Hm...so far, not impressed with my new trainer
The trainer is a very nice lady, but doesn't seem at all as knowledgeable as I assumed she would be, and the rules of the class are a little strange to me. Are these two things normal? 1. The dogs must stay about 3' away from each other at all times. She said, "If you were in the puppy classes you know there was a puppy play time at the beginning. Well now the play time is over". They aren't allowed to sniff each other or anything! I found it a little strange, and Tucker was really preoccupied the whole hour with trying to get to and sniff the other dogs. 2. She uses the word "yes" as the marker of a good behaviour. So if you say "sit" and the dogs sits, you say "yes!" and give him a treat. We are used to clicker training so I get that she is just using a word in place of a clicker, but my concern is that the word "yes"' is SO commonly used in regular conversation - won't that be confusing for the dogs? The great thing about clicking is that that "click" sound doesn't occur naturally at any other time. We worked on sit, down, stand, look (making eye contact), and touching the collar. It was all very basic, although I'll admit that we need to practice stand and look. I do like the fact that Tucker has to practice these things with distractions, so I didn't mind the basic start, as I've looked through the paperwork and things will get a bit more advanced as we go. She just kept referring to her notes, and we spent a long time doing each of these basic skills. When she was teaching down, she used Tucker as an example and he did it which I was very proud of. She was trying to show how to teach the command by luring him into it with a treat, bring it from his nose down his chest and out along the floor. He did the "down" but only because he already knew the command. I mentioned that we didn't teach him that way because he wasn't getting it, and another dog owner mentioned that his little dog wouldn't do it that way either. The trainer asked how I did it so I started explaining it. She had been standing between the man and I, and when I started talking to him she didn't move at all, completely standing in between us. She kept saying, "yes, yup, uh huh, yeah" as I was talking, like she was hurrying me along. I don't think she liked it at all that I had a suggestion for teaching something. The last thing that I found a little strange was this: at the end of the class she asked if anyone was having a particularly difficult time of something specific. I said that Tucker jumps up on people and we couldn't get him to stop. "Just turn your back"' she said, and I told her that that doesn't work because he'll just jump at your back. "Only praise him when he's feet are on the floor", I told her that he doesn't get the correlation, it seems, and that itsn't going well. "Step on the leash", I do that, I told her, but that actually doesn't stop him when he isn't wearing a leash. "Well, just try those things" she said and walked away. HUH? I learned all those technqiues both in my research and from this forum long ago. I expected a professional trainer to have some more suggestions!!!! Maybe my expectations were too high, or maybe she was just really nervous, but either way I wasn't overly impressed with her. I will continue with the classes in the hopes that they get a bit more, well, useful, plus I know Tucker had fun and it is great for him to work on things in a new place with distractions, so I know our time there isn't useless, I was just a bit underwhelmed by her!!! Am I over-reacting? Is this all normal for a first class???? Thanks for any thoughts (plus if you have more suggestions about the jumping up!) |
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| Funny. That sounds alot like Maggie's beginner obedience class except that our trainer was nicer. But in terms of skills and suggestions, it is right about the same level of competence. I was not hugely impressed either and figured it was mainly for people who did not have this fabulous forum and had not read any training books. |
| I let my beginner dogs meet and greet, and even play during breaks.
The only big rule I have about that is to let them meet with just 2 dogs at a time the first night - no big groups sniffing together. Then go from there and see how the dogs do. I feel the interaction and socialization (at any age and level of experience) is part of the benefit of coming to a class situation. I agree that the "yes" word is perhaps too common. But I do see why she is using it. The timing of a "click" or a word substitute is the key to training, so I imagine this is an easy word for lots of people. Perhaps not the best choice in the long run, but one that is easy to learn for the humans! Also - the "clicker" sound is virtually the same as a pop can opening.... I would talk to her before or after class about the home issues. She seems to have her class time all mapped out and feels rushed if you talk to her at any length during it. 
Also, not all instructors are comfortable with other methods to do an exercise. If it is safe, I let people do it. Or if they are having trouble with one way, try to suggest alternate methods to try. But, I do hear from students who have been to other classes that many other instructors have one way, and one way only! I feel they are all different dogs, different breeds and personalities. No one way works for all. 
Good luck.  I would stick with it and pull what you can from the class. It is still better than just training at home (I hope!). |
| I completely agree - thanks for the insight. The two dogs sniffing together is a great idea and very smart - that's all I'm asking for is a bit of sniffing! The whole point of us going was to get used to doing things with distractions, AND to be used to being around other dogs so that when he does seem them out in the street it isn't such a huge exciting ordeal. If the only thing he can think of is "I want to sniff that dog I want to sniff that dog I want to sniff that dog" then it seems a little counterproductive. I'm thinking that maybe I'll ask people if they want to meet in the parking lot 10 minutes before class each week and they can sniff and socialize there first.
"if they are having trouble with one way, try to suggest alternate methods to try" --> she didn't HAVE another idea! When I told her that we taught Tucker a different way, she said, "Oh really? What did you do?" If she didn't want me to share, she shouldn't have asked! Like I said, it isn't a total waste of time. Proofing Tucker's behaviours and getting him out in a setting where we can bond even more and just work on training for a whole hour each week makes the classes worth it. I just needed a place to vent! |
| Is there a reason she won't let you use a clicker in class? I know some sound sensitive dogs hate the sound.
I use 'yes' if I don't have a clicker handy and that has never been a problem. Using OK as a release word is a different issue - I put Sybil in a sit-stay while my agility instructor was explaining something a couple of weeks ago and she'd say something and I'd say OK, and Sybil would release and she'd praise the dog and give me "the look" - reserved for trainers who are too stupid to live 
About the down - was she trying to teach a sphinx down? I always teach my dogs this first (and foremost) - most competitive trainers do. It's more useful on several levels. Most (normal  ) people teach the dog to sit and then down and get easily frustrated if I try to teach them how to teach their dogs a sphinx down (which boggles my mind, since the sphinx is actually easier to me - but it's often what you're used to) - teaching something a different way is not the same as teaching something different -period (the exercise). Did she explain what she was trying to teach specifically, and why?
She does sound like she needs some serious work on her communication skills.... 
Is this a training club, a private school...? I love my training club but the quality of instruction varies so tremendously depending on who's teaching (you can be a great trainer and a lousy instructor and at training clubs you typically have well-meaning volunteers, some better teachers than others) that except for certain instructors whom I know are really good, I use it mostly for the distractions and do my own thing within limits. Kristine |
| When I don't have a clicker I use "yes" as a marker. I think that is pretty standard.
I did not allow dogs to sniff and greet before and during class, unless it was a puppy class. The reason is that the dog should wait until "allowed" to meet and greet. I took this as an excerise that I taught my students. One of the classes was focused on how to walk and be around other dogs. But the dogs need to learn that they can greet only when given permission....like "say hi" or whatever. Not all dogs like to be greeted, so in the real world I teach my students to only let their dogs greet when they have cleared it with the other dog's owner. Maybe this will be included at a later date. Many clubs/schools have a strict curiculam and specific training techiques that have to be used...So all the trainers are the same, in case one is sick and a replacement is needed etc.....She may have asked how you did it just to be polite....But canot change her ways, anyway, as it is not the way her school does it. I have found that many times students came in that knew more than I did....They would be bringing dogs in especially to get them used to working with distractions. I liked to spend time with them AFTER the class, to discuss things that worked well for them...You can always learn more. The spinx is requiored if you are going to do obedience. I always prefered the "relaxed down" on one hip, for pet training. I find that my dogs, anyway, are less inclined to pop back up if it invivled a bit more work... |
| About the "Ok" for a release word - been there, done that one too!!
After being burned on that one one too many times, I decided to retrain myself. A few dogs ago (my timeline - what dog I am training) I decided to make the switch to a new word. To make it simple, I went from "OK" to "all done". It has really helped.
My ongoing issue is to remember to use it when teaching class. I have my dog in the center or side of the ring, and give exercise finished to the class. If I forget to release my own dog too often, they start breaking on the "exercise finished" and come find me......oops!  |
| After puppy classes we were always told that the dogs had to learn to be around aother dogs without getting to interact, so I can see why she doesn't want them sniffing, besides not all dogs are comfortable while on leash having another dog come at them.
Other than that I agree your trainer may have some communication issues - but a one hour class does not leave much time for individual issues. |
| Thank you so much for everyone's replies. I have no problem with any of her techniques now that I know WHY she is likely doing them!! Just to say "keep the dogs apart" to me was a bit strange, but if she had completed the sentence with "they need to learn to be around each other without interacting unless you say so" I wouldn't have been so puzzled (thanks for that input, Bosley's Mom!)
It's really great to hear not only from people who have taken classes, but also those of you who teach them. Mad Dog: I'm assuming that a sphinx down is where he's in a literal sphinx-like position, arms out straight and back legs under him and slightly to the side, as opposed to resting on one hip with both legs to one side? She didn't say that's what she was going for, she just said "do this to teach them down". Yes, communication is a bit weak, but she could be very nervous. As I've said before, I'm a substitute teacher so I DEFINITELY know what it's like to be standing in front of a group of strangers. I'm going to keep positive and hope that the subsequent weeks will be better. Thanks again, everyone! You've made me feel a lot better!! |
| how to teach their dogs a sphinx down
OK, anybody have a picture of a "sphinx down". Kristine, you challenge me every day. |
DandAbi wrote: how to teach their dogs a sphinx down
OK, anybody have a picture of a "sphinx down". Kristine, you challenge me every day. I thought about it I could get a picture of the process, but knowing my camera, no dice. When they talk about a sphinx down, they're really referring to a folding down. I.e. the action starts in the front - from a stand - as opposed to the way most people teach a down, which starts from the rear - dog parks butt - into a sit - and then slides down. For the sphinx down, picture Abi doing a play bow. Now picture her frontlegs all the way to her elbow touching the floor, butt in the air. Then her rear legs fold down, meaning the butt sinks down and - voila - dog is down. At least this is the theory. Today in agility class we arrived a little early so I was practicing some basics with Sybil. Maybe she was convinced that the cute little Boston who was running the course might need her company at any moment, because she went down, but refused to park her elbows, and also refused to sink all the way down in the rear, which meant you had to look closely, but she was not technically in a down, rather, her belly was hoovering an inch or two off the ground and she was springloaded and ready to go. Nothing could convince her to relax into the down. Nutcase. The reason for the folding down is that it's cleaner and faster and the dog is usually in a better position to spring quickly into action, hence it's use in competitive obedience (think the drop on recall) and agility (the drop on the table). It is also used in herding, for instance, when the handler wants to stop the dog - well, a stop in herding can be any position and ironically some handlers use the command also to rate the dog - i.e. to make the dog slow down, which if I was a dog would confuse the heck out of me, but seems to work for them, so what do I know?
Kristine |
| who knew it had a technical name... i just thought it was the
"I dont really want to be in down position, so ill lay like this and jump up the second something more interesting comes along" down...  |
Darcy wrote: who knew it had a technical name... i just thought it was the
"I dont really want to be in down position, so ill lay like this and jump up the second something more interesting comes along" down...
That's why, I think it was Nicole, in essence pointed out that it is not the down of choice for a long (more permanent) down, competitive or not. You can actually teach them to go down that way no matter what the situation and contextually have them understand that "in such and such a case" I'll be requested to stay here for five minutes or whatever and they will roll over on one hip and relax as if they had been asked to do the butt-parking down. Or at least that's the theory. Your milage with Panda and mine with Sybil may vary, but my other dogs seems to get it |
| so if you teach them to "bow" on command - not difficult in my limited experience - can you start with that and then teach the down? |
kerry wrote: so if you teach them to "bow" on command - not difficult in my limited experience - can you start with that and then teach the down?
You could. In fact, clicker purists would probably prefer it. Not that it ever crossed my mind, but smooth thinking. I think there might be a slight risk of the dog thinking it needs first a Bow and then a Down command, but I'm sure you could smooth that out. Another, lazier, way to do it is simply lure the dog. Take your cookie and have dogs nose (ideally) follow your hand down between their front legs, towards the ground, and back a little. In the beginning, they may try to back up, but you want them to fold where they are standing, so you can have their butt standing almost up against a wall to prevent that, but I think I've only had to resort to that with one dog. The others just follow their nose. They can't easily reach that low, so they start having to bend a their elbows a little. Reward that. Then you ask for a little more downward action in the front (after a few reps). More rewards. Increase your criteria, you know the drill, until they only get rewarded when they go all the way down. Consider your hand/arm action because this translates really nicely into a hand signal for the down, so use your arm the way you want to be able to signal ultimately. In the beginning, obviously, you're doing a lot of bending over (one reason it's easier for me to teach it on the table to begin with but there's no guarantee they will generalize) Eventually, you add a verbal to it (but not before they are actually doing the full down, or you end up with Pandas & Sybils - evidently ) And ultimately, of course, you're standing up straight, no food in hand, and either giving a verbal or a signal (they should know both by now) for the down.
If you make a big game out of it some dogs really learn to love this. It is one of Mad's all time favorite things. After I had her solid on it, I changed the rules a bit, revved her up and then it was a release to tug. So she learned to drop quickly and happily because she knew the next step was FUN. When she wants to play with me now, she'll offer me a drop. Pretty funny. Sybil ain't there yet... What can I say?
Kristine |
I understand the sphinx down. If I tell Abi sit/down- bottom first, front next. If I tell Abi "down" -front first, bottom next.
 Do I now go straight to downs? Was there a reason I was taught sit/down? |
DandAbi wrote: I understand the sphinx down. If I tell Abi sit/down- bottom first, front next. If I tell Abi "down" -front first, bottom next.
Do I now go straight to downs? Was there a reason I was taught sit/down?May depend upon what kind of class you were in, what their target audience was (mainly people looking for basic manners/vrs those interested in competitive...?), what the instructor was most comfortable with, what levels s/he competes at (if any). what kind of dog the instructor has had (some times). Lots of reasons. For some people it's easier. If you put the dog in a sit first, the dog is already planted, so that's half the battle. And it's easier to teach a sit than a down (usually) because the down is a more vulnerable position for the dog, so some will actively resist it for a number of different reasons.
Bottom line, you got it. You're good to go! But just remember to never take it for granted and to reward it a heavily sporadically so it will feel like a very attractive/comfortable default position for her. Kristine |
Just remembered I had this visual from the rally trial at that '07 national. This is the beginning of a moving down (which should always be a sphinx down ideally). As I recall, the dog's butt did follow Jim Caplan and one of his boys. Love this pic.
Kristine |
here is panda in her sphinx down....no wonder she doesnt stay that way...with the balls and the turtle...sheesh a girl has a lot to do....
 |
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