HELP! Nikki has another side
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| Lucy,
I'm certainly no expert in this area but I can tell you that Baily, my year old, and Maggie, my 9 year old are at it once and awhile and they have been together for 10 months. 10 days is not a very long time and both dogs are feeling out where they belong in the pecking order of the pack. I would certainly keep an eye on the situation particularly where your son is concerned. When Nikki over steps his bonds, Lucy will let him know. I've never had a male OES (5 females in 25 years) but I know that the girls can be a handful and the boys are probably a bit more troublesome. Is Nikki neutered? I'm sure there are others on this site who can give you good advice and don't be afraid to ask for it. Good luck with the new addition. |
| Were you working with any of the Rescues? I would see if they can help you - he may not be able to be fostered in a home with children and/or another dog. You are doing everything you can for him - but your dog and children come first. If you can't continue fostering him - see if they can help you place him in another foster home.
He's just trying to take over the position of Alpha and usually this doesn't last very long - especially since it sounds like Lucy isn't interested in the position anyway. However, you don't want Lucy getting hurt in the process (or you for that matter!). Go with your head on this one - if you think he needs to be placed somewhere else - don't hesitate to get some help! Sounds like he needs "Boot Camp"! Kristen |
| I had a problem like that a while back - we got an oes from a rescue home and he had some problems. We didn't have another dog at the time and he was aggressive and growling (mainly towards me) and eventually bit me. I feel so guilty about this as we returned him to the rescue centre as I was terrified of him. The more comfortable he got, the more confident he felt and the worse it got.
Now, having read a lot about this type of behaviour (as I don't want to make any mistakes with Harry), it would appear that he was displaying all the symptoms of a dog confused about his pack status. I wish I had read the books sooner as I'm sure I could have dealt with him better, rather than return him, but it can't be helped. There is a chapter in The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation, by Jan Fennell that deals with extended packs (in this case two dogs that were vying for the leader of the pack position). It is far too long to write down and I would probably be infringing some copywriting issue (!) but I have to recommend it. She managed to show the dogs that it was pointless to try the position of leader as it was already taken by the owner. It is really interesting reading and I thought it was very helpful. Really am going to stress that I am no expert at all, I've only had Harry for a month, and he's only 3 months old! Just wanted to try and help as I know how hard it was when we had Joe and I know that I will always feel guilty about not trying harder with him. Best of luck with him, Gillx |
| Thanks. I have understand what you are all saying. I have seen dogs "fighting" of Alpha position but this doesn't seem like that is it. I am not explaining it very well. It really seems more than that. I contacted the rescue group that I am working with and eplained them"all of the situations, it took a whol page, and they were concerned if we needed to put him down. I hate to do that. We just rescued him. But he definately need to find a home for him with out any children or other animals. They are working on finding a more suitable foster or forever home for him. I am worried about my sons safety. It's just doesn't seem like a alfa thing or if he just had a more aggressive personallity than I would understand. But you just don't know what he is thinking. He will out of the blue reach over and bit Lucy and than just nothing. I had a friend who had a dog like that. He would bit you with out any warning. No growl no stairdown just all of the sudden would get in themood to bit someone/thing and would. Maybe I am wrong but he almost doesn't seem stable. I really think that he needs to be in a home with out kids or any other animal. If a dog is fighting for alpha isn't it consistant. Isn't it a more consistant action that takes place? Like everytime they are feed or everytime the are walked or evertime the see each oter. I think even if it was directed at me I would feel more comfortable if it was consistant. It not. |
This is unfortunately one of the downsides to Rescue - sometimes you can't save the dog and the best thing for everyone involved is to put them down. It's absolutely heart breaking - I know!  Rescue organizations do everything they can to avoid it - but temperment can't be changed - you can only change behaviors!
Noone should have to go through what you are going through! No dog should have to go through what Nikki is going through! 
This is one of the reasons I am so passionate about ethical and responsible breeding programs! Temperment is so important in a breeding program! Selecting the proper homes is so important and being responsible for every puppy that you have bred (for the life of the dog!) is so important! You are a Rescue Angel - you have definately earned your wings! Hang in there! You're doing everything you can to help Nikki! Hugs! Kristen |
Gill wrote: Now, having read a lot about this type of behaviour (as I don't want to make any mistakes with Harry), it would appear that he was displaying all the symptoms of a dog confused about his pack status. I wish I had read the books sooner as I'm sure I could have dealt with him better, rather than return him, but it can't be helped.
This same thing happened with my Aunt - and a St Bernard she rescued. She returned him to and is feeling like if she had only read The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation, by Jan Fennell first - she could have done something to help keep him. However, you (and my Aunt) did what was right at the time and neither of you should feel guilty about returning them. I wish some of the Rescue organizations would do a better job with screening these dogs before placing them - so they don't end up in a unsuitable placement and the adopters don't get heartbroken in the meantime. Failed placements often turn people off to Rescue - which effects other dogs and rescues that need all the help they can get!
Kristen |
| I don't think anyone would judge you if you decided to give him back - I certainly wouldn't. It is the most horrible feeling, having to do it. I desperately wanted to give an abandoned dog a home with lots of love and care and it just didn't work out like that.
I think that sometimes their problems are too deep-rooted. I know if I had been chained my whole life, for example, I would have a huge number of issues. We had to give Joe up as we have friends with babies and toddlers - if he can take a chunk out of me (I am 5'10" and not scrawny, sadly!!), I was terrified what he could do do a 2 year old. It was a chance I was not prepared to take. I think that it would have taken a long time to build up his trust but I couldn't handle the thought of anything going wrong in the meantime. I know I'm not being particularly helpful, or offering any solutions, I just wanted to sympathise with you and wish you the best, whatever you choose to do...x ps. BritPresSyd wrote: However, you (and my Aunt) did what was right at the time and neither of you should feel guilty about returning them.
Thanks Brit  |
| I am so sorry to hear about Nikki. It is clear that you are trying your very best and have the best intentions but please don't be sad--most of us could not handle such an unpredictably aggressive dog. And you should not take risks with a child who could be seriously injured. I have been reading about the Heart to Heart Auction in the rescue section of the forum. Do you think Nikki might be a good candidate for them -- they seem to take the dogs that just can't be placed in homes.
http://www.hearttoheartoesrescue.org/ Let us know whatever you decide. I support whatever decision you make as I am sure everyone on this board will do as well. |
| Thank you all for your support!! Just to clearify I am only fostering Nikki. This is the first foster dog I have taken in. I am winging this as I go. I feel so badly for this little boy. However, I would never forgive myself if something happen to someone. Again, thank you all for your support!!
alison |
I have nothing to offer in the way of advice, but just want to say that I wish you all the best in fostering. You have a big heart, and hope that everything turns out well.
 Stormi and co. |
| I've recently volunteered to foster as well... so I'm a little nervous about how things will go. I have fostered many many times before, dogs, and cats, but never a sheepie! LOL And not since I have had Dancer and Sky. I think my house is pretty well set up for it though, we can keep them separated if necessary without isolating any one of them. |
| HOw are things going with Nikki? I hope things are getting better for you all. |
| Thanks for asking. Things are better. He finally seems to have settled down and feel more comfortable. I started to think I over reacted but yesterday I was in the kitchen and Lucy really wanted to play with Nikki. I guess he wasn't in the mood. Well, I didn't see it but the sounds that he made, I thought lucy would be covered in blood. She wasn't. She's limping but no skin was broken so I think she ok. He seems to go for her stomach rather than her neck. But really over all things are better. He really is very tense and serous if that makes any sense explaining a dog that way but he is. I really think he was beaten bc he will tuck his tail under him like someone used to "spank" him. It is just so sad. I don't understand why people get dogs just to treat them bad. He is very sweet and will sit next to you all day if you pet him. He would make a very good dog for someone older without children or other pets. He would gaurd them totally and lay on the cauch next to them and kiss them all night long. I would hate it for the person that tried to break into my house or hurt me. I have no doubt he would take care or them FAST> Haven't had many inquires but he is fine here for however long he needs us> Happy holidays! |
| Hi,
I've been thinking about you and wondering how things are coming along? Don't be discouraged as you're doing the best you can under the circumstances. It sometimes takes months and years to rehabilitate a rescue dog especially if there has been abuse in their background. The only advice I can give is never let your guard down and always be watching the activity that is going around Nikke and prevent any triggers. You're doing a good job! Happy holidays to you as well and lets hope this boy finds a home in the New Year. Marianne |
 That is the bad thing about rescue it sounds like the dog has been abused and other dogs and children should not be around him. He should be with a trainer to know what he needs before he is placed in a home I would take him back and ask them if they thought about training and placing him in a home with no other dogs or children. He needs disapline |
Gill wrote: There is a chapter in 'The Dog Listener' that deals with extended packs (in this case two dogs that were vying for the leader of the pack position).
BINGO. Gill, you've hit this nail right on the head. Thank you. I'm a huge believer in this book ... I tried some of its suggestions on my own pack of dogs (a 3 y/o F OES and a 9 y/o M Chow/Akita mix), and every one of them worked. L/T ... if you're going to foster more dogs (God bless you!! Don't give up!!), you need to learn how to be the absolute alpha in your pack, no matter how many are in it at any given time. To its canine members, the pack membership changes every time somebody leaves or comes in under your roof. The only thing that cannot change is who's the alpha: YOU. You'll probably have tougher foster cases than this to come. Please read The Dog Listener, Jan Fennell, Harper-Collins, 2002. You can get it anywhere, and it's reasonably priced. I wish I'd had this book available before I had the spirit of my older dog broken. Had I known that all he needed was reassurance of who was driving the bus, not nazi-style reprogramming, he'd be a very different dog today. It makes me sick every time I think about it, like now 
I would treat this dog as a "special needs" placement: either with no other animals, or in a home where a healthy pack environment is understood and maintained. [EDIT: You can see or buy the book here: The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation -Ron] |
TLH wrote: :o That is the bad thing about rescue it sounds like the dog has been abused and other dogs and children should not be around him. He should be with a trainer to know what he needs before he is placed in a home I would take him back and ask them if they thought about training and placing him in a home with no other dogs or children. He needs disapline
It isn't only rescue dogs that can behave like this. This is probably the reason he was in rescue in the first place! Most often this behavior is due to the "temperment" of the dog which is a hereditary/breeding issue - not because the dog has been mistreated and/or abused. Poor breeding is most likely to blame for this behavior - as it is in most cases! Kristen |
| In our case, we had trouble for the first two weeks when we adopted Sofa and fostered Frida at home. The pack suddenly changes and everyone is trying to prove they are on top. Add that with a new environment for the new dog, new rules, new people new sounds, etc and you can understand why a dog is acting loopy... I certanly will.
We had to let them adapt to each other and kept a very close on them to avoid fighting, but it can be managed. Under no circunstances it's OK for a dog to bite or be aggressive to people, but most of the time it can be related to and adjustment period. When my niece comes to visit there's alway an adjustment period between her and Lennon... For some reason he does not like her. We keep a very close eye on them and after a couple of days things go back to normal. I'm glad to hear things are better, you are an angel for adopting. Lennon and Sofa are always challenging each other. Sofa's personality is submissive, but she wants to be alpha too, so they fight a lot sometimes. Like L/T metioned, they sound like by the time you get there, you will find an injured dog, but most of the time it's just a lot of noise and fur. I used to worry a lot, now I just yell at them and send them to their corners if they fight. L/T, be very consistent and patient, you'll see that things will get better with time and you'll end up with a friend for life. Good Luck! |
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