Need a trainer
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| Welcome to the forum.
How old are Daphne and Niles? |
| They turn 1 year old tomorrow. They are litter mates and have a great disposition. Everyone who is around them adores them. |
Oh everybody who likes dogs loves sheepdogs! 
Especially when they are bouncing up and down, and wiggling their butts and jumping. OK, maybe not so much with the jumping. 
While an outside trainer may be able to work miracles, as you can probably tell it isn't going to be easy to make these dogs into genteel lapdogs, it's just not in most of their dispositions. Still it might help. There are several pro trainers who are members here, let's give them time to find your post. Happy Birthday Niles and Daphne! |
| Actually Daphne THINKS she is a lap dog. They are very sweet after they calm down. One HUGE problem is the jumping. When they run to you (both at the same time) they greet with jumping. We have tried commands, treats, turning our backs....etc...etc....etc. Nothing works. So everytime we introduce them to a guest the guest is literally plowed over. Our in home training we have done well with sit, not so well with sit/ stay. They do come when called but again get ready to be sacked. They go on daily walks and practically drag whoever is on the end of the leash. They have 4 acres to roam on and full use of a very large home. Probably a little too much unsupervised time. They are also crate trained and housebroken. Our principals really miss not being able to take them with them, so its my goal to find a trainer which will allow Daphne and Niles the opprtunity to go with Mr&Mrs. The owners have their own airplane so as you can see it is very important for them to be well behaved in that environment. The home in CO sits on a ski in ski out trail so again its a liability to have the dogs there as they would most likely chase a skier down the hill. I welcome the opportunity to visit with any professional trainers, especially one that is breed specific |
I am probably the worse person to respond to this; BUT......the "principles " that love their dogs and want to travel with them need to dedicate the time & effort to socialize them to their life style. That means THEY need to socialize THEIR dogs that THEY have COMMITTED to, to adapt to THEM to THEIR life syle. You just don't purchase something cute and fluffy, and send it off to someone else to train, then expect them to return a fully trained dog that will respond to you  |
| Thank you for your help and I respect your opinion. However I did turn to this site for advice and not torment. This is not a typical situation and I am simply trying to accomodate what my employers have requested. |
| I did not mean to inflict torment. You simply can not send a dog off to boarding school and expect them to respond to you. Animals form bonds to their humans. I'm afraid that they are expecting more than can be deliveried by the trainers. If your employer's truely want this to work, they must put effort into the training and bonding process.
This breed typically does not " mature " until they are 2-3 years of age. They are energetic, they require alot of time and training from those that will be responsible for them. If your principals want them to be social in their enviroment, they must participate in their training. These dogs are late bloomers......They are wonderful, beautiful pets, BUT they can be a handfull. Your employers need to understand they must play a part in the dogs training if it is to be sucessful..............Kathy |
ngtrail wrote: Thank you for your help and I respect your opinion. However I did turn to this site for advice and not torment. This is not a typical situation and I am simply trying to accomodate what my employers have requested.
It may not be typical but one of my puppies went to a similar situation. Huge house, huge estate, spoiled rotten by doting (wonderful) owners and staff - sleeps in their bedroom with them BUT an OES performance friend of mine trains the dog for them, most of the time at their house. She knew them before they got my puppy: they brought her in initially to train their older sheepdog who had this somewhat peculiar outlook on life which included trying to chomp on people. Some time after she tamed him, they decided they wanted another, just more emphasis on good temperament this time, my friend knew I had a litter, yada yada. As part of the arrangement, she was to train the dog. Here is the problem: the dog behaves beautifully for her. But after a few days of complete lack of consistency and much overindulging, the little princess reverts to her party girl lifestyle. For a while my friend would have to drive down to call the dog into the house every couple of weeks, because she wouldn't come in for anybody else...  She's since focused less on training the dog and more on training the people... 
I don't know that you really need a trainer who is familar with OES (though breed familiarity is always an added bonus) so much as one who has experience with large, slow maturing dogs. Some understanding of herding breeds is helpful. Avoid anyone who mutters anything about the breed being stupid or stubborn - I mean, we joke about them being stubborn, but the truth is they're too smart for their own good and are very much a "tell me why I should do this?". And if they don't like your answer, they're not going to do it. Explain it nicely (!), clearly and consistently and they will. But it will still come down to no matter how good the trainer is, and someone could no doubt teach them a lot, their owners and everyone who lives with them is still going to have to get with the program and do as the trainer tells them in order for it to work in the long run. Kristine |
| I agree they are far from being " slow ", they are extremely intellegent, animals. Chauncey will respond to me....I've been the primary trainer. My husband is his best buddy, friend. When he is naughty Bob calls for me. Chaunce still loves me, cuddles with me, but will obey me. I love him more than life itself, but I understand that he must obey for his safety and our sanity.
The primary caregiver's must be the ones to be involved in the training. This is a process that can not be bought. Living beingings can not be bought as adornments without commentment. As an employee you can certainly participate in the dogs behavior, but they must respond to your employers as well. If not this relationship will not work. I wish you all the best.......Kathy |
| I'm not positive that outside training won't work. It certainly works for assistance dogs of all sorts. I'm just curious about our breed and jumping, which can be a toughie. |
Chauncey wrote: I agree they are far from being " slow ", they are extremely intellegent, animals. Chauncey will respond to me....I've been the primary trainer. My husband is his best buddy, friend. When he is naughty Bob calls for me. Chaunce still loves me, cuddles with me, but will obey me. I love him more than life itself, but I understand that he must obey for his safety and our sanity.
The primary caregiver's must be the ones to be involved in the training. This is a process that can not be bought. Living beingings can not be bought as adornments without commentment. As an employee you can certainly participate in the dogs behavior, but they must respond to your employers as well. If not this relationship will not work. I wish you all the best.......Kathy a well trained dog should respond to everyine in the environment. My husband does nothing with my dogs training but they listen to him - wehen he uses the right commands. so to they also listen to other instructors in new environments (mostly). I think although we may not think it is optimal good training may very wellbe able to be bought - unfortunatley I don't have that kind of bank roll  |
| The owners and all of the employees are more than willing to be involved. Unfortunately we all cannot devote the hours needed for the pups to be where our owners would like them to be. I am just trying to seek as much information about the breed and the best way to go about training. My two dogs are a lab and a karin terrier. So my technique with them although similar has not been successful with the OES. My lab I can completely direct off leash, terrier not so much. Daphne and Niles are so large that both of them greeting (ie knocking whomever down) needs to be addressed. We have small children in the household and truly want our guests not to be scared of them. They have wonderful personalities and have learned so far very well. If the best way for them to learn is at home so be it, if it with a trainer then all is well. That is why I came to this forum for advice and to seek a trainer. |
| The experience with your lab (I guess I'm assuming field lines) puts you part way there - slow maturing, very physical and large
Part of it they'll grow out of, just not fast enough I have a rescue foster who insists on jumping up on me. She's learning to sit (incompatible behavior) and THEN she'll get petted. It took her 3 seconds to learn how to sit, 3 more seconds to learn that she gets what she wants when she sits, and then as soon as I praise her, she gets so happy and excited she tries to jump up on me again.
It's not hardwired per se, but in jumper-uppers it is so self-rewarding (it's also very puppy like - you see them do this with their dam, they want to nuzzle her muzzle. Guess that explains the big slobbery kisses she plants on me ) that it's almost irresisistible. So you figure out what it is they ultimately want (it's not the jumping itself that's the thrill) and you show them how to get it without jumping. That approach to behavioral modification tends to work really well with these guys. Telling them they can't have something that they really, really want is much harder for them to reconcile with. So you compromise and come up with an acceptable alternative.
The foster dog I referred to is 15 mos old. She's a tough one. She must have been doing this for quite some time before she ever came to me. It's worked for her. So it's harder to convince (remind) her that there's a better way... One thing that helps on many levels is getting them out and about everywhere (outside of the house and grounds - increasingly exciting places where you ask for increasing amounts of self control, but then also reward them by letting them meet new people, nicely. And so on. Once they're past the novelty stage they tend not to get quite so excited about every little new thing in their household. Up to a point. Oh, and they'll need to be worked separately since together they'll just feed off each other and you'll begin to think alcoholism sounds like a fine and dandy hobby... But, yes, I do know what you mean. Every time my puppy's owners (she's almost 2 now...  ) have a major social event at their home - they throw occasional huge parties, a recent funeral - my friend is there as dog minder. That way the dogs can be part of the events yet the owners don't have to worry about them bowling people over or slobbering one of the guests into a coma. The first time she told me my response was" you're kidding me, right?" But as she put it: "the alternative is they shut the dogs in a room somewhere till everyone's gone and that's not what they want. They want them to be included, but they can't host an event like that and manage their dogs at the same time".
OK, so it's not what most of us are used to, but it works for them. Young children add an additional challenge. OES can be great with children, but they have to learn to respect them as short human beings and not think of them as sheepdog bowling pins
Kristine |
| Kristine, just have to pop in here and tell ya I do like to read your post, they are all so informative and always have something to make one smile . Thank you |
Ron wrote: I'm not positive that outside training won't work. It certainly works for assistance dogs of all sorts.
This is true. Assistance dogs are all trained very specifically and then matched to thier handlers. There are a couple of differences that might apply here, though. In the cases of an assistant dog, the ones I know are matched with their new partners and both are worked together for weeks. A comparable would be for all the family members to spend a concerted effort to learn how to communicate with the dogs once they have been trained. Ideally this would be one-on-one for whatever length of time it takes for the family members to each learn what cues the dog will respond to. There is also that the assistant dogs are trained over months, in different environements. They learn how to do whatever in all kinds of situations..Out in the street, in the home, in someone else's home, in an airplance etc. A dog sent of to "training camp" who is not taken off-site and trained in different scenerios, will not be the same in the familes home. It would be preferable for a trainer to come to the house, and have the dogs trained in thier own environment. Dogs do not generalize well, so they may learn not to jump on people at the training camp, but have to be re-taught not to jump in the home. But above all of this, I would never send my dogs somewhere else, out of my sight, where I have no idea what kind of treatment they are getting. A dog could get traumatized by something, and then back home you would never know what the problem was. So for this situation I would suggest a trainer coming to the house to train the dogs...IF the family members could not do it themselves....Then the trainer would have to teach the family what the cues are that the dog has learned. |
| I agree that a well trained dog should mind everybody in the environment--but they don't always if they know that not everybody is serious about them behaving themselves.
Case in point: my husband and I both took Sophie and Sherman to puppy classes. We had each been to classes with Merlin and Archie, so we knew what to expect. As it happened, during the puppy training period with Sherman and Sophie, I was having trouble with migraines and puppies with their barks in a large, echoing room wth lots of hard surfaces was just too big a trigger for me to make all of the sessions. Hubby went to more of them than I did, although I worked with the pups at home. Hubby's schedule allows him much more time at home than I have. He walks the dogs much more often, and is usually the one who feeds them. I do virtually all of the grooming. The dogs all listen to me much more than they do him. Why? Because they know I mean it and they know he's a push over. HOnestly, I thought it was just me and my vanity but when out of town kids come to visit, they have all remarked that the dogs are much more settled when I'm home than if my husband is the one in charge. |
Quote: Young children add an additional challenge. OES can be great with children, but they have to learn to respect them as short human beings and not think of them as sheepdog bowling pins
SO that is what Morgan sees when the kids next door are out! I always wondered |
| Ok, here's my 2 cents. Let your fingers do the walking. Check the yellow pages. Mine has a lot of trainers that will come to your house. I don't know of anyplace that will take dogs, train them, and send them back home.
The thing you and your employer need to realize is that what you have is two really big puppies. There have been quite a few people that have said this is a breed that is slow to mature and that is soooo true. Stubborn? Oh yeah! Consistancy is the key here. Give them a reason to do what you want, ie treats work great here. Mine have to sit if they want a treat, or if I want mine to down a treat is mandatory. In a few years, your employer may be able to take them to different places and have well behaved dogs if the training is right. Thats the yellow pages! There is no magic pill. I'm not saying this to be mean..its just the facts. These are young dogs and patience is the key. |
| At what age is it good to start pottie and general obedience training? |
| Hi, potty training should begin immediately. You should not start obedience or taking the puppy out socially until after his immunizations are complete. |
Chauncey wrote: Hi, potty training should begin immediately. You should not start obedience or taking the puppy out socially until after his immunizations are complete.
You can and should start obedience training immediately too (age appropriate). Frankly, you can start obedience training before they even leave mom. You just don't take them to any classes, obviously. But why wait till you get them into class to start training them and waste all that wonderful baby puppy curiousity and compliance? (don't get used to the latter - it's shortlived and you may not see it again until they turn five... )
Just a clarification: there is no hard and fast rule as to whether or not you wait until they are fully immunized before you take them out for socialization and so on. Most people weigh the risk of exposure against the risk of ending up with an undersocialized dog. It's a tough question, but one you can discuss with your vet, including how to minimize risk. Kristine |
| Our trainer believes you have 14 weeks to teach basice which are things that stay with the dog for life - after that while they still learn it is not as inbedded. She also says 12 weeks for socialization after that its catch up. We got puppy at 13 weeks he went to a class the next night. he is 14 weeks today and I guess from now on we play catch up. I also started one of my sheepies in private lessons at 9 weeks and the other in group lessons at 10 weeks. guess which one i can take anywhere any time.
I don't know any vets who still say no classes until all shots are finished. I assumed that is because the innoculations are more durable than previouslly believed. |
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