Who to contact for genetic testing?
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| I'm sure others will have advice but start with your breeder. Does she/he show in conformation? Have the sire/dam had the appropriate testing done and what were the results? Kristine is a genius at all this stuff and is always willing to answer questions so maybe she'll chime in as well. |
bestdogsx4 wrote: I'm sure others will have advice but start with your breeder. Does she/he show in conformation? Have the sire/dam had the appropriate testing done and what were the results? Kristine is a genius at all this stuff and is always willing to answer questions so maybe she'll chime in as well.
Kristine doesn't know a darn thing more than any other breeder on this forum, I'm just more of a loudmouth about it  Besides, you already zeroed in on the most important aspect: the dog's background.
Since I don't know gender (did you buy a bitch?) age (is it a puppy) or what country you're in, I'll be making some assumptions. Pipe in to clarify as needed. Since this is your first OES, you need to know two things to start with: (1) what health problems do we tend to see in this breed (see www.oeshealth.org ) (2) what health problems are KNOWN risks in your dog's pedigree? For answers to the second part, you have to talk to the breeder. Some things you should already know: (1) do the parents have their hip clearances? Elbows would also be nice, but not too many breeders routinely check for this. (2) were the parents' eyes checked? (3) was the parents' hearing checked? (4) were the parents' checked for hypothyroidism (common in the breed) (5) were their hearts checked by a cardiologist? Do your puppies parents have any evidence of, or have they produced: 1) any allergies, hypothyroidism or other immune mediated issues? (immune mediated hemolyic anemia or thrombocyopenia? lupus? addisons? immune mediated polyarthritis, myasthenia gravis? see http://www.canismajor.com/dog/autoimmn.html for a run down of various immune mediated disorders since OES as a breed are predisposed to many of them 2)Hip dyslasia? (another biggie in the breed) 3) deafness (unfortunately breed has predisposition towards deafness, too, so you have to be careful) 4) any eye or sight problems? 5) heart problems? 6) idiopathic epilepsy? 7) cancers (young to middle aged - especially osteosarcoma and lymphoma?)  liver shunts?
9) cerebellar abiotrophy (CA) - (see www.OESCAhealthregistry.org for an explanation of what this is, a list of known affected dogs and obligate carriers, and how to submit pedigrees for carrier risk analysis on a proposed mating before breeding a dog) [guys - feel free to expand upon this list, please] Ask the same questions above in regards to the grandparents. The siblings of the parents? The grandparents siblings? And so on. What has this breeder seen of health problems. Since no dog is perfect - they all carry some detrimental genes - if the breeder has been breeding for any length of time, has been doing the necessary testing, asking the right questions of the stud dog owners (who are hopefully honest in return and themselvs do the testing) and following up on his or her puppies that s/he sold, the breeder will have seen some health issues, even if they are minor ones. Some times major ones. We all do. That's part of breeding unfortunately. Our job as breeders is, in part, to minimize the chance of producing unhealthy dogs to the best of our ability. The issue is not that if any of the things I listed have been seen in the pedigree, you cannot breed your dog. The issues is where were they seen, how serious were they and how well does your dogs' breeder know his of her pedigree? That's important. Because you can test your dog and the dog may pass with flying colors on all counts, but you still need to have some idea of what genes are lurking back there and the relative risl of your dog being a carrier of any of these problems to know how to pick the right stud dog for her *(assuming you have a bitch) to minimize the risk of producing affected dogs. Otherwise, though health screening of your own dog is an important first step, you're still just breeding more or less blind. Conclusion: you really need her <?> breeder's help. More to follow in a moment. Kristine |
| OK, health testing.
There is information on the CHIC (Canine Health Information Center) that spells out what testing is available for OES and what is recommended be done: http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD In essence 1) hips and elbows - after the age of 24 months 2) eyes - within months of breeding, and ideally at least semi-annually thereafter as some hereditary eye problems don't show up until the dog is older, unfortunately. 3) thyroid - within months of breeding, but not too close to her being in season - needs to be repeated, for life of dog (see below for recommendations). 4) hearing - can test at very young age (as a puppy) and - the good news for a change - only need to test once
5) cardiac - within months of breeding They are still saying hearing (BAER - see below) and cardic testing is optional (for dog to be included in the CHIC registry) though I expect that to change. Hips, eyes and thyroid at a bare miniumum. I think the Old English Sheepdog Club of America's (OESCA - www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org) Code of Ethics only requires hips (OFA or PennHip in the US) and eyes (CERF - see below) but strongly recommends BAER testing. You can check for yourself and should read it anyway since it spells out what is at a bare minimum expected from a reputable breeder in terms of health testing as well as other conduct: http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... 202000.htm Hips and elbows - to be submitted to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) for evaluation and inclusion in their database - see www.offa.org - in fact, go to their advanced search and do a search on OES to see what their site looks like. If your dogs' parents were OFA'd. you can glean valuable information about any of their siblings who were OFA'd, their parents, and so on (I'm presuming you are in the US. If not, let us know - there are breeders from around the world on the forum who can pipe in.) To test for hips and elbows: Easiest way is to talk to your own vet (or get a recommendation from him/her if s/he doesn't do a lot of OFA x-rays) and after your girl turns 2 years old, you have the vet take x-rays of her hips (and ideally elbows) and submit them Eyes - dogs eyes should be evaluated by a veterinary optomalogist and the results sent in to the Canine Eye Health Registry Foundation (CERF - www.vmdb.org/cerf.html ) To find the closest canine eye doc, ask your vet, or if s/he doesn't know (unlikely) ask breeders in the area where they go. Thyroid - your regular vet can draw the blood and send it in to an OFA approved lab - see http://www.offa.org/thygeninfo.html for general info and http://www.offa.org/thyproc.html They will start certifying at 12 months, but I don't bother starting to test mine until the turn two (few dogs will come back hypothyroid by age one), then it's recommended you test every year until the dog turns 5 years old, and every two years thereafter. Hearing - this can be tested at any time. Testing needs to be done by someone trained in the procedure (called BAER - brainstem auditory evoked response) See http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/baersite.htm for a list of testers and http://www.offa.org/deafgeninfo.html for general info on deafness including heritability and breed prevalences when known. Cardiac - oscultation (and echo if recommended) ideally to be performed by cardiologost - see http://www.offa.org/cardiacgeninfo.html - again ask your vet for a recommendation, or breeders in your area. There is an additional concern in OES that can be tested for - the MDR1 (multisensitivity drug) mutation. See http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/ I think that covers basic health testing. Anyone have anything else to add? Kristine |
| Breed Standard:
http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... andard.htm For a tutorial to explain some of the jargon  : http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... efault.htm
And even then you still need someone who's been doing this for a while and understands the standard to go over your dog and explain her strengths and weaknesses (again, no perfect dogs, they all have some, but some dogs are closer to the standard then others). Does your dog's breeder show? Do you plan to? Oh, and don't ask me about grooming. A big part of showing. I am not permitted to speak publically about grooming, nor go near my own dogs with scissors
Kristine |
| I am in Canada, schonner is a male, possibly getting a female in a few months, so I would be getting them both tested. I just don't know how to go about getting this all started, and I would like to go about it the right way. |
| Kristine's post might need to be a sticky. |
schooner wrote: I am in Canada, schonner is a male, possibly getting a female in a few months, so I would be getting them both tested. I just don't know how to go about getting this all started, and I would like to go about it the right way.
I don't mean this to come off sounding terrible, but if this is something that wasn't expressly discussed with the breeder of your dog, and you don't already have a breeding contract with the breeder, I'd be concerned that you don't have good breeding stock that is representative of the standard. The only way to know for sure is to show your dog and have it evaluated. Once it has its championship, then would be the time that you might being considering a breeding program. |
| Does your breeder know your intentions of wanting to start breeding dogs? I know all reputable breeders sell their pet pups on a non-breeding agreement. If someone approaches me about wanting to breed dogs, I have very strict policies that must be followed. At a bare minimum all dogs used for breeding should be Champions, and have both their hips certified by either OVC, OFA or PennHip and their eyes CERF certified. I always co-own these dogs to ensure that all of this is done. Also, I have say as to who the dog can be bred with. This is not because I am a control freak, rather because I have been breeding for many years and know different bloodlines, etc, and what health issues are in different pedigrees. Anyone who wants to breed for the right reasons would have no problem wanting to learn to do things the right way as I wanted to do when I started out. You also mention you plan on purchasing a female in the next couple of months, so I am assuming your plan is to breed your male and female together. I can tell you right now there is so much more to it than owning a male and female and breeding them together. All dogs have faults, and your goal should be to breed 2 dogs together to strengthen the weak points. How will you know as pups whether these dogs complement each others faults? Do you know and understand what an OES should look like in order to know what your dogs weak and strong points are?
If you purchased from a reputable breeder your breeder should be guiding you and educating you every step of the way. And remember, not every dog is worthy of breeding. |
| schooner, Amber and Kristine gave you some great advice, I sincerely hope you take it. I have one of Amber's puppies and know he is a product of years of diligent and careful breeding practices. Although I don't ever intend to breed any of my boys, if I was I would absolutely take any and all guidance I could get. |
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