Caretaker defends retail puppy stores
I work as a caretaker at a local pet store and while I expect nothing but criticism for opening my mouth-because people are needlessly cruel-I want to give my two cents. First off I'm a bit offended that all of you are grouping puppy stores into a mass of evil. Does that make me a puppy mill loving jerk just because I take care of the poor little things? I really don't like the idea of how pet stores work because I think everyone should have a free puppy but at the same time I know that this industry won't stop. It's all well and good that some of you say 'well it would stop if people stopped buying puppies from them'. So tell me something. We have over 20 puppies in our pet store right now. So where do those little things go? To rescue places that have limited funds and space? The the pound where they'll be killed? If there are only 10 pet stores in each state of the US, that is 500 pet stores in the US. If each store ONLY had 20 puppies...that's ONE THOUSAND puppies that would suddenly have to be taken away and put somewhere. So tell me how that would stop the industry. You'd just be killing puppies that did nothing wrong. As for the idea that vets don't come to the stores...I watch a nice vet come to our store every week and give all the new puppies an examination. It's my duty, as the 'kennel mommy' to watch for puppies that might be coughing or limping or acting sick-and I'm quite good at my job because I bitch until I get listened to. If a puppy is found to be sick, we immediately put them on medication-something I am also in charge of and quite good at doing. Every three weeks all the puppies get de-worming suspensions and distemper shots. Every morning their little water bottels are bleached-and then cleaned of course-and put back into their holders with a vitamin syrup that can also be used for horses. The sick puppies remain in a room away from the other, unsick puppies and every day their kennels are cleaned in the morning and then in the evening with bleach water. Their sleeping mats are sanitized in bleach water, as are their bowls-both are cleaned free of bleach after. That is what I do nearly every day of my life. I feed pupppies, clean their environment. medicate sicks puppies, etc. I also try and take out every single puppy we have and cuddle it just a bit. When I walk in the puppies let up a chorus of happy noises and every damn puppy I work with adores me like I'm their mommy-some of them follow me around even. If a puppy is seen not eating for a couple days, one of the employees goes to a grocery store and buys some tasty soft food to get them eating again-sometimes its because their sick and we take action there or maybe its because their new and are just nervous. I don't know whether or not Lambriar supports mills or not. I don't trust the hearsay of people who have never laid eyes on the place itself. But trust me...if I ever found out that my store DID supports mills...and KNEW it for a fact...I would be making a few phone calls and gettin the company shut down. So that was a long two cents but I felt I needed to defend myself after all those slaps to the face. Thank you for your time |
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| The deal is this: if people stopped buying puppies from pet stores, the puppy mills would have one fewer outlet for their product--and make no mistake, to them a puppy is a product, only good for the money it brings in.
If there were no market for the mills' products, the mills would go out of business. Or at least dramatically reduce their business. I don't think that anybody has claimed that vets do not visit pet stores, but that pet stores are far from ideal places for puppies to be socialized and to maintain optimal health. Bad pet stores are very, very bad places for puppies to spend time. I am not suggesting that yours is a bad pet store or that you are not a hardworking, compassionate person. For a puppy to get its best start in life, it should be bred only from healthy parents who are good representatives of their breed and free from genetic disorders and who have sound temperment. Puppies need to spend enough time with their mothers and litters to learn to be good dogs and they need to spend enough time with people to learn to trust and love and bond with them. If you have to work so hard to try to spend just a little time cuddling with the puppies, you have too much work to do to do as good a job as I'm sure you want to do in cuddling with the puppies and socializing them. I understand these are your work circumstances. But those are the living conditions of those puppies. I am glad that you are good at your job. Frankly, the fact that you have to 'bitch' until you are listened to regarding sick puppies or potentially sick puppies really helps make the point we are making. I am sure that you are a nice person and well intentioned. I disagree that everybody should have free puppies. Too many people are willing to shell out large sums of money and then go cheap regarding the money needed for good food, vet bills, not to mention spending time with their new puppy. Too many people discard their cute puppy when it is no longer cute or tiny or if it doesn't housebreak itself. Giving puppies away for free would only increase the odds that people get a puppy on impulse: to many people think that the only value is in what you paid for something. I am sure that is not your attitude, but I am pretty sure you have noticed it in the world. I find puppy mills to be needlessly cruel. |
| If you work in a pet store , the dogs come from puppy mills, and that means the people you work for support cruel puppy mills. Simple as that. Try tracing the paperwork I guarantee it will go back to a puppy mill . |
| Hey guys, loosen up. No one wants puppy mills to stay in business. We all agree that market forces are in play.
But for heaven's sake, give Dena a pat on the back and compliments for her loving care and dedication to her job. How many of us are as dedicated to our work place as she is. Don't blame her for puppy mills. Congratulations Dena and thanks for your loving kindness to all those lovable puppies. Hugs. George :D |
| Are you trying to convince us or yourself of the nobility of your profession?
I am sure that you, as an individual, are a good person who loves animals and takes excellent care of the animals in your care. That in no way changes the fact that the system you are working in is flawed and wrong. Global statistics show that pretty much 95% of all puppies sold in Pet Stores come from Puppy Mills which is why a vast majority of reputable Veterinarians, serious breeders and any dog rescue person you speak to will strongly discourage anyone from obtaining a puppy from a Pet Store. You can defend the practice of Pet Store puppies til you are blue in the face but facts are facts. It isn't very often that you can get a wide variety of organizations to agree on something but the knowledge and awareness that purchase of Pet Store puppies is illadvised is universal. Go ahead, GOOGLE IT............. I'll save you the time: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/puppy_mills.html http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_adoption_i ... g_a_puppy/ http://www.workingdogs.com/vcpuppymill.htm http://www.canismajor.com/dog/petstor.html#Source http://www.dfwdachshund.com/rescue/shoppe.shtml http://web.archive.org/web/200504070352 ... .htm#hunte http://www.kerryblues.info/index.html?h ... HYNOT.HTML http://www.caps-web.org/fact_sheet.php http://www.netpets.com/dogs/newsroom/crossbreeds1.html http://hometown.aol.com/KARENKATO/petstore.html Not convinced yet? Please read on http://dogs.about.com/cs/generalcare/a/pet_stores.htm http://hattrick-dals.home.att.net/10Reasons.html http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/buying ... shops.html http://dogplay.com/GettingDog/petshop1.html There are thousands, no hundreds of thousands of articles available that decry the practice of Pet store puppies. In the 20 minutes I have spent looking this up (for your education) I have not found one article defending the practice. Isn't it amazing that so many diverse groups, with different political leanings and Agendas absolutely agree on the issue? Could there be some truth to the FACTS? I am sure that the puppies in your care are well loved, but that does not change the fact that most, if not all, come from deplorable conditions and breeders that are more interested in making a buck than producing a healthy well socialized puppy. If you take the time to educate yourself instead of pleading your case in ignorance you might find that you want to become part of the solution not the remain a contributor to the problem. Sorry George, while I do not believe that the poster should be crucified for her lack of education neither do I think we should "loosen up" and let the opportunity for enlightment to pass. Every animal loving person who takes the time to become educated and aware contributes to the solution to this horrific problem. |
| VERY well said...Ginny...Thank you for being tackful,yet getting a very important point across..
Dena does seem to be a loving, caring person. I would suggest her maybe trying to switch jobs ----there are many many careers that she could change to and become an advocate of puppies welfare as opposed to having to defend her "employer" who obviously has issues with the health and welfare of his "inventory"....... |
| I see where you are coming from, Dena, because I have friends who volunteer their time in pet stores in order to help those puppies have as good of a start to their lives as possible.
However, I would argue that a better use of my friends time would be finding and helping the parents of those puppies and getting them out of the deplorable conditions they are likely in. If doing this isn't possible (in most cases it isn't) the next best thing is to stop supporting the major endorser of the puppy mill, which is the pet store. As others have already posted, if pet stores didn't buy from puppy mills, puppy mills would lose most of their business and the endless cycle would begin to stop. YOU are doing a good job making sure your puppies are loved, but I believe that by continuously getting in new puppies (no matter how well they are treated) the abuse and neglect suffered by the thousands of parents out there continues to increase. It's a hard road but thanks for getting your views out there. |
| A good friend of mine here in Canada used to live in the states.
When she was young she worked for a pet store, and was the person at the airport un-loading the crates of 4/5 week old puppies being flown in from the mills. She hand-fed them, and nursed them as best she could...Many arrived dead and many died in her arms shortly after their arrival. She quit that job because she could not morally be part of an industry contributing to the misery of the breeding dogs and their offspring. Now she does rescue, and is involved in transporting shelter dogs from the states that are slated for gasing. It doesn't pay her bills, as it is all volunteer, but she is a lot happier about the animals she is saving and is she is not helping the millers line thier pockets. There is no excuse. You are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Pick one. |
 how sad |
| Dena, thank you for presenting your side of the story. But as everyone has said, we are not blaming you personally, just the industry in which you work. I'm sure the puppies in your care are treated well, but can you say the same for every pet store everywhere? We only touch on the dog issues here, but I'm sure the same can be said for the cats, birds, reptiles and fish sold at the stores.
Ginny, Emily and Nicole have all said our collective concerns very well. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: Global statistics show that pretty much 95% of all puppies sold in Pet Stores come from Puppy Mills which is why a vast majority of reputable Veterinarians, serious breeders and any dog rescue person you speak to will strongly discourage anyone from obtaining a puppy from a Pet Store.
Ginny, do you have a link to where those stats are from? I'm wondering how they were compiled and who did them. One of the pet stores by us will take unwanted puppies from people and sell them. I'm not crazy about that either but, in talking to one of the girls there, she said over half of their puppies come from people just coming in and handing them over. Then they get them vet checked (by a very reputable vet in the area), shots and the like and then they go up for sale. (Then they charge way too much for them.) It's rather odd and, overall, I'm still uncomfortable with it but at least they aren't from mills. |
| Jill, several of the articles I sited above gave figures between 90 to 100%. I don't have time right now to go back and find the specific ones but I know I did reference several. If I have time later I will. |
| http://www.mydog8it.com/puppy_mills.htm :
"The majority of the puppies sold in pet stores come from breeding farms called puppy mills." http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/buying ... shops.html "Pet Shop Puppies Every pet shop that sells puppies will assure you, solemnly, that their puppies are different. Their puppies don't come from puppy mills, but from fine local breeders. Pillars of the community, in fact. The reality is that responsible breeders will never place one of their puppies in a pet shop or anywhere else for resale or consignment. Never, ever, ever. Any breeder who has placed their puppy in a pet shop to be sold has immediately disqualified himself as a responsible breeder. " http://www.kerryblues.info/index.html?h ... HYNOT.HTML "The overwhelming majority of pet store puppies come from puppy mills. Puppy mills are nothing more than inhumane breeding factories" http://www.almosthomerescue.org/petstore/petstore.htm "The fact that the vast majority (estimates are as high as 95%) of puppies sold in pet stores come from puppy mills has been well documented." http://www.dachsie.org/petstore.html "Pet store puppies are usually AKC Registered. This does not mean that they are quality dogs. Backyard breeders who sometimes find it difficult to sell puppies may also "wholesale" to pet stores, but generally the majority of puppies in the pet stores come from bonafide puppy mills, who exist soley to produce "livestock" to sell at as a big a profit as they can. " I found this site: http://www.petshoppuppies.org/index.htm while looking for information. I have sent them an email asking for more concrete "facts". |
| This is nothing personal (of course), Ginny, but those are ALL estimates from what it seems. Don't get me wrong, I'm against puppy mills and anyone who supports them but, similar to the discussion we had on how many homeless animals there are in the United States, there is no central place for statistics so all we get are bits and pieces with beliefs thrown in.
I find it hard to make an argument about how many really are in there when, it seems, no one has any standardized way of actually counting numbers for this. I think the information would be nearly impossible to get considering that pet stores aren't going to keep track of how many dogs are from actual mills and then supply that information to the public. Then all that info would have to be entered into a nationwide database for it to have any sort central place to base numbers off of. Again, I don't deny that a large amount of puppies do come from mills and commercial breeders and I'm not disagreeing that the number could actually be very high, but I'm dissatisfied with the lack of real statistics available from reputable sources. I wish I could somehow tie this to my doctoral dissertation so I'd have a reason to do it... |
| You are right, they are all anecdotal estimates. But it does seem interesting that the sites all seem to have the same "estimation". I am not sure how you go about getting "valid" numbers, every organization has their own "agenda".
I did email petshoppuppies.org to see if they could provide any verifyable statistics and will let you know if I receive a reply. Places like HSUS and PETA are not reliable, but what about reports by organizations like NBC Dateline, which also uses the word "a majority" in their reporting. I don't know where absolute valid data comes from because as has been mentioned on many of the sites, the pet shops aren't about to give you an honest answer. |
| Yeah, it's tough because you really can't get dependable information on stuff like this. A lot of animal stats seem to be based on what I call "telephone" data, like the kid's game. One person reports that 50% of all dogs in shelters end up euthanized. The next person reads that and embellishes it to 50 to 60%. The next person reads it and puts their own spin on it and calls it 65% of all cats and dogs. By the time it makes its rounds, it's as high as it can go without being 100%! Again, I'm making the data up but I think the concept is pretty valid. I don't think anything short of some sort of mandate making all pet stores register all its puppies (not with the AKC, but almost like a permit) and making that info available would really give us the info we want. Like I said, I find it frustrating because I just want to know the complete truth. |
ButtersStotch wrote: I don't think anything short of some sort of mandate making all pet stores register all its puppies (not with the AKC, but almost like a permit) and making that info available would really give us the info we want.
Including the dead ones that arrive and the ones that die in thier care. What I do know is that there are many, many puppy mills out there and thier puppies are being sold somewhere...But the internet and online purchasing might reduce the pet store sales...not that it is any better to buy a puppy from a miller on-line...But it makes it harder to track. Thene there are the brokers, who buy them from the mills and keep them in their garage or shed and sell them on Kiijii-like places..Again, very hard to track. |
| Well, I don't know for absolute certain where pet stroes get their animals but I do know that no reputable breeder would sell to a pet store so that narrows the options.
I know the pet stores in my area (that sell puppies) don't take puppies from individuals. |
| I would think the news outfits use whatever published source they can to support their story. I doubt they do any independent research on th etopic if such exists. of course HSUS and PETA have published numbers that then gret picked up/ On anothe list there is some discussion of the Mexmutt phenomenon and how that plays into a real puppy mill problem etc. |
| I did receive an email today from Kim Townsend of petshoppuppies.org which I am printing below (with her permission):
Hi Ginny, this isn't an easy question to answer because everyone has a different opinion of what a puppy mill is. Of the 7432 cases I have researched to date, 875 (or 12%) came from unlicensed breeders, so that would mean that 88% come from licensed commercial breeders. The USDA has an exemption for licensing if a breeder has 3 or fewer female dogs. So if the law was followed and no one ever illegally sold to a broker or pet store (meaning they had more than 3 female dogs and did not have a USDA license), then we could assume that 88% of puppies in pet stores come from USDA licensed commercial breeders. However, in about 50% of the cases I have researched on unlicensed breeders, I have been able to verify that they indeed do have more than 3 females. I generally do this by searching the web for a website they have, or ads they have run online for puppies. There was a time when I took the time to file a complaint with USDA, but all that ever happened was USDA went and licensed the breeder -- I just don't have the time or inclination to be doing USDA's job for them and since it is a clear violation of federal law to sell puppies to pet stores or brokers if you have more than 3 females, I get angry that USDA does not prosecute these people when they are caught red-handed. So, if we now take those 50% that were supposed to be licensed and move them in to the commercial breeder category, that leaves 6% coming from small "hobby breeders" and 94% coming from commercial breeders. But there is still a problem with those numbers. When a breeder is licensed I can easily look up their address and verify that they even exist! In about 80% of the unlicensed breeders I research, I have only a name. The pet store customer was given absolutely no information other than that. How am I to track down a breeder when all the customer has is Bill Smith on their paperwork -- no city or no state, and most certainly no address. If you Google Bill Smith you get 649,000 matches on Google. If you add "puppies" to your search of Bill Smith on Google, you get 17,300 matches. I would guesstimate that in only about 1% of the unlicensed breeders that I research, I can semi-verify that they are indeed someone that just had two dogs and bred them and then sold the puppies to a broker or petstore. That's not to say that the remaining are puppy mills or commercial kennels, it just means that I can't verify it either way. So, erring on the side of caution, it is my professional opinion (10 years of researching puppy mills and pet shop puppies) that 94% of puppies in pet stores are unequivocally coming from commercial breeders. That I can document -- it is my personal (not professional) opinion that 99% of puppies in pet stores come from a breeding facility that the pet store customer would find completely unacceptable and never would have bought a puppy from the breeder if they would have seen the parents of the puppy and the life they are forced to live. I hope that helps. Kim Townsend http://www.petshoppuppies.org The above information was provided by Kim Townsend, founder and president of PetShopPuppies, Inc., a federal 501(c)(3) charitable organization. www.petshoppuppies.org offers free "puppy reports" to the customers that buy pet shop puppies. Their ultimate goal is to educate the consumer about the commercial dog industry, but they also provide invaluable data about those puppies to animal welfare organizations, the media, and the public. |
| The message below is from Kim Townsend, she has been trying to post today herself but has run into some kind of "block" that will not allow here to posr (Ron, she said she receives a message that says "spam" not allowed). It is interesting to see her oes connection!!
Thanks to Ginny for bringing this thread to my attention. To the original poster, I want to say that many pet store employees have contacted me over the years -- all insisting that their bosses assure that their puppies don't come from puppy mills. Since Lambriar was mention, I can say with almost 100% certainty that the puppies come from USDA licensed commercial breeders -- such as those seen on Oprah. I have hundreds and hundreds of cases on Lambriar, the URLs below: http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=48b0043 http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=48b0043a http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=48b0043b http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=48b0043c http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=48b0043d If the original poster wants to contact me privately at kimtownsend@hughes.net and share the pet store name where she works, I will give her a confidential report I have on the pet store and she can see all of the different breeders where the puppies come from, and often times, USDA inspections and inventory reports on those breeders. When I first started this fight 10 years ago, I used to attend dog auctions regularly. The last auction I went to was about 8 years ago. I stopped going because of two OESs being auctioned off. It was a teenaged OES and its mother. The mother was shaved clean, with open sores from razor burns and cuts. The pup was about 8 months, and was so matted that he couldn't take steps because his fur had matted to his hocks. I don't know why these two dogs hit me so hard, but I had to leave the auction and have never been back to one since then. Several years later someone contacted me that had attended the same auction. She had taken a hidden camera in the auction, and in part of the clip another OES was sold from the same breeder. I'll let the video speak for itself. http://www.youtube.com/PetShopPuppies is our youtube channel and you want to watch the Dog Auctions video. While there is nothing graphic in this video...all perfectly legal auctions, I know it will be hard to watch, but I encourage all OES lovers to take a few minutes and force themselves to view it. If you have any doubt how abused these animals are in mills (mind you, USDA licensed and legal mills) this video will convince you just how commercialized dogs are and how they are very much nothing more than livestock. |
| Sickening. |
| How horrible, can nothing be done to stop these places |
jean wrote: How horrible, can nothing be done to stop these places
There's a very simple way to stop these places: people stop buying puppies from these sources. Though, frankly, that's probably not going to happen because there are a lot of people who couldn't get a puppy from a reputable breeder, or don't want to go through the hassle of finding and dealing with a reputable breeder (who will ask them lots of tough questions and insist on staying in touch for the life of the puppy) or who would just prefer to believe what the nice people in the pet stores (or online) tell them because it's convenient. Hand over credit card, few questions asked. Simple. Too many people do more research before buying a new vaccuum cleaner than they do a dog. The other option, of course, is to outlaw breeding all together in this country. Some states are well on their way towards that. That way we can create a nice incentive for an increase in the already ongoing smuggling of puppies from, say, Mexico. It will be as lucrative a drug smuggling, but the criminal penalties are only a fraction. Bottom line is people want their puppy fix and as long as vast numbers of them don't care where the puppy came from - there you go. I know it's disgusting to most of us that puppies are being treated as livestock, or worse, but that's the way to bring the product as inexpensively as possible to market. Supply-demand. Kill the demand and the supply will dry up because it is no longer profitable and it's a purely profit driven venture. Ginny - nice work! Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: [
Ginny - nice work! Kristine The Thanks really goes to people like Kim who do this thankless work and those on this board who pick up the pieces of these shattered dogs and make them whole again. One thing I know for certain, the next animal that comes into this house will be a rescue. My hope is that the "guest" who started this thread will realize that while they may be a wonderful animal loving person they are ultimately contributing to a process that is damaging. |
| Yippee, I'm finally a member! Kudos to Ron for helping me register and keeping the evil spam-bots at bay!
For fear of hijacking Dena's original post, I will start a new thread in case anyone has any questions about the puppy mill industry, or OES in mills and pet stores. I'm not sure which forum is appropriate, but I'll entitle it "OES and Puppy Mills." |
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