A Few Questions About Hip Displaysia
Now that we've gotten that out of the way 
We've had our OES for about a year now and he's been a great dog so far. We'd like him to be healthy and happy for many years to come so that's what has prompted me to post a few questions on HD. So here are my questions... 1) Given that our guy comes from a clean line, what are the chances of him developing HD? Is HD something that eventually will happen to bigger dogs or is it more likely to hit the dogs that are too "chubby" or "inactive"? 2) At what age does HD first show signs, or can it vary widely? 3) Is there anything we can do as owners to reduce the likelyhood of HD occurring? |
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| Hiya.
Just want to clarify something: there's no such thing as a "clean line". This is why: CHD has a polygenic mode of inheritance. This is a somewhat small gene pool and though the rate of CHD has been decreasing (and also the degree of severity) in lines that are screened (predominantly the show lines, not so much in unscreened lines), I think it's safe to say that some of those pesky little genes that cummulatively could result in CHD are behind all of our dogs to some degree or another. Did you mean that parents and grandparents and so on were screened for CHD? If so, wonderful! That in itself is still not a guarantee, but it lessens the likelihood that your dog will develop hip dysplasia. Genetically speaking, your dog is either predisposed or not. If predisposed, yes, carrying extra weight can worsen the symptoms and speed up the onset, as opposed to if the dog is kept in good weight and muscled up - the latter being a good thing for all of the dog's joints whether predisposed to hip dysplasia or not. Onset of clinical symptoms? In moderate to severe cases, it can show up pretty early, usually less than a year old: we had a rescue last year who was only five months old when he started limping. That's how he ended up in rescue - his owners didn't want to deal with it. With dogs that are detected that young, it's typically discovered because there were suggestions of a problem (limping, bunny-hop gait, difficulty getting up). Others may show radiographic evidence of (usually mild) CHD at a later age and are never symptomatic, but it's picked up as part of routine screening. Bottomline? Even if you have little to no reason to suspect that your dog is likely to develop hip problems, some wise things to do to protect all joints are not ask the dog to perform repetitive high-impact activities until the growth plates are closed (you want to avoid damage to the growth plates - on average this happens around 14 mos old in larger breeds, but that's just an average - I do agility, but I don't start jumping my dogs at full height until they are closer to 2 years old just to be safe), switch to an adult food by 5-6 months at the latest (or at least feed a large breed puppy food, though it really isn't necessary beyond that age) make sure he doesn't get fat, and make sure he's really well-muscled. Will a dog who has been very active throughout its life show some signs of wear and tear in his senior years? Much like human athletes, I don't think it's unlikely. You balance that against a dog who has probably been kept very fit throughout his life, and the dog is still probably better off at 10 yrs + than your average couch potato. Kristine |
I didn't mean to make it sound like he's "impervious" to HD...and I totally did! I gotcha...  |
The_Grudge wrote: I didn't mean to make it sound like he's "impervious" to HD...and I totally did! I gotcha...
Nah, I kind of figured you probably got him from a reputable breeder and that you weren't concerned about specifics, rather just wanted more general info.  But, you know, for someone who didn't necessarily understand the context, it could be confusing.
Some day, if the Ostrander Hip Dysplasia study is successful, we may be able to truly clear our dogs of CHD. But even with a genetic test, it will take time. With phenotype testing alone (x-rays), well, it does help quite a bit, but it's by no means 100%. Still, I can't remember the last time I heard of a breeder who screens producing anything more than the very occasional mildly dysplastic dog. That apparently wasn't the case 30 years ago. So it does help. That's why I'm forever harping on people who are looking for a puppy to walk away from anyone who doesn't bother screening. Kristine |
The_Grudge wrote: I should make one thing clear before continuing with this thread. My dog does not show any signs of hip displaysia. He's only a year old and he comes from a clean line...
As Kristine (Mad Dog) says there is no such thing as a clean line, take Germany for example: we have 2 breed clubs in Germany for the OES in the one, the Dam can have a mild form of HD and still be used for breeding, in my opinion not very intelligent if you want to rot out HD in a breed of dog, in the other club the dogs are allowed to be a border case when used for breeding. Clear lines means for me the Dam and Sire were free from HD, but not only them, their ancestors going back to the sixth generation including all the litter brothers and sisters were also free. Then we could talk about a clean line, unfortunately this will never happen then not every puppy buyer has their dog X-rayed and then you will never know the percentage of HD in your litters and some breeders do not want to know this. I personnally do not know of any signs that will point to HD unless the dog has a serious case of HD, however I would advise you to have the dog X-rayed at about 15 - 18 months to be 100% certain of the state of their hips. |
dairymaid wrote: Clear lines means for me the Dam and Sire were free from HD, but not only them, their ancestors going back to the sixth generation including all the litter brothers and sisters were also free. Then we could talk about a clean line, unfortunately this will never happen then not every puppy buyer has their dog X-rayed and then you will never know the percentage of HD in your litters and some breeders do not want to know this.
Bingo! Excellent description, Stewart. When you're talking about a polygenic mode of inheritance (more than one/a collection of genes cummulatively contribute to the disorder), you want to look at the breadth of the pedigree - i.e. the siblings (and also what they produced). And, as Stewart said, rarely are entire litters x-rayed so some of that information is frequently simply unknown. I personnally do not know of any signs that will point to HD unless the dog has a serious case of HD, however I would advise you to have the dog X-rayed at about 15 - 18 months to be 100% certain of the state of their hips. One note: 15-18 mos may be indictative, but it is too young to be 100 % certain the dog is clear of CHD, except probably for severe and maybe moderate cases. There's at least one long time American breeder who feels 3 years old is more indicative - that's just her personal experience, evidently, certainly not anything that is required by any breed club. I do happen to know of one dog who prelimmed fine at 22 mos and came back mildly unilaterally dysplastic at 3 1/2 years old when they finally got around to getting his OFA, so though I doubt upping the minimum screening age to 36 mos will ever become reality, perhaps she's on to something. Stewart - out of curiousity, what's the reasoning behind the acceptance at a club level of the practice of using a mild or borderline bitch? That is usually reserved for breeds with high rates of CHD and, often, a small gene pool. Do you know if that is the case with any other European OES clubs? Thanks! Kristine |
| So do we think it's important to do hips again after 3 years of age to verify status? Or would it just be an interesting bit of data to have? |
Mad Dog wrote: Stewart - out of curiousity, what's the reasoning behind the acceptance at a club level of the practice of using a mild or borderline bitch? That is usually reserved for breeds with high rates of CHD and, often, a small gene pool. Do you know if that is the case with any other European OES clubs? Thanks! Kristine Hi Kristine - I think ou already know the answer to the question you asked, I cannot say for sure as I do not think we have a small gene pool in Europe, but we are certainly going in that direction, here we have a few top breeders and when one of their dogs starts to win everybody starts using that dog as a Sire, the smaller kennels have no chance and that is a shame for the breeders who are doing their best and producing some nice dogs. I am sure that a lot of the breeders who go to use the winning dogs as a Sire do not do any homework on the lines or the dogs involved in those lines. I used a Sire for my bitch end of last year and fortunately it did not work out she was not pregnant, although I done my homework I found a line in both pedigree's where PRA is present, this would have meant me doubling up, what made me angry is the breeder from my bitch must know about this but she stayed quiet about it, result trust no one. The dog I rescued is turning out nice and if his HD results are as we were told then I will have a Sire on Site, although I am also looking for a nice Sire maybe you coud advise. Stewart |
| Hi,
Thanks for all the valuable info MadDog! You've helped many people on this forum become more knowlegable about HD. Grudge - good question too. I'll try to answer your question regarding is there anything we can do to help a dog that may develope HD in the future. I have three dogs, Ole Blue, Merlin and Panda. Ole Blue is an ancient 19 year old BlueHeeler/Lab. He still races around in his funny gait like way due to advancing arthritis, but overall regarding his age, he's doing pretty good. Panda is approaching his 8th birthday, was a rescue and was diagnosed with moderate hip dyslasia in both hips. He was originally a puppy mill dog who I've had since age 3. Merlin is from a reputable breeder and good lineage appears to not have any problems. Standing side by side you can see many differences in Panda and Merlin regarding coat, and overall health. All the dogs get Glucosamine which goes back to your original question - it's a natural product that is available in most food or health stores and for both humans, and dogs. Blue is on Medacam (this happened last year) It has a tendency to be hard on the liver and only available with perscription. Vets do full blood panel on animal before persciption is given. Fish oils and fish help with lubrication of the joints. I've also heard some good results with green muscles (available at food stores) helps with arthritis or anything related to muscle/joint pain. I occasionally give organ meats every couple weeks..liver. All my dogs get fresh veggies daily on top of their high quality food. They love carrots, celery and apples (seeds removed). Overall, I've had good success in maintaining healthy pets as my last cats lived to ages 19-21, and my last dogs to 15 1/2 -17 , even tho they were all large breed. Currently Blue is 19, Panda 8 and Merlin 5. Swimming is also good excercise and especially helps those with joint/muscle pain. Keeping dogs that have HD on the leaner side as added weight is hard on them. With Panda at the offleash park - while I don't want to spoil his fun I also am aware when he's overdoing it and will leave. I know he suffers from muscle aches if he's run too hard and the bunny hop appears. However, excercise is important as my vet tells me so it's not avoided but not overdone either. Good luck with your boy! This post also makes people aware of the difference between good breeding and those others. While not all things can be avoided the reputable breeders do everything they can to avoid it in their lineage. Marianne |
Maxmm wrote: So do we think it's important to do hips again after 3 years of age to verify status? Or would it just be an interesting bit of data to have?
It would be interesting, but with all the health testing we (are supposed to) do with these dogs, where would you draw the line? If you have a bitch who is OFA excellent at say 2 1/2, would you expect her to be dysplastic at 5? Realistically, no. Could she have some normal wear and tear on her hips (and the rest of her) by age 12? Probably so. You're probably breeding her somewhere between the age of 2-5 (most typically), so you have to base your decisions on what you know then. Beyond that, it's probably more important to look at what she has produced, and with whom. Or at least that's my thinking. Who knows? Polygenic traits are such a pain in the patoot!!! OESCA takes a different approach to recommendations for controlling hypothyroidism, which we are supposed to recheck (ideally) annually till they are five and every two years there after. I think I've written before that Belle's grandmother was hypothyroid. Not when she was bred, but it turned up later. What do you do with that information? You can't take the breeding back, so you test her kids, and her grand kids. Belle and her sister are still coming back mid-range normal. Their kids are (so far) all normal. Testing on the great-grand kids starts this spring. You know it's back there and some day it can and probably will, given the frequency in the breed as a whole, strike again. Did I mention polygenic traits are a pain...? Yeah, exactly. 
Kristine |
dairymaid wrote: The dog I rescued is turning out nice and if his HD results are as we were told then I will have a Sire on Site, although I am also looking for a nice Sire maybe you coud advise. Stewart[/color]
Haha, you and me both. And we both know there is no magic bullet sire who is right for all bitches, which makes it a little extraordinary that we keep seeing these waves of "popular sire" syndrome, but when you think about it, it probably does make sense. Dog is either heavily promoted and/or produces something nice with some bitch. Get start winning, people start paying attention, more people start using him. If the sire is pre-potent and/or lucky in the terms of which bitches are brought to him, you start seeing nice get from a number of bitches. The pressure is on. And so it goes. Some times I do think it can be less about the quality of the sire and more about the promotional skills that go into the dog, but that's also part of the game. I presume long time breeders who know what they are doing can see beyond that. BUT the bottom line is breeders are more apt to keep bitches to begin with since they are the backbone of a breeding program. Relatively few have the resources (time as well as money) or even inclination to special a dog. How many nice dogs are finished and placed in nice pet homes or are just comfortably resting on their breeder's couch? Hard to say. When you start looking (know you know what I'm talking about) for the right dog to breed your bitch to, the situation has already self-selected towards a relatively small number of males. If they are not what you are looking for or their pedigrees suggest it could be a bad combination with your bitch, what do you do? Start mugging fellow breeders to see what may be hanging out on their sofas that could be more appropriate?
Beats me. As for the disclosure issue. The sun is shining, it's warm out, the dogs are all tired out from running and playing, so napping, and I'm in the middle of spring cleaning mania and will reserve any further comment on that so as to not ruin an otherwise picture perfect day.
Kristine |
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