OES and Puppy Mills
I want to open this thread up to any questions you guys might have about the puppy mill industry, USDA, pet stores, and anything regarding OES in the "dog industry." I can tell from the passion in the posts that I read that this is something you really care about, but I think the first step is really understanding this industry, and how facilities like those seen on Oprah can exist -- not only exist, but how they can be legal. I also have some pics and facts/figures to post about OES. None of the pics will be graphic, but I'm sure to many of you they will be upsetting, so if you prefer that I only hyperlink to the pics, I don't mind doing that. |
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| Welcome Kim, and THANK YOU for taking the time to join our forum and provide information. You will find many passionate people here eager to learn more and support you in your efforts. |
| I'm really glad you joined! I just read your response on the other thread and am so impressed with your studies, statistics and effort toward this cause.
Welcome! |
| welcome Kim |
| Kim---
I am really looking forward to reading information on your website and becomming more aware and involved in your fight against pet shop puppies and puppy mills in the future. Thanks for taking the time to educate all of us here on the forum.... |
| Welcome Kim! I am very glad you have joined the forum and am looking forward to reading your comments. |
| I can't seem to paste a table into the forum, but below are the cases of OES that I have worked so far.
1.Registry 2. DOB 3. date of purchase 4.approx. # weeks the puppy was when purchased (note, most OES are "old" by pet store standards) 5. Breeder's name 6. link to the "puppy report" 7. comments the buyer posted when filling out their report. OES are not popular in puppy mills, or pet stores -- of course they aren't a really popular breed to start with, but because of the age of these pups when they sell, pet stores shy away from the breed because to be profitable, the puppy needs to sell at its full price, usually within the first week of arrival at the store...especially large breeds. AKC 3/7/2003 6/7/2003 13 weeks $600.00 Sara Pruitt http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=47A0500 My dog only has one tear duct instead of four. Because of this, he's eyes are oozing puss and he's constantly bothered by his eyes. Drops prescribed by the vet have helped, but not a cure. Puppy's tail was not docked properly. Has trouble getting up sometimes (he's only 2). He has muscle spasms in his legs. Bad temperament. I had to take him through several obedience classes. ACA 12/17/2006 3/5/2007 11 weeks $0.00 Tom Rippee http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=43A3729 No problems noted APR 10/13/2007 1/6/2008 12 weeks $1,699.00 Scott Strobel http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=46B0066 Healthy APR 10/16/2007 2/10/2008 17 weeks $345.00 Bramlett, Marilyn (unlicensed) http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.as ... tt_Marilyn Healthy APR 11/26/2007 2/15/2008 12 weeks $750.00 Sharon Lanz http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=41A0027 Kennel cough; She does not respond to a whistle, a loud nose, I actually have to touch her and shake her to wake her. AKC 10/1/2004 12/1/2004 8 weeks $1,399.00 Tom Rippee http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=43A3729 Considering purchase. AKC 3/16/2005 7/21/2005 18 weeks $500.00 Debbie Turner http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=43A2939 Ear infection and diarrhea 9/11/2004 1/3/2005 16 weeks $1,372.00 Laurie Guevara (Andrew Hunte’s Daughter) Most likely imported from Hungary http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.as ... ara_Laurie He has an intense need to drink water. The vet said it was a psychological problem. 8/30/2001 11/2/2001 9 weeks $500.00 Devaron Zimmerman http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=48A0968 Healthy…wants to contact the breeder to thank them for producing such a great dog and possibly buy another dog. AKC 2/19/2007 6/9/2007 16 weeks $900.00 Zorana Harris (unlicensed) http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.as ... ris_Zorana Healthy |
| These are actual USDA inspections where OES were mentioned.
At the time of the inspection there were 4 Sheepdogs in the outdoor pen north of the Bichon building. This pen did not have enough shelter for the dogs contained. The house in this pen is only large enough to comfortably house 2 dogs. These other two dogs need to be moved to another pen that has adequate housing with appropriate bedding or an additional house with adequate bedding must be moved into this pen. This affects 4 dogs. http://www.petshoppuppies.com/inspectio ... 4-2004.pdf (Note, next is from a Hunte inspection) -In the "cough" sick room, there was a sheepdog puppy in a cage that was four square feet. The puppy measured 24 inches long and requires a cage with no less than 6.25 square feet. This does not take into account exercise requirements. http://www.petshoppuppies.com/inspectio ... 0-2003.pdf An Old English Sheep Dog was observed excessively shaking his head and scratching at the right ear. As the dog was scratching his ear, the hair fell forward and a reddened area of skin was observed. It is approximately 2" in diameter in the area of the base of the skull. (The dog would not come forward to allow the microchip number to be read, so the dog's identification could not be determined, however, the owner's father knows.) This dog must be seen and evaluated by a veterinarian. http://www.petshoppuppies.com/inspectio ... 6-2004.pdf There are two enclosures containing the sheep dogs by the barn that have standing water in them. Need to remove the water to protect the health and well-being of the canines. http://www.petshoppuppies.com/inspectio ... 3-2003.pdf |
PetShopPuppies.org wrote: -In the "cough" sick room, there was a sheepdog puppy in a cage that was four square feet. The puppy measured 24 inches long and requires a cage with no less than 6.25 square feet. This does not take into account exercise requirements. http://www.petshoppuppies.com/inspectio ... 0-2003.pdf I wanted to point this one out...not so much because it is Hunte, but because it demonstrates one of the cruelest parts of the commercial dog industry. USDA regulations use a formula to determine what size of cage is required (minimum requirement). This cage is defined as a "primarily enclosure" and for most breeding dogs (unlike this puppy at Hunte's) will spend their entire life. I'll attach an image that USDA actually passes out to breeders in order for them to learn how to measure a dog so that the minimum cage size is determined. But using the example above, the pup was supposed to have 6.25 square feet of cage space. This would be a cage only 30 inches X 30 inches. Keep in mind that the puppy was measured and determined to be 24 inches. This is only the floor space, the height of the cage needs to be only 6 inches taller than the dog -- regardless of whether it is a Chihuahua or a Great Dane. USDA does require that dogs be provided exercise -- I believe the breeder must take the dog out of the cage one time a day for 30 minutes -- 5 days a week. BUT, most kennels have a hundred or more dogs at any given time and some have thousands. So USDA said that if the breeder gives the dog 2X the floor space, then it is not required that the dog be taken out of the cage -- EVER! BUT, again another loop hole -- USDA decided that two dogs in the same cage would be considered exercise, so a breeder can have from 2 to 12 dogs per cage, and as long as each dog has that minimal floor space, they never have to let those dogs out. This is why you can watch a show like Oprahs and see dogs crammed together in small cages -- and then wonder "how can this be legal?" Image link of USDA handout. http://www.kimtownsend.com/images/usdameasurement.jpg |
| Thank you, Kim.
Back in the 80s my aunt, a former AH breeder, had to - literally - drag me out of a pet store. I saw a four month old OES puppy crammed in a tiny cage and wanted to get him out of there. I was ready to buy him on the spot. When she got me out of the store she told me two things: 1) Never-ever enter a pet store that sells puppies. If you enter one by mistake, tell the clerk you're so sorry you can't shop there but you just cannot support a store that sells puppies, and then walk directly out. 2) be glad on behalf of my chosen breed that the OES puppy was 4 months old. His lack of "sale-ability" meant they were unlikely to "restock". I can still see that puppy in my mind and it still kills me that I walked away from him, even though I know she was right. A couple of years ago or so two pet stores - part of a smaller chain - opened north of Milwaukee with much fanfare that they would be carrying puppies. And they did, for a short while. The local humane societies (two counties) plus my training club in the one county, mounted a campaign to (very nicely, as a matter of fact) ask them to reconsider carrying puppies or we would be forced to tell everyone who adopted/volunteered/trained with us (depending on the organization) to not shop at their stores. It took a few months, but they stopped carrying puppies and in recognition we encouraged people to shop there AND thank them for their decision when they did. I don't know - perhaps there were other contributing reasons, certainly we expected more of a fight. But either way it worked, so I know you can make a difference locally. Great website with tremendous information. Kristine |
| Glad you mentined #1 Kim. I NEVER do business in a store that sells puppies, for any reason. We have several Pet Stores in our area and I won't buy so much as a dog cookies from the ones that sell pups. |
| I would be interested in the following information. How long do pet stores keep their puppies? and What happens to them when they get too big or too old? I have a large pet store near my house. It is near an ice cream shop I like to visit. I stop by often to look around and price their dog food etc. I never buy anything. The can food is normally dusty (old). The puppies are normally there for about three to four weeks. Is this normal?
I found it interesting that they use to have the prices on the windows and now they too them down. I asked why and they said it helps them start conversations with customers. |
Madegg wrote: I would be interested in the following information. How long do pet stores keep their puppies? and What happens to them when they get too big or too old? I have a large pet store near my house. It is near an ice cream shop I like to visit. I stop by often to look around and price their dog food etc. I never buy anything. The can food is normally dusty (old). The puppies are normally there for about three to four weeks. Is this normal?
It really depends on the breed. Most of your small breeds like yorkies, maltese, etc. are only there for a week or so. As lovers of a large breed of dog, you know the "cute factor" for large breeds has about a 2 week window. At around 10 weeks, the long bones start "puberty" and you start to see a more gangly looking pup. If a large breed dog doesn't sell by 10 weeks, the price starts getting marked down and sales people are actually encouraged to push the sympathy sale. The pups are moved into a cage by themself so they look lonely. I think one of the most frequent questions I hear is "what happens to the puppies if they don't sell?" Pet stores employees are often taught to answer that the pups will be shipped back to the breeder, and I think this is a selling point for them. I have had many people tell me how they "rescued" the puppy they purchased because the pet store told them that it was getting ready to be shipped back to the breeder. I worked undercover in the puppy mill industry for many years and I have NEVER known a broker to ship a puppy back to the breeder, and most certainly NEVER because it simply didn't sell. The breeder does have the option, in some cases, to take a puppy back because of genetic disease, but not because it didn't sell. Puppies are marked down until they do sell. Since these dogs are just merchandise to pet stores, think of it like a Walmart sale -- what does Walmart do when something doesn't sell? They put it on the clearance isle and mark it down until it does sell. I have researched a few cases where the customer was given a dog that never sold. I have had a few $5 or $10 sales. I have had many $50 or $100 sales -- most of these were dogs over the age of 6 months. And, I think most pet store employees or former pet store employees will tell you their pup was a sympathy purchase after they were sickened by the pup sitting in the cage month after month. |
| I just don't know how you bear to do what you do Kim! I am thankful that you do but I don't know how you do it.
Do you have any suggestions for how us "average" pet owners can help? Obviously we can't all go hunt down puppy mills but other than refusing to do business with stores that sell puppies what can we do? |
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