Riley tried to bite my son - help!
Riley is very healthy now. His hair is growing in and he is just beautiful! He enjoys walking on the leash, is learning commands, and listens 75% of the time! BUT.........he's also trying to spread his wings and test the turf, he is definitely a little resistant. Initially, he started marking the house claiming it, but we nipped that right away. However, he did it again yesterday - out of the blue! He and Brooklyn were playing ball, and she was chasing him. He stopped, and lifted his leg, urinated on my chair and carpeting. 
Anyway, last night, my 21 year old son Peter, came home from college for the weekend. He met Riley the weekend we brought him home, and has been at school since; about one month. When we eat dinner, we have a policy of no dogs in the kitchen, and we tell them "place." Brooklyn learned very quickly, and Riley has been really good with it too, though he tries to at least have his face on the kitchen tile. Last night, the furkids were a little less then eager to leave the kitchen, and Peter put Brooklyn in the next room. He commanded Riley to do the same, and Riley growled and then bit him, luckily only got his belt buckle. I immediately jumped in, put Riley on his side on the floor, and held my hand on his neck to remind him of his order in the pack. He is becoming quite boisterous and pushy, and stubborn. He does move his eyes when I look at him, but I am getting the feeling that he thinks he's going to overthrow the governing forces. Help!!!! How do I get this under control???   |
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Quote: I immediately jumped in, put Riley on his side on the floor, and held my hand on his neck to remind him of his order in the pack. He is becoming quite boisterous and pushy, and stubborn. He does move his eyes when I look at him, but I am getting the feeling that he thinks he's going to overthrow the governing forces. Help!!!! How do I get this under control???
While that kind of behavior cannot be tolerated I would advise to not fall prey to such outdated training methods. I would find an IAABC certified behaviorist and work on the behavior. Many dogs don't like their collar being tugged on and since Riley is a rescue you don't know his history. He is avoiding your eyes most likely because he no longer trusts you. dogs don't plot but many do act out under fear. I am not a trainer or a behaviorist but I do kn ow what good training can do and what fall out you can get with bad methods. when my last behaviorist used these methods with one of my dogs it took months (and a new trainer) to get back her trust and personality. the good news is it cna be done! |
| Hi Kerry,
Thanks for your thoughts. Riley has not lost trust in me, he is showing the natural response to understanding I am the pack leader. He has done this from day one. Submissive dogs would never challenge the alpha with a direct stare. While placing him on his side might be old school, I do believe this works. Just ask the "dog whisperer!"  |
SheepieSmiles wrote: Hi Kerry,
Thanks for your thoughts. Riley has not lost trust in me, he is showing the natural response to understanding I am the pack leader. He has done this from day one. Submissive dogs would never challenge the alpha with a direct stare. While placing him on his side might be old school, I do believe this works. Just ask the "dog whisperer!" While I find Ceasar entertaining I don't think all of his methods are worth emulating. he like many others took a little bit of science and twisted it to their own means. I would look broader afield for advice. IAABC and a number of other certification groups will back me up - the first thing the person (with OES) who is a trainer in VA told me when I related my experience with Marley is that the "field" has gone past that and I needed a new trainer. Believe me she was right. Only sorry I couldn't use her training expertise as we are sooo far away. Averting eyes more likely shows fear. doing what I say when I say it is what I want from my dogs and what I get (okay usually) |
SheepieSmiles wrote: He commanded Riley to do the same, and Riley growled and then bit him, luckily only got his belt buckle. I immediately jumped in, put Riley on his side on the floor, and held my hand on his neck to remind him of his order in the pack. He is becoming quite boisterous and pushy, and stubborn. He does move his eyes when I look at him, but I am getting the feeling that he thinks he's going to overthrow the governing forces. Help!!!! How do I get this under control???
Be grateful he growled. That's called fair warning. That means pay attention to what I'm telling you. Push me further and I may bite. And so he did. From the dog's point of view, the bite could have been avoided. How did your son respond when the dog warned him and before he bit him? What other warning signals did he give? What was his body language? His ear set? His eyes? His mouth? And so on. I'm sure he is testing the limits of what he can get away with. The dogs who are most likely to do that are often some of the most insecure dogs. A new person in the house changes things. Insecure dogs typically aren't big proponents of change and flipping them on their side and so on tends to make them more insecure, not less. The truly dominant dog is actually pretty rare and dogs typically test to reassure themselves that there is leadership, rather than to try to take it over. The mythical dog just waiting for us to slip up and not follow some proper protocol so he can justify taking control is just that, a myth. It would really help to have a professional help determine what's really going on and help you address whatever it is. And I don't mean some pet trainer, but someone with a solid background in dealing with behavioral issues. Without seeing the dog's posture and your son's responses and so on, it would be almost impossible for us to do more than speculate. Sheepdogs are almost by definition boisterous, pushy (too varying degrees) and stubborn. Most don't bite you, but I don't think the former necessarly leads to bad behavior - it's just their nature - so there's something else going on here. The question is: what is it? Kristine |
| Just to clarify, my son was commanding him to leave the room. He did not have a hand on the dog, nor did he pull him by his collar. Riley was sitting and Peter pointed and said "place." Riley growled and immediately went for Peter. Had his hand been anywhere near Riley, he would have bitten him. Luckily he was sitting, and could reach only a belt buckle, missing his abdomen.
After Riley went for Pete, he stepped back and walked away. I intervened. |
| Bring in a professional trainer with experience with this behavioral
challenge... one that is humane in their training methods. Call the local vet offices to get a good referral. Your boy came from a background that is unknown... he was basically on his own according to the farmer who's property he visited and he had to fend for himself. No one knows if people challenged him. You need to find the right method to handle this immediately so it doesn't escalate. PLEASE get a trainer to help you... they may be able to help you find non-confrontational ways to achieve the same end result. |
| Hi Jaci,
this behavioral challenge... one that is humane in their training methods. Call the local vet offices to get a good referral. That should be a good start; one I didn't think of! The one thing that scares me is that it was unpredictable. He has never reacted in such a manner, even when Brooklyn and he get into scuffles. They're still learning their way around one another, but it's working. We have great days, and some good days; no bad ones. I swear, they wait until I get home and start their antics! Could it be for my attention??? Honestly, I know it may sound like he's a tough nut, but he's not. He's very gentle soul and absolutely loves attention. He had welcomed Pete as he came in, and was quite happy to lean in for a back scratch. Even after dinner, when they were permitted into the room again, Riley sat next to Pete hitting him with his paw for attention. I am totally baffled! Riley is very accepting of human contact. I cannot fathom what caused the reaction! I cannot believe Riley survived on his own, by himself in the woods. He quivers at lightening storms, loves to curl up on the floor beside my side of the bed, follows us everywhere, and adores the cat. He sits nicely for neighborhood children to pet him, and just wants to be around people. It's hard for me to believe he even attempted to snap, let alone did so... |
| I have to share this... maybe to show the possible urgency.
A friend had fostered a sheepie-boy named Newman back in early 2005... he began testing the boundaries once he got healthier and stronger. http://thesheepiestore.com/Assist7.jpg She was going to take the other dogs out early one morning and told him to come along. He bit her on the lip. He was taken by animal control, placed in quarantine and then humanely euthanized. He left behind memories, both happy and sad... his foster mama will forever carry him in her heart... she'll never be able to quite get over him. Quote: Honestly, I know it may sound like he's a tough nut, but he's not. He's very gentle soul and absolutely loves attention.
This is the way Newman was... he was a guy who would rest his head on your shoulder and give hugs. PLEASE bring in an excellent professional trainer with experience with this behavior to help you with him. Once a bite happens, it just cannot be undone and the dog will loose. It's always better to err on the side of caution. Handle him very carefully to prevent any unwarranted responses... for now, don't command but rather try to get compliance through positive incentives. If you need him moved to another area, grab a treat and ask him in a happy voice to come "over here" to lie down. You had mentioned "antic"... dogs will sometimes do this for attention. You might try simply turning your back on both dogs and walking away if they start vying for attention. If mine start anything, I immediately stand up and walk away... NO one will get my attention. It's a big red flag that needs to be dealt with quickly before he asserts too much dominance and becomes comfortable with it. |
| Riley was not trying to challenge authority or anything like that.
It is impossible to tell for sure without actually seeing what happened, but I suspect Riley was frightened by your son's actions, felt threatened and bit him out of fear. The growl is great, and should alway be heeded. Riley missed biting your son on purpose. If he wanted to bite him he would have. This is a great, predictable dog. All you have to do is listen to what he is saying and you will be fine. A behaviorist can help you do that. Please do not force him on his side for any reason. It will only teach him to fear you and see you as unpredictable. I don't want to get into the CM debate, but often he has no clue of why a dog does what he does, nor how to properly respond to the dog's behavior. |
| All this being said, it generally takes a year for a rehomed dog to totally adjust to a new environment. Don't give up yet...follow all the good advice you have been given. It will be worth it for all of you when you understand each other. |
| Usually, I use treats and positive reinforcement to encourage acceptable behavior. Both Brooklyn and Riley are driven by treats, particularly the little tiny ones made for cats! I also use their kibbles as treats. They will do pretty much anything for them. When we come in from a walk, I always give treats, but they must sit for them. Brooklyn sits immediately, and it takes Riley a few more times before he'll sit. He's still learning, and he picks it up quickly because he watches Brooklyn too. It's been a month, and everyone is settling in. Riley is pushing the envelope, which, I think is normal. I believe he has some hearing loss and vision loss in one eye. I used audio as well as hand commands - sign language. I've always used it with my furkids, and it works for me.
I think we have a few things going on here. I do believe he was startled by my son and maybe his voice. Don't be fooled though; his intention was to bite, but it was a warning bite, If he wanted to attack, his demeanor would have been different. I have never before experienced a dog I couldn't entice, and I'm a bit outside my comfort level and expertise with Riley. When Brooklyn and Riley begin vying for my attention, I usually put my hands in the air, tell them I'm done and walk away from the immediate area. They stop, follow me, and it begins again. I go about my chores, etc, and ultimately it escalates with some growling and jumping on one another, but they're also playing. They start doing the circles bumping bums into one another, the sheepie play. Anyone experience this sort of play, or is this a potential danger zone for one of my fuzzballs? thank you all for your help. I have a call into a trainer I know to see if she handles this sort of situation. If not, I'll call my vet. |
We have had Bella here for 5 months, and it was only after 4 that things seemed to really settle down. Be watchful and hang in there...a lot of behaviors can be unlearned with the right training. It sounds like you are of the right frame of mind.  |
| Hi,
I mentioned on another post that while searching for some of Panda's medical problems I reread many of my post from years ago. Riley may have some of the same fears as Panda first had. The one thing that I've experienced with numerous rescues is there is a "honeymoon" period. Kinda like many children in foster care experience when going to a new home. Due to their past, they almost fear of doing anything wrong and are eager to please. When they start feeling comfortable is ironcially when problems arise. Riley may have been going through the Honeymoon period when he first met all the family members and the experience with your son recently was a result of fear not aggression. A aggressive dog will not give a warning such as what Riley did. One month is your home is still recent and sometimes it takes months for their true personalities to emerge. Over and over in my past post I mentioned how Panda would get frantic at anything he viewed as restraint - otherwise he too was a total lovebug. Many experts - including 4 vets and a specialist commented that they knew he was not aggressive but scared. Some rescues have many issues they deal with and just like abused children they may "lash out" if they feel cornered or experience something like similiar resulting from their backgrounds. I've worked in the Criminology and Special Ed systems for several years and follow the same quidelines with abused children and those with special needs. You never know when something will be a "trigger". Dogs like kids have different personalities and what works for some may not work for others. This is not a hard and fast rule but just what I've experienced that those with abusive backgrounds or unknown, do far better with postive reinforcement , developing a strong bond with their human then firm correction. Once they've established a bond they are so eager to please. Desensitization sometimes takes months to change the behavior but it's possible. Lastly again, in my experience the rescues usally are those that once they feel secure make the most loving loyal furkids. Even though I KNEW Panda was a gentle soul - as a precaution he was always muzzled at the vets. We never took chances and even years later when I was confident he wouldn't react I never took chances or became complacent. I wasn't distracted and always watched what was happening around him. I have done behavioral dog consulting and the one constant I tell people with rescues is even if they appear to be total lovebugs..never become complacent or let your guard down. Not until that dog has been in your home for years but especially the first year. It's important to remember sometimes for every step forward it's 2 steps back. Be consistent, try to work on one thing at a time and go slowly and end everything on a postive note even if it's just a few mins and increased by a mere min the next day. Good luck to you and Riley. Sending belly rubs his way! Marianne Oh forgot to mention a great tip that was given to me several years ago. The two arm rule if you have two dogs vying for your attention and to avoid conflict. Two arms out..each dog knows which arm to go for pats and thus avoid being in each others face. If the dog goes to the wrong side you ignore but distract with the other arm and doggie eventually goes to the other side. For me it was always Panda on the left , Merlin on the right (again I also had Blue but only two arms..ha ha) After a few attempts each would go to "their" side for pats. I don't have to do it anymore but it sure came in handy when the new guy wanted attention and the others would be jealous - no conflicts. |
| Our girls play rough with each other at times. Jumping on top of each other, jumping in the air and grabbing each other. Mouthing. Looks rough to us, but they never hurt each other. Hang in there with Riley, and thanks for saving him. |
Quote: I have done behavioral dog consulting and the one constant I tell people with rescues is even if they appear to be total lovebugs..never become complacent or let your guard down. Not until that dog has been in your home for years but especially the first year.
Excellent advice, Marianne. Doing this will help to avoid situations that may cause the dog to fail. For over a year I would push my hip into Panda to back her up so I could pick up her bowl after she was done eating. She had some food aggression with the other girls. I'd bend over with my face away from her because I thought she was guarding her dish. As it turns out, she was intently hanging over her dish just waiting for me to pick it up so she could see if there was anything under it. Misreading the signals or not knowing what might set her off could have been disastrous for the dog... I'd rather err on the side of caution when it comes to rescues or dogs that I don't know. |
| All the advice has been excellent---
I want to share our personal experience with Murphy.... He was a biter when we rescued him four years ago. It was to the point that any time Marty approached him he would snap, I thought now is the time to pick up some outside training! He started taking Murph to obedience training and it really worked wonders! Murphy was scared and insecure so, how do they react? They bite....they don't have a voice to say what is wrong, why they are scared. Murphy is now Marty's best buddy. It took time and patience which I can see in your posts you have. I am not sure where Marvin, NC is but, if we can help please let us know! Kathy |
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