there would be a very angry apha in the house, in one of your post I read regarding a friend holding Luna down an she was growling, this should not be one by a third party but instead only by the Alpha, either you or your man, so if you are both at home and you are the Alpha then this should only be done by yourself, the only time the other person has the authourity is when you are not present. I love reading what people write about dogs and their social behaviour, but in the end they are dogs and we should not forget this. it is their nature to try and climb up the ladder. Allison one more thing even when trained an the situation arrises they will ALWAYS take sides with each other then you do not speak their language and they have a special bond. I am happy things are working out but I still disagree with this method and I would never recommend it to anyone. |
| Hm. I'm with Kerry. Advice and alternatives were presented, but it was clear she felt she had found her salvation and didn't really want to hear anything else and it was also clear that this was about much more than two young bitches fighting with each other - rewards based training didn't work, they weren't paying attention to her. There was a much quicker, easier way to achieve what she wanted, them being reliable off lead, a good recall etc.
I thought she was missing a golden opportunity - they were both still so young and obviously testing their limits, with each other and with the people in their lives. Studying them, if she knew what to look for, could have given her the clues she needed to know when something was about to happen, but that takes an attentiveness most humans lack. Fair enough. "Training" methods like she describes (this particular one still makes absolutely no sense to me, nor to Tonks, evidently) are made for your average pet owner who isn't really that into dog training and that's not a crime if they work or at a bare minimum do no harm. I have no doubt she loves her dogs. That's not the point. What upsets me quite specifically is what she wrote more recently and I'll hazard a guess it is probably exactly what upset Nicole enough to leave. I won't even quote it, I can't read it again, my reaction was that visceral. It's not an easy thing to explain unless you've studied a bit about how dogs learn. Which is why, whether you agree with these kinds of methods or not, you shouldn't be playing around with them unless you fully understand what's taking place. Here it is in a nutshell to the best of my ability to explain it: You have a smart dog who is doing her utmost to avoid the "it's not really an electrical shock" (well, then what is it really, because it's clearly an aversive to the dog or why would she be working so hard to avoid it?) She's getting her butt on the ground when asked to sit before she can be zapped. GOOD DOG! Smart dog. That's what you want, right? Compliance? No, evidently not. Because she's sitting faster than she can be zapped (or tapped or whatever it is). The point, we're told, is not that she sits, it's that she be corrected. For what? For sitting? OK. so what does she gather from that? It must not be sitting you want. So she, being a smart dog, tries other behaviors to see if she can make the consequences stop. This is a perfectly sensible response to what she's facing. When that doesn't work, she leaves. She starts having accidents again. And chewing. That's STRESS not spite. Yes, please read that again. With no way to make sense of nor control what is happening to her, she will either eventually shut down completely or, keep at it long enough, become completely neurotic. Perhaps this illustrates her untenable position better: Without taking a stand on bark collars or underground fences or whatever they're called, I can tell you this: whether you agree with aversives or not, there is a certain impartiality and consistency to these two methods. The dog is in control: if you don't bark or you don't cross this line, you won't get zapped. Makes me uneasy - I'm with Willowsprite, electrical shocks terrify me - but after the initial introduction, the smart dog figures out very quickly how to avoid getting zapped. In the scenario above, she has no way to avoid being corrected. She can't be right. She is set up to fail. First you stop trying, and then you withdraw. For anyone who loves working with dogs and who has even a modicum of real understanding of how they process information, this scenario is too depressing for words. I'm not going to expend a ton of energy on this discussion. I feel awful for the dog, but I don't think Allison is an awful person, nor that everyone has to train as I do. But I do feel Tonk's voice should be heard. She is trying to tell you the only way she knows how. May I suggest that you limit their corrections to true transgressions at least? And maybe pick up a few books on operant conditioning? Understanding dogs is a lifelong endevour. You just keep plugging at it. You make mistakes. You learn from them. You move on. You make more mistakes. You learn. It's a good thing most dogs are incredibly forgiving about most things. Much more so than we are. Tonight in obedience class I witnessed a small miracle that took me years to accomplish. No one there had a clue. But I guess that was exactly the point Maybe I'll write about it somewhere else some other time, but I'm once again stuck by how incredibly lucky we are to have these creatures in our lives.
Kristine |
Quote: . Advice and alternatives were presented, but it was clear she felt she had found her salvation and didn't really want to hear anything else and it was also clear that this was about much more than two young bitches fighting with each other - rewards based training didn't work, they weren't paying attention to her. There was a much quicker, easier way to achieve what she wanted, them being reliable off lead, a good recall etc.
What I read is that some experts were suggesting that she might have to have Luna PTS. I understand the terror in that suggestion and understand why she defends a training technique that has been recommended and taught her by experts when it has been effective quickly and throughly. I hope that success contineus. . I have to respect the fear and the extreme desire to do her best by both of her dogs. This is not what I would do, I think, but I am not in that particular situation. I understand that you disagree with the collar method. I have my concerns, as well, mostly about Luna learning to outwit the collar or developing a higher and higher threshold that must be surpassed in order for the correction to be effective. But I respect that DarthSnuggle is doing her best to do the best she can for her dogs. There is a great deal of expertise on this forum--and a great deal of passion (and compassion for dogs). But sometimes I wonder if some of us don't get so caught up in being right---because we believe so firmly in our opinion that is informed by years of experience, reading, studying, training, etc.--that we forget that others have other perspectives. Maybe less experience. Maybe less knowledge. But we have to keep in mind that pretty much everybody who is a member here--and most visitors--are here to learn and to share. Sometimes we have to back off a little to allow people to come closer to our point of view--if they want to come, that is. As much as any of us might disagree with another person's perspective, I think we need to respect that it is their perspective, their experience and we need to respect that people are truly trying to do what is right for and by their dogs. |
| Hey Darth Snuggle, I believe you're doing everything you possibly can for your dogs - your fondness for them totally shines through, kudos to you for trying so hard! I feel for ya - Fitzwilliam, my six month old OES, isn't always a walk in the park either, to say the least (he's presently chewing on my chair, I should probably stop him before chair and I topple right over - I wish he'd fall asleep occasionally, my little brat ).
I think this is an important discussion - I, for one, am learning a lot and it's certainly given me food for thought; and it's all a learning process right? What I don't understand, though, is the theory behind the training - I'm just not getting it somehow. I keep reading through your explanations thinking that I'm missing something. Like this, for example, really confuses me: Darth Snuggle wrote: I'll tell Tonks to "sit"; every command is accompanied by pressing the button on the remote, activating the collar. So I say "sit" Tonks feels a little twitch, and she sits. At least thats how its supposed to work. Instead, I say "Sit" and Tonks slams her butt down so fast i don't have the chance to use the remote. I thought "what a good dog!" but the trainer explained that its Tonks trying to train us to NOT use the remote; because she subtly wants to maintain the Alpha role and not give it over to us. And sure enough, she was right. I thought "I'm not going to use the collar if Tonks doesn't need it" and within hours Tonks was not doing her commands. I'd say "sit" and she wasn't throwing her butt to the ground at break neck speed; she'd leave the room instead!
This isn't much like any behaviour modification therapy I've ever heard of - maybe it's brand spanking new and I've fallen behind the times. It's definitely not operant conditioning; it kinda seems more like classical conditioning - whereby the trainer's voice, in the process of issuing a command, becomes associated with an electrical impluse. So in effect (and affect) the trainer's voice carries a lot more weight with her dogs - they become conditioned to pay more attention. Am I getting close yet Allison? 'Cause I'm so confused (as usual, lol). Anyway, if it's confusing me this much, and I actually have a degree in Psychology, for what it's worth (apparently not much  ) then maybe it's equally as confusing for Tonks? Though it is quite possible that Tonks IS smarter than me ... |
| Maf;
You've nailed it on the head; and explained it much better than I have been. The collar gives more weight to my commands, and keeps her from ignoring what it is I am telling her. Thanks for summing it up so well! I too was confused when the trainer explained the system, and it made more sense when she gave us a demonstration. She's so smart, and I really like how she explains stuff to us. I just wish I could re-gurgitate what she has said, and do it as easy to understand verbage as she tells us.... maf wrote: Hey Darth Snuggle, I believe you're doing everything you possibly can for your dogs - your fondness for them totally shines through, kudos to you for trying so hard! I feel for ya - Fitzwilliam, my six month old OES, isn't always a walk in the park either, to say the least (he's presently chewing on my chair, I should probably stop him before chair and I topple right over - I wish he'd fall asleep occasionally, my little brat ). I think this is an important discussion - I, for one, am learning a lot and it's certainly given me food for thought; and it's all a learning process right? What I don't understand, though, is the theory behind the training - I'm just not getting it somehow. I keep reading through your explanations thinking that I'm missing something. Like this, for example, really confuses me: Darth Snuggle wrote: I'll tell Tonks to "sit"; every command is accompanied by pressing the button on the remote, activating the collar. So I say "sit" Tonks feels a little twitch, and she sits. At least thats how its supposed to work. Instead, I say "Sit" and Tonks slams her butt down so fast i don't have the chance to use the remote. I thought "what a good dog!" but the trainer explained that its Tonks trying to train us to NOT use the remote; because she subtly wants to maintain the Alpha role and not give it over to us. And sure enough, she was right. I thought "I'm not going to use the collar if Tonks doesn't need it" and within hours Tonks was not doing her commands. I'd say "sit" and she wasn't throwing her butt to the ground at break neck speed; she'd leave the room instead! This isn't much like any behaviour modification therapy I've ever heard of - maybe it's brand spanking new and I've fallen behind the times. It's definitely not operant conditioning; it kinda seems more like classical conditioning - whereby the trainer's voice, in the process of issuing a command, becomes associated with an electrical impluse. So in effect (and affect) the trainer's voice carries a lot more weight with her dogs - they become conditioned to pay more attention. Am I getting close yet Allison? 'Cause I'm so confused (as usual, lol). Anyway, if it's confusing me this much, and I actually have a degree in Psychology, for what it's worth (apparently not much ) then maybe it's equally as confusing for Tonks? Though it is quite possible that Tonks IS smarter than me ... |
tgir wrote: [ I have my concerns, as well, mostly about Luna learning to outwit the collar or developing a higher and higher threshold that must be surpassed in order for the correction to be effective. .
I was concerned about the same thing. But oddly, the opposite has happened. Luna started out on a "40" on her collar--they go from 0 - 100. I can sometimes work with her now at a "20", and there have been two occasions now where I forgot to turn her collar on before we trained, and she did all her commands.... so essentially she was working at a "0". I have heard that some breeds of herding dogs need to have "something to do"; a friend has a border collie, and they are constantly teaching it new commands, to keep it occupied. If she gets bored, she gets destructive. I wonder if this is what Luna is going through; she seems really happy to be learning new stuff, and proud to show of and prove to us that she can do the commands. |
| MadDog, could you list some titles and authors of the books you mentioned? Thanks! |
| I found these titles to be helpful:
FIGHT! A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO THE TREATMENT OF DOG-DOG AGGRESSION MINE! A GUIDE TO RESOURCE GUARDING IN DOGS and DOGS ARE FROM NEPTUNE all by Jean Donaldson. She's a dog behaviorist that works with the San Fransisco SPCA. |
| Can I ask what state your breeder was in. I am also have aggresion issues with my Old English and I am worried about the breeder.. I am wondering if it could of been the same place.She also did not return my emails after I started having problem with my dog biting for just |
| we got our girls from a breeder here in Georgia, in a town called Lilburn.
As it turns out, my girl Luna isn't in fact aggressive or dominant. It seems I wasn't being an adequate Alpha, and once I took a stronger role, she lost all the behaviors that I mistook for aggression. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: we got our girls from a breeder here in Georgia, in a town called Lilburn.
As it turns out, my girl Luna isn't in fact aggressive or dominant. It seems I wasn't being an adequate Alpha, and once I took a stronger role, she lost all the behaviors that I mistook for aggression. please remember that is just a theory. |
| I'm going to lock this only because it's getting so long. If there's more to say, please go ahead and start another thread. |
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