HELP WITH A TRAINERS TECHNIQUES
I was told a trainer is using this method at a training class.Of course the sheepie puppy loved it and wanted to eat the lime.The trainer also told the owner to go and buy a pinch collar for a sheepie younger than 6mos.old.Last but not least trainer told owner it will take longer to train a large breed dog,due to maturity. This seems cruel to me.THOUGHTS PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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| I have no thoughts about the lime - other than aversion never worked for me. A properly applied prong collar isn't cruel. |
| Sounds like the trainer is using some old-fashioned methods/ideas that they were told by someone who told them..etc..etc..I heard of all those things back in the day, but come on...we have to move on ....
These are aversives and often the dog has no idea what is happening and why. Very sad indeed what some people who call themselves dog-trainers advise people to do to their dogs... 
As for large breeds taking longer to train due to maturity????? What? Sounds like someone who needs to do some "real" research. |
I agree with Bosley's mom. These guys are late bloomers and are bred to herd and protect, which are dominance traits. When Chauncey was younger I tried many diversion techniques, the only one I found effective and not punitive was a squirt bottle or water gun with plain water to distract him from harmful things ie: cars on walks, trying to hop on a moving ladder ( fire ) truck...he loves firetrucks, and well they were on their way back to the station and driving slowly    ....etc.
Chauncey was a difficult puppy, he didn't become a snuggle beast until he was at least 50 lbs. , but was always adorable. He was very oral and to this day he loves to gently gnaw on the knuckle of my index finger when we are cuddling. It's really soothing. Then all of a sudden, the light came on and he became this absolutely wonderful, adorable, snugglebunny at about 2 years old. At 2 1/2 he has really mellowed out and has some common sense and is easily trainable. Latest tricks are licking & smacking our lips.....Bob thinks I need another hobby. I agree...a female OES, named Flogging Molly  Okay we'll just call her Molly. It's going to take me a while to talk him into this.  |
| Ok thank you guys for the quick responses.I guess I am one of those uneducated people when it comes to the prong collar.
I did not know it really doesn't hurt them if it is fitted correctly. So you see I knew if I came here for answers I would get the right one. Thank you Ron,and everyone else who responded. I feel better,alot better.This was suggested for one of my babies. I still do not like the idea of squirting lime juice in his mouth,in front of others at the class. The trainer has 25 years experience,maybe it is old school.Wouldn't you think though since he liked it,this will not work for him.Poor baby is only 4 months old.Sounds like he thought it was a game of some sort,and wanted to eat the whole lime.Yikes! Went for another class this evening and this time I am told,he was a better student.WooHoo!!!!!!!!!!!! |
gumbo41 wrote: Ok thank you guys for the quick responses.I guess I am one of those uneducated people when it comes to the prong collar.
I did not know it really doesn't hurt them if it is fitted correctly. I did not specifically respond with regards to the prong collor. I don't use one and never will. If they did not hurt they would not do anything other than a flat collar, so why bother wasting your $40 some dollars? They hurt and they are an aversive. Not recommended for use by Humane Societies or the Association of Pet Dog Trainers. |
| They absolutely do NOT hurt. I have put them on my own very tender neck and demonstrated this many times by yanking on it. They are just slightly uncomfortable.
They stop my dog from pulling, and without it Joan would be unable to walk him. We think the "wrap around the snout" leaders are more irritating to the dog (I've seen one dog whose fur had been rubbed off!) and annoying to the dog and much less secure. |
| I agree with Ron--
Heart would pull so much, she would choke herself whether she was on a buckle or choke...and the choke would get caught up in her dense hair and would keep "choking" her. The prong, since it doesn't slid around just grabs her and alerts her to "take it slow"...She walks so nice now and I am able to take her on more frequent walks since she is not pulling my arm out of the socket. (I tried a haltie before the prong and she was so obsessed with trying to get it off she wouldn't move) so the prong is my answer as a "training' tool...in a couple of months after she has a solid heel, we will go back to the choke or the buckle. |
| I just want to add that collars are for CONTROL. If your dog isn't trained well enough to be offleash 100% of the time, then the collar you use MUST allow you to be able to control your dog, otherwise you are putting your dog and perhaps yourself in danger. |
| If it didn't hurt the dog would not respond, so it wouldn't
work. They are metal things sticking into a dog's neck. If they were soft, fluffy things instead, then the dog wouldn't care. It is because it hurts that the dog pays attention. Maybe not a lot, but it hurts. If it didnt hurt the dog would not pay any attention to it. |
| I didn't say it was like a cotton ball, just that it doesn't hurt.
I'm telling you, I put them on my own neck and yank. They do NOT hurt. It's like lying down on a bed of sharp nails (The collar prongs are very rounded) -- there are enough prongs so that the pressure is distributed and you feel them, but they do not hurt. In addition, the collar does not tighten more than a little bit, so it is much more humane and safe than a choke chain. Try one on for yourself.
Additionally, once trained by the collar, whenever the collar is on the dog just never pulls. It may be a similar effect to putting on a harness and saying "OK, it's time to go to work now," but once it's on there is no pulling at all. No pulling equals no tight collar anyway. So what is more humane to both the dog and Joan's arm? |
| One more thing that I have noticed......
If I do something dumb...like step on Heart's paw by accident, she will avoid me for a while..(even though....She was underfoot and it really wasn't my fault.And I tell her how sorry I am...poor baby....) When I have to leave-- at times-- she will run to the other room cuz she knows she will be going in her crate.... Now, when she sees the prong collar come out..she runs toward me...she sits very still while I attach it....I don't believe she would do that if the collar "hurt" her..... Again...it grabs and puts pressure on the neck to remind them to go slow...Put a choke on your arm and do a quick jerk...it hurts!!!! A prong is more pressure than "pinch" especially with all the hair an OES has..they have sooo much extra padding between their skin and the prong.... |
Bosley's mom wrote: gumbo41 wrote: Ok thank you guys for the quick responses.I guess I am one of those uneducated people when it comes to the prong collar. I did not know it really doesn't hurt them if it is fitted correctly. I did not specifically respond with regards to the prong collor. I don't use one and never will. If they did not hurt they would not do anything other than a flat collar, so why bother wasting your $40 some dollars? They hurt and they are an aversive. Not recommended for use by Humane Societies or the Association of Pet Dog Trainers. Not to argue but I have been told that trainers are rethinking the prong collar and are expected to be changing their recommendations. A prong collar properly used is less dangerous and painful than a head collar - just what I have been told. Also I think your basic assumption that if the collar didn't"hurt" it wouldn't do anything. there is a fdifference between pain and discomfort. Lets not go overboard. SOrry if this has been covered above I jumped in when I read this. |
| Opinions of prong collars aside, let's get back to the initial questions.
gumbo41 wrote: Has anyone ever heard of a trainer squirting lime juice into a dog's mouth to stop it from barking,jumping up or for whatever problem the owner wants corrected. I was told a trainer is using this method at a training class.Of course the sheepie puppy loved it and wanted to eat the lime. Personally, in my limited time as a dog owner and hobby reader, I have only ever heard of using a spray to interrupt undesired behaviour and redirect it to a desirable behaviour (eg. spraying a dog while he's barking unnecessarily and as soon as he stops call him over to do something else), and in the form of a citronella collar (also for barking). The thing is, the dog needs to learn what he IS supposed to do. The spray says, "don't do that", but that alone isn't enough. Now he just knows that something bad will happen when he, eg. barks, but doesn't know what he's supposed to do instead. Imagine how confusing that must be! gumbo41 wrote: The trainer also told the owner to go and buy a pinch collar for a sheepie younger than 6mos.old. As you can see, there are a myriad of opinions on this issue. Personally, I think Ron is wise to have tried it himself, and in my opinion, I think that anyone should do the same before trying it on their dog. That way they know exactly what it feels like, so that part of the debate would be a non-issue. gumbo41 wrote: Last but not least trainer told owner it will take longer to train a large breed dog,due to maturity.
This seems cruel to me.THOUGHTS PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tucker is only one year old, but in my experience I haven't found him particularly difficult to train. In fact, there are 4 other dogs in our obedience class (Level 1): a husky, a poodle/something small and white mix, a cairn terrier, and a long-haired dachsund. Tucker is the biggest in the class and is far more advanced than any of them. He knows sit, down, stand, shake paw, wave, bow, jump, wait, and stay (a bit rusty). I'm sure he will be a bit more focused in groups in the future, but I wouldn't say that has impacted his training at all so far. That said, the trainers opinion on that particular issue is neither here nor there, really, as long as he expects the same from the OES as all the rest of the dogs. |
| I considered getting a prong collar at one point because while I haven't yet had any trouble controlling Basil on a walk, my girlfriend was having issues with him tugging. The place I get most of my supplies at recommended a type of harness that has the leash connection at the front, on his chest as a more humane option.
This device has been very successful for me-- if he ever pulls enough for it to be a problem it re-directs the force of his tug turning him toward the handler which seems to be a pretty good reminder to him of who is in charge. I'm not entirely sure where I sit on this training issue and am by no means an expert, but so far I have used only gentle and reward based training. When I find something that attracts his attention more than me (one of our cats running, another dog he wants to play with), I try to bring him back with something he likes and ask him to do something for it. It's taken a while but he shows steady, albeit sometimes frustratingly slow, improvement. I'm a bit of a softie though and would rather think that he chooses to mind, rather than responds by rote because of consequence conditioning. |
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