I wasnt real sure under which topic to post this.
I guess what I am looking for is some support, or just to hear from someone else that it may be ok to make sure she finds a home where she is given everything she needs. And admitting this is not as bad as it seems. There is a lady I work with who has a Bernese Mt.Dog puppy, 9 months old, and she has told me she is looking for a large puppy as a playmate for him, I believe she would be happy there. But I dont want to lose Cassie, she really is wonderful, and there would be NO question of us keeping her if we were under different circumstances ourselves. A house, with a yard where we could play with her everyday off leash. You see we came upon her from a lady I used to work with, she was 'getting rid' of Cassie as punishment to her son for bad grades in school, which Cassie was a Christmas gift anyway.(bad idea) They did not understand what comes along with an OES. The clumsy play, walking into walls, and being a total clown. When I first talked to her about us taking Cassie she called her stupid, and a cluts. I have done a lot of research on all types of breeds bcs we have been talking about getting a dog for a while. Well I'm done going on and on for now, please let me know what you think, and your opinion on what I am faced with. Thank You. Sadly, Kelly |
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| Kelly, you are the only one who knows if a dog fits your lifestyle and for it to work, it has to be right for everyone in the home. OESs are not for everyone. They can be a rambunctious and exuberant breed and while it can take months for a dog to settle in, it sounds like you've thought this over.
It just sounds like she simply didn't have proper training early on... the behavior you described requires a consistent and determined handler. I think she'll be a great companion with someone who can spend the time required with her... meaning first only limited access to the house except when constantly supervised. It will teach her limits and acceptable behavior. As a gift to Cassie, try hard to make this placement a lifetime one. This next owner will be at least her 3rd and it can be difficult on a dog if she doesn't have a stable home. I have an OES that was about 11 months old when she arrived... we were her 3rd home not including about 3 weeks at a humane society. She had severe separation anxiety due to this and it took about 6 months for her to settle in. The Bernese Mountain Dog owner may provide a great home if she has a fenced yard (MANDATORY since you mentioned Cassie chases cars). The new owner must go into this knowing Cassie's issues and be willing to take time to train her and work through them. Give her your state's OES Rescue contacts along with the OES forum address so she can seek help if she needs it. If you're unsure this next home will be her forever home, PLEASE consider contacting OES rescue. A good rescue will be there for the dog for his/her lifetime so if it doesn't work out for any reason, they go back to rescue rather than a shelter or animal control. If you need help finding a home or rescue to help, please post again. We will all try to help you and Cassie find a solution. |
| Jaci has given you some great advice.
You should not keep her if you feel that you don't have the time energy or space to give her the quality of life she deserves. Good Luck. |
I feel so terrible for Cassie, myeyes are tearing up now. She is a GREAT creature. And I would not give herto the lady I work with if I did not trust her to give Cassie a good home, or with out telling her about Cassies behavior, and things she should know in order to make an informed decision. When I took Cassie I was told she is very good, with kids, cats, and other dogs. Well she is a very good dog, but not with all those listed above, andof course I am going to tell this lady I would prefer for her to do research on the breed before making her decision. That way she knows full and well the trip she is in for! I love Cassie and I hate to see her go, but its not fair to her for me to keep her, and she not be happy. Oh my godness, I have never ever THOUGHT about needing to give away ANY of my pets before.... it is soo hard. I just want to cry. 
Thanks for the advise. |
| Personally I do not think that someone should get a dog for another dog. The lady with the Bernese might be a great lady, but if she is looking for a playmate for her own dog then that is the wrong reason to get a second one...Especially an OES that comes with a whole lot of work with it....
Cassie needs to be in a home where she is wanted for herself...Someone who wants an OES in particular, and who wants HER because she is who she is. Preferably someone who has already had an OES. 2 puppies under a year old are a lot of work. They both need individual training, as they rough and tumble all day often they are left outside to fend for themselves because it is easier. Please make sure she is spayed befor she is placed. You have no idea where she may end up later on down the road, even with your best intentions. And if she isn't due to her age, any male dog in the same household must be. edited- I noticed that she is over 8 month sold, so she can be spayed. |
Bosley's mom wrote: Please make sure she is spayed befor she is placed. You have no idea where she may end up later on down the road, even with your best intentions. And if she isn't due to her age, any male dog in the same household must be.
I told my fiancee we were gonna have her spayed, he asked why, what if they dont want her spayed. I told him they get her spayed, or they dont get her. There is NO NEED for us to knowingly put herin another home before she is spayed. that would just be one more unwanted, unexpected litter. I PROMISE you she will be spayed before leaving our care. I acctually get help from this organization who helps people spay/neuture, they gave me the voucher yesturday, and I am calling to make an apointment today. And just in reply to wanting another dog for her first dog. She did not come out and say she wanted Cassie an OES for her dog, I am going to approach her with the idea. But I wont let her go with out them knowing about the breed, and their needs. I was not in the know, and I wish I were, I'm gonna miss her so much. |
| Where are you? |
| We are in Winchester Kentucky, about 2 hrs from Louisville. |
| Kelly,
I am sorry that you are faced with this hard decision. Truly, I am, you are realistic enough to know that you cannot provide the home that Cassie needs. I think the best thing you can do for Cassie at this point in her life and to ensure that the next family that gets her will be her forever home is to contact the OES Rescue in your area. You are wanting to make the decisions on who gets her out of emotions, a rescue group with be realistic with their decision on who gets her. Which in turn will be in the best interest of Cassie. As the owner of a 6 year old-130lb Bernese Mountain Dog and a 5 year old Sheepie/Springer Mix.. I can tell you from experience, these two dogs have very very different needs, exercise, grooming, training, etc. Good luck with what ever decision you make, and hugs to Cassie. Brenda |
| Below is Ingrid's contact information just in case. If you visit this address
http://www.oes.org/html/oes_rescue.shtml you can also get her telephone number. She's assisted MANY Old English Sheepdogs and handles Kentucky. Ingrid Thompson shaggydogs@charter.net http://oesrescuenetwork.org |
| Kelly--you sound a lot like my situation when my fiance (now husband) got Barney, except we did have a house with a yard. I dreaded going home every day. I stayed late at work (I had no work to do), I ran non-existant errands, etc. I just felt like being at home was more work than fun.
Barney was a LOT more work than we ever anticipated. I had had sheepies growing up, so I knew a lot about them, but I also had never been the one to housetrain or train them. I was just there for fun with them. So when it came time for me to get my own sheepie, I was ecstatic and was told from his old owner that he was housetrained, etc. Well, he wasn't. And everytime he drank water he drank til he puked. Barney is a very stubborn dog and my husband and I worked all day, so he spent a good deal of time alone. I even contacted a rescue org to see if that was the best thing for him. I felt like I couldn't give him the time or energy needed to train him (he was 6 months old when we got him). Plus, he was just 'different' than Maggie--my parents' sheepdog and love of my life and I was having a hard time bonding with him. I liked him a lot, but combined with all his training issues--he even growled at me--and him being different totally in personality than Maggie was, I wasn't sure I was up to it. And he chased the cats. It was more annoying than anything. I never really feared for their safety or anything, but it was just a huge disruption. I felt bad because he wasn't housetrained at all and had to spend a lot of time in the kitchen--the only place with tiled floors. I felt like we weren't able to spend enough quality time with him. Obviously, 3 years later we still have him. I just couldn't give him up. It was just something that gradually happened--we got used to each other and our routines got more in synch and he peed less in the house (although watch out if the doorbell rang!), the cats learned what to do to not get chased. It all calmed down for us. But those first couple of months with him were really rough. With ALL THAT  said, I just wanted to let you know that of course you know your situation the best and I'm sure you'll do what's best for Cassie, but I just wanted to tell you some of my story, to let you know that it can be overwhelming and different than expected and trying and frustrating and hard, especially when you get them and they aren't that cute little puppy (which is easier to forgive). Barney was all gray and white by the time we got him, so we never even got to see much puppy in him.
I'm not trying to talk you out of it (it takes a lot to realize your dog might be happier elsewhere), but I just wanted to show you that it can get better...  |
barney1 wrote: I'm not trying to talk you out of it (it takes a lot to realize your dog might be happier elsewhere), but I just wanted to show you that it can get better... OK...today has been a terrible day for me, the ONLY thing I can think of is Cassie. I would LOVE for her to stay in my family. And I'm gonna try my damndest to keep her here. Today I was thinking, we'll jump head first into classes, after all its not just puppy training, its owner traing too right! I pray to God that we soon find a HOME, with a fenced yard, that she may go outside, play and romp around leash free... when ever she wants. Wish me luck, and the strength to realize what is best for Cassie, and the strength to follow through with it. Thank You ALL for the kind words and support. Kelly |
| Good luck Kelly. It may be a long road with hard work and dedication but the rewards will be immense. |
| Keep the appointment to get her spayed, let her heal up, then get her into obedience classes as soon a possible. You CAN do this but you need to be consistent, set limits and closely supervise Cassie when she's with your other pets.
Your little Italian Greyhound being a senior probably has a different level of activity than Cassie. It seems she would be most happy interacting with the cats but I've never actually had one so I may be wrong. It's not to say that Cassie will never be able to... it's just she's still a puppy and will have that level of energy for probably a couple of years anyway. So you will probably need to exercise her well to keep her more calm. ALWAYS remember that rescue is available if you need help. And please keep us posted on how the training is going! 
Best wishes to you and Cassie~ |
| Kelly,
We have a 2 year old berner, and they are wonderful, wonderful dogs after they get through the puppy stage. Berners are great dogs, but do require alot of exercise when they are young. I'm so sory for your situation. If you are serious about looking for a new home for Cassie, please let us know. My husband and I are wanting to buy, or hopefully adopt another bernese soon. I really cant stress how special they are. I hope everything works out for you. [email address removed. Cassie is not a Berner... -Ron] |
| Cassie is DEF getting spayed, whether she stays with us, or if she goes to another family. My fiancee Taylor and I have talked it over, and I told him I want to give it more time...get her spayed, take behavior classes, he agreed, we both love her so much, I just HATE to see her live out her days in a crate, not only because of the housebreaking, but the chewing!! We need an empty room for her, nothing but chew toys, and a bed for her, with out carpeting!! LOL We love our Cassie, and were gonna fight for her!! |
| Good for you! She will outgrow the chewing. We got Phoebe at 4 1/2 (they get over chewing before that). Her second owner had been crating her and Phoebe didn't seem to mind it. But, at some point, we stopped and she has rarely bothered anything. At some point, Cassie will stop chewing and, with food and other very tempting items kept up, you will be able to stop crating her when you are out. Even if you don't have a yard, I think it helps to have a window they can look out of. Phoebe loves to sit and look out the window. It is so nice to drive up and see her sweet face in the window. |
Doggygirl wrote: Phoebe loves to sit and look out the window. It is so nice to drive up and see her sweet face in the window.
Our Max used to do that - we called it watching TV - he was brain dead when he did it! My two now - not so much but they are usually plotting something. |
SassieCassie wrote: I just HATE to see her live out her days in a crate, not only because of the housebreaking, but the chewing!!
Here's the funny thing - they do outgrow a lot of this behavior. ESPECIALLY the chewing. Every day that goes by she gets a little closer to civilized. I was just thinking about this yesterday, not only with my own two year olds, but also my fosters. Sybil, a chewing fiend, has finally reached a stage where, though still a compulsive chewer (kind of rare at that age) she's basically learned what she can chew and what she can't. If I hadn't known better ("this too shall pass"  ), I probably would have wanted to return her to her breeder! (Oh, wait - I am her breeder - no reprieve there! ) None of my own dogs have been crated in months. I wasn't even really paying attention to the day-to-day freedoms earned for good behavior. One day I just looked around and went: "wait, no potty accidents. No digested purloined items to speak of (OK, that one may only be a week old in Sybil's case ) When did this happen? It's kind of nice.
The fosters still have to be crated more than I like, but day by day, without me even noticing it really, I've been able to trust them in an expanding set of circumstances. Both came with housebreaking issues. I can't remember the last time either one had an accident. Mainly now the crating is because Mags, who is still very much a baby, will chew on occasion and Heidi, who is not, gets hysterical when she sees my cat, so I don't trust her loose without me there to intervene if needed. She's been an interesting additional challenge since she jumps babygates  Yes - my house is baby gated too. It's all part of growing up.
I chuckle when I see people get all excited about their new puppy. Little do they know, I think...  You pay a steep price for puppy cute. That's why they're cute. So you don't kill them. Nature ain't stupid
And in this breed, puppyhood last a long time.....You're not the first to feel like it's overwhelming and you won't be the last. Then one day, if it all works out, you have Ms Perfect Dog. And then some day you may look at a puppy or another young rescue and you think wouldn't it be fun? And the next thing you know...
Humans! We're not exactly the smartest critters on the planet. Kristine  |
SassieCassie wrote: Cassie is DEF getting spayed, whether she stays with us, or if she goes to another family. My fiancee Taylor and I have talked it over, and I told him I want to give it more time...get her spayed, take behavior classes, he agreed, we both love her so much, I just HATE to see her live out her days in a crate, not only because of the housebreaking, but the chewing!!
Kelly, Cassie will be just fine if she has to spend her day in the crate. When I travel for work we do exactly what you're doing. When my husband leaves, he crates Bailey. Our dog sitter comes in around noon to let him out and play for a while. Then back in the crate until Tim comes home. It hasn't done him any harm - he's a very sweet dog. In fact, I'm sure we could leave him out of the crate now that he's 3 and way past his chewing days. But he likes his routine. When I'm working from home, he goes into his crate (we leave it open) and naps away the whole afternoon. You just need to make sure that you offset all of that nap time with exercise. Bailey gets a long walk before work and lots of play and attention after work. The walks are really important - it helps burn off all of that puppy energy. And you'll be amazed at the difference the training classes will make. Good luck! |
| A lot of what I am worried about is the room we dont have for her. A lot of you have homes, with fenced yards, and all that nice stuff that comes along with having a house. Well, I would like for you to have a test run, of what it is like in our 4 room apartment, dont let your dog in the yard, dont go outside with them off a leash. Try this for... I dont know a week.... Be gone 8-9hrs a day, and crate your dog the entire time, not because they will chew, but bcs they are not house broken, and dont forget to crate them before you go to bed. And gate off half the house, because you have a very nervous senior Italian Greyhound, and four cats. If we had a house, and a good size fenced yard, there would be no issue, we wouldnt worry about ANY of this because we would have room for her. And remember, your dog is at the crucial growing age of 8 months. She has energy that I can deal with, but not the space for her to properly let it out. I love her very much, and that is the only reason I even thought about letting her go to a place where she can find a home that is perfect for her. |
| I am wondering why you would rehome Cassie over the Italian Greyhound which you just rescued this week?
Cassie has been there for months and now you are talking about keeping a new dog over her. If they are not getting along bring the new dog back. I just think it's incredibly unfair. Also I lived for over two years with a Large dog and a small dog and two cats in a one bedroom apartment on the 3rd floor. You make it work. You take them out for long walks and they'll be fine. You take them to an area where they can run, like a dog park. I think you are jumping the gun because you are now in over your head with the new dog and you are upset that thing aren't working out the way you had planned. Did Cassie's problems bother you before the Greyhound arrived? You seemed to be bragging about her behavior just the other day. I am just very confused about this post. |
Anonymous wrote: Did Cassie's problems bother you before the Greyhound arrived?
You seemed to be bragging about her behavior just the other day. I am just very confused about this post. For everyone who is confused about this as well I want you to know that it is not Cassies behavior, there is NOTHING wrong with how she is acting, yes she needs obedience, that can be obtained, there is NO problem with this dog, and yes I was bragging about her, she has made a TREMENDOUS improvement since she has came here,and I am VERY proud of her. I just do not have the room that I feel she needs, I feel she deserves to have the room to romp freely, and play. like I said in my previous post if I had a house and a safe yard for her, there would be no issues with keeping her, because I would have the ROOM SHE NEEDS. I bring her to the dog park at least 3 times a week, I drive 30 mins to get there, I love going to the park with her, its like having a big yard that other people and there dogs come and visit you and yours. I cant do that with this IG, she is too old and it would be too stressful for her. And I am in NO WAY chosing this little IG over Cassie, I would LOVE to keep Cassie, she is a great dog. But "I just think it's incredibly unfair" to keep her in a crate for 8-9 hrs a day, the only reason I even started to crate her is because she is not house broken yet. And it is not that Cassie and Gracie(theIG) dont get along, they get along just fine, and will walk along side each other on walks. I believe that Cassie would be better off in a home where she can get what she needs. I took her out of a bad situation. She would have ended up with puppies, and in a shelter somewhere. I am just her stepping stone to a better home. Just because I cant save all of them, doesnt mean I am a bad person for not being willing to crate my dog all day, and night, and when I run errands. I cant give her what she needs, and to be honest with everyone, I'm glad I am realistic enough to realize that. I am sorry if I have stepped on any toes, but I cant sit back and allow this puppy to live her life out in half of an apartment, and a crate. I posted this in hopes of support, I did get it from some of you, apparently most of you think I should make her live in my apartment.. confined.. bored.. lonely. Now I am just angry because of all this negative feed back I am getting. But you know what. I know I am doing what is best for her. Not every breed is right for everyone, I am not giving her up because I am tired of her, I am doing it for her best interest. I acttually talked to Ingred this morning,(if you look in the rescue portion of this site you will see her e-mail, and number)she also believes that Cassie would be best in a home that is fit for her, with someone who has the amount of room she needs, and the experiance of the breed under there belt to take care of her. |
| I, for one, do not believe in crating a dog for 8/9 hours during the day, and then again at night. I think that is cruel, so I am happy that you realize that and are looking for another place for her.
An 8 month old puppy needs to run and play and get lots of excercise. You alone can tell if you are meeting those needs. If she is still not house-broken, then something is not working wrong. It should take no more than 3 weeks to house-train an adult dog if the proper set is available. Sometimes the best-made plans do not work out. She will be fine with Ingrid. Thank for caring about her. And for anyone who does rescue, we knew very well from the very first post in thsi thread that that Cassie was going to leave. Once a family has made up their mind, there is usually no going back. We just take the dog and find a new home. There is no need to force a family to feel guilty about it. Sh...t happens. |
Bosley's mom wrote: Sometimes the best-made plans do not work out. Thank you, and I just wanted to add this single thought. If I mentioned from the very second I joined this forum that Cassie was a rescue that I was going to help place her, or that I was her foster, I bet I would have gotten NO neg feedback for letting her go, but because I was going to TRY and give her a stable home, and failed... I got persecuted. I no longer feel welcome here, and to be honest dont want to put up with the sh*t, so this will most likely be my last post. I want to say Thank you to the few people who gave me kind words and support, and for the others, I hope your dogs are very happy with you, and am glad you are able to care for them, as I was unable to do for mine. Sincerely Kelly |
Quote: I cant give her what she needs, and to be honest with everyone, I'm glad I am realistic enough to realize that.
Oh Kelly... I'm so sorry. No one should ever be condemned for surrendering a dog to rescue. You're thinking of what's best for Cassie and THAT is what a good pet owner does. Please pick up the phone and call Ingrid... I'm 100% certain she'll bring Cassie in and find her a great home... one that will match her needs. She's done this for years and does a wonderful job. Only after assisting rescue for a few years did I come to understand that everyone's life style, living conditions and everyday pressures of family, work requirements and tolerance levels are different. This is why I had said that only you know what's best for you... each of us is different. And sometimes the only way to see if a dog and family are a match is to live together for a while. Give Ingrid a call and please PM me if you need help. |
| We have never had a fenced in yard. Our dogs have never been walked off leash, although we have driven to a dog park occasionally, and we found a tennis court off the beaten track where he could run a bit.
Our first dog was crated during the day at first for his own safety as well as our home's safety. He was 3 years old. Later in his life he lived with us in a 250-300 sq. foot home, traveling the country. You posted your dilemma and intentions here. Some agreed with you some were neutral and some disagreed. What did you expect, universal support? If your situation was easy and would lend itself to universal support, you wouldn't have been in such a quandary yourself. I didn't respond in this thread before now because ultimately the decision that you needed to make or have made (I'm still not sure) is yours alone. You know the situation better than you can possible convey in a few short paragraphs, and you're an adult who will need to come to grips with whatever decision you have or will have made. Just like the terrible decision whether or not to be in the doctor's office as your dog is released from misery, out of the options you have described whatever decision you make will be the correct one. You are the one who knows and loves your dog, knows and loves yourself and your family and knows your full situation the best. Everyone else is just bringing their own experiences and prejudices to the situation. Just know that everyone here wishes you and Cassie good luck in your respective futures. |
Bosley's mom wrote: And for anyone who does rescue, we knew very well from the very first post in thsi thread that that Cassie was going to leave. Once a family has made up their mind, there is usually no going back. We just take the dog and find a new home. There is no need to force a family to feel guilty about it. Sh...t happens.
Agreed. But you're missing a major component. As anyone in rescue knows, an important part of it is eduction. If you have an owner who is clearly wavering, you offer the person support first. Granted, more times than not you still end up taking the dog, no questions asked and no hard feelings. But some times when you're dealing with someone who is in over their head but not sure what they want, you give them options. If they want to make it work and it is doable, the dog stays in his home. Now Cassie's case is different because Kelly doesn't have that kind of history with the dog. But our rescue coordinator just spent weeks working with a woman who clearly didn't want to give up her dog but couldn't see her way out. We were already gearing up to take the dog just in case, but with some basic help the woman considered the options and realized "oh! I can do this. No problem". Just as you owe it to people not to make them feel guilty about giving up the dog, you also owe it to them and the dog to figure out exactly what kind of help they need. Kristine |
| This is the GREAT benefit of surrendering to and adopting from a GOOD OES rescue...
Benefits For Surrendering Family- OES rescue knows the quirks and requirements of the breed. A GOOD OES rescue will properly place a dog with a matching family. They are there for the dog should the owner die or can no longer care for the dog. Benefits For Adopting Families- After adoption support and there to take the dog back for any reason. This is not available if a dog is simply sold or placed through individuals. Cassie came from an individual so she wasn't properly matched with Kelly's lifestyle, tolerance or family. We all have different levels of what behaviors are acceptable and unacceptable. OES rescue... there are definitely MUCH worse alternatives.  |
Mad Dog wrote: Bosley's mom wrote: And for anyone who does rescue, we knew very well from the very first post in thsi thread that that Cassie was going to leave. Once a family has made up their mind, there is usually no going back. We just take the dog and find a new home. There is no need to force a family to feel guilty about it. Sh...t happens. Agreed. But you're missing a major component. Kristine I did not miss the point at all. I just do not believe in wasting a lot of time trying to educate and help people who clearly have already made up their mind. My comment was meant to deflect bad vibes away from an already bad situation and see about moving forward. If people feel they are going to be lectured and made to feel bad about a decision they already made, then they will not be so forthcoming and then cause rescue volunteers to waste alot of time...and the dog continues to suffer... Sometimes education and help is going to keep the dog in the home. But sometimes the owner has alredy made up their mind, and no amount of help, convincing etc will change it. That is what I was stating...Not that people shouldn't be educated in ways that can help. My experienced eye saw that right away..maybe not everyone did, so next time I will keep my opinions to myself. Sorry that you had to read it. |
6Girls wrote: OES rescue... there are definitely MUCH worse alternatives.
Is this our new motto?
It's a great alternative, for all the reasons you mention. Now all we need are a bigger pool of adopters who are looking for the following: Wanted: adolescent OES with little socialization and less training who isn't potty trained, will chew all of my valuables, needs to run flat out at least two hours a day, will harrass my cats, annoy my mature dogs, slobber on Aunt Tillie, tip over my toddler, follow me into the shower, can reach the top of the refrigerator, is smarter than my honor student, and needs more attention than all of my kids put together. I just can't understand why people are not lining up for these dogs?
Several of us have fantastic young girl dogs right now we know we have to place very carefully. They're fantastic dogs, but they're not your average pet and they're often too much for a normal household. But I also know the right home will come along. No breed is easy, but I don't think I'm too biased when I say ours is one of the harder ones to survive adolescence with. I'm truly not surprised that the majority who get turned into rescue are 6 mos - 3 years old. They should come with a warning label.
Kristine |
Bosley's mom wrote: And for anyone who does rescue, we knew very well from the very first post in thsi thread that that Cassie was going to leave. Once a family has made up their mind, there is usually no going back. While this is probably true in most cases, it isn't always. Like I said in my post, I contacted a rescue person about taking Barney from me. I was in over my head and things weren't going the way I had anticipated. But ultimately I couldn'y give him up. Sometimes people need the help to see that it can get better after a while, and sometimes they have already made up their minds and weren't really looking for advice. But I think it'd be better to go with the assumption that they are still looking for advice until otherwise stated. Kelly--I'm sorry you felt attacked. You were (and are) just doing what you feel is best for Cassie. And I find it interesting that 'Guest' was the person who wrote the most attacking message. I wish that people would feel free to write mean-spirited messages using their own usernames... |
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